New Brexit polls suggest shift in favour of leaving the EU

[dick dasterdly]

Someone, somewhere came up with a link to the Paxman programme. I couldn't find the post, so googled the youtube video.

Un-suprisingly, an interesting and informative programme, although I must have misunderstood one part where I thought he was implying that Thatcher was thrown out 'cos she opposed the Maastricht treaty?

As I'm not overly bothered by sovereiegnty (thinking that the EU has at least done more for workers' rights than Brit. govts. who are far more concerned about big business, and getting lucrative board positions/consultancies within said big business) - I'd love to see a Paxman programme on the cost of the EU.

I note that you are very concerned about workers' rights, DD, and quite rightly so.

Is it not a fact that paid leave benefits and parenting leave benefits in the United Kingdom are superior to those mandated by the EU?

I'm ashamed to admit that I can't be bothered to look it up, but have no doubt you are right.

Do you disagree that the EU has forced the UK to adopt other workers' rights that the UK tried hard to reject? I'm also reminded of the UK's determination to stop bankers' bonuses being limited after the 'crash'....

Its one of those unfortunate things - I hate the cost and waste of the EU, but also trust them more (to a certain extent...) to take into account the poor and ordinary worker than the Brit. govt. who have done their best to block every 'workers' rights' EU law.

[FrankGers]

Brewster, one example . . .

Still at this time, no one knows Mair's motives for this ghastly crime.

Oh yes they do. Neo-Nazi regalia discovered at Thomas Mair's home. Neo-Nazi organisations support BREXIT, but that might not bother some contributors to this forum other than want to sweep it under the carpet.

IRA supporters, rapists, pedophile, murderers, ginger people, left handed people, blue, brown green and black people support remain......see what i did there?

[dick dasterdly]

Have any politicians come out in favour against the votes that are likely to be cast by their constituents?

[SgtRock]

Have any politicians come out in favour against the votes that are likely to be cast by their constituents?

I believe that question will not be answered until after the referendum and Parliament has to vote on accepting the result should it be an '' Out '' vote.

I would think that in the event of a remain vote, no Parliamentary vote would be required. Carry on as normal.

It would probably be wise to keep personal votes in the referendum, personal. No need to give further ammunition to crackpots.

[dick dasterdly]

Have any politicians come out in favour against the votes that are likely to be cast by their constituents?

I believe that question will not be answered until after the referendum and Parliament has to vote on accepting the result should it be an '' Out '' vote.

I would think that in the event of a remain vote, no Parliamentary vote would be required. Carry on as normal.

It would probably be wise to keep personal votes in the referendum, personal. No need to give further ammunition to crackpots.

Obviously, I worded it badly.

Politicians have made clear whether they prefer to remain or stay? So I'm wondering whether any are obviously going against their constituents wishes?

[Ace of Pop]

[brewsterbudgen]

Brewster, one example . . .

Still at this time, no one knows Mair's motives for this ghastly crime.

Thanks. I hadn't seen that and it is, indeed, disgusting. The British tabloid press stoop to even lower lows.

[allanos]

Someone, somewhere came up with a link to the Paxman programme. I couldn't find the post, so googled the youtube video.

Un-suprisingly, an interesting and informative programme, although I must have misunderstood one part where I thought he was implying that Thatcher was thrown out 'cos she opposed the Maastricht treaty?

As I'm not overly bothered by sovereiegnty (thinking that the EU has at least done more for workers' rights than Brit. govts. who are far more concerned about big business, and getting lucrative board positions/consultancies within said big business) - I'd love to see a Paxman programme on the cost of the EU.

I note that you are very concerned about workers' rights, DD, and quite rightly so.

Is it not a fact that paid leave benefits and parenting leave benefits in the United Kingdom are superior to those mandated by the EU?

I'm ashamed to admit that I can't be bothered to look it up, but have no doubt you are right.

Do you disagree that the EU has forced the UK to adopt other workers' rights that the UK tried hard to reject? I'm also reminded of the UK's determination to stop bankers' bonuses being limited after the 'crash'....

Its one of those unfortunate things - I hate the cost and waste of the EU, but also trust them more (to a certain extent...) to take into account the poor and ordinary worker than the Brit. govt. who have done their best to block every 'workers' rights' EU law.

In principle, I think you are correct.

However, for me, the weight of the Brexit decision falls squarely on the sovereignty issue, currently, but, perhaps, of greater concern is what a

future European Union may look like, with the potential of the United Kingdom having to face a greater erosion of sovereignty, joining

the Eurozeone itself with an ever-weakening Euro currency, Turkey accession, relinquishing control over the defence force, common income

tax numbers, and all of the Big Brother stuff which the EU Commission has in mind now, and which will undoubtedly ensue and be implemented.

[SgtRock]

Have any politicians come out in favour against the votes that are likely to be cast by their constituents?

I believe that question will not be answered until after the referendum and Parliament has to vote on accepting the result should it be an '' Out '' vote.

I would think that in the event of a remain vote, no Parliamentary vote would be required. Carry on as normal.

It would probably be wise to keep personal votes in the referendum, personal. No need to give further ammunition to crackpots.

Obviously, I worded it badly.

Politicians have made clear whether they prefer to remain or stay? So I'm wondering whether any are obviously going against their constituents wishes?

I do not think that you have worded it badly.

My answer still stands.

Right up to polling day everyone, including Politicians have the right vote whatever way they wish.

It will only become an issue once the votes have been counted and it is in favour of exit.

Then it will be voted on in Parliament and it is only then that Politicians will be able to actively vote against their constituents.

[SgtRock]

I'm ashamed to admit that I can't be bothered to look it up, but have no doubt you are right.

Do you disagree that the EU has forced the UK to adopt other workers' rights that the UK tried hard to reject? I'm also reminded of the UK's determination to stop bankers' bonuses being limited after the 'crash'....

Its one of those unfortunate things - I hate the cost and waste of the EU, but also trust them more (to a certain extent...) to take into account the poor and ordinary worker than the Brit. govt. who have done their best to block every 'workers' rights' EU law.

In principle, I think you are correct.

However, for me, the weight of the Brexit decision falls squarely on the sovereignty issue, currently, but, perhaps, of greater concern is what a

future European Union may look like, with the potential of the United Kingdom having to face a greater erosion of sovereignty, joining

the Eurozeone itself with an ever-weakening Euro currency, Turkey accession, relinquishing control over the defence force, common income

tax numbers, and all of the Big Brother stuff which the EU Commission has in mind now, and which will undoubtedly ensue and be implemented.

Indeed.

All the stuff that the remain camp avoid with a barge pole and try and sweep under the carpet

[Ace of Pop]

[MissAndry]

with the potential of the United Kingdom having to face a greater erosion of sovereignty, joining

the Eurozeone itself with an ever-weakening Euro currency,

Using the American dollar as a baseline, the pound has weakened considerably more than the Euro.

By about 20%.

[SgtRock]

What is going on with the IMF ?

Despite previously spouting doom and gloom and catastrophic consequences for the UK in the event of a Brexit.

Britain need not suffer a recession if it leaves the European Union, the International Monetary Fund has said in its assessment of the risks around the referendum.

http://news.sky.com/story/1713684/imf-brexit-may-not-mean-a-british-recession

Furthermore

The Treasury has predicted a recession in both of the two scenarios it used in its modelling. It also predicted long-term damage of between 3.8% and 7.5% of gross domestic product. However, the Fund predicted that the economy would be anywhere from 1.4% to 4.5% smaller in the long-run.

And here is the reason that Project Fear has not worked. Whilst most people accept that their would be a financial risk.

The vast majority of economists predict that Britain would be weaker in the event of a Brexit, however they differ considerably about the scale of the impact.

[returnofthailand]

all UK guys I have met want Brexit. brits who want stay are just a bunch of dreamers!

I would brexit, you can still rejoin later, or better, make a new Europe with Norway and Switzerland. we will call it the Europe 2, the new Europe, ...

[SgtRock]

The British referendum on membership of the EU could herald the “slow goodbye of the European idea” unless politicians learn their lessons from it, Austria’s new chancellor has said.

And if anyone is in any doubt about the not too distant future of full Political and Monetary Integration.

Chancellor warns that failure to clarify EU welfare system will bring about a ‘slow goodbye of the European idea’

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/18/christian-kern-austria-chancellor-eu-welfare-reforms-brexit

That is the Austrian Chancellor speaking. Not the British one.

[allanos]

with the potential of the United Kingdom having to face a greater erosion of sovereignty, joining

the Eurozeone itself with an ever-weakening Euro currency,

Using the American dollar as a baseline, the pound has weakened considerably more than the Euro.

By about 20%.

Did you purposely mis-read my post, or did you not comprehend it?

My comment was in the context of how I see the future unfolding. There will be enormous pressure on the Euro going forward, with low growth (since 2008/9),

all of the "weak links" (Greece, Spain, Portugal, Italy) undermining and eroding its strength, together with accession difficulties (read Turkey), the immigrant crisis (read enormous demands on social services), and much. much more, especially if the United Kingdom have exited.

Believe me, the EU budget will be creaking in the medium term, and the Euro will take strain.

[MJP]

“The most puzzling development in politics during the last decade is the apparent determination of Western European leaders to re-create the Soviet Union in Western Europe.” - Mikhail Gorbachev.

[MissAndry]

with the potential of the United Kingdom having to face a greater erosion of sovereignty, joining

the Eurozeone itself with an ever-weakening Euro currency,

Using the American dollar as a baseline, the pound has weakened considerably more than the Euro.

By about 20%.

Did you purposely mis-read my post, or did you not comprehend it?

Believe me, the EU budget will be creaking in the medium term, and the Euro will take strain.

Well, it has plenty of room to weaken, before it reaches the weakness or the British pound.

[Ace of Pop]

​The only thing that comes to mind as a Non Brit that the EU has done to benefit England is to stop them wrapping Fish n Chips in old Newspapers If you find that funny, its not intended As for my own Nation i cant think of Sod All.

[allanos]

with the potential of the United Kingdom having to face a greater erosion of sovereignty, joining

the Eurozeone itself with an ever-weakening Euro currency,

Using the American dollar as a baseline, the pound has weakened considerably more than the Euro.

By about 20%.

Did you purposely mis-read my post, or did you not comprehend it?

Believe me, the EU budget will be creaking in the medium term, and the Euro will take strain.

Well, it has plenty of room to weaken, before it reaches the weakness or the British pound.

I would be looking at a different metric. Recent IMF studies showed that forecast GDP growth will outstrip that of the European Union. No particular reason

why this should change, given Brexit.

[sirineou]

I an not European, so take my opinion with a grain of salt, but some times an outside view can help separate the forest from the treas.

Pride is one of the seven sins, and it often leads people in to decisions they would not otherwise take.

Because of it some people are willing to cut their nose to spite their face. A Brexit is an emotional decision not a rational one.

IMO a Brexit it will be disastrous for the UK , I dont think it would also be good for the Brits living in LOS as the pound weakens,

As much as we might wish otherwise, globalization is our future , IMO , Britain has a better chance to compete with in the EU, than outside it.

The Brits and everyone else involved should be working in strengthening the EU rather than weakening it.

[returnofthailand]

what would vote Jesus if he was here? Brexit or no brexit. I would vote what Jesus says.

[allanos]

I an not European, so take my opinion with a grain of salt, but some times an outside view can help separate the forest from the treas.

Pride is one of the seven sins, and it often leads people in to decisions they would not otherwise take.

Because of it some people are willing to cut their nose to spite their face. A Brexit is an emotional decision not a rational one.

IMO a Brexit it will be disastrous for the UK , I dont think it would also be good for the Brits living in LOS as the pound weakens,

As much as we might wish otherwise, globalization is our future , IMO , Britain has a better chance to compete with in the EU, than outside it.

The Brits and everyone else involved should be working in strengthening the EU rather than weakening it.

You make a good, reasoned post, but it would seem that, as a non-European, you won't appreciate all of the nuances

of the situation. British past glory (or "pride", as you put it), would come a long way down a list of reasons as to why

a majority of United Kingdom citizens would vote for Brexit.

[MJP]

I an not European, so take my opinion with a grain of salt, but some times an outside view can help separate the forest from the treas.

Pride is one of the seven sins, and it often leads people in to decisions they would not otherwise take.

Because of it some people are willing to cut their nose to spite their face. A Brexit is an emotional decision not a rational one.

IMO a Brexit it will be disastrous for the UK , I dont think it would also be good for the Brits living in LOS as the pound weakens,

As much as we might wish otherwise, globalization is our future , IMO , Britain has a better chance to compete with in the EU, than outside it.

The Brits and everyone else involved should be working in strengthening the EU rather than weakening it.

You make a good, reasoned post, but it would seem that, as a non-European, you won't appreciate all of the nuances

of the situation. British past glory (or "pride", as you put it), would come a long way down a list of reasons as to why

a majority of United Kingdom citizens would vote for Brexit.

For me it comes down to maintaining a democracy within a socially moderated capitalist system. Bluntly put, at least we can kick 'em out every five years.

[Johnyo]

I an not European, so take my opinion with a grain of salt, but some times an outside view can help separate the forest from the treas.

Pride is one of the seven sins, and it often leads people in to decisions they would not otherwise take.

Because of it some people are willing to cut their nose to spite their face. A Brexit is an emotional decision not a rational one.

IMO a Brexit it will be disastrous for the UK , I dont think it would also be good for the Brits living in LOS as the pound weakens,

As much as we might wish otherwise, globalization is our future , IMO , Britain has a better chance to compete with in the EU, than outside it.

The Brits and everyone else involved should be working in strengthening the EU rather than weakening it.

You make a good, reasoned post, but it would seem that, as a non-European, you won't appreciate all of the nuances

of the situation. British past glory (or "pride", as you put it), would come a long way down a list of reasons as to why

a majority of United Kingdom citizens would vote for Brexit.

For me it comes down to maintaining a democracy within a socially moderated capitalist system. Bluntly put, at least we can kick 'em out every five years.

Kick out labour to put in the Torys and viceversa doesn't sound much of a democracy to me. Democracy is an illusion. If voting actually mattered we wouldn't be allowed to vote. I don't like the UKIP but a party that gets 4 million votes and one MP in return shows what bullshit the " democratic" system is right now. Edited June 18, 2016 by Johnyo

[MJP]

I an not European, so take my opinion with a grain of salt, but some times an outside view can help separate the forest from the treas.

Pride is one of the seven sins, and it often leads people in to decisions they would not otherwise take.

Because of it some people are willing to cut their nose to spite their face. A Brexit is an emotional decision not a rational one.

IMO a Brexit it will be disastrous for the UK , I dont think it would also be good for the Brits living in LOS as the pound weakens,

As much as we might wish otherwise, globalization is our future , IMO , Britain has a better chance to compete with in the EU, than outside it.

The Brits and everyone else involved should be working in strengthening the EU rather than weakening it.

You make a good, reasoned post, but it would seem that, as a non-European, you won't appreciate all of the nuances

of the situation. British past glory (or "pride", as you put it), would come a long way down a list of reasons as to why

a majority of United Kingdom citizens would vote for Brexit.

For me it comes down to maintaining a democracy within a socially moderated capitalist system. Bluntly put, at least we can kick 'em out every five years.

Kick out labour to put in the Torys and viceversa doesn't sound much of a democracy to me. Democracy is an illusion. If voting actually mattered we wouldn't be allowed to vote. I don't like the UKIP but a party that gets 4 million votes and one MP in return shows what bullshit the " democratic" system is right now.

I'm struggling to disagree with you to be honest.

[SgtRock]

I an not European, so take my opinion with a grain of salt, but some times an outside view can help separate the forest from the treas.

Pride is one of the seven sins, and it often leads people in to decisions they would not otherwise take.

Because of it some people are willing to cut their nose to spite their face. A Brexit is an emotional decision not a rational one.

IMO a Brexit it will be disastrous for the UK , I dont think it would also be good for the Brits living in LOS as the pound weakens,

As much as we might wish otherwise, globalization is our future , IMO , Britain has a better chance to compete with in the EU, than outside it.

The Brits and everyone else involved should be working in strengthening the EU rather than weakening it.

You make a good, reasoned post, but it would seem that, as a non-European, you won't appreciate all of the nuances

of the situation. British past glory (or "pride", as you put it), would come a long way down a list of reasons as to why

a majority of United Kingdom citizens would vote for Brexit.

I have to second allanos.

It might help if you read Post 1133, forget the white noise that is the popular press and familiarize yourself with the issues that are NOT being brought up in the press.

Which are far more important than anything mentioned to date in the media.

[MJP]

Got this through from a colleague. It's long but thought I'd share in any case.

THE EU ARE WE IN or OUT

Background

The European Union (EU) can trace its origins from the European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC) and the European Economic Community (EEC), formed in 1951 and 1958 respectively by the Inner Six countries of Belgium, France, West Germany, Italy, Luxembourg and the Netherlands.17 May 2016. The European Union was established under its current name in 1993 following the Maastricht Treaty. Since then the community has grown in size because of the accession of new member states. The latest major amendment to the constitutional basis of the EU, the Treaty of Lisbon, came into force in 2009. The European Union is an economic and political union of 28 countries. Each of the countries within the Union are independent but they agree to trade under the agreements made between the nations. Twenty two of the member states also belong to the Schengen Area, which is comprised of 26 European countries that have abolished passport and border controls at their common borders. Of the countries that are not part of it, Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus and Romania all intend to join, while the United Kingdom and Ireland have opted out. The 28 countries within the European Union include Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, the Republic of Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, the Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden and the United Kingdom. The European Economic Area (EEA) includes EU countries and also Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway. It allows them to be part of the EU’s single market.

So what is the purpose of the EU? The European Union itself states its formation was to operate as a single market which allows free movement of goods, capital, services and people between member states. By Definition: The common market is a stage in the multinational integration process, which, in the words of a Court of Justice ruling, aims to remove all the barriers to intra-Community trade with a view to the merger of national markets into a single market giving rise to conditions as close as possible to a genuine internal market.

In 1973 the UK citizens voted to join the Common Market which was to be an organisation which had trade agreements with the member countries and their companies. But over the last 43 years that Common Market concept has been taken over and developed into the European Union which has gradually taken control over more and more areas which have nothing to do with trade. The bureaucrats in charge have now forgotten the original concept of a common market and are pushing forward make the EU one federal state, with one currency, one tax system, one medical system, one pension system, one judicial system and one federal military service controlled by those in charge of the EU.

Please do not just consider the topical subject of uncontrolled immigration, but look at the wider implications detailed below before making your final decision. It’s your choice but remember that choice will affect the future of generations to come.

1. Why would you want to belong to an organisation that is going to manage your future and which is run by unelected, unaccountable, unapproachable, undemocratic predominately left wing socialists bureaucrats. Who are going to decide what you can do or not do in your future and your children’s future, that’s not democracy? If you have a problem in the UK you can write to your member of parliament, does anyone know who you would write to take up an issue on your behalf in the EU?

2. Why would you want to belong to a foreign organisation to which the UK paid in 2015 £17.8 Billion, got back £12.4 Billion in rebate, so UK paid Nett contribution of £12.9 Billion. That is currently £200 for every UK citizen, and could reduce the basic rate of tax by 3 pence in the pound. Yet this organisation is not accountable to any one and its account have not been signed off now for 15 years. So what do they spend our £12.9 Billion on, it’s your money being paid to this organisation but no one can tell you where and why it ends up where it does. If the EU was a private business it would face criminal charges and go into administration

3. Imagine what that money could have been spent on in the UK. More modern hospitals, care homes and medical services for all the elderly in this country, better schools and roads. And our budget deficit could have been reduced or eliminated.

4. By voting YES to remain in EU this will indicate the UK has accepted this corrupt mis-management of EU finances and accepts its ultimate aim of a federal state controlled centrally from Brussels

5. No one can give information of how much money pours into the EU coffers and where the money goes annually, and through the mad mismanagement of money, the better the country does financially the more money it has to pay to the EU

6. When the UK was instructed by EU to open its borders, on one told us the EU would be opening its borders to the world

7. Remember in recent conflicts and bomb attacks it’s was not the EU that has organised the protection of people it’s been NATO. What has the EU done about the ISIS issue-nothing? Remember Europe is protected by NATO not by the EU.

8. Our military, throughout an illustrious history, has always firstly pledged allegiance to Queen and Country and for the protection of its citizens. If we vote to remain in the EU, once the federal state and its federal state military is achieved, that allegiance to Queen and Country will be forbidden. The pledge allegiance will be to the federal state not the UK and this federal state would also control NATO

9. The EU insists on the freedom of movement for its 500 million citizens and they can all come to the UK without restriction. So if there is freedom of movement into countries, why is there not freedom of movement out of the country in the form of deportation of foreign criminals?

In the UK jails there are significant numbers (over 10% of the total amount of those in jail who are foreign nationals- predominately Polish, Albanian etc.). So why is it the UK cannot deport them after they have served their sentence. It is because the European Court of Justice opposes deportation and the country the criminal originated from apposes their return as it means another welfare payment to be made and housing to be found

10. 5 new countries are set to join EU, Albania, Serbia, Montenegro, Macedonia & Turkey (75 million people just from this country) all predominately Muslim residents, who when they have joined the EU, will in accordance with EU rules, will have the right to free entry to UK and all its services and benefits.

11. Be aware of the fact that if we remain in the EU we will become a member nation of a federal state. It is a known intention of the EU that once that federal state has been created then potentially all member countries will be called one name. Imagine the UK becoming known as Federal state No3-it could happen! And so would be lost the rich history of this country

12. Also be aware that by remaining in the EU, every UK citizen is liable under the European Arrest Warrant to be arrested by a foreign police force in the UK and can be judicially surrendered and be extradited, possibly on the most flimsiest charges. This without evidence being presented against them in a British court of law, as our court has no power to prevent that extradition back to another EU country to stand trial and a possible prison sentence in that countries prisons. This without support of the government (Tony Blair signed the UK up to this) and the CPS. You will be on your own! And not supported by your government

13. Under the EU current open door immigration policy it is now felt that due to the unsustainable numbers of migrants coming from EU and Non EU countries into UK eventually resentment and civil unrest is an alarming potential. If this open door policy is not stopped our service and benefits infrastructure will collapse under pressure

14. The EU wants the UK to be in the Euro, but the evidence of the failure of the euro can be clearly identified with the current problems in Greece, Spain etc. again another evidence of socialist mis- management

15. Mass immigration has led to the loss of the real true identity of the English Saxon person

16. Be aware of the EU pushing on for a EU one federal state, and one federal military service controlled by another unelected socialist bureaucrat named Miss Federicia Mogherini who has a left wing communist background and favours Russia. The European military will be run by this EU commissioner and not by competent military personnel.

17. The EU wants to align the UK health service to how it is managed in Europe. This could mean the end of the NHS as we know it.

18. The EU have stated that they intend to put a tax on every financial transaction undertaken within the UK

19. The UK cannot undertake international trade deals with countries within the EU but more importantly outside the EU unless it obtains permission from the International Trade Administrator-another socialist’s bureaucrat (an ex teacher-so has a lot of experience of international trade dealing!!). This is what we pay for in our membership to be prevented to do our own international trade deals

20. In the current Tata steelwork problem the EU has banned the UK from bailing out the company as it contravenes EU law regarding company assistance

21. If we vote to remain in EU then our elected democratic parliament and our MPs become subservient to an unelected body based in Brussels

22. By voting YES to REMAIN means voting for a loss of UK democracy, a democracy which is enshrined in the Magna Carta. It will also mean a loss of sovereignty.

23. All us pay taxes and those taxes go towards the upkeep of foreign nationals that you have never heard of

24. Under EU Common Fishing Policy. French fishing boats can trawl and keep 4000lb of haddock per day. But UK trawlers are restricted to 550lbs per month and the EU is now in charge of the UK 12 mile fishing limit. The main reason all our trawlers sit in harbour and watch foreign fishing fleets fish our waters. How is that a common fishing policy?

25. UK justice systems are now subservient to the EU Court of Justice-another set of unapproachable bureaucrats. If you cannot make your own laws, control your own borders then you are not an independent sovereign nation

26. In December 2015 the EU told the UK banking system to reduce income paid by business to banks every time a credit card is used. So credit card loyalty schemes are being reduced

27. In 2015 EU instructed UK banks to reduce their liability to account holders from £85k down to £75K, no reason given

28. The EU has indicated that if we remain they will be looking at UK pension schemes and try and align them to European schemes which the City of London have already indicated this would be a disaster for the UK pension industry

29. To ensure a common federal policy the EU is intending to standardise the tax system across the EU so UK HMRC will be managed by Brussels and act as just a tax collector for a foreign power

30. When the UK government propose new laws they are debated within the House of Commons and accepted under majority voting by all our MPs, who have been democratically elected by the people of this country. Under EU control, the EU make the laws and then informs the 27 member nation’s via issued EU Directives they must implement those directives into their national law.

31. Only 6% of UK companies export to the EU but 100% of UK companies must comply with EU law

32. Remember it was the EU who gave Ford a big grant to move Transit Van production from Dagenham to Turkey

33. Big companies from the USA and Asia have already stated they will increase trade with the UK if it leaves the EU as there will be less trade and financial restrictions to deal with

34. Our parents fought in a world war to ensure our freedom and prevent world dominance by Germany, but again Germany is again trying for European dominance but via being one of the leaders of the EU

Does anyone know what the benefits are for belonging to the EU and what are the benefits for not belonging to it? Why has the EU not told us this?

So if you vote for Socialism then vote REMAIN, if you vote CAPITALISM vote to Leave

[allanos]

I an not European, so take my opinion with a grain of salt, but some times an outside view can help separate the forest from the treas.

Pride is one of the seven sins, and it often leads people in to decisions they would not otherwise take.

Because of it some people are willing to cut their nose to spite their face. A Brexit is an emotional decision not a rational one.

IMO a Brexit it will be disastrous for the UK , I dont think it would also be good for the Brits living in LOS as the pound weakens,

As much as we might wish otherwise, globalization is our future , IMO , Britain has a better chance to compete with in the EU, than outside it.

The Brits and everyone else involved should be working in strengthening the EU rather than weakening it.

You make a good, reasoned post, but it would seem that, as a non-European, you won't appreciate all of the nuances

of the situation. British past glory (or "pride", as you put it), would come a long way down a list of reasons as to why

a majority of United Kingdom citizens would vote for Brexit.

For me it comes down to maintaining a democracy within a socially moderated capitalist system. Bluntly put, at least we can kick 'em out every five years.

Kick out labour to put in the Torys and viceversa doesn't sound much of a democracy to me. Democracy is an illusion. If voting actually mattered we wouldn't be allowed to vote. I don't like the UKIP but a party that gets 4 million votes and one MP in return shows what bullshit the " democratic" system is right now.

The fact that it is not a "pure" democracy (there is actually no such thing - anywhere! -) doesn't make it less worthy. It has served Britain well for over one hundred years. Your disparaging comment will fall on deaf ears. And a citizen of a country that gave the world General Franco and his regime should probably be more

measured, tempered and circumspect in what he has to say about British democracy.

[MJP]

^^Allanos, he does make a good point about one member one vote.