Thai man releases video about living off the grid in America’s snowy mountains

[White Christmas13]

Beautiful house, on a great plot of land.

Will call on PunPun to see if they have some ideas how to keep the house cool so we can go (almost) off grid here as well.

And why you at it ask him how we can purchase beautiful plot of land in Thailand to build a house

[Fookhaht]

You can see /visit similar structures throughout the midwestern states, if you know where to look. Earthern homes back in the land runs of the late 1800's were the norm and were referred to as dugouts, they also lived in sod houses where the lower part was below ground level. There are a lot of homes that due to lay of land are completely underground, with only the entry way door being visable. Not puting the man down for his accomp[lishment, but he may have built as per plans, instructions, suggestions,etc of many who have gone down this road before him.

hope he has a good life in his home.

You don't have to put the man down if you had checked out his organization's website, which gives due credit to the pioneers of this technique.

Secondly, wind gusts IN EXCESS of 200 MILES per hour are recorded by the National Park Service in Rocky Mountain National Park. Google it, you lazy armchair weathermen.

Thirdly, I have traveled throughout the Rockies numerous times. Plenty of basins at 10,000 feet or HIGHER.

"Ignorance" is the operative word for the cynical posts which saturate this thread.

"Skepticism" is the operative word; I and others think the article misrepresents the "off the grid" lifestyle.

"Secondly, wind gusts IN EXCESS of 200 MILES per hour are recorded by the National Park Service in Rocky Mountain National Park. Google it, you lazy armchair weathermen."

I Googled it. I found "Wind studies in the park in the 1970s and 1980s recorded wind gusts in excess of 200 miles an hour (mph), and average daily wind speeds of 65 mph at Longs Peak in the winter." https://www.nps.gov/romo/wind.htm Longs Peak is over 14000 feet, and winds at the mountain peaks are generally much stronger than in the basins below. My skepticism about 200 mph winds where this man lives remains.

I may have been the first to express skepticism about flat areas above 10000 feet, but conceded that they may exist. Apparently they do. However I remain skeptical about the description of this man's "off the grid" lifestyle.

The "locally sourced lumber" clearly wasn't from this barren area, at what cost was it brought in? Does he live without electrical power, or have a power source? If he has some kind of electrical power source, what was the cost of providing it? Does anyone really believe he's raising cattle and planting potatoes? If not, then how does he feed himself? Where does his craft beer and wine come from?

This is clearly a man with a significant outside source of income who is bringing in provisions and luxury items. This isn't living off the grid.

A person, couple, or group of people in good health (or unconcerned about their health) might be able to live in isolation without interacting with, or contributing to, the outside world. That would be truly off the grid. It would be a hard life and when they died no one would notice. It would be irresponsible, and possibly criminally negligent, to raise kids in this manner. This article completely misrepresents off the grid living.

The poster makes assumptions from the video script and excerpts half-quotes to support his skeptic arguments. He extrapolates the information way beyond the assertions of the video to make his points.

It renders credible discussion impossible. Don't have any more time for this crap.

Reminds me of a quotation and a cartoon...

"Mind's made up. Don't confuse me with the facts."

ImageUploadedByThaivisa Connect1464512834.488632.jpg

ated that the operative word is ignorance. Asking questions is a sign of intellectual curiosity, accepting a questionable article without question is a sign of ignorance.

. Not just ANY questions. Your questions are based on erroneous assumptions from the video.

Sorry, not always a sign of intellectual curiosity--in your case, sloppy reasoning, further clouded by an axe to grind.

[heybruce]

"Skepticism" is the operative word; I and others think the article misrepresents the "off the grid" lifestyle.

"Secondly, wind gusts IN EXCESS of 200 MILES per hour are recorded by the National Park Service in Rocky Mountain National Park. Google it, you lazy armchair weathermen."

I Googled it. I found "Wind studies in the park in the 1970s and 1980s recorded wind gusts in excess of 200 miles an hour (mph), and average daily wind speeds of 65 mph at Longs Peak in the winter." https://www.nps.gov/romo/wind.htm Longs Peak is over 14000 feet, and winds at the mountain peaks are generally much stronger than in the basins below. My skepticism about 200 mph winds where this man lives remains.

I may have been the first to express skepticism about flat areas above 10000 feet, but conceded that they may exist. Apparently they do. However I remain skeptical about the description of this man's "off the grid" lifestyle.

The "locally sourced lumber" clearly wasn't from this barren area, at what cost was it brought in? Does he live without electrical power, or have a power source? If he has some kind of electrical power source, what was the cost of providing it? Does anyone really believe he's raising cattle and planting potatoes? If not, then how does he feed himself? Where does his craft beer and wine come from?

This is clearly a man with a significant outside source of income who is bringing in provisions and luxury items. This isn't living off the grid.

A person, couple, or group of people in good health (or unconcerned about their health) might be able to live in isolation without interacting with, or contributing to, the outside world. That would be truly off the grid. It would be a hard life and when they died no one would notice. It would be irresponsible, and possibly criminally negligent, to raise kids in this manner. This article completely misrepresents off the grid living.

The poster makes assumptions from the video script and excerpts half-quotes to support his skeptic arguments. He extrapolates the information way beyond the assertions of the video to make his points.

It renders credible discussion impossible. Don't have any more time for this crap.

Reminds me of a quotation and a cartoon...

"Mind's made up. Don't confuse me with the facts."

ImageUploadedByThaivisa Connect1464512834.488632.jpg

ated that the operative word is ignorance. Asking questions is a sign of intellectual curiosity, accepting a questionable article without question is a sign of ignorance.

. Not just ANY questions. Your questions are based on erroneous assumptions from the video.

Sorry, not always a sign of intellectual curiosity--in your case, sloppy reasoning, further clouded by an axe to grind.

My questions were about sustainable living on a remote patch of ground with no apparent resources. My assumption was that this man had outside resources for building the house and outside income to sustain himself. My assumption was confirmed by those who researched the man.

Rather than admit error, you are making broad, general accusations against me unsupported by anything. You claim I'm wrong about something, but you won't say what. You claim I have an axe to grind, which is news to me. You're not coming across as overly intelligent, just stubborn and insecure.

Edited May 29, 2016 by heybruce

[aneliane]

Could he come back to BKK and make conferences to explain why it is damn stupid to build expensive non isolated, high rises when BKK is sinking under their weight?

Could he explain to Thai people they would not have to spend so much money in aircon if they did not use such crappy materials?

Earth is free

Earth is the best heat- cold- isolation

Earth is very easy to use to build a house.

Earth is the best wau to protect from floods , earthquakes and bombs.

[Fookhaht]

"Skepticism" is the operative word; I and others think the article misrepresents the "off the grid" lifestyle.

"Secondly, wind gusts IN EXCESS of 200 MILES per hour are recorded by the National Park Service in Rocky Mountain National Park. Google it, you lazy armchair weathermen."

I Googled it. I found "Wind studies in the park in the 1970s and 1980s recorded wind gusts in excess of 200 miles an hour (mph), and average daily wind speeds of 65 mph at Longs Peak in the winter." https://www.nps.gov/romo/wind.htm Longs Peak is over 14000 feet, and winds at the mountain peaks are generally much stronger than in the basins below. My skepticism about 200 mph winds where this man lives remains.

I may have been the first to express skepticism about flat areas above 10000 feet, but conceded that they may exist. Apparently they do. However I remain skeptical about the description of this man's "off the grid" lifestyle.

The "locally sourced lumber" clearly wasn't from this barren area, at what cost was it brought in? Does he live without electrical power, or have a power source? If he has some kind of electrical power source, what was the cost of providing it? Does anyone really believe he's raising cattle and planting potatoes? If not, then how does he feed himself? Where does his craft beer and wine come from?

This is clearly a man with a significant outside source of income who is bringing in provisions and luxury items. This isn't living off the grid.

A person, couple, or group of people in good health (or unconcerned about their health) might be able to live in isolation without interacting with, or contributing to, the outside world. That would be truly off the grid. It would be a hard life and when they died no one would notice. It would be irresponsible, and possibly criminally negligent, to raise kids in this manner. This article completely misrepresents off the grid living.

The poster makes assumptions from the video script and excerpts half-quotes to support his skeptic arguments. He extrapolates the information way beyond the assertions of the video to make his points.

It renders credible discussion impossible. Don't have any more time for this crap.

Reminds me of a quotation and a cartoon...

"Mind's made up. Don't confuse me with the facts."

ImageUploadedByThaivisa Connect1464512834.488632.jpg

ated that the operative word is ignorance. Asking questions is a sign of intellectual curiosity, accepting a questionable article without question is a sign of ignorance.

. Not just ANY questions. Your questions are based on erroneous assumptions from the video.

Sorry, not always a sign of intellectual curiosity--in your case, sloppy reasoning, further clouded by an axe to grind.

My questions were about sustainable living on a remote patch of ground with no apparent resources. My assumption was that this man had outside resources for building the house and outside income to sustain himself. My assumption was confirmed by those who researched the man.

Rather than admit error, you are making broad, general accusations against me unsupported by anything. You claim I'm wrong about something, but you won't say what. You claim I have an axe to grind, which is news to me. You're not coming across as overly intelligent, just stubborn and insecure.

Sorry, but you're coming across as a pseudo-intellectual who's trying to create a mountain out of a molehill that was not there in the first place. You're trying to bait others into further argument but we recognize it's futile given your faulty m.o.

[Fookhaht]

Could he explain to Thai people they would not have to spend so much money in aircon if they did not use such crappy materials?

Or if they simply closed the doors?

[JLCrab]

As mentioned I was familiar with the North Park Colorado Basin which -- if I chose to visit in the winter -- I either had to fly in by private airplane or be prepared to hunker down if a blizzard closed Cameron Pass for a few days at 10,276 ft (3,132 m) elevation. I don't see, unless there is something going on that has not been mentioned, that anyone could endure a winter in a passive solar house as described at that altitude.

Edited May 29, 2016 by JLCrab

[Fookhaht]

As mentioned I was familiar with the North Park Colorado Basin which -- if I chose to visit in the winter -- I either had to fly in by private airplane or be prepared to hunker down if a blizzard closed Cameron Pass for a few days at 10,276 ft (3,132 m) elevation. I don't see, unless there is something going on that has not been mentioned, that anyone could endure a winter in a passive solar house as described at that altitude.

There IS something else going on here, and it was clearly shown.

Not entirely passive.

-Saw the two wood stoves for heating? Don't know if you ever have used these air-tight wood stoves, but their efficiency and output are impressive. There were two of them, and they could easily and comfortably heat a structure of that size under those conditions. A major supplemental source of heat to the passive solar system.

-Saw what appeared to be one or two gas cooking stoves?

-Saw the wind generator?

-Just checking--saw the video?

Edited May 29, 2016 by Fookhaht

[JLCrab]

Yes -- and I also read that they only spend 3 months of the year there as of the 2011 article most likely not in the dead of winter.

Where I used to stay in North Park they had a wood pile for the winter bigger than his entire house. All I saw in the video was a woodpile at 1:03 that would last a few hours.

Edited May 29, 2016 by JLCrab

[canopy]

Earth is free

Earth is the best heat- cold- isolation

Earth is very easy to use to build a house

Earth is the best wau to protect from floods , earthquakes and bombs.

Earth is free

Earth is free and an on-site material and that's a fantastic attribute for sure. But note it usually needs mixed with other things that aren't free like sand and straw.

Earth is the best heat- cold- isolation

On the contrary If you compare the r-value of different building materials you will find earth is one of the very worst. Big heavy earth walls also create a thermal mass that absorbs and shift heat into the structure later in the day which is great for a desert climate but bad in the tropics where you don't want extra heat added to your house. Thus earth use should be minimized in favor of lighter materials like straw if a comfortable house is intended.

Earth is very easy to use to build a house

Wet earth is extremely heavy and many metric tons of it need mixed and stacked by hand with no machinery to help. It's so difficult that you usually see a large number of people build just a very tiny "eco" house. Compare that to normal houses where lightweight building blocks are delivered on neat pallets next to your build; that is easy. Building with earth is not.

Earth is the best way to protect from floods , earthquakes and bombs.

It is unclear the basis for these assertions relative to the normal way Thai's build houses. Earth doesn't take water well so earthen walls always start well above the ground. Fastening the roof from blowing off earthen walls is challenging.

[Fookhaht]

Yes -- and I also read that they only spend 3 months of the year there as of the 2011 article most likely not in the dead of winter.

One serious problem I wondered about was snow depths at that altitude in the middle of the winter. That, combined with a flat roof and rather low profile of the house. Would think it would be nearly impossible just to keep up with snow removal by manual labor for egress and ingress. Would make sense that the place was boarded up for 9 months.

[JLCrab]

So even if not the Pun Pun crew themselves -- who would most likely be back in Thailand -- and since the building seems to have been completed now for several years, it would be interesting to read of the experience of anyone who lived in that the house during the winter months from December to March with the off-the-grid support as described.

The topic title Thai man releases video about living off the grid in America’s snowy mountains nor any of the articles certainly do not suggest that he would only be living off the grid for a couple of months per year.

Edited May 30, 2016 by JLCrab

[VincentRJ]

The "locally sourced lumber" clearly wasn't from this barren area, at what cost was it brought in? Does he live without electrical power, or have a power source? If he has some kind of electrical power source, what was the cost of providing it? Does anyone really believe he's raising cattle and planting potatoes? If not, then how does he feed himself? Where does his craft beer and wine come from?

My questions were about sustainable living on a remote patch of ground with no apparent resources. My assumption was that this man had outside resources for building the house and outside income to sustain himself. My assumption was confirmed by those who researched the man.

Possibly all these questions will be answered in a future video. Building the house was the first stage. The processes of creating sustainable agriculture on an apparently barren piece of land takes time. Plants grow slowly.

There are many ways of improving the fertility of land. If there's a shortage of average rainfall, for example, one can effectively double the rainfall on parts of the land by creating a slope and using perhaps just 1/3rd of of the bottom part of the slope, which is flattened out, to grow vegetables or fruit trees. The run-off, whenever it rains, increases the amount of water available to the planted area.

There are also various types of exotic plants that can be introduced, which might thrive in those conditions at that elevation. If you have ever been to New Zealand you might have noticed a problem they have over there with certain varieties of pine trees that were introduced from Canada and Europe about 100 years ago. The trees flourish in an apparently otherwise barren landscape, causing protests from farmers who want land for grazing sheep and cattle.

In fact, at the beginning of this video one gets a brief view of the surrounding hills covered in trees, probably some sort of pine tree. Whether or not those trees are on Jon Jandai's property, is not clear, but I suspect the land where is his house is built was once cleared of trees at some time in the past.

The general name often given to such sustainable and natural methods of agriculture, is Permaculture. Here is the Wikipedia link, if you're interested.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permaculture

By the way, solar panels for the generation of electricity, are very affordable nowadays. The main cost is for the storage batteries, but those are gradually becoming more efficient and more affordable as technology progresses, and also taking government subsidies into account. In Australia, the initial cost of installing such a system can pay for itself within a few years.

Edited May 30, 2016 by VincentRJ

[JLCrab]

The house seems to have been finished per one of the linked articles for about 5 years now.

[VincentRJ]

The house seems to have been finished per one of the linked articles for about 5 years now.

Don't be deluded by appearances. What is the date of the current video, which is the current topic?

If it's 5 years after the construction of the house was completed, then that implies that the owner has been very slack in developing the agricultural potential of his property.

[heybruce]

"Skepticism" is the operative word; I and others think the article misrepresents the "off the grid" lifestyle.

"Secondly, wind gusts IN EXCESS of 200 MILES per hour are recorded by the National Park Service in Rocky Mountain National Park. Google it, you lazy armchair weathermen."

I Googled it. I found "Wind studies in the park in the 1970s and 1980s recorded wind gusts in excess of 200 miles an hour (mph), and average daily wind speeds of 65 mph at Longs Peak in the winter." https://www.nps.gov/romo/wind.htm Longs Peak is over 14000 feet, and winds at the mountain peaks are generally much stronger than in the basins below. My skepticism about 200 mph winds where this man lives remains.

I may have been the first to express skepticism about flat areas above 10000 feet, but conceded that they may exist. Apparently they do. However I remain skeptical about the description of this man's "off the grid" lifestyle.

The "locally sourced lumber" clearly wasn't from this barren area, at what cost was it brought in? Does he live without electrical power, or have a power source? If he has some kind of electrical power source, what was the cost of providing it? Does anyone really believe he's raising cattle and planting potatoes? If not, then how does he feed himself? Where does his craft beer and wine come from?

This is clearly a man with a significant outside source of income who is bringing in provisions and luxury items. This isn't living off the grid.

A person, couple, or group of people in good health (or unconcerned about their health) might be able to live in isolation without interacting with, or contributing to, the outside world. That would be truly off the grid. It would be a hard life and when they died no one would notice. It would be irresponsible, and possibly criminally negligent, to raise kids in this manner. This article completely misrepresents off the grid living.

The poster makes assumptions from the video script and excerpts half-quotes to support his skeptic arguments. He extrapolates the information way beyond the assertions of the video to make his points.

It renders credible discussion impossible. Don't have any more time for this crap.

Reminds me of a quotation and a cartoon...

"Mind's made up. Don't confuse me with the facts."

ImageUploadedByThaivisa Connect1464512834.488632.jpg

ated that the operative word is ignorance. Asking questions is a sign of intellectual curiosity, accepting a questionable article without question is a sign of ignorance.

. Not just ANY questions. Your questions are based on erroneous assumptions from the video.

Sorry, not always a sign of intellectual curiosity--in your case, sloppy reasoning, further clouded by an axe to grind.

My questions were about sustainable living on a remote patch of ground with no apparent resources. My assumption was that this man had outside resources for building the house and outside income to sustain himself. My assumption was confirmed by those who researched the man.

Rather than admit error, you are making broad, general accusations against me unsupported by anything. You claim I'm wrong about something, but you won't say what. You claim I have an axe to grind, which is news to me. You're not coming across as overly intelligent, just stubborn and insecure.

Sorry, but you're coming across as a pseudo-intellectual who's trying to create a mountain out of a molehill that was not there in the first place. You're trying to bait others into further argument but we recognize it's futile given your faulty m.o.

Once again, you fail to specify what I have posted that is wrong, or what axe I have to grind.

I asked legitimate questions about the practicality of living off the grid. We have now learned that this person is only vacationing off the grid. I assume he brings in the supplies he needs when he returns to this house, which isn't living off the grid.

You respond with insults, initially suggesting that everyone who questioned the article is ignorant. How do you think that makes you look?

[heybruce]

The "locally sourced lumber" clearly wasn't from this barren area, at what cost was it brought in? Does he live without electrical power, or have a power source? If he has some kind of electrical power source, what was the cost of providing it? Does anyone really believe he's raising cattle and planting potatoes? If not, then how does he feed himself? Where does his craft beer and wine come from?

My questions were about sustainable living on a remote patch of ground with no apparent resources. My assumption was that this man had outside resources for building the house and outside income to sustain himself. My assumption was confirmed by those who researched the man.

Possibly all these questions will be answered in a future video. Building the house was the first stage. The processes of creating sustainable agriculture on an apparently barren piece of land takes time. Plants grow slowly.

There are many ways of improving the fertility of land. If there's a shortage of average rainfall, for example, one can effectively double the rainfall on parts of the land by creating a slope and using perhaps just 1/3rd of of the bottom part of the slope, which is flattened out, to grow vegetables or fruit trees. The run-off, whenever it rains, increases the amount of water available to the planted area.

There are also various types of exotic plants that can be introduced, which might thrive in those conditions at that elevation. If you have ever been to New Zealand you might have noticed a problem they have over there with certain varieties of pine trees that were introduced from Canada and Europe about 100 years ago. The trees flourish in an apparently otherwise barren landscape, causing protests from farmers who want land for grazing sheep and cattle.

In fact, at the beginning of this video one gets a brief view of the surrounding hills covered in trees, probably some sort of pine tree. Whether or not those trees are on Jon Jandai's property, is not clear, but I suspect the land where is his house is built was once cleared of trees at some time in the past.

The general name often given to such sustainable and natural methods of agriculture, is Permaculture. Here is the Wikipedia link, if you're interested.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permaculture

By the way, solar panels for the generation of electricity, are very affordable nowadays. The main cost is for the storage batteries, but those are gradually becoming more efficient and more affordable as technology progresses, and also taking government subsidies into account. In Australia, the initial cost of installing such a system can pay for itself within a few years.

Has Jon Jandai established Permaculture agriculture and is now surviving on it? Quite an accomplishment for someone who is only there three months out of the year.

I never questioned the viability of solar power once the system is in place, in fact I think people living in easily accessible locations should look into it. I questioned the cost of putting the system in place in a remote location. Batteries are heavy, and moving them to a remote, high altitude location is difficult.

The article suggests that living off the grid in a remote location is easy and affordable, a life of comfort and craft beer. That is what I have been questioning.

Edited May 30, 2016 by heybruce

[Fookhaht]

"Skepticism" is the operative word; I and others think the article misrepresents the "off the grid" lifestyle.

"Secondly, wind gusts IN EXCESS of 200 MILES per hour are recorded by the National Park Service in Rocky Mountain National Park. Google it, you lazy armchair weathermen."

I Googled it. I found "Wind studies in the park in the 1970s and 1980s recorded wind gusts in excess of 200 miles an hour (mph), and average daily wind speeds of 65 mph at Longs Peak in the winter." https://www.nps.gov/romo/wind.htm Longs Peak is over 14000 feet, and winds at the mountain peaks are generally much stronger than in the basins below. My skepticism about 200 mph winds where this man lives remains.

I may have been the first to express skepticism about flat areas above 10000 feet, but conceded that they may exist. Apparently they do. However I remain skeptical about the description of this man's "off the grid" lifestyle.

The "locally sourced lumber" clearly wasn't from this barren area, at what cost was it brought in? Does he live without electrical power, or have a power source? If he has some kind of electrical power source, what was the cost of providing it? Does anyone really believe he's raising cattle and planting potatoes? If not, then how does he feed himself? Where does his craft beer and wine come from?

This is clearly a man with a significant outside source of income who is bringing in provisions and luxury items. This isn't living off the grid.

A person, couple, or group of people in good health (or unconcerned about their health) might be able to live in isolation without interacting with, or contributing to, the outside world. That would be truly off the grid. It would be a hard life and when they died no one would notice. It would be irresponsible, and possibly criminally negligent, to raise kids in this manner. This article completely misrepresents off the grid living.

The poster makes assumptions from the video script and excerpts half-quotes to support his skeptic arguments. He extrapolates the information way beyond the assertions of the video to make his points.

It renders credible discussion impossible. Don't have any more time for this crap.

Reminds me of a quotation and a cartoon...

"Mind's made up. Don't confuse me with the facts."

ImageUploadedByThaivisa Connect1464512834.488632.jpg

ated that the operative word is ignorance. Asking questions is a sign of intellectual curiosity, accepting a questionable article without question is a sign of ignorance.

. Not just ANY questions. Your questions are based on erroneous assumptions from the video.

Sorry, not always a sign of intellectual curiosity--in your case, sloppy reasoning, further clouded by an axe to grind.

My questions were about sustainable living on a remote patch of ground with no apparent resources. My assumption was that this man had outside resources for building the house and outside income to sustain himself. My assumption was confirmed by those who researched the man.

Rather than admit error, you are making broad, general accusations against me unsupported by anything. You claim I'm wrong about something, but you won't say what. You claim I have an axe to grind, which is news to me. You're not coming across as overly intelligent, just stubborn and insecure.

Sorry, but you're coming across as a pseudo-intellectual who's trying to create a mountain out of a molehill that was not there in the first place. You're trying to bait others into further argument but we recognize it's futile given your faulty m.o.

Once again, you fail to specify what I have posted that is wrong, or what axe I have to grind.

I asked legitimate questions about the practicality of living off the grid. We have now learned that this person is only vacationing off the grid. I assume he brings in the supplies he needs when he returns to this house, which isn't living off the grid.

You respond with insults, initially suggesting that everyone who questioned the article is ignorant. How do you think that makes you look?

Jai yen dude. Just exposing your weak and faulty premises. Some folks can't handle that. Have a cold one and put up your feet.

[JLCrab]

The house seems to have been finished per one of the linked articles for about 5 years now.

Don't be deluded by appearances. What is the date of the current video, which is the current topic?

If it's 5 years after the construction of the house was completed, then that implies that the owner has been very slack in developing the agricultural potential of his property.

http://www.americabycycle.com/2011/10/12/building-the-jefferson-earthship/

BTW if one were to heat a house like this at 10,000 feet in Colorado with wood-burning stoves for the winter it might require something like this (from Vermont)

Edited May 30, 2016 by JLCrab

[heybruce]

"Skepticism" is the operative word; I and others think the article misrepresents the "off the grid" lifestyle.

"Secondly, wind gusts IN EXCESS of 200 MILES per hour are recorded by the National Park Service in Rocky Mountain National Park. Google it, you lazy armchair weathermen."

I Googled it. I found "Wind studies in the park in the 1970s and 1980s recorded wind gusts in excess of 200 miles an hour (mph), and average daily wind speeds of 65 mph at Longs Peak in the winter." https://www.nps.gov/romo/wind.htm Longs Peak is over 14000 feet, and winds at the mountain peaks are generally much stronger than in the basins below. My skepticism about 200 mph winds where this man lives remains.

I may have been the first to express skepticism about flat areas above 10000 feet, but conceded that they may exist. Apparently they do. However I remain skeptical about the description of this man's "off the grid" lifestyle.

The "locally sourced lumber" clearly wasn't from this barren area, at what cost was it brought in? Does he live without electrical power, or have a power source? If he has some kind of electrical power source, what was the cost of providing it? Does anyone really believe he's raising cattle and planting potatoes? If not, then how does he feed himself? Where does his craft beer and wine come from?

This is clearly a man with a significant outside source of income who is bringing in provisions and luxury items. This isn't living off the grid.

A person, couple, or group of people in good health (or unconcerned about their health) might be able to live in isolation without interacting with, or contributing to, the outside world. That would be truly off the grid. It would be a hard life and when they died no one would notice. It would be irresponsible, and possibly criminally negligent, to raise kids in this manner. This article completely misrepresents off the grid living.

The poster makes assumptions from the video script and excerpts half-quotes to support his skeptic arguments. He extrapolates the information way beyond the assertions of the video to make his points.

It renders credible discussion impossible. Don't have any more time for this crap.

Reminds me of a quotation and a cartoon...

"Mind's made up. Don't confuse me with the facts."

ImageUploadedByThaivisa Connect1464512834.488632.jpg

ated that the operative word is ignorance. Asking questions is a sign of intellectual curiosity, accepting a questionable article without question is a sign of ignorance.

. Not just ANY questions. Your questions are based on erroneous assumptions from the video.

Sorry, not always a sign of intellectual curiosity--in your case, sloppy reasoning, further clouded by an axe to grind.

My questions were about sustainable living on a remote patch of ground with no apparent resources. My assumption was that this man had outside resources for building the house and outside income to sustain himself. My assumption was confirmed by those who researched the man.

Rather than admit error, you are making broad, general accusations against me unsupported by anything. You claim I'm wrong about something, but you won't say what. You claim I have an axe to grind, which is news to me. You're not coming across as overly intelligent, just stubborn and insecure.

Sorry, but you're coming across as a pseudo-intellectual who's trying to create a mountain out of a molehill that was not there in the first place. You're trying to bait others into further argument but we recognize it's futile given your faulty m.o.

Once again, you fail to specify what I have posted that is wrong, or what axe I have to grind.

I asked legitimate questions about the practicality of living off the grid. We have now learned that this person is only vacationing off the grid. I assume he brings in the supplies he needs when he returns to this house, which isn't living off the grid.

You respond with insults, initially suggesting that everyone who questioned the article is ignorant. How do you think that makes you look?

Jai yen dude. Just exposing your weak and faulty premises. Some folks can't handle that. Have a cold one and put up your feet.

"Just exposing your weak and faulty premises."

No you haven't. You're replies have been insults unsubstantiated by facts. Twice I've asked you for specifics and twice your replies have been general insults.

Before you reply with more unsubstantiated insults, consider the obvious: Your general, off-topic insults are being met with on-topic reminders of the inaccuracies and omissions of the OP. The man isn't living off the grid, he is vacationing off the grid, and obvious, legitimate questions about the cost and sustainability of this lifestyle are not addressed.

If your objective is to defend the OP, you should either reply with something of substance, or not reply at all. More general insults will allow me to once again remind readers that the article does not reflect reality.

Edited May 30, 2016 by heybruce

[JLCrab]

So the Colorado South Park Basin property was bought minimum 9 years ago:

"Build With Us" Natural Building Project
July 12 - 15, 2007
Jefferson, Colorado

Acclaimed Thai organic farmer/earthen builder Jon Jandai and Coloradoan Peggy Reents will teach various natural building techniques using local, readily available materials. They have been leaders in the natural building movement in Thailand for years and are now starting a sustainable living learning center and home in Jefferson, Colorado.

[VincentRJ]

The "locally sourced lumber" clearly wasn't from this barren area, at what cost was it brought in? Does he live without electrical power, or have a power source? If he has some kind of electrical power source, what was the cost of providing it? Does anyone really believe he's raising cattle and planting potatoes? If not, then how does he feed himself? Where does his craft beer and wine come from?

My questions were about sustainable living on a remote patch of ground with no apparent resources. My assumption was that this man had outside resources for building the house and outside income to sustain himself. My assumption was confirmed by those who researched the man.

Possibly all these questions will be answered in a future video. Building the house was the first stage. The processes of creating sustainable agriculture on an apparently barren piece of land takes time. Plants grow slowly.

There are many ways of improving the fertility of land. If there's a shortage of average rainfall, for example, one can effectively double the rainfall on parts of the land by creating a slope and using perhaps just 1/3rd of of the bottom part of the slope, which is flattened out, to grow vegetables or fruit trees. The run-off, whenever it rains, increases the amount of water available to the planted area.

There are also various types of exotic plants that can be introduced, which might thrive in those conditions at that elevation. If you have ever been to New Zealand you might have noticed a problem they have over there with certain varieties of pine trees that were introduced from Canada and Europe about 100 years ago. The trees flourish in an apparently otherwise barren landscape, causing protests from farmers who want land for grazing sheep and cattle.

In fact, at the beginning of this video one gets a brief view of the surrounding hills covered in trees, probably some sort of pine tree. Whether or not those trees are on Jon Jandai's property, is not clear, but I suspect the land where is his house is built was once cleared of trees at some time in the past.

The general name often given to such sustainable and natural methods of agriculture, is Permaculture. Here is the Wikipedia link, if you're interested.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permaculture

By the way, solar panels for the generation of electricity, are very affordable nowadays. The main cost is for the storage batteries, but those are gradually becoming more efficient and more affordable as technology progresses, and also taking government subsidies into account. In Australia, the initial cost of installing such a system can pay for itself within a few years.

The article suggests that living off the grid in a remote location is easy and affordable, a life of comfort and craft beer. That is what I have been questioning.

Brewing your own beer is easy. Have you never tried it?

What is affordable is a relative term. The main message I got from this video is that building a house in this manner, using one's own labour and the free labour of friends, and using existing, locally available materials, and second-hand and discarded materials, is much more affordable than buying a ready-built conventional house on a small plot of land in the city or suburbs.

Jon Jandai mentions that such a house would be a quarter or a fifth of the cost of a conventional house built by professional builders. I believe that would be a realistic estimate, based upon my own experience in Australia.

For the same price that a small block of land in the suburbs would cost, one could probably buy 20 or 50 acres of land in a remote area, off the grid. Depending of the size of the house one needs, it could cost, say, $300,000 if built by professional builders in the suburbs.

If built in the manner shown by Jon Jandai, the same size house might cost, say, $70,000. If that's the case, which I believe is realistic, it's understood that one has to already have the $70,000, and the money to buy the land, before one can start on the project.

One assumes that the area is accessible by 4WD vehicles, but the video doesn't go into such details. However, the tyres supposedly came from a near-by dump which presumably has access by some sort of dirt road.

Once the house has been built, then one can relax and enjoy one's home-brewed beer.

Jon Jandai's personal wealth is a separate issue. For all I know he could afford to buy half a dozen houses in the city. That's not the point. The point is, if a person has only $200,000, say, which is not sufficient buy a block of land in the suburbs and have a large house built on it by a professional builder, without borrowing money which might be impossible if one is unemployed, then Jon Jandai's approach, as shown in the video, is a realistic option for anyone who might like that sort of lifestyle and who refuses to get into debt.

[JLCrab]

To heck with the beer, possession of up to one ounce of marijuana is legal in Colorado.

For all their self-sufficiency and organic gardening in Thailand you would think after almost 10 years on the Colorado property they could set up a small greenhouse hydroponic or otherwise.

Edited May 31, 2016 by JLCrab

[Fookhaht]

To heck with the beer, possession of up to one ounce of marijuana is legal in Colorado.

For all their self-sufficiency and organic gardening in Thailand you would think after almost 10 years on the Colorado property they could set up a small greenhouse hydroponic or otherwise.

A greenhouse in the high winds and deep snows of a Rocky Mountain basin? Doubtful. Most don't realize how wild the weather can get in such an environment.

See all those snow patches? I'm guessing that video was shot mid-June at the earliest, to possibly as late as mid-July. Plus, a storm with snowfall can occur virtually any day of the year, including August and September.

[JLCrab]

To heck with the beer, possession of up to one ounce of marijuana is legal in Colorado.

For all their self-sufficiency and organic gardening in Thailand you would think after almost 10 years on the Colorado property they could set up a small greenhouse hydroponic or otherwise.

A greenhouse in the high winds and deep snows of a Rocky Mountain basin? Doubtful. Most don't realize how wild the weather can get in such an environment.

See all those snow patches? I'm guessing that video was shot mid-June at the earliest, to possibly as late as mid-July. Plus, a storm with snowfall can occur virtually any day of the year, including August and September.

"If you have not read elsewhere on this website we are located at an altitude of almost 9500' in the Colorado Rocky Mountains. Having fresh greens to eat in the winter without traveling to the store can be a challenge... but to our surprise not a road block. Incorporating a subterranean heating system into our greenhouse has been a wonderful success."

http://www.infolightandliving.com/projects/high-altitude-gardening

[heybruce]

The "locally sourced lumber" clearly wasn't from this barren area, at what cost was it brought in? Does he live without electrical power, or have a power source? If he has some kind of electrical power source, what was the cost of providing it? Does anyone really believe he's raising cattle and planting potatoes? If not, then how does he feed himself? Where does his craft beer and wine come from?

My questions were about sustainable living on a remote patch of ground with no apparent resources. My assumption was that this man had outside resources for building the house and outside income to sustain himself. My assumption was confirmed by those who researched the man.

Possibly all these questions will be answered in a future video. Building the house was the first stage. The processes of creating sustainable agriculture on an apparently barren piece of land takes time. Plants grow slowly.

There are many ways of improving the fertility of land. If there's a shortage of average rainfall, for example, one can effectively double the rainfall on parts of the land by creating a slope and using perhaps just 1/3rd of of the bottom part of the slope, which is flattened out, to grow vegetables or fruit trees. The run-off, whenever it rains, increases the amount of water available to the planted area.

There are also various types of exotic plants that can be introduced, which might thrive in those conditions at that elevation. If you have ever been to New Zealand you might have noticed a problem they have over there with certain varieties of pine trees that were introduced from Canada and Europe about 100 years ago. The trees flourish in an apparently otherwise barren landscape, causing protests from farmers who want land for grazing sheep and cattle.

In fact, at the beginning of this video one gets a brief view of the surrounding hills covered in trees, probably some sort of pine tree. Whether or not those trees are on Jon Jandai's property, is not clear, but I suspect the land where is his house is built was once cleared of trees at some time in the past.

The general name often given to such sustainable and natural methods of agriculture, is Permaculture. Here is the Wikipedia link, if you're interested.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permaculture

By the way, solar panels for the generation of electricity, are very affordable nowadays. The main cost is for the storage batteries, but those are gradually becoming more efficient and more affordable as technology progresses, and also taking government subsidies into account. In Australia, the initial cost of installing such a system can pay for itself within a few years.

The article suggests that living off the grid in a remote location is easy and affordable, a life of comfort and craft beer. That is what I have been questioning.

Brewing your own beer is easy. Have you never tried it?

What is affordable is a relative term. The main message I got from this video is that building a house in this manner, using one's own labour and the free labour of friends, and using existing, locally available materials, and second-hand and discarded materials, is much more affordable than buying a ready-built conventional house on a small plot of land in the city or suburbs.

Jon Jandai mentions that such a house would be a quarter or a fifth of the cost of a conventional house built by professional builders. I believe that would be a realistic estimate, based upon my own experience in Australia.

For the same price that a small block of land in the suburbs would cost, one could probably buy 20 or 50 acres of land in a remote area, off the grid. Depending of the size of the house one needs, it could cost, say, $300,000 if built by professional builders in the suburbs.

If built in the manner shown by Jon Jandai, the same size house might cost, say, $70,000. If that's the case, which I believe is realistic, it's understood that one has to already have the $70,000, and the money to buy the land, before one can start on the project.

One assumes that the area is accessible by 4WD vehicles, but the video doesn't go into such details. However, the tyres supposedly came from a near-by dump which presumably has access by some sort of dirt road.

Once the house has been built, then one can relax and enjoy one's home-brewed beer.

Jon Jandai's personal wealth is a separate issue. For all I know he could afford to buy half a dozen houses in the city. That's not the point. The point is, if a person has only $200,000, say, which is not sufficient buy a block of land in the suburbs and have a large house built on it by a professional builder, without borrowing money which might be impossible if one is unemployed, then Jon Jandai's approach, as shown in the video, is a realistic option for anyone who might like that sort of lifestyle and who refuses to get into debt.

"Brewing your own beer is easy. Have you never tried it?"

Yes, but I haven't grown the barley and hops required to brew the beer, and I doubt that Jon Jandai has either. Have you?

You deleted most of my post, then ignored most of what you didn't delete. The material for the house described may not have cost much, and the labor nothing if he did all the work himself, which I doubt. However even if the area is accessible by dirt road, getting the material for solar power--panels, batteries, some kind of frame that can hold everything down in 200 mph winds (probably half that at most, but still destructive) would be expensive. I don't know how much money would be required to finish a project of this nature, but I'm sure it is more than most people have readily available. Remember, this is not the sort of project that a bank is likely to loan money for.

Once everything is built, how do you support yourself? For those who haven't tried it, farming is hard on good land in friendlier climates, I'm not sure it would be possible at all on this high, barren land. Ranching is also difficult and requires considerable expertise, especially if you have cattle that can't graze seven months of the year and that will need shelter during the frequent winter storms.

Of course one could always do some kind of work on the internet. Wait, this is off the grid, isn't it?

"The point is, if a person has only $200,000, say, which is not sufficient buy a block of land in the suburbs and have a large house built on it by a professional builder, without borrowing money which might be impossible if one is unemployed, then Jon Jandai's approach, as shown in the video, is a realistic option for anyone who might like that sort of lifestyle and who refuses to get into debt."

Your argument is that this is lifestyle that an unemployed person with $200,000 could live. I don't know any unemployed people with $200,000 to spare, but assuming such people exist, this is a lifestyle that such people could begin, not finish. Once the money runs out the lifestyle, house, investment, etc. would have to be abandoned unless the individual has some other source of income.

Jon Jandai doesn't live off the grid, and he certainly doesn't sustain himself in this remote, off the grid house. He vacations there. This is an option for someone who has a good income and likes this sort of vacation.

Edited May 31, 2016 by heybruce

[VincentRJ]

Once everything is built, how do you support yourself? For those who haven't tried it, farming is hard on good land in friendlier climates, I'm not sure it would be possible at all on this high, barren land. Ranching is also difficult and requires considerable expertise, especially if you have cattle that can't graze seven months of the year and that will need shelter during the frequent winter storms.

Of course one could always do some kind of work on the internet. Wait, this is off the grid, isn't it?

"The point is, if a person has only $200,000, say, which is not sufficient buy a block of land in the suburbs and have a large house built on it by a professional builder, without borrowing money which might be impossible if one is unemployed, then Jon Jandai's approach, as shown in the video, is a realistic option for anyone who might like that sort of lifestyle and who refuses to get into debt."

Your argument is that this is lifestyle that an unemployed person with $200,000 could live. I don't know any unemployed people with $200,000 to spare, but assuming such people exist, this is a lifestyle that such people could begin, not finish. Once the money runs out the lifestyle, house, investment, etc. would have to be abandoned unless the individual has some other source of income.

The figure of $200,000 was a very rough estimate based upon my impression from the video that the house looked huge and the block of land was large, perhaps 100 acres.

If one doesn't have $200,000 then one would scale the project down. Perhaps one could buy a 10 acre block in a remote area off the grid, for only US$20,000, or even less. One could in Australia. Since a major expense for the house is the solar panels and battery storage, a smaller house might cost $50,000, which means the total project cost would be only $70,000.

It's pretty obvious that this is the sort of lifestyle which would only appeal to someone with a 'hippie' mentality who wants to escape from the hustle and bustle of city life and a 9am to 5pm job.

Sacrifices would no doubt be made, according to the amount of cash one had and according to the circumstances one had chosen.

I personally would not choose to live in such a cold place at such a high altitude, especially if I intended to become self-sufficient, growing all of my own food and selling the surplus. However, some people do actually get pleasure from growing various plants and food, and enjoy the challenges of becoming self-sufficient.

[JLCrab]

One might also take a look at these people:

About High Altitude Permaculture

At 9200 feet in Colorado, High Altitude Permaculture was established in 1992 to show that the principles and strategies of permaculture are effective in even the harshest conditions.

http://hialtpc.org/about/

[VincentRJ]

One might also take a look at these people:

About High Altitude Permaculture

At 9200 feet in Colorado, High Altitude Permaculture was established in 1992 to show that the principles and strategies of permaculture are effective in even the harshest conditions.

http://hialtpc.org/about/

Thanks for the link. I've no doubt it is possible to become self-sufficient in such environments despite the long, cold winters. Anyone who has done some trekking in Nepal would have encountered small-scale farms at altitudes up to 10,000 ft, which is a mere 3,300 metres. Such self-sufficient, family farms often don't even have access to bore water and solar electricity, and are definitely 'off the grid'.

The challenges at such high altitudes are just greater.

[heybruce]

Once everything is built, how do you support yourself? For those who haven't tried it, farming is hard on good land in friendlier climates, I'm not sure it would be possible at all on this high, barren land. Ranching is also difficult and requires considerable expertise, especially if you have cattle that can't graze seven months of the year and that will need shelter during the frequent winter storms.

Of course one could always do some kind of work on the internet. Wait, this is off the grid, isn't it?

"The point is, if a person has only $200,000, say, which is not sufficient buy a block of land in the suburbs and have a large house built on it by a professional builder, without borrowing money which might be impossible if one is unemployed, then Jon Jandai's approach, as shown in the video, is a realistic option for anyone who might like that sort of lifestyle and who refuses to get into debt."

Your argument is that this is lifestyle that an unemployed person with $200,000 could live. I don't know any unemployed people with $200,000 to spare, but assuming such people exist, this is a lifestyle that such people could begin, not finish. Once the money runs out the lifestyle, house, investment, etc. would have to be abandoned unless the individual has some other source of income.

The figure of $200,000 was a very rough estimate based upon my impression from the video that the house looked huge and the block of land was large, perhaps 100 acres.

If one doesn't have $200,000 then one would scale the project down. Perhaps one could buy a 10 acre block in a remote area off the grid, for only US$20,000, or even less. One could in Australia. Since a major expense for the house is the solar panels and battery storage, a smaller house might cost $50,000, which means the total project cost would be only $70,000.

It's pretty obvious that this is the sort of lifestyle which would only appeal to someone with a 'hippie' mentality who wants to escape from the hustle and bustle of city life and a 9am to 5pm job.

Sacrifices would no doubt be made, according to the amount of cash one had and according to the circumstances one had chosen.

I personally would not choose to live in such a cold place at such a high altitude, especially if I intended to become self-sufficient, growing all of my own food and selling the surplus. However, some people do actually get pleasure from growing various plants and food, and enjoy the challenges of becoming self-sufficient.

The food grown on ten acres during the short growing season of high altitude Colorado would not come close to feeding a person for one year.

I think only two kinds of people would attempt this kind of life--rich eccentrics that want to live like hermits, and retirees with secure pensions that don't mind being far from medical care and other people.