UK pension rights for Thai widow.

[elliottm]

Hi, this is on behalf of a Thai widow in her 40s whose English husband died at 58 last year and who is resident in Thailand. They were together for around 15 years but had no children.

He had a company pension with a taxi firm that he had worked at for a long time and, without knowing details of the policy, could a widow expect to draw on company and government pensions before the husband's retirement age?

Also, would there normally be much documentation required beyond UK birth certificate/NI number/pension policy and MFA certified translation of Thai wedding and death certificates. She has his UK passport but is other UK documentation only available from his UK family or would she be able to apply for these to be re-issued in her own right?

Any other help welcome, thank you.

[happylarry]

Hi,

I can only tell you what I found out for my own wife.

When I die my wife can claim a one time payment of £2,000 from the govt., supposedly for burial purposes.

She cannot claim my govt pension as it dies with me.

She can claim 50 per cent of my private pension however as we are officially married.

I have been in touch with my pension company and registered my wife so she has no problems but I don't know how your friend will get on because obviously the pension company will do what they can to not pay it.

Ok having said all that I would suspect that, if the husband died before the pension was due then there probably isn't one to claim on anyway.

HL

[colinneil]

Hi,

I can only tell you what I found out for my own wife.

When I die my wife can claim a one time payment of £2,000 from the govt., supposedly for burial purposes.

She cannot claim my govt pension as it dies with me.

She can claim 50 per cent of my private pension however as we are officially married.

I have been in touch with my pension company and registered my wife so she has no problems but I don't know how your friend will get on because obviously the pension company will do what they can to not pay it.

Ok having said all that I would suspect that, if the husband died before the pension was due then there probably isn't one to claim on anyway.

HL

Your wife will not get the 2000 pounds from the UK government if she is Thai.

It was abolished on the 5th of april this year.

[Jip99]

Hi,

I can only tell you what I found out for my own wife.

When I die my wife can claim a one time payment of £2,000 from the govt., supposedly for burial purposes.

She cannot claim my govt pension as it dies with me.

She can claim 50 per cent of my private pension however as we are officially married.

I have been in touch with my pension company and registered my wife so she has no problems but I don't know how your friend will get on because obviously the pension company will do what they can to not pay it.

Ok having said all that I would suspect that, if the husband died before the pension was due then there probably isn't one to claim on anyway.

HL

Your wife will not get the 2000 pounds from the UK government if she is Thai.

It was abolished on the 5th of april this year.

Actually Colin (despite indications to that effect) they appear to have deferred that for another year.

The Bereavement Benefit remains at GBP 2,000 (but will change next year).

A 'pension company' will not "do what they can not to pay it", they have a legal obligation under the trustee rules. In my case my partner will get (automatically) 50% of my pension less 10% (ie she gets 45%) because she is 19 years younger than me. Perhaps it depends on the quality of your former employer as regards the exact amount paid..... 50% seems a standard starting point.

If the widow has kids (don't have to be yours) she will be eligible for Widowed Parents Allowance. (based on NI contributions ie 44 years gets maximum benefit). If no kids but over 45 she will be entitled to Bereavement Allowance for 12 months.

All these benefits are scheduled to change in 2017 to a single payment depending on whether there are children or not.They will only be payable in the UK.

[SantiSuk]

Private pensions all differ on widows rights and, even if the Pensiin Fund allows succeeding wives to take on widows pension benefits, the quantum of those benefits may depend on how the fund member elected at an earlier date. The deceased member may have disavowed widows benefits in favour of increased member benefits ( I think that is the case and that there are no regulations requiring widows to be protected but I may be wrong. I'm pretty sure most schemes do however insist on some level of widow protection. My own firms scheme does not permit succeeding wives to get widows benefits and the Trustees can only offer the explanation 'it was debated long and hard but that was the decision at the time and no there is no appeal'.

The only reliable way to find out in the absence of having access to the relevant Pension Fund rules is to contact the employers' pension administrator. I'm pretty sure that a deceased person's executor would be legally obliged to assist the legal widow in this matter and if the executor is being uncooperative for personal reasons you will need to get legal advice. Try Citizens Advice Bureau first or search for a relevant regulator online - you may get enough info to be able to write an appropriate frightener.

[prakhonchai nick]

As Jip 99, said the Bereavement Benefits appear to still be payable for another year. I am about to submit a claim for a widow today, so hopefully she will be eligible.

A word of caution when applying for BB. I have known of several applications being rejected initially by the DWP on the grounds that the wife is Thai and has never been to the UK. This is not correct. She IS eligible and you must not let yourself be fobbed off.

With regard to documentation needed, normally the wifes birth certificate, marriage certificate and death certificate (all translated where necessary) are sufficient. Where there are children, then the childs birth certificate is also needed. Note that many Thai wives for unknown reasons do not have birth certificates. In such cases, 2 official documents showing date of birth are usually acceptable. ie Dricing Licence, passport, ID card, house registration book Also be aware that many Thai women change their names , first name or surname, as they think their original names give them bad luck. Such change of name documents also need to be provided with translations.

[Expatwannabee]

Firstly, I claim very little expertise regarding pensions. However, I thought the widow getting 50% of her husbands pension depended, among other conditions, on the husband being in receipt of his pension. My understanding is that if he dies before he starts drawing it most pensions just pay out a lump sum equivalent to the pension pot that has accrued. Again I think most pensions have a provision for someone to be nominated as beneficiary but nominating someone is not compulsory. If no one is nominated it probably depends on whether there is a will. If no will then it goes through probate and is dealt with under the rules for intestacy, which I do not know. Probably being legally married would be a big factor. Also I do not know what the UK tax rules on this are. This post is not meant to be in any way definitive but rather to help in pointing out possible lines of further enquiry. Good luck.

[billrose]

https://www.gov.uk/bereavement-allowance

https://www.gov.uk/bereavement-payment

https://www.gov.uk/widowed-parents-allowance

You will need to provide original documents such as his Birth Certificate, Death Certificate, Marriage Certificate, plus details and certificates of any previous marriage. The forms available in the above links give details.

You will also need to supply the widow's Birth Certificate. If she doesn't have one, as is the case with many Thai ladies, she can get a certified document from the local Amphur giving details of her birth, which The Pension Service will accept.

Any Thai language documents do NOT need to be translated as The Pension Service have their own translators.

If in doubt about anything, call the International Pension Centre on 0044 - 2183847. They are very helpful.

Edited May 18, 2016 by billrose

[Jip99]

Firstly, I claim very little expertise regarding pensions. However, I thought the widow getting 50% of her husbands pension depended, among other conditions, on the husband being in receipt of his pension. My understanding is that if he dies before he starts drawing it most pensions just pay out a lump sum equivalent to the pension pot that has accrued. Again I think most pensions have a provision for someone to be nominated as beneficiary but nominating someone is not compulsory. If no one is nominated it probably depends on whether there is a will. If no will then it goes through probate and is dealt with under the rules for intestacy, which I do not know. Probably being legally married would be a big factor. Also I do not know what the UK tax rules on this are. This post is not meant to be in any way definitive but rather to help in pointing out possible lines of further enquiry. Good luck.

As far as I am aware on a widow or nominated partner can benefit from a private pension. It is not something that falls into the estate and you cannot bequeath the benefit to a third party. The scheme rules determine exactly what is payable to widows - and often children of the deceased.

I agree it is a different matter if the pension is not in pay and again scheme rules will be very specific about any lump sums. Not sure about this but a widow is still a widow whether the pension was drawn or not - that (in theory) would entitle her to the appropriate widows benefit.

[jesimps]

As Jip 99, said the Bereavement Benefits appear to still be payable for another year. I am about to submit a claim for a widow today, so hopefully she will be eligible.

A word of caution when applying for BB. I have known of several applications being rejected initially by the DWP on the grounds that the wife is Thai and has never been to the UK. This is not correct. She IS eligible and you must not let yourself be fobbed off.

With regard to documentation needed, normally the wifes birth certificate, marriage certificate and death certificate (all translated where necessary) are sufficient. Where there are children, then the childs birth certificate is also needed. Note that many Thai wives for unknown reasons do not have birth certificates. In such cases, 2 official documents showing date of birth are usually acceptable. ie Dricing Licence, passport, ID card, house registration book Also be aware that many Thai women change their names , first name or surname, as they think their original names give them bad luck. Such change of name documents also need to be provided with translations.

I'll vouch for that Nick, I was fobbed off for years, spent a fortune in phone calls etc, kept sending copies of their own rules and regs where it said I was entitled to it in black and white and still they wouldn't pay out. Eventually I asked you to help and you sorted it out for me in quick time.

I assume that this is the payment that's finishing next year? It was originally scheduled to be paid until 2020.

[rizla]

As Jip 99, said the Bereavement Benefits appear to still be payable for another year. I am about to submit a claim for a widow today, so hopefully she will be eligible.

A word of caution when applying for BB. I have known of several applications being rejected initially by the DWP on the grounds that the wife is Thai and has never been to the UK. This is not correct. She IS eligible and you must not let yourself be fobbed off.

With regard to documentation needed, normally the wifes birth certificate, marriage certificate and death certificate (all translated where necessary) are sufficient. Where there are children, then the childs birth certificate is also needed. Note that many Thai wives for unknown reasons do not have birth certificates. In such cases, 2 official documents showing date of birth are usually acceptable. ie Dricing Licence, passport, ID card, house registration book Also be aware that many Thai women change their names , first name or surname, as they think their original names give them bad luck. Such change of name documents also need to be provided with translations.

Would the marriage need to be officially registered in the UK as well as Thailand to qualify ?

[Jonmarleesco]

The company scheme would be dictated entirely by the scheme rules and the type of pension the husband elected to take: flat, increasing, minimum payment term, etc. I would have thought there would be a 50% widow's pension, but she/you would need to check with the scheme. And, yes, there will be documentation required to prove entitlement.

Died at 58; the government pension will be a non-starter.

[nongsangcity]

Hi,

I can only tell you what I found out for my own wife.

When I die my wife can claim a one time payment of £2,000 from the govt., supposedly for burial purposes.

She cannot claim my govt pension as it dies with me.

She can claim 50 per cent of my private pension however as we are officially married.

I have been in touch with my pension company and registered my wife so she has no problems but I don't know how your friend will get on because obviously the pension company will do what they can to not pay it.

Ok having said all that I would suspect that, if the husband died before the pension was due then there probably isn't one to claim on anyway.

HL

the Death Payment has been stopped April this year....and double and triple check your private pensions as my wife will only get 5 pounds a month for 5 years after my death..and i had to fight hard for that

[happylarry]

Hi,

I can only tell you what I found out for my own wife.

When I die my wife can claim a one time payment of £2,000 from the govt., supposedly for burial purposes.

She cannot claim my govt pension as it dies with me.

She can claim 50 per cent of my private pension however as we are officially married.

I have been in touch with my pension company and registered my wife so she has no problems but I don't know how your friend will get on because obviously the pension company will do what they can to not pay it.

Ok having said all that I would suspect that, if the husband died before the pension was due then there probably isn't one to claim on anyway.

HL

the Death Payment has been stopped April this year....and double and triple check your private pensions as my wife will only get 5 pounds a month for 5 years after my death..and i had to fight hard for that

As I said earlier I have registered my wife's name with my pension companies and have written letters from the companies with the details of the fifty % which are locked up in my safe for that incredibly sad day. I guess it all depends on what type of pension you have and what type of company you used whether they look after you or not.

HL

[Jip99]

Hi,

I can only tell you what I found out for my own wife.

When I die my wife can claim a one time payment of £2,000 from the govt., supposedly for burial purposes.

She cannot claim my govt pension as it dies with me.

She can claim 50 per cent of my private pension however as we are officially married.

I have been in touch with my pension company and registered my wife so she has no problems but I don't know how your friend will get on because obviously the pension company will do what they can to not pay it.

Ok having said all that I would suspect that, if the husband died before the pension was due then there probably isn't one to claim on anyway.

HL

the Death Payment has been stopped April this year....and double and triple check your private pensions as my wife will only get 5 pounds a month for 5 years after my death..and i had to fight hard for that

The Bereavement Payment has not been stopped.

[Jip99]

As Jip 99, said the Bereavement Benefits appear to still be payable for another year. I am about to submit a claim for a widow today, so hopefully she will be eligible.

A word of caution when applying for BB. I have known of several applications being rejected initially by the DWP on the grounds that the wife is Thai and has never been to the UK. This is not correct. She IS eligible and you must not let yourself be fobbed off.

With regard to documentation needed, normally the wifes birth certificate, marriage certificate and death certificate (all translated where necessary) are sufficient. Where there are children, then the childs birth certificate is also needed. Note that many Thai wives for unknown reasons do not have birth certificates. In such cases, 2 official documents showing date of birth are usually acceptable. ie Dricing Licence, passport, ID card, house registration book Also be aware that many Thai women change their names , first name or surname, as they think their original names give them bad luck. Such change of name documents also need to be provided with translations.

Would the marriage need to be officially registered in the UK as well as Thailand to qualify ?

I don't believe so. A legal Thai marriage is recognised all around the world and certified copies of the Thai marriage certificate have been accepted by DWP and private pension providers.

[Farmer1956]

It will depend on the terms of the company pension. Usually there is a provision for a pay out.

If there is any paperwork this should set it out. Otherwise as the pension number is available

contacting the company should be the first step. They will probably need a copy of the marriage

certificate, death certificate, probably in English. The pay out will be dependent on whether the

husband was drawing the pension, or if it was deferred. If it was current and he was getting his

pension this may be a small lump sum.

[Waterloo]

Firstly, I claim very little expertise regarding pensions. However, I thought the widow getting 50% of her husbands pension depended, among other conditions, on the husband being in receipt of his pension. My understanding is that if he dies before he starts drawing it most pensions just pay out a lump sum equivalent to the pension pot that has accrued. Again I think most pensions have a provision for someone to be nominated as beneficiary but nominating someone is not compulsory. If no one is nominated it probably depends on whether there is a will. If no will then it goes through probate and is dealt with under the rules for intestacy, which I do not know. Probably being legally married would be a big factor. Also I do not know what the UK tax rules on this are. This post is not meant to be in any way definitive but rather to help in pointing out possible lines of further enquiry. Good luck.

In the event of my sad demise before reaching retirement age both of the schemes I am currently in will pay out the pension pot to my wife, I believe this is pretty standard.

[johnatong]

Many problems are caused by those who fail to inform the DWP and Pension provider of their civil status whilst still alive.

We have just been through a 'nightmare' trying to persuade UK bureaucrats that a Thai woman was indeed the wife of a deceased UK citizen.

Everything it seemed was against us including the widows three(3) name changes since the date of her marriage.

The DWP refused her but the deceased husbands occupational pension provider eventually agreed to provide a 'survivors' pension.

I would urge everyone to ensure that relevant authorities/pension providers are aware of any marriage and to provide relevant documentation that can be kept with your file(s) in the UK (ie certified copies of Marriage Cert, ID card and Passport etc)

Finally please impress on your lady the importance of not changing her name "for luck"

Hope this is helpful.