Tiger’s hides and amulets seized from a truck leaving Tiger’s Temple

[happy Joe]

while I met monks whom I take serious and respect well - being a monk in Thailand means nothing to me anymore - sorry for the honorable ones, who exist for sure.

I studied the Buddhas's teaching and adore them - but monkhood in Thailand has nothing to do with it.

The orange robe alone does not deserve respect.

The advantage of this statement is that it can be easily returned to its author.

One who judges of all and everything in his armchair does not deserve special respect.

And for Thai visa one can even specify that the pack is almost always wrong. So being an convinced atheist I start taking these monks in sympathy by reading you.

[snowgard]

This damage the image of Thailand real so much!!!

It gone worldwide now: https://www.google.co.th/search?q=tiger+temple&num=100&newwindow=1&source=lnms&tbm=nws&sa=X

[Bung]

Thailand, step up to the plate, admit there was a terrible mistake in letting this go on for so long. Do something. Arrest all involved and raze it to the ground. Then close all similar operations forever and never let it happen again.

[ratcatcher]

Thai Buddhism------------------Business as Usual.

[cumgranosalum]

Tigers die of natural causes.

Part them out and sell them.

very sensible,profitable also.

Instead of being part of the solution you are part of the problem.

All of the confiscated items from tiger amulets, tiger carcasses, skins, etc. should be itemized and photographed for the criminal trial of these three. Save a few samples for the trial, but every remaining confiscated item should be burned and destroyed so that not one single item can be resold. This is the only way to help stop perpetuating this heinous problem.

Bravo to the National Parks, Wildlife and Plants Conservation Department, police and army personnel! Keep it up until every one of these crooks is behind bars.

I'm sure you mean well, but that is naive. The root of the problem is the demand in China, not the supply. Chinese demand will exist regardless because of their deep-rooted superstitions, which is part of their culture and fairly ineradicable (unfortunately). If the supply reduces, then the price of animal parts will get higher, and the demand will only increase because of the scarcity cachet. Criminalising both the supply and the demand only pushes it underground - a lesson that was clear from alcohol prohibition in the 1920s. In any case, if tigers became completely extinct, then the trade would transfer onto another species.

This is the truly heinous problem and it will not go away for a few generations. Blanket publicity campaigns in China could help vilify old-fashioned superstitions, but of course, there are high-ups in China too who have a vested interest in perpetuating this trade.

I don't join the torch-and-pitchfork brigade in ranting about this temple. Everybody knows the place - among many others - has been involved in trafficking. Not to do so would be for them to effectively burn money, and if you know anything about human nature, you'll know that people are good at convincing themselves that corruption is less immoral than poverty. But the thing is, there's a real moral dilemma for those advocating closing down all places that breed of tigers: the demand from China will then be satisfied by wild tigers, and that would be a much bigger catastrophe. Think carefully about what you wish for.

So you're saying that a valid excuse for the monks is something on the lines of....

"We had to do it, the Chinese kept asking us"

and the tourists who visited the place..........

"We had to go because we are too stupid to understand the numerous reports made on the place over the last 15 years"

and the DNP for not prosecuting before

"We couldn't do that because we thought the law didn't apply to monks""

[Trouble]

What a stain on Thailand...........................Temples and Monks have been tarnished these last few months, starting to look like a new high on the corruption scale for Thailand..................utterly shameful

If the people cannot see it then there is no hope for this country

I have said it before and I will say it again.............................there is no limit to the greed and ultimate twisted evil that men possess for power and money (riches) and fools with no morals or dignity follow like lemmings .......we believe

Have a friend who was a monk for 6 months and seems like many of the monks find that they can make good money by being a monk. The money they get for weddings, blessing a house, business, etc. is all just income for the individual monk. Many do not turn it over to the temple for good works but just keep it for themselves. Men of religion who take money from individuals are just crooks when the money is not put to charitable work. It can be a very profitable business as we see from all the scandals that hit the news and I would bet it is just the tip of the iceberg.

[CantSpell]

With these recent disclosures Prayut will need to wait two lifetimes before allowing prosecution of monks from this wat.

Aye, 2 days in the news worldwide and not a single word from the PM to condemn that sad story....

Says it all really...

Seems he must like monks whatever they do...

Edited June 3, 2016 by CantSpell

[biplanebluey]

Conservation Rhetoric Falls Apart as 1,000 Magic Tiger Amulets Seized From Monk (Photos)

KANCHANABURI — Nine tiger fangs, more than 1,000 amulets containing tiger skin and dozens of jars filled with dead animals and animal parts were found this afternoon in a pick-up truck driven out of the Tiger Temple by a monk and two disciples.

While officials continued to catalog the horrors hidden within, the seizure of a large stock of mystical amulets containing actual tiger parts being taken out of the temple by a monk furthers the impression that the worst kind of trafficking was going on at a place that marketed itself worldwide as a friend to wildlife.

Full story: http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1464860913&typecate=06&section=

-- Khaosod English 2016-06-03

[biplanebluey]

Conservation Rhetoric Falls Apart as 1,000 Magic Tiger Amulets Seized From Monk (Photos)

KANCHANABURI — Nine tiger fangs, more than 1,000 amulets containing tiger skin and dozens of jars filled with dead animals and animal parts were found this afternoon in a pick-up truck driven out of the Tiger Temple by a monk and two disciples.

While officials continued to catalog the horrors hidden within, the seizure of a large stock of mystical amulets containing actual tiger parts being taken out of the temple by a monk furthers the impression that the worst kind of trafficking was going on at a place that marketed itself worldwide as a friend to wildlife.

Full story: http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1464860913&typecate=06&section=

-- Khaosod English 2016-06-03

TIGER SKINS !!!!!--------- Good place to hide a monk

[Balance]

Have these poor excuses for human beings been locked up yet?

[dageurreotype]

With these recent disclosures Prayut will need to wait two lifetimes before allowing prosecution of monks from this wat.

Aye, 2 days in the news worldwide and not a single word from the PM to condemn that sad story....

Says it all really...

Seems he must like monks whatever they do...

Indeed. What's happened to his strong stance on 'Insulting Buddhism'??

[ddavidovsky]

I'm sure you mean well, but that is naive. The root of the problem is the demand in China, not the supply. Chinese demand will exist regardless because of their deep-rooted superstitions, which is part of their culture and fairly ineradicable (unfortunately). If the supply reduces, then the price of animal parts will get higher, and the demand will only increase because of the scarcity cachet. Criminalising both the supply and the demand only pushes it underground - a lesson that was clear from alcohol prohibition in the 1920s. In any case, if tigers became completely extinct, then the trade would transfer onto another species.

This is the truly heinous problem and it will not go away for a few generations. Blanket publicity campaigns in China could help vilify old-fashioned superstitions, but of course, there are high-ups in China too who have a vested interest in perpetuating this trade.

I don't join the torch-and-pitchfork brigade in ranting about this temple. Everybody knows the place - among many others - has been involved in trafficking. Not to do so would be for them to effectively burn money, and if you know anything about human nature, you'll know that people are good at convincing themselves that corruption is less immoral than poverty. But the thing is, there's a real moral dilemma for those advocating closing down all places that breed of tigers: the demand from China will then be satisfied by wild tigers, and that would be a much bigger catastrophe. Think carefully about what you wish for.

So you're saying that a valid excuse for the monks is something on the lines of....

"We had to do it, the Chinese kept asking us"

and the tourists who visited the place..........

"We had to go because we are too stupid to understand the numerous reports made on the place over the last 15 years"

and the DNP for not prosecuting before

"We couldn't do that because we thought the law didn't apply to monks""

I was saying that the excuse of all parties is that 'they are only human'. If you fail to understand human nature (ie. frailty) then you are really not helping at all. I'm offering a bigger and more balanced perspective than dogmatic outrage. You want to do something to help the tigers but you are barking up the wrong tree. One has to be realistic because naivety on the issue, as I showed, will only prove catastrophic for wild populations, and it is the wild populations I care about, not the farmed animals.

Consider these facts:

1. These tigers are bred in and for captivity - they are certainly beautiful and majestic, but they are 'man-made' and have no more 'natural integrity' than sheep. They are husbanded by man for man's purposes. Some of them are even hybrids.

2. Tigers are relatively easy to breed in captivity.

3. The existence of 'man-made' tigers has no deleterious effect on wild populations.

4. In fact, the existence of 'man-made' tigers helps protect wild populations by buffering the trade in animal parts (which unfortunately is likely to be ineradicable).

Of course, it's inadmissible to make the trade legal, just as we don't make drugs or prostitution legal - we just have to put up with this and soldier on until demand is suppressed in China (that is, DEMAND, because suppressing SUPPLY doesn't work - get it?). I have suggested a way of suppressing demand and I suggest that everyone also campaigns to that end.

[antiscam]

Buddhism is not the "religion" many people describe. There are many monk who are dirty scammers and who use the religion to make money and be protected

[cumgranosalum]

I'm sure you mean well, but that is naive. The root of the problem is the demand in China, not the supply. Chinese demand will exist regardless because of their deep-rooted superstitions, which is part of their culture and fairly ineradicable (unfortunately). If the supply reduces, then the price of animal parts will get higher, and the demand will only increase because of the scarcity cachet. Criminalising both the supply and the demand only pushes it underground - a lesson that was clear from alcohol prohibition in the 1920s. In any case, if tigers became completely extinct, then the trade would transfer onto another species.

This is the truly heinous problem and it will not go away for a few generations. Blanket publicity campaigns in China could help vilify old-fashioned superstitions, but of course, there are high-ups in China too who have a vested interest in perpetuating this trade.

I don't join the torch-and-pitchfork brigade in ranting about this temple. Everybody knows the place - among many others - has been involved in trafficking. Not to do so would be for them to effectively burn money, and if you know anything about human nature, you'll know that people are good at convincing themselves that corruption is less immoral than poverty. But the thing is, there's a real moral dilemma for those advocating closing down all places that breed of tigers: the demand from China will then be satisfied by wild tigers, and that would be a much bigger catastrophe. Think carefully about what you wish for.

So you're saying that a valid excuse for the monks is something on the lines of....

"We had to do it, the Chinese kept asking us"

and the tourists who visited the place..........

"We had to go because we are too stupid to understand the numerous reports made on the place over the last 15 years"

and the DNP for not prosecuting before

"We couldn't do that because we thought the law didn't apply to monks""

I was saying that the excuse of all parties is that 'they are only human'. If you fail to understand human nature (ie. frailty) then you are really not helping at all. I'm offering a bigger and more balanced perspective than dogmatic outrage. You want to do something to help the tigers but you are barking up the wrong tree. One has to be realistic because naivety on the issue, as I showed, will only prove catastrophic for wild populations, and it is the wild populations I care about, not the farmed animals.

Consider these facts:

1. These tigers are bred in and for captivity - they are certainly beautiful and majestic, but they are 'man-made' and have no more 'natural integrity' than sheep. They are husbanded by man for man's purposes. Some of them are even hybrids.

2. Tigers are relatively easy to breed in captivity.

3. The existence of 'man-made' tigers has no deleterious effect on wild populations.

4. In fact, the existence of 'man-made' tigers helps protect wild populations by buffering the trade in animal parts (which unfortunately is likely to be ineradicable).

Of course, it's inadmissible to make the trade legal, just as we don't make drugs or prostitution legal - we just have to put up with this and soldier on until demand is suppressed in China (that is, DEMAND, because suppressing SUPPLY doesn't work - get it?). I have suggested a way of suppressing demand and I suggest that everyone also campaigns to that end.

you appear to have come up with an arbitrary set of premises by yourself without any reference whatsoever to the huge amount of information concerning both tigers in particular -

1 - no - they don'T necessarily serve "man's purpose" - this is an artificial definition made up by yourself.

2 -they can be bred in captivity but normally to the detriment of the females - health - they actually require very careful management for "successful" breeding - the temple is an example of the mess breeding can result in. the very existence of hybrids and eve the remotest chance they might breed with a wild tiger or enter the gene-pool in any way is a eco-disaster waiting to happen

3 - Wrong - they have a monumental effect of both perception and value of tigers in the wild - the public incorrectly link captive tigers like this to conservation

4 - absolutely not - far from buffering trade they actually increase the desire and value for REAL WILD tigers and are of course cheaper if caught in the wild too.

demand on the scale of today is a new thing the Chinese TCM nearly died out in China last century and largely due to poor education.

Basically you seem pretty ill-informed on the issues and think by citing some schoolboy economic you can make a point - that point is that you really don't understand the problem

[Balance]

Tigers die of natural causes.

Part them out and sell them.

very sensible,profitable also.

Instead of being part of the solution you are part of the problem.

All of the confiscated items from tiger amulets, tiger carcasses, skins, etc. should be itemized and photographed for the criminal trial of these three. Save a few samples for the trial, but every remaining confiscated item should be burned and destroyed so that not one single item can be resold. This is the only way to help stop perpetuating this heinous problem.

Bravo to the National Parks, Wildlife and Plants Conservation Department, police and army personnel! Keep it up until every one of these crooks is behind bars.

I'm sure you mean well, but that is naive. The root of the problem is the demand in China, not the supply. Chinese demand will exist regardless because of their deep-rooted superstitions, which is part of their culture and fairly ineradicable (unfortunately). If the supply reduces, then the price of animal parts will get higher, and the demand will only increase because of the scarcity cachet. Criminalising both the supply and the demand only pushes it underground - a lesson that was clear from alcohol prohibition in the 1920s. In any case, if tigers became completely extinct, then the trade would transfer onto another species.

This is the truly heinous problem and it will not go away for a few generations. Blanket publicity campaigns in China could help vilify old-fashioned superstitions, but of course, there are high-ups in China too who have a vested interest in perpetuating this trade.

I don't join the torch-and-pitchfork brigade in ranting about this temple. Everybody knows the place - among many others - has been involved in trafficking. Not to do so would be for them to effectively burn money, and if you know anything about human nature, you'll know that people are good at convincing themselves that corruption is less immoral than poverty. But the thing is, there's a real moral dilemma for those advocating closing down all places that breed of tigers: the demand from China will then be satisfied by wild tigers, and that would be a much bigger catastrophe. Think carefully about what you wish for.

Why are the Chinese not breeding Tigers to satisfy this prurient need?

[The Deerhunter]

What has happened to Buddism in Thailand?

I have lost all faith respect for anything to do with monks/temples e.t.c.

MONEY is all monks care about these days MONEY.

Who can get the most money either legally or illegally.

Nothing matters to monks anymore except getting more money than the next monk.

Money from credit unions, money from cheating people, money from keeping/ killing endangered animals.

Have a good hard think about what the Buddhist administrators would think are the most important qualities that a monk has to exhibit before being promoted. Could a success in fund raising have anything to do with it, do you think? There has to be a point where fundraising for the good of one's religion might morph into something less desirable, outright exploitation, extortion and charity by fear. It has happened around the world over the centuries in countless religions. If someone "proved himself" in the role of a fundraiser then a lot of administrators over the centuries have been guilty of promoting that person for all the right reasons but all the morally wrong results. But this could never happen here, could it?

[Krataiboy]

A tiger Auschwitz. How much longer is Thailand going to tolerate the depravity of its religious leaders?

[biplanebluey]

Catalogue everything illegal burn it then demolish the temple as it was used for nothing else but a money making exercise to profit off the suffering and exploitation of these beautiful animals.

Nothing to do with the Buddhist faith and for those who have lost their jobs well off to the bangkok Hilton to reflect on what cruelty they have inflicted on these noble beasts for some superstitious beliefs ,

Absolutely right, there will be a lot of true Buddhists disgusted in the behaviour of these people. A little jail time and confiscation of assets gained will serve as a good example to others.

It is good to see the authorities acting decisively on this, even to the point of installing a road block to catch this "Monk" and his accomplices trying to flee with goods.

An education to the idiots who believe these superstitions about "magic" tiger amulets and ridiculous medicines would also be warranted.

Why is it that these so called super medicines are all obtained from dangerous and / or endangered animals? Why can it not be the magic amulet comes from a pickled earthworm? There are plenty of idiots in the World who believe anything.

I am going to collect Mosquitoes.I believe that a dead mozzie in a tiny glass tube ,if hung round the neck on a string painted orange (SAFFRON) and talked to every once an hour will protect you medically from any parts of your body causing you problems,ie: heart,lungs,kidneys,eyes,tongue,bones and skin complaints. This is going to be my poverty salvation

[ddavidovsky]

I'm sure you mean well, but that is naive. The root of the problem is the demand in China, not the supply. Chinese demand will exist regardless because of their deep-rooted superstitions, which is part of their culture and fairly ineradicable (unfortunately). If the supply reduces, then the price of animal parts will get higher, and the demand will only increase because of the scarcity cachet. Criminalising both the supply and the demand only pushes it underground - a lesson that was clear from alcohol prohibition in the 1920s. In any case, if tigers became completely extinct, then the trade would transfer onto another species.

This is the truly heinous problem and it will not go away for a few generations. Blanket publicity campaigns in China could help vilify old-fashioned superstitions, but of course, there are high-ups in China too who have a vested interest in perpetuating this trade.

I don't join the torch-and-pitchfork brigade in ranting about this temple. Everybody knows the place - among many others - has been involved in trafficking. Not to do so would be for them to effectively burn money, and if you know anything about human nature, you'll know that people are good at convincing themselves that corruption is less immoral than poverty. But the thing is, there's a real moral dilemma for those advocating closing down all places that breed of tigers: the demand from China will then be satisfied by wild tigers, and that would be a much bigger catastrophe. Think carefully about what you wish for.

So you're saying that a valid excuse for the monks is something on the lines of....

"We had to do it, the Chinese kept asking us"

and the tourists who visited the place..........

"We had to go because we are too stupid to understand the numerous reports made on the place over the last 15 years"

and the DNP for not prosecuting before

"We couldn't do that because we thought the law didn't apply to monks""

I was saying that the excuse of all parties is that 'they are only human'. If you fail to understand human nature (ie. frailty) then you are really not helping at all. I'm offering a bigger and more balanced perspective than dogmatic outrage. You want to do something to help the tigers but you are barking up the wrong tree. One has to be realistic because naivety on the issue, as I showed, will only prove catastrophic for wild populations, and it is the wild populations I care about, not the farmed animals.

Consider these facts:

1. These tigers are bred in and for captivity - they are certainly beautiful and majestic, but they are 'man-made' and have no more 'natural integrity' than sheep. They are husbanded by man for man's purposes. Some of them are even hybrids.

2. Tigers are relatively easy to breed in captivity.

3. The existence of 'man-made' tigers has no deleterious effect on wild populations.

4. In fact, the existence of 'man-made' tigers helps protect wild populations by buffering the trade in animal parts (which unfortunately is likely to be ineradicable).

Of course, it's inadmissible to make the trade legal, just as we don't make drugs or prostitution legal - we just have to put up with this and soldier on until demand is suppressed in China (that is, DEMAND, because suppressing SUPPLY doesn't work - get it?). I have suggested a way of suppressing demand and I suggest that everyone also campaigns to that end.

you appear to have come up with an arbitrary set of premises by yourself without any reference whatsoever to the huge amount of information concerning both tigers in particular -

1 - no - they don'T necessarily serve "man's purpose" - this is an artificial definition made up by yourself.

2 -they can be bred in captivity but normally to the detriment of the females - health - they actually require very careful management for "successful" breeding - the temple is an example of the mess breeding can result in. the very existence of hybrids and eve the remotest chance they might breed with a wild tiger or enter the gene-pool in any way is a eco-disaster waiting to happen

3 - Wrong - they have a monumental effect of both perception and value of tigers in the wild - the public incorrectly link captive tigers like this to conservation

4 - absolutely not - far from buffering trade they actually increase the desire and value for REAL WILD tigers and are of course cheaper if caught in the wild too.

demand on the scale of today is a new thing the Chinese TCM nearly died out in China last century and largely due to poor education.

Basically you seem pretty ill-informed on the issues and think by citing some schoolboy economic you can make a point - that point is that you really don't understand the problem

So you have argued yourself into the position that the breeding of all tigers should be banned worldwide (and, to be consistent, you would have to apply that to all endangered species). Get real. That isn't going to happen, and if it did, it would certainly condemn the remaining wild populations to extinction from poaching. Your opinions are reckless and dangerous and I feel sorry for wild tigers if this is the quality of the reasoning of those who seek to protect them.

[cumgranosalum]

Tigers die of natural causes.

Part them out and sell them.

very sensible,profitable also.

Instead of being part of the solution you are part of the problem.

All of the confiscated items from tiger amulets, tiger carcasses, skins, etc. should be itemized and photographed for the criminal trial of these three. Save a few samples for the trial, but every remaining confiscated item should be burned and destroyed so that not one single item can be resold. This is the only way to help stop perpetuating this heinous problem.

Bravo to the National Parks, Wildlife and Plants Conservation Department, police and army personnel! Keep it up until every one of these crooks is behind bars.

I'm sure you mean well, but that is naive. The root of the problem is the demand in China, not the supply. Chinese demand will exist regardless because of their deep-rooted superstitions, which is part of their culture and fairly ineradicable (unfortunately). If the supply reduces, then the price of animal parts will get higher, and the demand will only increase because of the scarcity cachet. Criminalising both the supply and the demand only pushes it underground - a lesson that was clear from alcohol prohibition in the 1920s. In any case, if tigers became completely extinct, then the trade would transfer onto another species.

This is the truly heinous problem and it will not go away for a few generations. Blanket publicity campaigns in China could help vilify old-fashioned superstitions, but of course, there are high-ups in China too who have a vested interest in perpetuating this trade.

I don't join the torch-and-pitchfork brigade in ranting about this temple. Everybody knows the place - among many others - has been involved in trafficking. Not to do so would be for them to effectively burn money, and if you know anything about human nature, you'll know that people are good at convincing themselves that corruption is less immoral than poverty. But the thing is, there's a real moral dilemma for those advocating closing down all places that breed of tigers: the demand from China will then be satisfied by wild tigers, and that would be a much bigger catastrophe. Think carefully about what you wish for.

Why are the Chinese not breeding Tigers to satisfy this prurient need?

Although China has on paper agreed to close them, there are tiger farms all over China.......they use the same speed breeding techniques the temple is alleged to have used, they usually have a "winery" at the back so they ca bottle the animal parts - if you turn up at the right time you can watch as the tigers rip a live cow to bits too.

the fact is that the availability of tiger parts is CREATING a market - based on TCM superstition and ignorance. There is a premium for tiger parts that allegedly come straight from the wild too - so that increases the bounty on the heads of wild tigers.

TCM demands the parts of many, many endangered flora and fauna, not just the tigers - whole population of creatures are being devastated by this madness - the only way is to stop the madness. The trade is run by the same people who smuggle drugs, animals people etc they are only interested in huge profits and if the demand dries up - which it has before the trade will cease.

[cumgranosalum]

So you're saying that a valid excuse for the monks is something on the lines of....

d it will not go away for a few generations. Blanket publicity campaigns in China could help vilify old-fashioned superstitions, but of course, there are high-ups in China too who have a vested interest in perpetuating this trade.

I don't join the torch-and-pitchfork brigade in ranting about this temple. Everybody knows the place - among many others - has been involved in trafficking. Not to do so would be for them to effectively burn money, and if you know anything about human nature, you'll know that people are good at convincing themselves that corruption is less immoral than poverty. But the thing is, there's a real moral dilemma for those advocating closing down all places that breed of tigers: the demand from China will then be satisfied by wild tigers, and that would be a much bigger catastrophe. Think carefully about what you wish for.

"We had to do it, the Chinese kept asking us"

and the tourists who visited the place..........

"We had to go because we are too stupid to understand the numerous reports made on the place over the last 15 years"

and the DNP for not prosecuting before

"We couldn't do that because we thought the law didn't apply to monks""

I was saying that the excuse of all parties is that 'they are only human'. If you fail to understand human nature (ie. frailty) then you are really not helping at all. I'm offering a bigger and more balanced perspective than dogmatic outrage. You want to do something to help the tigers but you are barking up the wrong tree. One has to be realistic because naivety on the issue, as I showed, will only prove catastrophic for wild populations, and it is the wild populations I care about, not the farmed animals.

Consider these facts:

1. These tigers are bred in and for captivity - they are certainly beautiful and majestic, but they are 'man-made' and have no more 'natural integrity' than sheep. They are husbanded by man for man's purposes. Some of them are even hybrids.

2. Tigers are relatively easy to breed in captivity.

3. The existence of 'man-made' tigers has no deleterious effect on wild populations.

4. In fact, the existence of 'man-made' tigers helps protect wild populations by buffering the trade in animal parts (which unfortunately is likely to be ineradicable).

Of course, it's inadmissible to make the trade legal, just as we don't make drugs or prostitution legal - we just have to put up with this and soldier on until demand is suppressed in China (that is, DEMAND, because suppressing SUPPLY doesn't work - get it?). I have suggested a way of suppressing demand and I suggest that everyone also campaigns to that end.

you appear to have come up with an arbitrary set of premises by yourself without any reference whatsoever to the huge amount of information concerning both tigers in particular -

1 - no - they don'T necessarily serve "man's purpose" - this is an artificial definition made up by yourself.

2 -they can be bred in captivity but normally to the detriment of the females - health - they actually require very careful management for "successful" breeding - the temple is an example of the mess breeding can result in. the very existence of hybrids and eve the remotest chance they might breed with a wild tiger or enter the gene-pool in any way is a eco-disaster waiting to happen

3 - Wrong - they have a monumental effect of both perception and value of tigers in the wild - the public incorrectly link captive tigers like this to conservation

4 - absolutely not - far from buffering trade they actually increase the desire and value for REAL WILD tigers and are of course cheaper if caught in the wild too.

demand on the scale of today is a new thing the Chinese TCM nearly died out in China last century and largely due to poor education.

Basically you seem pretty ill-informed on the issues and think by citing some schoolboy economic you can make a point - that point is that you really don't understand the problem

So you have argued yourself into the position that the breeding of all tigers should be banned worldwide (and, to be consistent, you would have to apply that to all endangered species). Get real. That isn't going to happen, and if it did, it would certainly condemn the remaining wild populations to extinction from poaching. Your opinions are reckless and dangerous and I feel sorry for wild tigers if this is the quality of the reasoning of those who seek to protect them.

I'm sorry but you don't have a clue - I have argued for a ban of the trade in endangered species as per CITES - who, I'll wager, are a lot more real and better informed than yourself.

[ddavidovsky]

By the way - quit the Buddhism bashing. Buddhism in Thailand is so vast that there are bound to be some rotten apples. Get over it. To condemn the entire philosophy and all the millions of sincere people who are guided by Buddhism because of some high-profile corruption is not even Bayesian inference, it's just crass.

[sweatalot]

Joust one other question.

During all those years off operation and so many western volunteers why wasn't this exposed years ago?

Surely someone somehow must have seen something.

I know there were calls from conservation groups but a volunteer with direct access must have had some idea about the mistreatment going.

There have been may many calls for this temple of death to be shut down, but Thailand has the laws of deformation and computer crimes that are used against any and all that interfere or make noise against the money machine.

It matters not the truth of an allegation but rather you made me look bad, you made me loose face, and so you will be sued and dragged through court, bank accounts frozen, death threats, harassment, and if your a falang deported after everything you own has been seized.

Talk about reform, have a look at the judicial system and how it is manipulated by the powerful at the price of justice.

Unfortunately I would guess that following the money trail to fined the people that pocketed millions from this evil will just not happen, only a few low sacrificial heads will roll and no one of "influence" will be called to account.

Yet another black mark on the country for the profit of a few.

"Thailand has the laws of deformation "

I did not know that. But I am not surprised either

[elgordo38]

What has happened to Buddism in Thailand?

I have lost all faith respect for anything to do with monks/temples e.t.c.

MONEY is all monks care about these days MONEY.

Who can get the most money either legally or illegally.

Nothing matters to monks anymore except getting more money than the next monk.

Money from credit unions, money from cheating people, money from keeping/ killing endangered animals.

They are just joining the ranks of greed that proliferates in the world today. Religions in every sense of the word are big businesses today. The reverse Robin Hood effect. At one time they gave the people succor now your considered just another sucker.

[ddavidovsky]

I was saying that the excuse of all parties is that 'they are only human'. If you fail to understand human nature (ie. frailty) then you are really not helping at all. I'm offering a bigger and more balanced perspective than dogmatic outrage. You want to do something to help the tigers but you are barking up the wrong tree. One has to be realistic because naivety on the issue, as I showed, will only prove catastrophic for wild populations, and it is the wild populations I care about, not the farmed animals.

Consider these facts:

1. These tigers are bred in and for captivity - they are certainly beautiful and majestic, but they are 'man-made' and have no more 'natural integrity' than sheep. They are husbanded by man for man's purposes. Some of them are even hybrids.

2. Tigers are relatively easy to breed in captivity.

3. The existence of 'man-made' tigers has no deleterious effect on wild populations.

4. In fact, the existence of 'man-made' tigers helps protect wild populations by buffering the trade in animal parts (which unfortunately is likely to be ineradicable).

Of course, it's inadmissible to make the trade legal, just as we don't make drugs or prostitution legal - we just have to put up with this and soldier on until demand is suppressed in China (that is, DEMAND, because suppressing SUPPLY doesn't work - get it?). I have suggested a way of suppressing demand and I suggest that everyone also campaigns to that end.

you appear to have come up with an arbitrary set of premises by yourself without any reference whatsoever to the huge amount of information concerning both tigers in particular -

1 - no - they don'T necessarily serve "man's purpose" - this is an artificial definition made up by yourself.

2 -they can be bred in captivity but normally to the detriment of the females - health - they actually require very careful management for "successful" breeding - the temple is an example of the mess breeding can result in. the very existence of hybrids and eve the remotest chance they might breed with a wild tiger or enter the gene-pool in any way is a eco-disaster waiting to happen

3 - Wrong - they have a monumental effect of both perception and value of tigers in the wild - the public incorrectly link captive tigers like this to conservation

4 - absolutely not - far from buffering trade they actually increase the desire and value for REAL WILD tigers and are of course cheaper if caught in the wild too.

demand on the scale of today is a new thing the Chinese TCM nearly died out in China last century and largely due to poor education.

Basically you seem pretty ill-informed on the issues and think by citing some schoolboy economic you can make a point - that point is that you really don't understand the problem

So you have argued yourself into the position that the breeding of all tigers should be banned worldwide (and, to be consistent, you would have to apply that to all endangered species). Get real. That isn't going to happen, and if it did, it would certainly condemn the remaining wild populations to extinction from poaching. Your opinions are reckless and dangerous and I feel sorry for wild tigers if this is the quality of the reasoning of those who seek to protect them.

I'm sorry but you don't have a clue - I have argued for a ban of the trade in endangered species as per CITES - who, I'll wager, are a lot more real and better informed than yourself.

Sorry but that's pathetic, like declaring that corruption is banned. The trade is already banned, and of course it has only pushed it underground. Seems that "CITES" doesn't understand human nature either.

The only way to tackle the problem is to reduce demand by making the trade 'unfashionable' within China. That will take massive publicity funding both in schools and on mainstream television at prime time but at least it should have an effect on the next generation.

[thaiduncankk]

By the way - quit the Buddhism bashing. Buddhism in Thailand is so vast that there are bound to be some rotten apples. Get over it. To condemn the entire philosophy and all the millions of sincere people who are guided by Buddhism because of some high-profile corruption is not even Bayesian inference, it's just crass.

Rather than suggest there are 'some rotton apples', I would suggest there are 'some good apples' that actually take it seriously.

[Kasset Tak]

Tigers die of natural causes.

Part them out and sell them.

very sensible,profitable also.

Instead of being part of the solution you are part of the problem.

All of the confiscated items from tiger amulets, tiger carcasses, skins, etc. should be itemized and photographed for the criminal trial of these three. Save a few samples for the trial, but every remaining confiscated item should be burned and destroyed so that not one single item can be resold. This is the only way to help stop perpetuating this heinous problem.

Bravo to the National Parks, Wildlife and Plants Conservation Department, police and army personnel! Keep it up until every one of these crooks is behind bars.

The problem is that there is a demand on tiger bones, rhino horns and ivory just as examples. If there would be a legal, controled trade of animal parts from animals in capitvity then the illegal, uncontroled trade with parts from wild animals would not be that lucruative and then hopefully stop.

Just look at SEA and China, people here like ivory. Now Kenya has burned about 12 ton confiscated illegal ivory, if they woulkd have been alowed to sell that legaly to for example Thailand then the Kenyan government would have made money (in 2014 it was 2,200 USD/kg and rising so around 25-50 milion USD) to invest in the wild life conservation. The elephants are already dead and burning of the ivory will not bring the dead elephants back but the money that it could have generated could have helped saved those elephants that are left from poachers in 2 ways, as the price drops the poachers dont earn as much and the government has the money to buy new weapons (old rifles and AK47s against poachers with high powerd sniper rifles and machineguns) and wheicles (old jeeps against poachers in helicopters) for the parkrangers to protect the elephants that are left.

Think about this: for a poacher in Africa 1 (one) rhino horn fetch enough money to feed a family for 1 year... with that kind of money the only way to stop poaching is to get the price down because ther will always be a demand for rhino horn somewhere and the price will only go up and up and make it more lucrative to kill rhinos as long as it gets harder and harder to find rhino horn on the market.

[kannot]

Oh ohhhhhhhhhhhhh what a surprise, tip of the iceberg rotten to the core.

[jacko45k]

A shame to the religion... close it, bulldoze it.

[kannot]

What a stain on Thailand...........................Temples and Monks have been tarnished these last few months, starting to look like a new high on the corruption scale for Thailand..................utterly shameful

If the people cannot see it then there is no hope for this country

I have said it before and I will say it again.............................there is no limit to the greed and ultimate twisted evil that men possess for power and money (riches) and fools with no morals or dignity follow like lemmings .......we believe

"believe" being the magic word as of course it does "no harm".........tip of a massive iceberg