Ex-thai Leader Says Australia Ignorant

[lukamar]

The only thing we have is Surayudh distancing himself from this incident, explaining that he did not give the orders to shoot.

I may not understand military protocol fully ... BUT... Isn't the commanding officer ALWAYS responsible for the actions of his subordinates? Although in actual fact, in the Military, "S*it rolls downhill" protecting the ones on the top who always blame the subordinates for not following orders when they are in a hard spot.

[tropo]

It does look like Anand's remarks are a bit xenophobic. But I think he's right - the reactions from Downer and Helen Clark, in particular, to the coup lacked any sympathy for or understanding of the situation in Thailand.. they may well have been comments for their "domestic constituents" but they are two very experienced politicians and should know everything they say is replayed around the world and up here.

As an Aussie living in Thailand, I felt very disappointed in the remarks Downer and Clark made when news of the coup broke.. Thaksin was regarded as having led one of the most corrupt administrations in re cent years. There were massive protests in the streets of Bangkok for weeks early this year, and his record on human rights abuses - inciting the slaying of 3000 or more people in the "war on drugs" in early 2003, repeated acts of media suppression and utter disregard for the slaying of at least 20 activists protesting against things such as power stations and local land grabs .. people such as Muslim lawyer Somchai Neelaphaijit, whose abduction has now been linked directly to someone in the PM's Office .. who was allegedly in contact with one of the five police said to have been involved on the very night of his disappearance .. look into Thaksin's business record and you can see very clearly he was close to a corporate crook for much of his career .. note particularly his involvement in the highly controversial seizure of a cable-TV company set up with Seattle businessman William Monson .. the Thai man who introduced Thaksin to Monson claimed in The Nation not long ago that was how Thaksin made his first billion baht)..

Sorry for going on, but the point is our embassies knew all this stuff and a lot more. Both Clark and Downer should have been told many times how grubby Thaksin was .. and they should also have been able to find out fairly quickly that General Sonthi and Surayud were/are military leaders with impeccable records.. Men of extraordinary discipline and with absolutely no history of having any sort of political ambition and both linked very closely to the Palace. How much of a risk would it have been for them to suggest that, "actually, you know, this may not be so bad.. there was a real threat of blood on the streets similar or worse than 1992.. talk of a coup had been reported on for months and months .. to the point where the big question was which side would stage one first .. and with a leader as selfish and unscrupulous as Thaksin, gosh, was it actually surprising that he did lose power the way he did?

One columnist has said the way that the timing and nature of Thaksin's departure may well have been a deliberate act of leaving the door open to what occurred .. with all the luggage he reportedly took with him (however many suitcases, etc).. for a man as Machiavellian as old Square Face, you really can't discount such a thing. One Burmese man I know reckons the junta's top generals would never have made the sort of "mistake" that Thaksin made by leaving on an extended trip at such a point. And journalists have been wondering what his real motives were; Is he as superstitious as they say? And did the disabled Burmese he reportedly saw, weeks earlier, convince him to leave the country because the negative power of two supposed solar eclipses in the second half of September were so bad he should not be in the country? It's wild and incredibly fanciful stuff, yet, was it a factor in what occurred?

The trouble is, he's such a compulsive liar, short of him becoming a radical Christian convert or becoming a devoted Buddhist like his former friend/foe Chamlong - we may never know.

Back on the topic, I can easily imagine how someone like Anand - who has copped a lot of flak from the Rich One, now exiled in London (or lurking in China or somewhere just over the northern border, god knows..) might feel upset at the lack of "understanding" from the West for what has occurred here. You don't expect someone like George Bush to stand up and say something enlightened (unless it's a month of Sundays perhaps), but very few Western leaders have broken out of the standard all-coups-are-bad mould.

My firm belief is Surayud will lead one of the best regimes this country has ever seen, and that Thais such as Giles Ungprakorn, who may have fair reasons to attack military interventions given what his family went through, will be spewing into their cornflakes long after Surayud is replaced by the hopeless greedy bozos that lined up shamelessly behind Thaksin for the past five years.

Let's just hope that a good number of them are defending themselves in court for some of what they allowed while in office by the time the election is staged - probably in early 2008.

Yes, the best way to solve the problem of an elected government gone bad is to send in the tanks. It's quick and easy, and best achieved when your corrupt leader is overseas on UN business. We can make up one hundreds reasons why it's the best way and if a foreign government/leader does not approve, just call them uninformed or ignorant.

It's the new democracy.

[younghusband]

The only thing we have is Surayudh distancing himself from this incident, explaining that he did not give the orders to shoot.

I may not understand military protocol fully ... BUT... Isn't the commanding officer ALWAYS responsible for the actions of his subordinates? Although in actual fact, in the Military, "S*it rolls downhill" protecting the ones on the top who always blame the subordinates for not following orders when they are in a hard spot.

Surayud has been consistent in his denial that he gave the orders to shoot.I think given the clear decency of his character that he should be given the benefit of doubt, yet the episode is deeply troubling.In another culture he would have had to do rather more than express regret.There doesn't seem to be a tradition in Thai culture for taking resposibility for subordinates' flawed actions.I suspect that part of the reason is that, while there is a huge amount of woolly rhetoric and flag waving,Thai patriotism is a very thin construct. There is for example no true officer class here or sense of noblesse oblige.By this I mean that while there are very many who are keen on the privileges of rank, there are only a few who are willing to take on the concomitant responsibilities.It's perhaps natural when the elite regards the majority of their countrymen as another race, and of course in many cases they actually are.

[CalicoConsulting]

I've never heard of any of these people because I'm just an ignorant Merkin.

Michael

[MarkBKK]

Geographically Australia is part of Asia ...

I blame Thatcher. First she took the milk away, then the geography teachers ... and obviously next was the atlas.

Oh dear.

I suppose next there'll be a Japanese person claiming that Japan isn't in Asia.

[Johpa]

From an historical perspective, Australia's attitude to Asia has been immensely ignorant and arrogant. Australia has never come to terms with the implications of its geographical location in Asia. The country has always seen itself as a European enclave on the butt end of the universe.

The White Australia policy effectively stopped any Asian immigration to that underpopulated country crying out for workers and families - until the 1960s. During the first half of the 20C bulk Brits and southern Europeans (Italians and Greeks) were given assisted passage to help populate Australia.

In the aftermath of the Vietnam war in the '70s, the Labour Party relaxed immigration restrictions and allowed some Vietnamese refugees to enter Australia, amidst howls of protest from a solid core of racist die-hards.

The underlying racism in Australia has not disappeared......

I believe the traditional immigration policy of Australia was encapsulated in the following ode:

If you are white, it's all right

If you are brown, you might stay around

If you are black, you must go back

I've been told that Russel Crowe's breakout role in Romper Stomper was pretty spot on.

[terry57]

why do people even bother to quote howard and downer they are both clowns.

oh yes and i suppose beasly would be a top representative of australia.

he's an absolute throttler and i live just down the road from him im sorry to say.

you got to be dreaming mate.

[Plus]

Anand is right, people who can't understand the coup can't claim to be Asians. Not all Asians and not all Thais accept it either, but generally there's an understanding that Thaksin went too far and that military simply put the country back in line. Democracy is not the natural way of life in Asia. People aren't born equal here like in the West, some votes count for more than others.

[Old Croc]

Geographically Australia is part of Asia ...

I blame Thatcher. First she took the milk away, then the geography teachers ... and obviously next was the atlas.

Oh dear.

[kmart]

I think all politicians here are playing to their own domestic audiences.

The term "democratically elected" is an increasingly tired, "one-size-fits-all" Western cliche, that just involves revolving political actors serving their corporate masters and the status quo. I bet the recent seemingly popular bloodless coup here might have caused a few raised pulses overseas?

Anand is usually a little more tactful than this last statement, too btw....

[h90]

Geographically Australia is part of Asia, but the ethnicity is derived mainly from western countries and thus it relates more to that culture. Things will change in time as all countries become more global in outlook, but among the biggest difficulties to this are the racist attitudes of some Asian countries and their current and former leaders (including the guy mentioned above). Their refusal to allow Australia full membership in various asian economic summits is an example of these shortsighted and even racist attitudes.

The situation is not helped by the idiot Bush-aphiles currently in charge of Australia, but there is fault on all sides.

APEC is due again shortly and I, for one, am eagerly looking forward to the colourful shirts the leaders will sheepish model for the world media. The economic outcomes rate less attention.

Geographically is Australia not part of Asia. Australia is Australia.

China is more part of Europe than Australia part of Asia. Consult your globe.....

The rest I fully agree....

[fruittbatt]

I believe the traditional immigration policy of Australia was encapsulated in the following ode:

If you are white, it's all right

If you are brown, you might stay around

If you are black, you must go back

I've been told that Russel Crowe's breakout role in Romper Stomper was pretty spot on.

You got in one, Johpa. Who was that Bluesman? Big Bill Broonzy?

Russell Crowe's role was copycatted in the riots on Sydney's suburban Maroubra beach last summer, as bulk thugs, male and female, beat up some guys of "middle eastern appearance".

[steveromagnino]

Given that my mother just last week was recounting a story of being threatened in one of NZ's most expensive suburbs with a gang of twenty something boys and girls kindly suggesting that she retire to her country of origin, I can see that there is still some time before the various lines trotted out actually end up being agreed upon; NZ is still a long way away from considering itself Asian.

Business people consider NZ/Australia part of Asia, and who wouldn't want to be, since for NZ, USA have long been punishing sheep/dairy exports to USA in retaliation for NZ going nuclear free (great article a few years back in Unlimited about how USA can do this systematically without tariffs/quotas) while Europe under the EU became increasingly tough to tap, as the English stopped paying for the butter mountain from NZ, and started preferring to buy le fromage yellow (is that how they say it?) from subsidised French farmers instead. Then you have China, Japan and big markets like Thailand a whole lot closer and growing a fair bit faster; what is there not to like? For Australia, raw resource exporter a-gogo, Asia is a great market and not so far away.

Thus the cliche; 'we are part of Asia, together onward and upward, blah blah blah.' Politicians when visiting these countries love to spout drivel like this. They imply we are all one happy family. But as most Asians growing up in those countries can attest, it isn't exactly Burt and Ernie.

Back on the farm....The idea for some people of non-Asian descent who are back in Hamilton or Tauranga that 'those people with the slanty eyes my dad fought against in WW2' are now actually one of us must be too much to bear. They definitely don't consider themselves to be Asian in the slightest. Specifically, the elderly, white surpremists from Christchurch, NZ First voters and most private school WASP type families feel that NZ is most definitely European, and that's the line of history I was taught at school there; we studied American history, European history, English history, a white man's view of New Zeland history - not much Maori or Asian focus there. Might have changed a bit, but essentially, NZ is 80% European descent (and falling) - most of those people don't consider themselves to be ethnically Asian, or even that the country is part of Asia. Their ancestors are from Scotland, Ireland, Norway, etc - not <deleted> Phnom Phen. They probably think Phnom Phen is Sean's younger brother. Actually, that is not true, NZers tend to have fairly decent geography skills, but how else could I work in that punchline?

Mind you, these days go to Queen St, Japaranga or Chowick, and you could be hard pressed to see a single white face. Times are a'changing, and business waits for no one.

Will be a while until the two ideas mesh, and NZ figures out where it is going to sit. THe opposition leader Don Brash (I assume he is still trying it on) loves to reach out to the Asian voter, saying stuff like 'well I understand Asia, my wife, a Singaporean....' I mean pleeeeuz if every man porking some foreign bit of totty immediately understood the culture being, er, 'given pleasures' then surely you would be seeing an awful lot of cultural understanding?!

But in the meantime, politicians, smart politicians, need to watch what they say. Helen Clark, a well known ranter 'to say things aren't going well in Iraq is a bit of an understatement' I think was one of her lines within the first few days of one of NZ's biggest allies cruising off for 'bomb some Arabs al dante' winning her much acclaim with Labour voters back home and severely would have dented Kiwi/American relations had the President had time to break his concentration from Playstation 2 Grand Theft Auto San Andreas long enough to listen to 'Hulun Cluck' and her manly hair.

My guess is that for NZ, at least, they have virtually no clue about what is going on here; my only (admittedly very limited) dealings with the NZ embassy show for the most part a fairly basic understanding at best of Thai politics and how things work around here; they probably may have been the ones telling Clarkey what to say. And at the end of it, she probably stuck her size 10 sheep farming boot back in her mouth. At the end of the day, NZ must like Thailand a fair bit, or else they wouldn't have signed the FTA. Plus half of the TRT kids are studying/have studied there. Brats that they were, I certainly would have hoped they made a more positive impact on Whangarei, the place is still a dump.

Fortunately, in the case of NZ, I have an inbuilt switch for Labour politicians with manly soothing tones called sleep mode, so I missed what was said; however I am sure I can guess.

I suspect Anand's comments were taken a little out of context, but at the end of the day, screw u Hulun and ya trite comments. Whatever they were, I fell asleep trying to listen to them.

Stupid Labour. Bring back Buck.

Please vote here:

www.biggestsidetrackpostingonthaivisa.com

or here:

www.this_is_a_load_of_drivel_I_made_up.org

to help me win fame and fortuen.

Edited November 13, 2006 by steveromagnino

[ColPyat]

Reading up on Anand, it is rather interesting that his low opinion on western leaders does appearantly not stop him from being a member of the infamous Carlyle group.

Nice.

[Grover]

Anands comments ring true. I felt AU & NZ comments were sadly out of touch with the reality of the situation. My 2 bahts worth.

[Spenthouse]

can't escape the fact that anand is an ex-pm (albeit appointed), but sometimes the logic of his drivel does come across as odd while brazenly kowtowing to the chinese political sentiment. he was spouting the same kind of tones when he chaired the un panel on threats and challenges to the security council.

[younghusband]

Anand is right, people who can't understand the coup can't claim to be Asians. Not all Asians and not all Thais accept it either, but generally there's an understanding that Thaksin went too far and that military simply put the country back in line. Democracy is not the natural way of life in Asia. People aren't born equal here like in the West, some votes count for more than others.

Anand was making a reasonable point (basically your second sentence), though I don't necessarily agree with it.I can asure you that Khun Anand would strongly disagree with your two final sentences.

I know the man reasonably well, a liberal anglophile and a product of Dulwich and Cambridge.He would certainly argue that Asians are as entitled to democratic freedoms as anyone else, and that all human beings have equal value.Like most Thais and Brits for that matter he accords the royal family a special status, but otherwise he would certainly say all people are born equal.

You keep on trying to introduce some kind of weird caste system, presumably Indian influenced.Made sense centuries ago.Just Disneyland now.You'll be suggesting widows should throw themselves on the funeral pyres of their husbands next!

[ColPyat]

I know the man reasonably well, a liberal anglophile and a product of Dulwich and Cambridge.He would certainly argue that Asians are as entitled to democratic freedoms as anyone else, and that all human beings have equal value.

There are right now many so called liberals who struggle to justify the military coup, and do get severely attacked for this by some of their collegues. Similar situation as the split between the left wingers who joined Thaksin against the ones who opposed him.

Fortunately there still are the few odd ones around who argue on a policy base, have neither joined Thaksin, nor the junta.

I do reserve my respect for them. Things are not as black and white as is implied by the bad Thaksin vs. good Military debate, and the lines between Thaksin and the present powers are a bit to grey and overlapping for my taste.

People such as Thongchai Winitchakul, Giles Ungpakorn etc. reinforce my believe in humanity here, even though their very intelligent, moderate and diversified arguments are fringe opinions that are silenced by the increasingly fanatical majority from both sides of the fence.