US Muslims draw inspiration from Ali's fight for his faith

[webfact]

US Muslims draw inspiration from Ali's fight for his faith
By JEFF KAROUB

DETROIT (AP) — Even in his final months, Muhammad Ali was speaking out on behalf of Islam, the religion he so famously embraced in the 1960s by changing his name and refusing to fight in the Vietnam War.

In December, the boxing legend issued a statement criticizing Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump's proposal to ban Muslims from entering the United States. Ali called on fellow Muslims to "stand up to those who use Islam to advance their own personal agenda."

Ali, who died Friday at 74, endured public scorn when he joined the Nation of Islam as a young athlete. Decades later, long after he had achieved worldwide renown, he kept advocating for Muslims in the U.S. who felt their religion made them political targets.

"American Muslims would be well-served to look at the challenges that Muslims such as Malcolm X and Muhammad Ali had to deal with," said Dawud Walid, executive director of the Michigan chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations.

Ali's lesson "from that difficult period is that although he was criticized and marginalized for his beliefs, there were many people who were not Muslim that came to his defense," said Walid, who is black and Muslim.

"There are people in America today of goodwill who are not Muslim who are willing to stand with us. But we have to be the ones who have to be courageous and stand up for ourselves and be unapologetically Muslim and American."

Ali's persistence both inside and outside the ring won over many critics, according to Walid and other Muslims. While detractors didn't always agree with him, many came to respect his principled stands.

Muslims in particular praised his humanitarian work, which included lending his name and time to numerous relief campaigns and helping to secure the release of American hostages in Iraq.

Born Cassius Clay in a segregated Louisville, Kentucky, Ali angered many Americans when he refused to fight in Vietnam. But in 2005, he was awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom by President George W. Bush.

Lyndon Bilal, commander of the Muslim American Veterans Association, said through his "love, character and courage," Ali had "always been a friend of soldiers and America."

His long list of admirers includes many other athletes, especially other Muslims. Detroit Lions running back Ameer Abdullah said Ali's devotion to Islam "will always be an inspiration for me."

"Ali was a true ambassador for the Islamic community for his courage and devotion to his faith through very trying times," Abdullah said in a statement to The Associated Press. He "carried himself with absolute dignity when standing up for his faith in trying circumstances."

Imam Abdullah El-Amin, founder and board chairman of the Muslim Center in Detroit, said Ali lost millions of dollars in potential earnings when, at the peak of his career, he was banned from boxing for 3½ years for "refusing to give up his religion" and declaring himself a conscientious objector to the Vietnam War.

That episode, El-Amin said, "gave us a lot of courage."

Like many African-Americans, Ali's first foray into the faith was through the Nation of Islam, the black nationalist movement started in Detroit. He joined others in moving to a more integrated, traditional form of Islam in the 1970s.

In the 1980s, El-Amin said he and Ali attended many of the same meetings for humanitarian groups and events in Detroit and Chicago, including visits to Ali's home. He remembers Ali for his "gentle spirit and generosity" but also as a merry magic prankster who would pretend to levitate but reveal to impressed guests how he did it, lest anyone think he was some type of "guru."

Walid, who was to lead prayers for Ali on Sunday at a Detroit mosque Ali visited, remembers when Ali came into his home — in the form of an action figure. As a child in the 1970s, Walid said he was "just having fun playing with toys," but the doll from his parents proved to be a "subtle" influence on his eventual journey to Islam.

"It not only made Muslims and Islam into something not threatening but actually ... a type of nobility," Walid said. "That continued with me."

Ali "represented to me what it meant to be a Muslim man — at a very young age."

One of Ali's final messages was defending his faith. Trump's comments, Ali said, "alienated many from learning about Islam."

El-Amin described Trump's rhetoric as contributing to "hatred in our society," which Ali spent years battling against.

"People just wanted to look at him as a great fighter, but he was a great fighter for justice as well," El-Amin said. "The best thing we can do for him is talking about his humanitarian work in the world. At the same time, we have to talk about his pushing ... to enhance the human spirit. That's what he should be known for."


-- (c) Associated Press 2016-06-06

[daoyai]

He will be remembered by most people for his skills in violence (boxing) not his obsurd superstition(religion) RIP champ.

[piersbeckett]

I agree with you that religious belief now, with all the information available to suggest the dominance of the 'big bang theory' and 'human evolution' over the 'by intelligent design' theory is absurd but you have to remember that Ali was anti-establishment (a boat rocker) and a black man (although he did have some white antecedence) born in 'segregated' Louisville, Kentucky. He probably believed that, at that time in the USA, Islam was a purer form of monotheistic religion than Christianity and especially appealing, a black sect.

Although Georges Lemaitre's notation regarding the possibility of an expanding universe being traced back in time to an originating single point was made in 1927, it was only in 1965 that cosmic microwave background radiation was discovered further advancing the evidence of the big bang model.

Edited June 6, 2016 by piersbeckett

[klauskunkel]

Ali called on fellow Muslims to "stand up to those who use Islam to advance their own personal agenda."

to clarify: Not only Donald Trump, but also ISIS, Al Qaeda, Taliban, Hezbollah and the nations that create and support them..., so, all Muslims stand up to those, please.

[Ace of Pop]

It's Casius Clay really who ducked out of Nam Call Up by going Muslim,lest we foreget.

[Thaidream]

Muhammad Ali is not a draft dodger. He never ran away. He was opposed to the Vietnam War just as I was . Ali stood up for his beliefs and fought the government through the courts. They took away his right to earn a living and tried to jail him. He ultimately won in court but lost millions from not being able to pursue his boxing career for 3 years. He was a man of principle and one that I admired. I wish I had his principles and fought against the war. Instead, I caved in and went. I always knew it would end in failure and every time I look at the memorial wall in D.C which has over 50K names of those who died- I shed a tear. Like Ali said " I ain't got nothing against them Viet Cong." If only the American leaders would have listened.

[sawadeeken]

THIS QUOTED FROM ORIGINAL POST.........................

"There are people in America today of goodwill who are not Muslim who are willing to stand with us. But we have to be the ones who have to be courageous and stand up for ourselves and be unapologetically Muslim and American."

"unapologetically Muslim and American."

MY REPLY.........................

I am an AMERICAN........................................... I FEEL AN ALLEGIANCE TO 'AMERICA'............................

Allegiance is a necessity.... To be an American..........

If you want to be "Muslim and American", that is GREAT........... WELCOME

If you only want to be Muslim, and not American........... Then look elsewhere.......... NOT WELCOME

If any Muslims want to love 'America', (AS Americans do, then I (we) will welcome them with open arms...............

If they only want to 'use and abuse us' as too many have done, then forget it.

If they want to accept us 'Christians' and other religious groups as "EQUALS' and attempt to fit in with 'OUR' existing SOCIETY and WAYs (without changing it to their choosing)............... then please be WELCOME.........

When the Muslim men can give their women all the freedoms that American women commonly have in America, then WELCOME.

To go back in our history, way, way back, and quote a famous quotation ---- "DON'T TREAD ON ME".... Then, WELCOME

Personally I have travelled to over 90 countries in the world, and would not give my U.S. Passport for any one of them.

another thought: --- You can tell whether a place is desirable by whether people are sneaking 'INTO' or 'OUT OF' the place.

America may have loads of problems, But it is still more desirable than over 90 other countries......... and people are still sneaking or struggling to 'GET IN' ---- not the other way around..........

IMHO ------ (In My Humble Opinion)

[ThaiTony2]

This is a false story! Just yesterday in the news Ali's daughter said that it was never directed at Mr. Trump. This is how bad stories make problems.

[Johpa]

It's Casius Clay really who ducked out of Nam Call Up by going Muslim,lest we foreget.

Lest you forget that "Nam" was one of the first of the never ending wars fabricated by those who Dwight Eisenhower warned us about in his farewell speech. Even as a long time atheist, I can admire the conviction of Ali and his faith in Islam that opened his eyes to the absurdity of that conflict.

[arjunadawn]

Muhammad Ali is not a draft dodger. He never ran away. He was opposed to the Vietnam War just as I was . Ali stood up for his beliefs and fought the government through the courts. They took away his right to earn a living and tried to jail him. He ultimately won in court but lost millions from not being able to pursue his boxing career for 3 years. He was a man of principle and one that I admired. I wish I had his principles and fought against the war. Instead, I caved in and went. I always knew it would end in failure and every time I look at the memorial wall in D.C which has over 50K names of those who died- I shed a tear. Like Ali said " I ain't got nothing against them Viet Cong." If only the American leaders would have listened.

You offer a revisionist use of "dodger." Of course Ali dodged the draft. The narrow aspect of physically going here or there does not matter, what matters is going to the draft. He is a draft dodger- he did not go, period. He "stood up for his beliefs" correct, but they were not the tenets of the faith he claimed and hid behind- not sunni islam. Nope. It was a rejection of serving America. Ali dodged by seeking a conscientious objection- an islamic objection. An islamic objection that would have gotten him killed in nearly all other islamic states in all of history. He was not sufi he was sunni! Islam and sunni particularly have no arrangements for the "I feel" nonsense. It was a vacuous abuse of faith, but few were then wise enough to know better.

I do not join those who revise lives because a person is dead. Ali is many and extraordinary things. Humans are complex creatures and Ali's greatness can coexist with imperfections. In Clay V USA "the court said the record shows that [Ali's] beliefs are founded on tenets of the Muslim religion as he understands them" and overturned Ali's conviction for draft evasion- but it was overturned on a technicality- that the lower court did not include its reasoning- not the above verbiage added as fodder in the decision. Regardless, the ignorance of American justices is equal to the population they serve- sunni islam offers exemption from fighting but but such things as widows and disabled and dolts etc., not because a person self assigns a value to the war. Islam proscribes always following the leader as if acted in the stead of the prophet. Ali was full of crap on this point and any other who tries to walk this rationale through the American justice system would be equally lying.

Ali's conscientious objection found many friends in that era of America but it is little different than the religion of the Flying Spaghetti Monster saying they must wear colanders on their heads- Pastarfarians. He asserted a subjective mandate that was supposed to actually exist in scripture or authority- it did not!

Ali's views are not in evidence in islam except in limited areas, as noted above, and his life was a non stop testament against the very thing he asserted, however couched in sports he rationalized it.

"What do we really know? What type of muslim was Ali? Ali was a sunni muslim. Ali's was a conscientious objection to white America of the time. Period! Ali converted into the militant Nation of Islam, replete with all its military like accouterments. We know he said the following things:

Integration is wrong. We don’t want to live with the white man; that’s all.

No intelligent black man or black woman in his or her right black mind wants white boys and white girls coming to their homes to marry their black sons and daughters

My conscience won’t let me go shoot my brother, or some darker people, or some poor hungry people in the mud for big powerful America. And shoot them for what? They never called me nigger, they never lynched me, they didn’t put no dogs on me, they didn’t rob me of my nationality, rape and kill my mother and father. … Shoot them for what? How can I shoot them poor people? Just take me to jail."

Ali only converted to Sufi islam by 2005. I have met and spent time with Ali and other world sunni leaders. I am not an expert on Ali but he was not sufi in 2002. I was awed and mesmerized by him, but I also afford him his not great moments- the draft dodge is one, his racist remarks another. Ali's opposition was "white" people. On why he does not go to Vietnam.

"If I'm gonna die, I'll die right now, right here fighting you. ...if I'm gonna die. You my enemy! My enemy is the white people, not viet-congs, or chinese, or japanese."

Sufi have a very hard time in history but are often revered once if they do can persevere and obtain greatness or enlightenment. It is not surprising that in Ali's evolution he would later embrace sufi, as he mellowed, and aged- this is good, and understandable. But it is not true that Ali had refuge in this doctrine when he refused the draft. Ali refused the draft because he refused the draft. (Perhaps aging Cat Stevens will now retract his call for the death of another human being under the equally subjective permissions sunni islam allows for).

Sunni islam now embracing characteristics of Ali that are absolutely not essential tenets of their sect are ridiculous. They latch on to Ali's greatness because

1. His sports greatness is quite worthy

2. His overall life is commendable and peaceful

3. He continued his fights into his personal space and persevered with greatness

4. It enables CAIR and others to disassemble, imposing Ali's beliefs while sufi as representative of their views as sunni. CAIR is part and parcel of the Muslim Brotherhood, a sunni parent organ of AQ, ISIS, Islamic Jihad, and many other step children.

Ali's exemption for his faith is no different than the insistence religion demands a colander on their head. Ali wrapped his racism around faith to use it as a protective amulet. An idiot can see this. If islam is to war as Ali says it is... well...

RIP Ali. Good night.

Edited June 6, 2016 by arjunadawn

[ilostmypassword]

It's Casius Clay really who ducked out of Nam Call Up by going Muslim,lest we foreget.

Yeah. Islam got him out of what exactly? He went to prison for refusing to join the army. Lots of famous and/or well connected people used their connections to avoid serving in Vietnam. Ali chose not to.

Edited June 6, 2016 by ilostmypassword

[arjunadawn]

It's Casius Clay really who ducked out of Nam Call Up by going Muslim,lest we foreget.

Yeah. Islam got him out of what exactly? He went to prison for refusing to join the army. Lots of famous and/or well connected people used their connections to avoid serving in Vietnam. Ali chose not to.

Actually, what Ali did was worse. One was a bribe, the other a perverse Simony where Ali sold God, not coin, to act on the earth, not in heaven.

Ali's claim to islamic exemption is a lie, it was contrived en route to a successful legal battel. Ali objected to risking his life for America as white people were the real enemies. Ali's often and brutally clear public testimony make clear initially, faith had nothing to do with it. Race did. Object to that? Ok, its 100% correct though.

[ilostmypassword]

Muhammad Ali is not a draft dodger. He never ran away. He was opposed to the Vietnam War just as I was . Ali stood up for his beliefs and fought the government through the courts. They took away his right to earn a living and tried to jail him. He ultimately won in court but lost millions from not being able to pursue his boxing career for 3 years. He was a man of principle and one that I admired. I wish I had his principles and fought against the war. Instead, I caved in and went. I always knew it would end in failure and every time I look at the memorial wall in D.C which has over 50K names of those who died- I shed a tear. Like Ali said " I ain't got nothing against them Viet Cong." If only the American leaders would have listened.

You offer a revisionist use of "dodger." Of course Ali dodged the draft. The narrow aspect of physically going here or there does not matter, what matters is going to the draft. He is a draft dodger- he did not go, period. He "stood up for his beliefs" correct, but they were not the tenets of the faith he claimed and hid behind- not sunni islam. Nope. It was a rejection of serving America. Ali dodged by seeking a conscientious objection- an islamic objection. An islamic objection that would have gotten him killed in nearly all other islamic states in all of history. He was not sufi he was sunni! Islam and sunni particularly have no arrangements for the "I feel" nonsense. It was a vacuous abuse of faith, but few were then wise enough to know better.

I do not join those who revise lives because a person is dead. Ali is many and extraordinary things. Humans are complex creatures and Ali's greatness can coexist with imperfections. In Clay V USA "the court said the record shows that [Ali's] beliefs are founded on tenets of the Muslim religion as he understands them" and overturned Ali's conviction for draft evasion- but it was overturned on a technicality- that the lower court did not include its reasoning- not the above verbiage added as fodder in the decision. Regardless, the ignorance of American justices is equal to the population they serve- sunni islam offers excemption from fighting but but such things as widows and disabled and dolts etc., not because a person self assigns a value to the war. Islam proscribes always following the leader as if acted in the stead of the prophet. Ali was full of crap on this point and any other who tries to walk this rationale through the American justice system would be equally lying.

Ali's conscientious objection found many friends in that era of America but it is little different than the religion of the Flying Spaghetti Monster saying they must wear colanders on their heads- Pastarfarians. He asserted a subjective mandate that was supposed to actually exist in scripture or authority- it did not!

Ali's views are not in evidence in islam except in limited areas, as noted above, and his life was a non stop testament against the very thing he asserted, however couched in sports he rationalized it.

"What do we really know? What type of muslim was Ali? Ali was a sunni muslim. Ali's was a conscientious objection to white America of the time. Period! Ali converted into the militant Nation of Islam, replete with all its military like accouterments. We know he said the following things:

Integration is wrong. We don’t want to live with the white man; that’s all.

No intelligent black man or black woman in his or her right black mind wants white boys and white girls coming to their homes to marry their black sons and daughters

My conscience won’t let me go shoot my brother, or some darker people, or some poor hungry people in the mud for big powerful America. And shoot them for what? They never called me nigger, they never lynched me, they didn’t put no dogs on me, they didn’t rob me of my nationality, rape and kill my mother and father. … Shoot them for what? How can I shoot them poor people? Just take me to jail."

Ali only converted to Sufi islam by 2005. I have met and spent time with Ali and other world sunni leaders. I am not an expert on Ali but he was not sufi in 2002. I was awed and mesmerized by him, but I also afford him his not great moments- the draft dodge is one, his racist remarks another.

Sufi have a very hard time in history but are often revered once if they do can persevere and obtain greatness or enlightenment. It is not surprising that in Ali's evolution he would later embrace sufi, as he mellowed, and aged- this is good, and understandable. But it is not true that Ali had refuge in this doctrine when he refused the draft. Ali refused the draft because he refused the draft. (Perhaps aging Cat Stevens will now retract his call for the death of another human being under the equally subjective permissions sunni islam allows for).

Sunni islam now embracing characteristics of Ali that are absolutely not essential tenets of their sect are ridiculous. They latch on to Ali's greatness because

1. His sports greatness is quite worthy

2. His overall life is commendable and peaceful

3. He continued his fights into his personal space and persevered with greatness

4. It enables CAIR and others to disassemble, imposing Ali's beliefs while sufi as representative of their views as sunni. CAIR is part and parcel of the Muslim Brotherhood, a sunni parent organ of AQ, ISIS, Islamic Jihad, and many other step children.

Ali's exemption for his faith is no different than the insistence religion demands a colander on their head. If islam is to war as Ali says it is... well...

RIP Ali. Good night.

First off, the Supreme Court in 1971 by an 8-0 decision overturned Ali's conviction on the charge of draft evasion. So no, he was not a draft dodger. http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/ali-conviction-draft-evasion-overturned-1971-article-1.2660503

At the time Ali refused to be drafted he was a member of the Nation of Islam. Which was not the same as Sunni Islam. But even if it were, your comments remind me of some right wing Protestant pastors who lecture Jews, being generally liberal, about what they should and shouldn't believe. Fundamentally, religion is a matter of conscience and there is plenty in Islam to support that including the fact that the establishment of a priesthood was specifically forbidden by Mohammed. So no other person, Muslim or otherwise had the authority to tell Ali what the Koran should mean in regards to serving in an unjust war.

[ilostmypassword]

THIS QUOTED FROM ORIGINAL POST.........................

"There are people in America today of goodwill who are not Muslim who are willing to stand with us. But we have to be the ones who have to be courageous and stand up for ourselves and be unapologetically Muslim and American."

"unapologetically Muslim and American."

MY REPLY.........................

I am an AMERICAN........................................... I FEEL AN ALLEGIANCE TO 'AMERICA'............................

Allegiance is a necessity.... To be an American..........

If you want to be "Muslim and American", that is GREAT........... WELCOME

If you only want to be Muslim, and not American........... Then look elsewhere.......... NOT WELCOME

If any Muslims want to love 'America', (AS Americans do, then I (we) will welcome them with open arms...............

If they only want to 'use and abuse us' as too many have done, then forget it.

If they want to accept us 'Christians' and other religious groups as "EQUALS' and attempt to fit in with 'OUR' existing SOCIETY and WAYs (without changing it to their choosing)............... then please be WELCOME.........

When the Muslim men can give their women all the freedoms that American women commonly have in America, then WELCOME.

To go back in our history, way, way back, and quote a famous quotation ---- "DON'T TREAD ON ME".... Then, WELCOME

Personally I have travelled to over 90 countries in the world, and would not give my U.S. Passport for any one of them.

another thought: --- You can tell whether a place is desirable by whether people are sneaking 'INTO' or 'OUT OF' the place.

America may have loads of problems, But it is still more desirable than over 90 other countries......... and people are still sneaking or struggling to 'GET IN' ---- not the other way around..........

IMHO ------ (In My Humble Opinion)

I think you gave yourself away here with this line: If any Muslims want to love 'America', (AS Americans do, then I (we) will welcome them with open arms...............

I somehow doubt that you can even see how you've exposed your true beliefs..

Edited June 6, 2016 by ilostmypassword

[MisterTee]

Muhammad Ali was a draft dodger and so was I.

I didn't want to get killed or maimed for no good reason. Ali probably felt the same way.

Even a kid in his teens of average intelligence could see through the claptrap and realize that it was a senseless war of aggression that wasn't worth wasting two years of your life - let alone dying for.

"I ain't got nothing against them Viet Cong."

​Neither did I, bro.

[ilostmypassword]

Muhammad Ali was a draft dodger and so was I.

I didn't want to get killed or maimed for no good reason. Ali probably felt the same way.

Even a kid in his teens of average intelligence could see through the claptrap and realize that it was a senseless war of aggression that wasn't worth wasting two years of your life - let alone dying for.

"I ain't got nothing against them Viet Cong."

​Neither did I, bro.

Well, the problem is draft dodger is a colloquial term that has no real fixed meaning. It generally carries an invidious sense, though. As though someone is doing something dishonorable. I think Ali being willing to go to prison rather than serve in the army absolves him of any accusations of being dishonorable. He sacrificed for it. If you mean by "draft dodger" someone who used legal means to get out of serving, maybe so.. Anyway, here a link to a politifact article that discusses the rather sllippery meaning of draft dodger: http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/article/2015/jul/21/was-trump-draft-dodger/

[MisterTee]

THIS QUOTED FROM ORIGINAL POST.........................

"There are people in America today of goodwill who are not Muslim who are willing to stand with us. But we have to be the ones who have to be courageous and stand up for ourselves and be unapologetically Muslim and American."

"unapologetically Muslim and American."

MY REPLY.........................

I am an AMERICAN........................................... I FEEL AN ALLEGIANCE TO 'AMERICA'............................

Allegiance is a necessity.... To be an American..........

If you want to be "Muslim and American", that is GREAT........... WELCOME

If you only want to be Muslim, and not American........... Then look elsewhere.......... NOT WELCOME

If any Muslims want to love 'America', (AS Americans do, then I (we) will welcome them with open arms...............

If they only want to 'use and abuse us' as too many have done, then forget it.

If they want to accept us 'Christians' and other religious groups as "EQUALS' and attempt to fit in with 'OUR' existing SOCIETY and WAYs (without changing it to their choosing)............... then please be WELCOME.........

When the Muslim men can give their women all the freedoms that American women commonly have in America, then WELCOME.

To go back in our history, way, way back, and quote a famous quotation ---- "DON'T TREAD ON ME".... Then, WELCOME

Personally I have travelled to over 90 countries in the world, and would not give my U.S. Passport for any one of them.

another thought: --- You can tell whether a place is desirable by whether people are sneaking 'INTO' or 'OUT OF' the place.

America may have loads of problems, But it is still more desirable than over 90 other countries......... and people are still sneaking or struggling to 'GET IN' ---- not the other way around..........

IMHO ------ (In My Humble Opinion)

I think you gave yourself away here with this line: If any Muslims want to love 'America', (AS Americans do, then I (we) will welcome them with open arms...............

I somehow doubt that you can even see how you've exposed your true beliefs..

Spot on.

The Samuel Johnson line is still the best and the truest - "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel."

​Not because there is not such a thing as genuine patriotism. But it tends to get buried under tons of claptrap. The vast majority of the time, people invoke patriotism in defense of principles that they can't logically defend in any other way.

[NumbNut]

Some great posts on this thread expounding on the meaning of the term 'draft dodger'

What's the difference between a 'draft dodger', as some claim Ali to be, and Dubya for example getting a gig to defend Texas while the real men were at the pointy end in Vietnam? Or my old mate Trump trotting out his bone spurs and gettiing a 'get out of jail free' card?

A whole lot of people didn't serve in Vietnam, via a whole lot of different ways. Whether any one particular method is just, honourable or not is open for discussion, don't you think?

[arjunadawn]

Some great posts on this thread expounding on the meaning of the term 'draft dodger'

What's the difference between a 'draft dodger', as some claim Ali to be, and Dubya for example getting a gig to defend Texas while the real men were at the pointy end in Vietnam? Or my old mate Trump trotting out his bone spurs and gettiing a 'get out of jail free' card?

A whole lot of people didn't serve in Vietnam, via a whole lot of different ways. Whether any one particular method is just, honourable or not is open for discussion, don't you think?

The difference? Ali leveraged faith to mask contempt for race. This is not subjective. Ali's own words are emphatic.

[arjunadawn]

THIS QUOTED FROM ORIGINAL POST.........................

"There are people in America today of goodwill who are not Muslim who are willing to stand with us. But we have to be the ones who have to be courageous and stand up for ourselves and be unapologetically Muslim and American."

"unapologetically Muslim and American."

MY REPLY.........................

I am an AMERICAN........................................... I FEEL AN ALLEGIANCE TO 'AMERICA'............................

Allegiance is a necessity.... To be an American..........

If you want to be "Muslim and American", that is GREAT........... WELCOME

If you only want to be Muslim, and not American........... Then look elsewhere.......... NOT WELCOME

If any Muslims want to love 'America', (AS Americans do, then I (we) will welcome them with open arms...............

If they only want to 'use and abuse us' as too many have done, then forget it.

If they want to accept us 'Christians' and other religious groups as "EQUALS' and attempt to fit in with 'OUR' existing SOCIETY and WAYs (without changing it to their choosing)............... then please be WELCOME.........

When the Muslim men can give their women all the freedoms that American women commonly have in America, then WELCOME.

To go back in our history, way, way back, and quote a famous quotation ---- "DON'T TREAD ON ME".... Then, WELCOME

Personally I have travelled to over 90 countries in the world, and would not give my U.S. Passport for any one of them.

another thought: --- You can tell whether a place is desirable by whether people are sneaking 'INTO' or 'OUT OF' the place.

America may have loads of problems, But it is still more desirable than over 90 other countries......... and people are still sneaking or struggling to 'GET IN' ---- not the other way around..........

IMHO ------ (In My Humble Opinion)

I think you gave yourself away here with this line: If any Muslims want to love 'America', (AS Americans do, then I (we) will welcome them with open arms...............

I somehow doubt that you can even see how you've exposed your true beliefs..

Spot on.

The Samuel Johnson line is still the best and the truest - "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel."

​Not because there is not such a thing as genuine patriotism. But it tends to get buried under tons of claptrap. The vast majority of the time, people invoke patriotism in defense of principles that they can't logically defend in any other way.

"True beliefs?" How... Freudian. What is apparent is a total lack of understanding of Islam. The world is full of Muslims who love their country and are patriots. But it's equally true that Islam specifically cautions about such allegiance in the far al harb. This very issue is central to ALL Islamic history. Both coexist.

This is why [they] were forced out of Mecca, and rejected in Medina. Not because of [their] faith, but because they sought to limit everyone else's faith. It's well within the bounds to muse about this regarding Al's evolving rationale why he rejected serving with the "white" man in SEAsia. As CAIR and others now champion Ali it's valid to consider the merits.

Ali refused service because it was a period in his life where he felt it 'right' to only battle "white" people. Hardly a paragon of faith. It's a matter of record. Let me be clear- I may have felt and done the same. I do not and cannot appreciate his perspective. But it was race not faith.

Ali was a remarkable man and he's earned us viewing his life in its totality. But he was a hard core racist in his early years, by any standard. Maybe justified, maybe not, but indisputable.

[NumbNut]

Some great posts on this thread expounding on the meaning of the term 'draft dodger'

What's the difference between a 'draft dodger', as some claim Ali to be, and Dubya for example getting a gig to defend Texas while the real men were at the pointy end in Vietnam? Or my old mate Trump trotting out his bone spurs and gettiing a 'get out of jail free' card?

A whole lot of people didn't serve in Vietnam, via a whole lot of different ways. Whether any one particular method is just, honourable or not is open for discussion, don't you think?

The difference? Ali leveraged faith to mask contempt for race. This is not subjective. Ali's own words are emphatic.

Ali's words were indeed emphatic, that's about all I can agree with in your post. Ali spoke for the times he lived in and the man he was. You speak of race? I could not even begin to understand what Ali must have experienced growing up a young African American man where and when he did.

But his words helped me to understand, and I think helped the world to understand too.

It takes a special talent to be able to clearly communicate to folks from all over the world and from all walks of life your thoughts. Please don't take offence when I say this, but Ali is the exact polar opposite of your good self Arj. You are the antithesis of clear communication, with the way you use words and the grammar you employ in your posts. Obtuse is a word that springs to mind. Obtuse as to what purpose?

Ali was always clear, consise and to the point. When Ali spoke you always understood exactly what he was trying to get across. And that, Arj, is a gift.

[Johpa]

Ali leveraged faith to mask contempt for race. This is not subjective. Ali's own words are emphatic.

Ali, like Malcolm X and other young Black men of that era were captivated by the words of the charismatic Elijah Muhammed, leader of the Nation of Islam, which can perhaps best be thought of as a radical apostate version of Islam with little credence within the mainstream Islam of that era. It was a Black separatist movement, it did not bother to "mask contempt for race" and thus Ali did not leverage anything, and it all should be seen in the context of its times. Alex Hailey's "The Autobiography of Malcolm X" provides a good example of the typical voyage of many young Black Americans from the narrow teachings of the Nation of Islam to rejection thereof and acceptance of more mainstream Sunni Islam without the separatist movement and racism as the separatist movement conflicts with the tenants of Islam. Again, all this needs to be put into some historical context as this occurred around the 1960s before the Saudi's used their oil wealth to spread and instill their conservative Salafist brand of Islam as one of the globally dominant versions of Islam.

[arjunadawn]

Ali leveraged faith to mask contempt for race. This is not subjective. Ali's own words are emphatic.

Ali, like Malcolm X and other young Black men of that era were captivated by the words of the charismatic Elijah Muhammed, leader of the Nation of Islam, which can perhaps best be thought of as a radical apostate version of Islam with little credence within the mainstream Islam of that era. It was a Black separatist movement, it did not bother to "mask contempt for race" and thus Ali did not leverage anything, and it all should be seen in the context of its times. Alex Hailey's "The Autobiography of Malcolm X" provides a good example of the typical voyage of many young Black Americans from the narrow teachings of the Nation of Islam to rejection thereof and acceptance of more mainstream Sunni Islam without the separatist movement and racism as the separatist movement conflicts with the tenants of Islam. Again, all this needs to be put into some historical context as this occurred around the 1960s before the Saudi's used their oil wealth to spread and instill their conservative Salafist brand of Islam as one of the globally dominant versions of Islam.

I agree entirely, except he leveraged his faith to justify his act; of course he did. You lay out the rationale for his thinking or likely mindset, and I think you are spot on (not unusual). So, few should dispute your POV. His refusal to go to Vietnam was entirely, first, based on his opposition to white America. Even renowned apologists for the left cannot escape this context.

"So let's cut the absurd, deluded pretense that Muhammad Ali wasn't a man who spewed a lot of very hateful, racist claptrap when he was young, because he indisputably did." Piers Morgan, writing just minutes ago in MailOnline.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3628027/PIERS-MORGAN-Muhammad-Ali-racist-repented-Trump-ISN-T-racist-needs-sing-tolerant-tune.html

Ali stated later, after his refusal to go to Vietnam and the court process began "Over the years my religion has changed and my spirituality has evolved..." Indeed it did, and he used this new found appreciation for peace as a revisionist explanation of his actions earlier in draft dodging. It worked, but it most certainly finds little credence from the koran- Ali was not a pacifist Sufi until circa 2005. It is simply that pacifist interpretations of the koran are a decided minority- sufi.

To Ali's remarkable credit, even though using this as a retrospective cleansing of his actions, he proceeded to live a very remarkable life and this man should be honored for a life well lived, irrespective of his racial deportment when young. We all change and evolve, as he noted. However, cleansing Ali retrospectively, as he did himself, is BS* nonsense. He dodged the draft!

*Edit

Edited June 6, 2016 by arjunadawn

[Ace of Pop]

. Says it all realy

[slipperylobster]

THIS QUOTED FROM ORIGINAL POST.........................

"There are people in America today of goodwill who are not Muslim who are willing to stand with us. But we have to be the ones who have to be courageous and stand up for ourselves and be unapologetically Muslim and American."

"unapologetically Muslim and American."

MY REPLY.........................

I am an AMERICAN........................................... I FEEL AN ALLEGIANCE TO 'AMERICA'............................

Allegiance is a necessity.... To be an American..........

If you want to be "Muslim and American", that is GREAT........... WELCOME

If you only want to be Muslim, and not American........... Then look elsewhere.......... NOT WELCOME

If any Muslims want to love 'America', (AS Americans do, then I (we) will welcome them with open arms...............

If they only want to 'use and abuse us' as too many have done, then forget it.

If they want to accept us 'Christians' and other religious groups as "EQUALS' and attempt to fit in with 'OUR' existing SOCIETY and WAYs (without changing it to their choosing)............... then please be WELCOME.........

When the Muslim men can give their women all the freedoms that American women commonly have in America, then WELCOME.

To go back in our history, way, way back, and quote a famous quotation ---- "DON'T TREAD ON ME".... Then, WELCOME

Personally I have travelled to over 90 countries in the world, and would not give my U.S. Passport for any one of them.

another thought: --- You can tell whether a place is desirable by whether people are sneaking 'INTO' or 'OUT OF' the place.

America may have loads of problems, But it is still more desirable than over 90 other countries......... and people are still sneaking or struggling to 'GET IN' ---- not the other way around..........

IMHO ------ (In My Humble Opinion)

I can agree with every point you made..but would like to add something of my own.

Muslims who love America and want to live here and obey "American" laws are welcome...BUT...should verbally renounce the Extremist/Horrible Sharia law and the Terrorist Groups that follow it.

This should be done in a Mosque....with one hand on the Koran...and publicized. They should also renounce terrorists acts done by other Muslims....on Record.

Yes it comes to that. Being silent and submissive makes them seem compliant to Radical Leadership elements that proliferated under their silence.

However...Renouncing Sharia Law would most likely make them "Apostates"....putting them (and their families) at great risk...

I would not know how to reconcile that. It would have to be hashed out among themselves.

Edited June 7, 2016 by slipperylobster

[NumbNut]

Ali leveraged faith to mask contempt for race. This is not subjective. Ali's own words are emphatic.

Ali, like Malcolm X and other young Black men of that era were captivated by the words of the charismatic Elijah Muhammed, leader of the Nation of Islam, which can perhaps best be thought of as a radical apostate version of Islam with little credence within the mainstream Islam of that era. It was a Black separatist movement, it did not bother to "mask contempt for race" and thus Ali did not leverage anything, and it all should be seen in the context of its times. Alex Hailey's "The Autobiography of Malcolm X" provides a good example of the typical voyage of many young Black Americans from the narrow teachings of the Nation of Islam to rejection thereof and acceptance of more mainstream Sunni Islam without the separatist movement and racism as the separatist movement conflicts with the tenants of Islam. Again, all this needs to be put into some historical context as this occurred around the 1960s before the Saudi's used their oil wealth to spread and instill their conservative Salafist brand of Islam as one of the globally dominant versions of Islam.

I agree entirely, except he leveraged his faith to justify his act; of course he did. You lay out the rationale for his thinking or likely mindset, and I think you are spot on (not unusual). So, few should dispute your POV. His refusal to go to Vietnam was entirely, first, based on his opposition to white America. Even renowned apologists for the left cannot escape this context.

"So let's cut the absurd, deluded pretense that Muhammad Ali wasn't a man who spewed a lot of very hateful, racist claptrap when he was young, because he indisputably did." Piers Morgan, writing just minutes ago in MailOnline.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3628027/PIERS-MORGAN-Muhammad-Ali-racist-repented-Trump-ISN-T-racist-needs-sing-tolerant-tune.html

Ali stated later, after his refusal to go to Vietnam and the court process began "Over the years my religion has changed and my spirituality has evolved..." Indeed it did, and he used this new found appreciation for peace as a revisionist explanation of his actions earlier in draft dodging. It worked, but it most certainly finds little credence from the koran- Ali was not a pacifist Sufi until circa 2005. It is simply that pacifist interpretations of the koran are a decided minority- sufi.

To Ali's remarkable credit, even though using this as a retrospective cleansing of his actions, he proceeded to live a very remarkable life and this man should be honored for a life well lived, irrespective of his racial deportment when young. We all change and evolve, as he noted. However, cleansing Ali retrospectively, as he did himself, is BS* nonsense. He dodged the draft!

*Edit

As did Dubya and Trump. Keeping pretty good company there

[ilostmypassword]

Ali leveraged faith to mask contempt for race. This is not subjective. Ali's own words are emphatic.

Ali, like Malcolm X and other young Black men of that era were captivated by the words of the charismatic Elijah Muhammed, leader of the Nation of Islam, which can perhaps best be thought of as a radical apostate version of Islam with little credence within the mainstream Islam of that era. It was a Black separatist movement, it did not bother to "mask contempt for race" and thus Ali did not leverage anything, and it all should be seen in the context of its times. Alex Hailey's "The Autobiography of Malcolm X" provides a good example of the typical voyage of many young Black Americans from the narrow teachings of the Nation of Islam to rejection thereof and acceptance of more mainstream Sunni Islam without the separatist movement and racism as the separatist movement conflicts with the tenants of Islam. Again, all this needs to be put into some historical context as this occurred around the 1960s before the Saudi's used their oil wealth to spread and instill their conservative Salafist brand of Islam as one of the globally dominant versions of Islam.

I agree entirely, except he leveraged his faith to justify his act; of course he did. You lay out the rationale for his thinking or likely mindset, and I think you are spot on (not unusual). So, few should dispute your POV. His refusal to go to Vietnam was entirely, first, based on his opposition to white America. Even renowned apologists for the left cannot escape this context.

"So let's cut the absurd, deluded pretense that Muhammad Ali wasn't a man who spewed a lot of very hateful, racist claptrap when he was young, because he indisputably did." Piers Morgan, writing just minutes ago in MailOnline.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3628027/PIERS-MORGAN-Muhammad-Ali-racist-repented-Trump-ISN-T-racist-needs-sing-tolerant-tune.html

Ali stated later, after his refusal to go to Vietnam and the court process began "Over the years my religion has changed and my spirituality has evolved..." Indeed it did, and he used this new found appreciation for peace as a revisionist explanation of his actions earlier in draft dodging. It worked, but it most certainly finds little credence from the koran- Ali was not a pacifist Sufi until circa 2005. It is simply that pacifist interpretations of the koran are a decided minority- sufi.

To Ali's remarkable credit, even though using this as a retrospective cleansing of his actions, he proceeded to live a very remarkable life and this man should be honored for a life well lived, irrespective of his racial deportment when young. We all change and evolve, as he noted. However, cleansing Ali retrospectively, as he did himself, is BS* nonsense. He dodged the draft!

*Edit

If by draft dodging you mean that he legally avoid serving in the armed forces, yes, he dodged the draft. By that standard Donald Trump, Dick Cheney, Rudolph Giuliani, and Bill Clinton were also draft dodgers. As were millions and millions of University students.

[NumbNut]

Ali leveraged faith to mask contempt for race. This is not subjective. Ali's own words are emphatic.

Ali, like Malcolm X and other young Black men of that era were captivated by the words of the charismatic Elijah Muhammed, leader of the Nation of Islam, which can perhaps best be thought of as a radical apostate version of Islam with little credence within the mainstream Islam of that era. It was a Black separatist movement, it did not bother to "mask contempt for race" and thus Ali did not leverage anything, and it all should be seen in the context of its times. Alex Hailey's "The Autobiography of Malcolm X" provides a good example of the typical voyage of many young Black Americans from the narrow teachings of the Nation of Islam to rejection thereof and acceptance of more mainstream Sunni Islam without the separatist movement and racism as the separatist movement conflicts with the tenants of Islam. Again, all this needs to be put into some historical context as this occurred around the 1960s before the Saudi's used their oil wealth to spread and instill their conservative Salafist brand of Islam as one of the globally dominant versions of Islam.

I agree entirely, except he leveraged his faith to justify his act; of course he did. You lay out the rationale for his thinking or likely mindset, and I think you are spot on (not unusual). So, few should dispute your POV. His refusal to go to Vietnam was entirely, first, based on his opposition to white America. Even renowned apologists for the left cannot escape this context.

"So let's cut the absurd, deluded pretense that Muhammad Ali wasn't a man who spewed a lot of very hateful, racist claptrap when he was young, because he indisputably did." Piers Morgan, writing just minutes ago in MailOnline.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3628027/PIERS-MORGAN-Muhammad-Ali-racist-repented-Trump-ISN-T-racist-needs-sing-tolerant-tune.html

Ali stated later, after his refusal to go to Vietnam and the court process began "Over the years my religion has changed and my spirituality has evolved..." Indeed it did, and he used this new found appreciation for peace as a revisionist explanation of his actions earlier in draft dodging. It worked, but it most certainly finds little credence from the koran- Ali was not a pacifist Sufi until circa 2005. It is simply that pacifist interpretations of the koran are a decided minority- sufi.

To Ali's remarkable credit, even though using this as a retrospective cleansing of his actions, he proceeded to live a very remarkable life and this man should be honored for a life well lived, irrespective of his racial deportment when young. We all change and evolve, as he noted. However, cleansing Ali retrospectively, as he did himself, is BS* nonsense. He dodged the draft!

*Edit

If by draft dodging you mean that he legally avoid serving in the armed forces, yes, he dodged the draft. By that standard Donald Trump, Dick Cheney, Rudolph Giuliani, and Bill Clinton were also draft dodgers. As were millions and millions of University students.

Exactly. But that doesn't fit the narrative, does it?

[Steely Dan]

It's Casius Clay really who ducked out of Nam Call Up by going Muslim,lest we foreget.

Ali referred to Cassius Clay as his 'slave name', which is actually ironic considering more slaves taken from Africa went East due to the Muslim slave trade than went West as a result of the European one.

[Mudcrab]

A great boxer...but a boxer nevertheless......punched in the head too many times and developed Parkinsons disease.

A great man? I think the Jury is still out on that one.

Another great boxer....probably the best in recent times times...Mike Tyson.....the rapist.

Boxers aren't usually nice people.......they fight for a living.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Mudcrab