"Alcoholics Anonymous saved my life, but now I’ve lost my faith"

[Johnniey]

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/nov/29/alcoholics-anonymous-saved-my-life-but-i-lost-my-faith

I found this article very interesting.

[piersbeckett]

thai 3, I don't think that's right - I'm going to Makro now and will deal with your post upon my return

Good place for booze by the box

Oh really, I'll have to look out for that.

[piersbeckett]

One reads so often in the papers that this or that celebrity has gone into rehab and is now clean or sober that it makes it sound such an easy thing to do, but believe me recovery is incredibly hard work both in the primary stages and out in the real world. At Promis we were taken twice weekly to AA or NA meetings in Canterbury to get us accustomed to attending; this time i listened and I saw that that was where I belonged, that all the patterns of the illness were replicated in me. I don't understand why the medical profession refuses to recognise addiction in general and alcoholism in particular as an illness but persists in treating the damage caused or the symptoms rather than the core. I don't have a very high regard for the medical profession coming as I do from that world but in this instance there is a glaring ignorance.

When the ordinary person has a drink the alcohol flushes away and if you drink too much you will feel ill and hung over the next day. I believe, and there is increasing medical evidence to support this, that alcoholics are born not made and that at some time in their drinking career a trigger will activate an endorphinal gland which is like the appendix, not in use in other people. Once started, the alcohol will liaise with the dopamine to produce a substance closely akin to street heroin; the body clamours for more of this and so the alcoholic continues to drink even to jails, institutions and death. The substance, known as THQ, stores itself in the fatty tissues of the brain.

[piersbeckett]

When the alcoholic stops drinking the substance is no longer produced but renewed drinking will set the whole process off again, which is why I and my like cannot take even one drink. ...................................................................................................................................................................................................

Sometimes people for various reasons, particularly grief, will drink heavily for a while but then they will come to their senses and stop. That is not the way for us alcoholics; once the illness has kicked in there is no way we can go back to controlling our

drinking...........................................................................................

Drinking alcoholics think they are the centre of the universe, that if they turn over too violently in bed the San Andreas fault will crumble; we need to learn that like other people we are simply part of the pattern of life.

The above and the previous post no. 12 are taken from Clarissa Dickson Wright's book, Spilling the Beans first published in 2007. If you don't know who she was, she was the daughter of the surgeon Arthur Dickson Wright who was a violent alcoholic (at one time the royal surgeon) and she appeared on television (in the UK) on the Two Fat Ladies series with Jennifer Paterson as well as the Clarissa and the Countryman series.

She passed her Bar exams at the age of 21 and was the youngest female barrister at that time. She died a few years ago having been sober for the last twenty years of her life.

[Sawan Chan 7]

Interesting article. What an ungrateful bastard - using AA to get sober and now deciding to give nothing back to help others who were as hopeless as he was.

[impulse]

Looks like someone is intent on ruining what I had hoped might be a good thread.

Probably his piles are playing up due to drinking too much.

Rise above it. The guy opened up and asked for some help on a genuine health issue. Let's leave the space for all of us to get and give each other help, with no fear of having it tossed up in our face at a later date.

Plenty of ammo to diss him on in this thread alone.

[Sawan Chan 7]

Looks like someone is intent on ruining what I had hoped might be a good thread.

Probably his piles are playing up due to drinking too much.

Rise above it. The guy opened up and asked for some help on a genuine health issue. Let's leave the space for all of us to get and give each other help, with no fear of having it tossed up in our face at a later date.

Plenty of ammo to diss him on in this thread alone.

I'll try but he is not helping anyone here. We don't even know if he in fact drinks or needs any help quitting.

[jak2002003]

Alcoholism is not a disease!

Alcohol is a drug. You become an addict to drugs. Its not a bacteria or virus!

Its a drug that is freely available and acceptable in most societies. That's why its so easy to get addicted to it.

Calling it a disease is not taking responsibility for your own actions.

I am not saying I have no sympathy for alcoholics.. far from it... its a very real addiction and destroys lives and families.. just as other drug related addictions do.

If AA helps a small percentage of people then good for them, even if their teachings and ideas seem crazy to others. What ever helps people.

And, yes, people can drink alcohol and not be alcoholics. I drink, like most people, socially. Not every day or even every week, and very rarely in access as I HATE hangovers!

[Sawan Chan 7]

Alcoholism is not a disease!

Alcohol is a drug. You become an addict to drugs. Its not a bacteria or virus!

Its a drug that is freely available and acceptable in most societies. That's why its so easy to get addicted to it.

Calling it a disease is not taking responsibility for your own actions.

I am not saying I have no sympathy for alcoholics.. far from it... its a very real addiction and destroys lives and families.. just as other drug related addictions do.

If AA helps a small percentage of people then good for them, even if their teachings and ideas seem crazy to others. What ever helps people.

And, yes, people can drink alcohol and not be alcoholics. I drink, like most people, socially. Not every day or even every week, and very rarely in access as I HATE hangovers!

Well there you have it, thanks for telling us jak2002003 . I'll write to the following and tell them your opinion differs from theirs: - The American Medical Association, The World Health Organization, American Psychiatric Association, the American Hospital Association, the American Public Health Association, the National Association of Social Workers, the American College of Physicians , Joint Committee of the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence and the American Society of Addiction Medicine.

Which medical school did you graduate from?

[gerryBScot]

Johnny thanks for the original post and the link which I had never read despite it going back to December 2015. I also see later you say you had hope posting the article might stimulate an interesting thread - alas, it's difficult because some of our friends are plain hostile to AA and can be relied upon to churn out the usual shibboleths about AA being a religious organisation,etc ad nauseam.

As a happy recovering AA I have not experienced any religious orgasms today. I did not hear any voices. I did not fall over any statues or trip up over rosary beads. No visions of angels and no weeping effigies for that matter. When I go to AA meetings I do not hear my fellow members describing similar experiences and exhorting their fellow members to flail themselves and wear hair shirts. I hear people sometimes acknowledge that in their journeys into recovery that they have come to understand the idea of a higher power. I hear far more people say they struggle with traditional religious concepts of 'GOD' and a fair few assert their G_O_D is the Group_of_Drunks they are sitting amongst. The God gig is the biggest red herring in AA, increasingly killing more and more alcoholics because understandably some of them are starting to believe this nonsense, as it is getting lots of airplay, and it keeps them out of the rooms.

It cannot be denied however that AA has its issues. We have deservedly received a high level of opprobrium for failing to keep our house in order and facilitating 'thirteenth stepping'. My reading of AA history is this has been a problem from the beginning. I was always told that 'two sickies do not make a wellie' and was advised against having close sexual relationships of any sort in my first year. It sounds severe but, looking back, it was good advice and was indicative of the support that was provided in the well ordered groups which I attended.They used to say: if you want a relationship buy a plant and learn to look after; if it is still alive after six months, then buy a pet animal and learn to look after it; if it is alive two years later then you might be ready for a relationship. It would have been unthinkable for a vulnerable woman to be murdered as a result of being thirteenth stepped in any of these groups because the general approach was 'care and concern' for the newcomer. It was understood the last thing any newcomer needed was to be plunged into sexual relationship with a senior member. It was frowned upon. But it is undeniable that this is a problem and in a handful of cases it has resulted in dreadful consequences.

Nevertheless I have to say this: I would be dead if I hadn't stopped drinking and there is no doubt in my mind that what has made my continued and indeed developing sobriety possible is AA.

[oxo1947]

I'm not an alcoholic but I was a drunk for about 2 years in Oz when my marriage broke up, I was on the road everyday as a salesman---drunk and selling......done my best sales figures.

But I do think AA does help some people---I remember stumbling into a small AA meeting in a town I didn't know well, I sat down and said the usual, "Hello, I'm oxo and I'm an alcoholic."
Have you been drinking right now? asked one person.

Yes. I admitted I have been---Thought so, he replied, "This is a mosque............................

[Scott]

Off-topic post removed.

[gerryBScot]

I'm not an alcoholic but I was a drunk for about 2 years in Oz when my marriage broke up, I was on the road everyday as a salesman---drunk and selling......done my best sales figures.

But I do think AA does help some people---I remember stumbling into a small AA meeting in a town I didn't know well, I sat down and said the usual, "Hello, I'm oxo and I'm an alcoholic."

Have you been drinking right now? asked one person.

Yes. I admitted I have been---Thought so, he replied, "This is a mosque............................

Every drunk has this kind of tale to tell, some funny like yours, some awful. I knew a guy got convicted of murder when he was in a black out. Served five years and was discharged following new evidence becoming available. He quit drinking for a few years but then went back out for more and as far as I know is still out there. I don't want to interfere with anybody's enjoyment of a glass or two or ten, indeed I would support it, but some of us, like me, shouldn't be allowed near a drop of it because it turns us into dangerous, sick whatevers. I don't understand the change in me since I got sober, I don't need to understand it in all honesty, but the world is a better and safer place because I don't drink any more.

[NickJ]

I think there is genetic predisposistion for addiction of all kinds. Then mix in the endocrine system and we get a mess that will never be understood. I think it is best to try and get a handle on whatever you are addicted to the best way you can.

I went through some pretty bad hell years and during the middle of it I started drinking. More and more. Until most around me all decided I was an alchoholic. Then one day I got off the floor. wiped off the dried vomit. Quit. That was awhile ago. I never had the shakes or cravings. Never talked to anybody about it. Just quit. nowdays I can enjoy a drink or two or three. I do so . Just not that often. once every fee months.

I have had friends that got help and went through AA or rehab....some it worked for others not so much.

[gk10002000]

AA is a cult preying on the vulnerable, it's success rates are low. It's a lie that heavy drinkers cannot become moderate ones, they do not HAVE to give up drinking to live a normal happy life.

I believe they do prey on vulnerable. Also, they have a hidden or not so hidden agenda to make you believe in Christianity or God. In fact those words are in their twelve steps. There are many other ways for alcoholics to seek help. People should try it and see but don't be afraid to look elsewhere

[gerryBScot]

I believe they do prey on vulnerable. Also, they have a hidden or not so hidden agenda to make you believe in Christianity or God. In fact those words are in their twelve steps. There are many other ways for alcoholics to seek help. People should try it and see but don't be afraid to look elsewhere

Would you explain, for the benefit of those people who might be lurking on this forum, debating in their own minds if they are or aren't alcoholics, the "many other ways for alcoholics to seek help". I do not believe any AA member on this thread is claiming the AA approach is the only way. Beyond telling someone not to go to AA, what would you suggest to a person in provincial Thailand, say Nakhon Nowhere, who contacted you and said: "gk10002000, help me <deleted>, I'm desperate, I need to do something about my drinking. I remember you saying there are many ways for alcoholics to seek help. Please tell em about them? And please don't tell anyone we've had this discussion.'

[jak2002003]

Alcoholism is not a disease!

Alcohol is a drug. You become an addict to drugs. Its not a bacteria or virus!

Its a drug that is freely available and acceptable in most societies. That's why its so easy to get addicted to it.

Calling it a disease is not taking responsibility for your own actions.

I am not saying I have no sympathy for alcoholics.. far from it... its a very real addiction and destroys lives and families.. just as other drug related addictions do.

If AA helps a small percentage of people then good for them, even if their teachings and ideas seem crazy to others. What ever helps people.

And, yes, people can drink alcohol and not be alcoholics. I drink, like most people, socially. Not every day or even every week, and very rarely in access as I HATE hangovers!

Well there you have it, thanks for telling us jak2002003 . I'll write to the following and tell them your opinion differs from theirs: - The American Medical Association, The World Health Organization, American Psychiatric Association, the American Hospital Association, the American Public Health Association, the National Association of Social Workers, the American College of Physicians , Joint Committee of the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence and the American Society of Addiction Medicine.

Which medical school did you graduate from?

I graduated from the Aberystwyth University of Wales, UK, Masters of Biological Sciences. Thought not a medical degree, we covered in depth diseases, viruses, fungi, parasitology etc, so I have some knowledge of what the definition of a disease is.

Which medical 'school' did you graduate from?

Just saying alcoholism is a disease does not make it true.

I see your references are from American Associations, and it is in America that alcoholism is seen mistakenly seen as a disease and not an addiction, due to American Medical professionals and American Culture.

You might find this article interesting as it explains how this came about.

http://www.baldwinresearch.com/alcoholism.cfm

[bamukloy]

To me, i think the "belief in a higher power" thing is a bit outdated.

It seems to intimate that we are not all we can be, that we need some force outside of ourselves to be whole.

which, not co-incidently, is the same claptrap the majour religions pedal, while at the same time their higher holy men are running around killing people or interfering with children.

" Our higher power is our will-power"... in my books.

In my history i drank excessively, and ended up on prescription meds from depression, ( which was most probably in part due to alcohol)

And at the time the "belief in a higher power" is actually what nearly tipped me over the edge.

I dont need other men preaching to me that i am hopeless on my own, need God, need to be saved, etc etc

Its all guilt based teaching, income raising and an easy way to control people.

You already have it all, within you.

You gave up alcohol with your own willpower, determination, whatever.

And now you have a better life for it.

You had the support of like minded individuals fighting the same cause, but in the end it was you who stopped and keeps on stopping to reach for the bottle.

Congrats to you..and you alone!

Not any invisible higher power.

[gerryBScot]

It is sad that everything appears to be reduced to the binaries, yes or no. I wonder how many drunks who are rattling right now are concerned about either the existence of God or whether a disease model approach is best for them. These were certainly not concerns of mine when I made the initial phone call that led me to go to an AA meeting for the first time. I was fortunate because of living in a big city I was directed to a meeting close to where I lived that started about one hour after my phone call. I have now been to AA all over the world Japan to Tasmania, Thailand, the Philippines, UK, USA and I just don't recognise the meetings I have been able to attend from the way AA is described by people posting here, some claiming expertise. I can't see how AA could have survived and grown into a truly globally organisation if it was so totally flawed and based on such erroneous concepts. The good thing is most AAs grin and bear it and go about their daily lives in a state of contentment and happiness. I actually smile and laugh at most of the anti stuff posted on here and elsewhere.

[Nearlynam]

I think there is genetic predisposistion for addiction of all kinds. Then mix in the endocrine system and we get a mess that will never be understood. I think it is best to try and get a handle on whatever you are addicted to the best way you can.

I went through some pretty bad hell years and during the middle of it I started drinking. More and more. Until most around me all decided I was an alchoholic. Then one day I got off the floor. wiped off the dried vomit. Quit. That was awhile ago. I never had the shakes or cravings. Never talked to anybody about it. Just quit. nowdays I can enjoy a drink or two or three. I do so . Just not that often. once every fee months.

I have had friends that got help and went through AA or rehab....some it worked for others not so much.

I agree with your first part.

However, if you didn't have shakes or dts when stopping drinking then you weren't an alcoholic but possibly an alcohol abuser, there is a big difference.

[manfredtillmann]

i did not drink any alcohol at all for almost 20 years. i stopped as a result of a bad choice while drunk the day after my 20th birthday and started again on the day of my 40th as a precursor to my upcoming divorce.

looking back at these 20 years they stand out as the most lonely and desperate times of my life. i made a lot more enemies than friends by being truthful and sober.

aaa is to me what unions and churches are. assembly points for the weak, th undecided, the ones who need a helping hand to just have a piss.

[Sawan Chan 7]

i did not drink any alcohol at all for almost 20 years. i stopped as a result of a bad choice while drunk the day after my 20th birthday and started again on the day of my 40th as a precursor to my upcoming divorce.

looking back at these 20 years they stand out as the most lonely and desperate times of my life. i made a lot more enemies than friends by being truthful and sober.

aaa is to me what unions and churches are. assembly points for the weak, th undecided, the ones who need a helping hand to just have a piss.

LOL, this must be a joke. Unbelievable.

[manfredtillmann]

i did not drink any alcohol at all for almost 20 years. i stopped as a result of a bad choice while drunk the day after my 20th birthday and started again on the day of my 40th as a precursor to my upcoming divorce.

looking back at these 20 years they stand out as the most lonely and desperate times of my life. i made a lot more enemies than friends by being truthful and sober.

aaa is to me what unions and churches are. assembly points for the weak, th undecided, the ones who need a helping hand to just have a piss.

LOL, this must be a joke. Unbelievable.

why?

[Sawan Chan 7]

i did not drink any alcohol at all for almost 20 years. i stopped as a result of a bad choice while drunk the day after my 20th birthday and started again on the day of my 40th as a precursor to my upcoming divorce.

looking back at these 20 years they stand out as the most lonely and desperate times of my life. i made a lot more enemies than friends by being truthful and sober.

aaa is to me what unions and churches are. assembly points for the weak, th undecided, the ones who need a helping hand to just have a piss.

LOL, this must be a joke. Unbelievable.

why?

Pretty obvious ain't it - you are saying that being sober and honest is worse than drinking and lying. Pathetic troll.

[manfredtillmann]

no, mate, i don't say that at all. are you drunk right now?

having been there, from a very early stage (i got given my first beer at age 3!) i do know that being an 'alcoholic' is just another excuse for being weak and pathetic. it falls into the same category as being 'overweight'.

take charge of yourself and your destiny, and let go of the notion that 'society' somehow has to take care of your pathetic shortcomings.

in a natural environment you would either die or succeed.

no one owes you anything!

[Nearlynam]

no, mate, i don't say that at all. are you drunk right now?

having been there, from a very early stage (i got given my first beer at age 3!) i do know that being an 'alcoholic' is just another excuse for being weak and pathetic. it falls into the same category as being 'overweight'.

take charge of yourself and your destiny, and let go of the notion that 'society' somehow has to take care of your pathetic shortcomings.

in a natural environment you would either die or succeed.

no one owes you anything!

Let me get this straight.

Are you telling us that alcoholics are weak pathetic people?

[impulse]

I'm trying to figure out where people get the idea that the AA 12 step program is about anything BUT taking personal responsibility for our lives, our actions and the damage done by our drinking.

The entire goal of my steps was to look at what in the world had happened to me that humbled me to darken the door of AA, look at (and admit) my part in every single episode, to make a list of all the collateral damage I did to people around me, and to make amends to all those I had harmed. And to keep doing that every day. And to help anyone else who wanted to clean up their life like they taught me.

There was no blaming my genes and no dodging responsibility because I had a disease. It was all about personal responsibility.

So I could get all caught up in the definition of alcoholism, and the disease theory, and could have died of cirrhosis or in a flaming car wreck while pondering whether I'd accept a little bit of humility in the fact that the alcohol was kicking my ass and I needed help. That's the higher power thing. It's not about religion. It's about accepting that I couldn't do it without help. My higher power was the hundreds of people on the path with me.

And for anyone worried about being converted, I'm 27 years in and I still don't go to church. And there is absolutely no pressure pushing me that way.

So, yeah. I'm sure there are other, zoomier ways to quit drinking. But I don't know any shortcuts to cleaning up the wreckage of my life, much of it related to my drinking. It took years, and lots of eating humble pie. Maybe that's another reason the success rate isn't very high. Most of us would prefer to take a pill.

[Sheryl]

A number of troll posts and responses quoting them have been removed.

In the future please use the report function rather than replying to troll posts.

Posters are reminded of sub-forum rules:

"There are different views about what constitutes “problem drinking” or how alcoholism is defined. Experience has shown that debates over this are unhelpful and quickly devolve into flaming. Ultimately only the individual involved can determine whether or not alcohol is a problem in their lives. Posters are welcome to share their experiences and observations, but theoretical debates are to be avoided.

There are a number of different approaches to achieving sobriety. Thai Visa neither endorses nor condemns any of them, and this forum is not an appropriate venue for campaigns to either discredit or promote a particular approach. People who have achieved sobriety are naturally eager to share what worked for them with others, and people who have decided for or against a particular approach are often understandably eager to explain and defend their choice. Sharing of experiences is absolutely encouraged, but should not cross the line into argumentative debate or defamatory campaigns. These are unconstructive and will not be allowed. Please limit yourself to describing what did or did not work for you/people you know, and respect that the experience of others may differ.

Constructive suggestions – particularly those based on personal experience – are welcome, but overly aggressive attempts to persuade someone to adopt or discard a particular approach to achieving sobriety are not permitted. Moderators will use their discretion in determining at what point the line between constructive suggestions and aggressive attempts to persuade/dissuade is crossed."

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/475677-sub-forum-specific-rules/

[Sawan Chan 7]

no, mate, i don't say that at all. are you drunk right now?

having been there, from a very early stage (i got given my first beer at age 3!) i do know that being an 'alcoholic' is just another excuse for being weak and pathetic. it falls into the same category as being 'overweight'.

take charge of yourself and your destiny, and let go of the notion that 'society' somehow has to take care of your pathetic shortcomings.

in a natural environment you would either die or succeed.

no one owes you anything!

Thanks for sharing. I'm a little confused though. Did you stop drinking for 20 years because you are an alcoholic? Did you go to Alcoholics Anonymous? If not did you do it by willpower? Can you control your drinking now? If you can, well done!

[gk10002000]

I believe they do prey on vulnerable. Also, they have a hidden or not so hidden agenda to make you believe in Christianity or God. In fact those words are in their twelve steps. There are many other ways for alcoholics to seek help. People should try it and see but don't be afraid to look elsewhere

Would you explain, for the benefit of those people who might be lurking on this forum, debating in their own minds if they are or aren't alcoholics, the "many other ways for alcoholics to seek help". I do not believe any AA member on this thread is claiming the AA approach is the only way. Beyond telling someone not to go to AA, what would you suggest to a person in provincial Thailand, say Nakhon Nowhere, who contacted you and said: "gk10002000, help me <deleted>, I'm desperate, I need to do something about my drinking. I remember you saying there are many ways for alcoholics to seek help. Please tell em about them? And please don't tell anyone we've had this discussion.'

I would say go seek professional advice. AAA people are not professionals, are not professionally trained, etc