A Better Image

[the swagman]

I was talking to some monks today about many issues and would like someones feedback. Thanks.

(it all helps)

- The news on tv at night. We only here about the bad news, the killings, the atrocities, the murders , the tragedies and catastropies. We rarely here of the good news, the good stories, some good work that is being done somewhere by someone. Buddhism is taking a beating (too strong?) at the moment, the ongoing dispute within the Buddhist community concerning the Supreme Patriach and his sucessor, monks behaving badly, coyote dancing in temples, and a general decline in faith.

Correct me if I am wrong but didn't Buddha teach not to promote yourself and not to want for admoration or reward.

We discussed how can the monks teach the youth of today that the Dharma is relevent to their lives. The youth have so much to do and the pace of life is so quick now.

So may question,

"Can Buddhism and the monks teach the people of the relevence of their faith without self promotion?"

[Grover]

I was talking to some monks today about many issues and would like someones feedback. Thanks.

(it all helps)

- The news on tv at night. We only here about the bad news, the killings, the atrocities, the murders , the tragedies and catastropies. We rarely here of the good news, the good stories, some good work that is being done somewhere by someone. Buddhism is taking a beating (too strong?) at the moment, the ongoing dispute within the Buddhist community concerning the Supreme Patriach and his sucessor, monks behaving badly, coyote dancing in temples, and a general decline in faith.

Correct me if I am wrong but didn't Buddha teach not to promote yourself and not to want for admoration or reward.

We discussed how can the monks teach the youth of today that the Dharma is relevent to their lives. The youth have so much to do and the pace of life is so quick now.

So may question,

"Can Buddhism and the monks teach the people of the relevence of their faith without self promotion?"

'Self promotion' and teaching people of the relevence of the Buddhist faith are pretty much two separate things.

Self promotion in the sense of saying (FALSELY) to lay people: 'I have magical powers.', 'I have super-knowledge like the Buddha', 'I have achieved awakening in meditation', etc. is a mistake of the most serious kind. It's up there with killing, sex and grand theft.

So unless the monk says something like, "I can teach you how to attain Nirvana because I have already been there... trust me " (when he is knowingly lying), then the Monk is automatically no longer a monk.

[the swagman]

No Grover, not self promoting that way. I understand what you say. What I am talking about is promoting the religion and telling people of all the good things monks are doing for the people and the community and the benefits of Dharma.

I am not saying about monks self promoting themselves.

[Grover]

G'day swagman. Just quickly, the "unless" in my last post should be replaced by "if", but I think you knew what I meant.

I've thought about what you said, and I think monks often talk about the benefits of Dharma to lay people. It's a recurring theme. Sometimes the Abbot or a monk will ask (directly or indirectly) for donations to build or renovate the temple. This is normal.

What I am talking about is promoting the religion and telling people of all the good things monks are doing for the people and the community and the benefits of Dharma.

Most of this stuff seems ok, I think. The thing to always keep in mind is the motive of the monk (or any Buddhist for that matter) when he acts or speaks. For example, if a monk touches a woman in any way, it must be accompanied by a lustful INTENTION for it to properly be considered a monk 'sin'. If he brushes against a woman in a bus, accidentaly, it is not nearly as serious. But it should be considered if there is an unconsious motive also.

Coming back to your question, the monk can talk freely about 'promoting' Buddhism unless he is motivated on some level by hate, greed or lust. Action normally flows properly from a 'pure' motive.

Then there is the case of ignorance. This is why monks without 5 years in the monkhood are generally not allowed to speak in public, although it is not a foolproof method.

[the swagman]

Thanks for your replies Grover.

The monks I was speaking to, are all with 20+ years in the monkhood, are very well educated and hold responsible positions in various parts of the country.

Schools are cutting Dharma classes, and 'moral' classes, the youth of today are not 'turned on' by religion, there are too many distractions, society has changed from 2000 years ago, its changed in the last 10. One of the monks talked about opening college for Buddhism in the NE, one wants to classes back into schools, one or two of them are going overseas, others are studying to take the knowledge back to their temples and try to implent changes within there area.

My question is, 'with Buddhism being a faith which doesn't openly jump into social reform actions, nor open businesses or schools for profit, and removes itself from the affairs fo the state, how can it show its good side and its good work?'

Edited November 15, 2006 by the swagman

[chownah]

the youth of today are not 'turned on' by religion,

Within the context of Buddhism in Thailand I think it would be good to point out that what they see at their local wats and temples is pretty far from what the Buddha taught and what they see does not make sense to them. They are not turned on by tatoos that are supposed to give someone invincibility in battle but really don't...they are not turned on by magic numbers that are supposed to win the lottery...but don't....they are not turned on by a lot of ritual that they do not unerstand and that seems to accomplish nothing.....they are not turned on by the activities they see at their local temples but what they see is not really what the Buddha taught.....in my view.

Chownah

[the swagman]

Agreed , so what to do?

[Grover]

My question is, 'with Buddhism being a faith which doesn't openly jump into social reform actions, nor open businesses or schools for profit, and removes itself from the affairs fo the state, how can it show its good side and its good work?'

Buddhism has always been about changing yourself within rather than changing the world. Its good side is reflected in the behaviour of people who take the Buddhist teachings to heart. Some appropriate 'good' Buddhist words that pop into mind are 'merit making', generosity, unconditional love, moral precepts, wisdom & insight.

I don't know if this helps, but it is not such an easy question for me to answer. There seems to be questions behind the question, perhaps I just need a coffee.

[chownah]

Agreed , so what to do?

I guess what I intend to do is to just keep doing what I've been doing all along and that is to live my life by doing my best to follow the Dhamma as taught by the Buddha and to support activities that actually do involve the teachings of the Buddha and to do what I can to help myself and others to learn more and have better understanding of the Buddha's teachings.

To me all this hulabaloo about the politics of Buddhism in Thailand contains nothing that helps to spread the Buddha's teachings and it has the possible down side that it distracts people away from the teachings and sidetracks them into lines of conditioning that are not conducive to learning the Buddha's message and ultimately to liberation.....but of course this is only my view and I'm not trying to convince anyone that my view is special in any way other than it comes from this imagined self of mine.

Chownah

Edited November 15, 2006 by chownah

[Grover]

To me all this hulabaloo about the politics of Buddhism in Thailand contains nothing that helps to spread the Buddha's teachings and it has the possible down side that it distracts people away from the teachings and sidetracks them into lines of conditioning that are not conducive to learning the Buddha's message and ultimately to liberation.....but of course this is only my view and I'm not trying to convince anyone that my view is special in any way other than it comes from this imagined self of mine.

Chownah

I agree Chownah. The current politics issue is a shame & quite embarassing for Buddhism IMO. It reminds me of a family fighting over the inheritance.

Nevertheless, it is Thai Buddhism, and from that point of view I am giving it my attention.

[the swagman]

I apologize for the clumsy way of asking the question. I know what I want to ask and perhaps its best said spontaeously rather than writing, and in short choppy questions.

It came up the other day and we discussed long, without coming to any sort of even near conclusion, I just wanted a different perspective on it.

What's going on is politics and the people I am in contact with do view it as it is.

I should have read many of the other threads here as, many relevent points came up.

Cheers