So what did the Brexit supporters gain?

[SgtRock]

7 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

But was not returning power back to parliamentary sovereignty one of the objectives of the leave campaign

 

Yes, returning power back to Parliament from the EU.

 

Not to be confused with Parliament and UK Citizens.

[AlexRich]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

 

Your democracy is when it suits your agenda. BTW it seems everyone else has had enough of your world in La La Land and left you to debate on your own, maybe now you might get an answer you like eh?

 

Yawn. Questions too difficult?

[dick dasterdly]

47 minutes ago, Orac said:

 

 

Taken from Farage's twitter feed:


The British people voted for a points-based migration system. There must be no backsliding on Brexit. https://t.co/C5ADCel8OE

 

 

 

 

 

 

Fair enough - Farage claiming that the Brits. voted for a points-based migration system is yet another lie.....  We've seen many from both the brexit and remain camp .

 

But then again those claiming that democracy is best served by ignoring the referendum, or calling for a parliamentary vote/ another referendum etc. are trying to find a way to circumvent the truly democratic referendum. 

Edited September 6, 2016 by dick dasterdly

[rockingrobin]

13 minutes ago, SgtRock said:

 

Yes, returning power back to Parliament from the EU.

 

Not to be confused with Parliament and UK Citizens.

 

[rockingrobin]

5 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Fair enough - Farage claiming that the Brits. voted for a points-based migration system is yet another lie.....  We've seen many from both the brexit and remain camp .

 

But then again those claiming that democracy is best served by ignoring the referendum, or calling for a parliamentary vote/ referendum etc. are trying to find a way to circumvent the truly democratic referendum. 

“By the next general election, we will create a genuine Australian-style points-based immigration system. The automatic right of all EU citizens to come to live and work in the UK will end, as will EU control over vital aspects of our social security system,” they wrote.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/01/boris-johnson-insists-not-presenting-post-cameron-government-vote-leave

[AlexRich]

2 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

 

Not convinced that a comedian's story was reasoned proposition rather than an anecdote .

 

But I'm looking forward to hearing your superior "debate and argument" as to how the comedian's joke was actually a "reasoned proposition".

 

I think you'll find that he was referring to the statement made by the Japanese government and not the comments of a comedian on Question Time. To state that foreign companies may leave the UK if the terms are not to their liking is not idle speculation ... and the Japanese statement and statement by the Lloyds insurance market proves that conclusively. 

 

The point made by one of the posters was that no one actually believed that people would be sent home. I emphasise "no one". I referred to vox pop TV interviews from people that actually thought that, and the personal story told by a guy who was a guest on Question Time. His point was that his uncles, aunties, cousins etc actually did believe that, for example, Polish people would be going home. He wasn't debating or arguing, he was just relaying his experience.  

 

Nice try at obfuscation.

 

 

Edited September 6, 2016 by AlexRich

[dick dasterdly]

4 hours ago, sandyf said:

There has only ever been 3 full UK referendums which is a good indication of the part they play in UK politics. All 3 have been call as a confidence booster for government policy but unfortunately the latest was badly managed and backfired on the government. Another referendum wouldn't have any more credibility than the last one.

UK politics revolves around Parliament Sovereignty but in this case it is being bypassed in favour of an unreliable perception of the issue supported by a legacy from the dark ages.

Why a desperation to circumvent the political process, at the end of the day if MP's follow their constituents the outcome should be the same and a lot more credible. After all they are the elected representatives of the people.

 

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

No.  Politicians made the mistake of thinking they would win the referendum - thus 'shutting up' those who had serious problems with various aspects of the EU.

 

"Legacy from the dark ages" is ridiculous rhetoric at best.

 

The electorate know that politicians are untrustworthy - and consequently (unlike you) have no respect for the "Parliament Sovereignty".

 

27 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

But was not returning power back to parliamentary sovereignty one of the objectives of the leave campaign

Good point!

 

Except returning parliamentary sovereignty is (in this exchange of views) is an excuse for ignoring democracy.

[AlexRich]

10 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Fair enough - Farage claiming that the Brits. voted for a points-based migration system is yet another lie.....  We've seen many from both the brexit and remain camp .

 

But then again those claiming that democracy is best served by ignoring the referendum, or calling for a parliamentary vote/ referendum etc. are trying to find a way to circumvent the truly democratic referendum. 

 

What I would like to see is a vote on the terms of the exit ... i.e. let the Government put the deal in front of the people and announce a general election. I suspect that is what will happen as the delay in negotiations might well take us up to the next General Election.

 

Farage lying is just par for the course. He criticised Obama for making a statement on Brexit and then jumps on the Trump campaign and interferes in the US election. 

[Orac]

Fair enough - Farage claiming that the Brits. voted for a points-based migration system is yet another lie.....  We've seen many from both the brexit and remain camp [emoji20].

 

But then again those claiming that democracy is best served by ignoring the referendum, or calling for a parliamentary vote/ referendum etc. are trying to find a way to circumvent the truly democratic referendum. 

The referendum should not be ignored however, before a final commitment is made, there must be some sort of democratic acceptance of the terms of brexit once they have been defined which can only happen after article 50 has been triggered so that official negotiations with the EU can be had.

[AlexRich]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

Farage warning May about backsliding (if he did this as the Express is FAR from a reputable source) is about the democratic referendum.

 

Those trying to circumvent this are those trying to ignore democracy.

 

Well there is a legal case at the moment on whether parliament should be the body that approves the triggering of Article 50 ... may well go to the Supreme Court and European Court. It's not circumventing democracy, as the referendum was advisory, it is merely trying to ensure that the law of the nation is properly complied with.

 

Please note ... Express not the only source.

 

 

[dick dasterdly]

24 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

“

 

31 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Fair enough - Farage claiming that the Brits. voted for a points-based migration system is yet another lie.....  We've seen many from both the brexit and remain camp .

 

But then again those claiming that democracy is best served by ignoring the referendum, or calling for a parliamentary vote/ referendum etc. are trying to find a way to circumvent the truly democratic referendum. 

 

24 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

“By the next general election, we will create a genuine Australian-style points-based immigration system. The automatic right of all EU citizens to come to live and work in the UK will end, as will EU control over vital aspects of our social security system,” they wrote.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/01/boris-johnson-insists-not-presenting-post-cameron-government-vote-leave

Why bother continuing when I've already said that it was yet another lie - amongst the many lies told by both sides??

Edited September 6, 2016 by dick dasterdly

[dick dasterdly]

14 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

I think you'll find that he was referring to the statement made by the Japanese government and not the comments of a comedian on Question Time. To state that foreign companies may leave the UK if the terms are not to their liking is not idle speculation ... and the Japanese statement and statement by the Lloyds insurance market proves that conclusively. 

 

The point made by one of the posters was that no one actually believed that people would be sent home. I emphasis "no one". I referred to vox pop TV interviews from people that actually thought that, and the personal story told by a guy who was a guest on Question Time. His point was that his uncles, aunties, cousins etc actually did believe that, for example, Polish people would be going home. He wasn't debating or arguing, he was just relaying his experience.  

 

Nice try at obfuscation.

 

 

I posted the full list of quotes, but you're trying to pretend the comment was about something else....

 

And that's another of the things that annoy me about 'remainers' - not only do they insist that anyone who voted for brexit was unintelligent/uneducated etc. - they also ignore the 'thread' of posts, preferring to take one post to suit their own end.

 

Anyone with an iota of intelligence would have read my quoted posts, but this poster prefers to ignore that, quote the last post, and pretend that is a reasoned discussion.... 

[dick dasterdly]

19 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

What I would like to see is a vote on the terms of the exit ... i.e. let the Government put the deal in front of the people and announce a general election. I suspect that is what will happen as the delay in negotiations might well take us up to the next General Election.

 

Farage lying is just par for the course. He criticised Obama for making a statement on Brexit and then jumps on the Trump campaign and interferes in the US election. 

I've said this before, and will say it again.

 

The vast majority of politicians made it clear that they preferred to stay in the EU (including May).

 

If the option of another referendum (following negotiations) is allowed, there's little chance that they will do anything other than come up with the worst terms possible.

[vogie]

2 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I posted the full list of quotes, but you're trying to pretend the comment was about something else....

 

And that's another of the things that annoy me about 'remainers' - not only do they insist that anyone who voted for brexit was unintelligent/uneducated etc. - they also ignore the 'thread' of posts, preferring to take one post to suit their own end.

 

Anyone with an iota of intelligence would have read my quoted posts, but this poster prefers to ignore that, quote the last post, and pretend that is a reasoned discussion.... 

 

You have hit the nail on the head when you wrote "anyone with an iota of intelligence" 

[AlexRich]

4 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I posted the full list of quotes, but you're trying to pretend the comment was about something else....

 

And that's another of the things that annoy me about 'remainers' - not only do they insist that anyone who voted for brexit was unintelligent/uneducated etc. - they also ignore the 'thread' of posts, preferring to take one post to suit their own end.

 

Anyone with an iota of intelligence would have read my quoted posts, but this poster prefers to ignore that, quote the last post, and pretend that is a reasoned discussion.... 

 

The poster in question specifically referred to the Japanese government, he never mentioned anything about the comedian on question time, I did. And I did so in response to a poster who claims no one thought that people would be sent home. Well, some did ... a response to the idea that "no one" thought that.  

 

If discussions that refer to the Japanese document, Lloyds insurance market, etc are not reasonable additions to a reasoned discussion then you have simply lost the argument. 

 

 

[AlexRich]

6 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I've said this before, and will say it again.

 

The vast majority of politicians made it clear that they preferred to stay in the EU (including May).

 

If the option of another referendum (following negotiations) is allowed, there's little chance that they will do anything other than come up with the worst terms possible.

 

No one asked for another referendum? But what you are suggesting is that the politicians would deliberately negotiate poor terms so that what's on offer will be rejected? By "they" you are referring to Johnson, Davis and Fox ... supporters of Brexit? 

 

Your arguments are all over the place.

 

 

 

 

 

[dick dasterdly]

25 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

The poster in question specifically referred to the Japanese government, he never mentioned anything about the comedian on question time, I did. And I did so in response to a poster who claims no one thought that people would be sent home. Well, some did ... a response to the idea that "no one" thought that.  

 

If discussions that refer to the Japanese document, Lloyds insurance market, etc are not reasonable additions to a reasoned discussion then you have simply lost the argument. 

 

 

And I'm sure that your supporters will believe this .

 

Quoting all the comments is a 'pain in the neck'  - but great for posters such as yourself that prefer to ignore the previous posts.

Edited September 6, 2016 by dick dasterdly

[AlexRich]

9 minutes ago, vogie said:

 

You have hit the nail on the head when you wrote "anyone with an iota of intelligence" 

 

That's the problem you have, I'm glad you are beginning to recognise it  ... if you don't have the intelligence to debate the point, resort to petty insults?

 

Every time you respond in that fashion you lose credibility. Best step off the plate, there's a good chap.

 

[AlexRich]

3 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

And I'm sure that your supporters will believe this .

 

Quoting all the comments is a 'pain in the neck'  - but great for posters such as yourself that prefer to ignore the previous posts - a great boon.....

 

I'm not a football team, I don't have supporters. I express my own views, as do others, both for and against.

 

I don't ignore any posts, I generally reply to them all (if I can be bothered). Keep obfuscating ... it saves you time responding to points made.

 

 

 

 

[dick dasterdly]

11 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

That's the problem you have, I'm glad you are beginning to recognise it  ... if you don't have the intelligence to debate the point, resort to petty insults?

 

Every time you respond in that fashion you lose credibility. Best step off the plate, there's a good chap.

 

REALLY ??

 

I've no doubt that you think yourself incredibly intelligent  - but your posts prove otherwise.

 

With a bit of luck a mod will be along soon to delete all these posts that rely on nothing other than insulting those with a different opinion .

Edited September 6, 2016 by dick dasterdly

[Khun Han]

44 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

I think you'll find that he was referring to the statement made by the Japanese government and not the comments of a comedian on Question Time. To state that foreign companies may leave the UK if the terms are not to their liking is not idle speculation ... and the Japanese statement and statement by the Lloyds insurance market proves that conclusively. 

 

The point made by one of the posters was that no one actually believed that people would be sent home. I emphasise "no one". I referred to vox pop TV interviews from people that actually thought that, and the personal story told by a guy who was a guest on Question Time. His point was that his uncles, aunties, cousins etc actually did believe that, for example, Polish people would be going home. He wasn't debating or arguing, he was just relaying his experience.  

 

Nice try at obfuscation.

 

 

 

I suspect that your dishonesty stems from your superiority complex: you obviously think that other posters are too stupid to notice it.

 

The poster in question (me) replied to a single post by you about an Essex comedian on Question Time discussing brexiter racism. I pointed out that your post was nothing more than anecdote. It was YOU who tried to change the subject to Japan.

 

You're getting tiresome, Alex, and I expect the forum mods have noticed.

[dick dasterdly]

21 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

No one asked for another referendum? But what you are suggesting is that the politicians would deliberately negotiate poor terms so that what's on offer will be rejected? By "they" you are referring to Johnson, Davis and Fox ... supporters of Brexit? 

 

Your arguments are all over the place.

 

 

 

 

 

Why on earth would you think that I was talking about the rare 'brexit' politician?

 

You make the mistake of thinking I trust any politician .

 

May campaigned for the remain side, but is now making all the 'right noises' about leaving the EU.

 

Do I believe it?  Not really, but perhaps I'm too cynical when it comes to politicians.

[dick dasterdly]

28 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

That's the problem you have, I'm glad you are beginning to recognise it  ... if you don't have the intelligence to debate the point, resort to petty insults?

 

Every time you respond in that fashion you lose credibility. Best step off the plate, there's a good chap.

 

You're making the mistake of thinking that those of us who actually are intelligent - consider you as such....

[ljd1308]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

Fair enough - Farage claiming that the Brits. voted for a points-based migration system is yet another lie.....  We've seen many from both the brexit and remain camp .

 

But then again those claiming that democracy is best served by ignoring the referendum, or calling for a parliamentary vote/ another referendum etc. are trying to find a way to circumvent the truly democratic referendum. 

Isn't that the issue though?

 

Here you have after the fact one of the leading campaigners for Brexit not understanding why people voted for Brexit.

If that was what the referendum was for, it may have made sense....but the referendum was so vague anybody could take anything from it, so how could a logical decision be taken?

 

What about people reading that from farage who voted for a different reason, won't they be disappointed to find out that was the case and want to change their vote now if they could?

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, ljd1308 said:

Isn't that the issue though?

 

Here you have after the fact one of the leading campaigners for Brexit not understanding why people voted for Brexit.

If that was what the referendum was for, it may have made sense....but the referendum was so vague anybody could take anything from it, so how could a logical decision be taken?

 

What about people reading that from farage who voted for a different reason, won't they be disappointed to find out that was the case and want to change their vote now if they could?

Not really.  Those who voted leave were concerned about various things - hence the 'leave' vote.

 

Farage's 'misinterpretation of facts'   is pretty much irrelevant - assuming its true.

 

 

 

[dick dasterdly]

10 minutes ago, ljd1308 said:

Isn't that the issue though?

 

Here you have after the fact one of the leading campaigners for Brexit not understanding why people voted for Brexit.

If that was what the referendum was for, it may have made sense....but the referendum was so vague anybody could take anything from it, so how could a logical decision be taken?

 

What about people reading that from farage who voted for a different reason, won't they be disappointed to find out that was the case and want to change their vote now if they could?

And yet another poster that makes the mistake of thinking I'm a 'brexit' campaigner.....

 

I have serious reservations about brexit, as I trust Brit. govts. even less than I trust EU govts!

 

But I do understand why so many voted for 'the devil they don't know'.  Its a sad indictment of not only the EU, but also the Brit. govt. 

[ljd1308]

15 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Not really.  Those who voted leave were concerned about various things - hence the 'leave' vote.

 

Farage's 'misinterpretation of facts'   is pretty much irrelevant - assuming its true.

 

 

 

Not if the reasons for voting don't come to fruition, so far I have been given the following reasons for voting to leave(i will leave my personal views out of the list):

 

- Wanting a points based immigration system

- Xenophobia

- My forefathers fought Germany

- So fishermen don't have quotas

- MEPs get paid too much

- 350m a week back in to the NHS

- Economic reasons

- Pensions are failing

- So we do not have to comply to EU regulations

- Better trade deals outside of the EU

- Every Somali immigrant in the UK is too high for work due to a 200 pound a year drug habit

 

There are no doubt many more, but unless every single reason for voting is addressed in the Brexit agreement some people will not get what they voted for. 

If 1m people voted due to the fisherman and they still have to abide by quotas, then potentially those 1m people will want to change their vote as they are not getting what they voted for

 

That is the issue with the vagueness of the question.....nobody knows.

 

Don't you think that people should know what they are voting for before voting?

Edited September 6, 2016 by ljd1308

[vogie]

1 hour ago, AlexRich said:

 

That's the problem you have, I'm glad you are beginning to recognise it  ... if you don't have the intelligence to debate the point, resort to petty insults?

 

Every time you respond in that fashion you lose credibility. Best step off the plate, there's a good chap.

 

Do you ever read what you write? You are so full of self importance and arrogance, now you are patronising. Its very difficult to respond to posts like yours as they are full of BS, but more importantly your attitude stinks. Do you honestly think that you can talk down to people, who the hell do you think you are!!! Everybody on here are wrong and only you are right. You certainly have a superiour complex, you need help.

 

1 hour ago, AlexRich said:

 

 

[ljd1308]

20 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

And yet another poster that makes the mistake of thinking I'm a 'brexit' campaigner.....

 

I have serious reservations about brexit, as I trust Brit. govts. even less than I trust EU govts!

 

But I do understand why so many voted for 'the devil they don't know'.  Its a sad indictment of not only the EU, but also the Brit. govt. 

I didn't make that mistake, i replied to you to debate the point you made as you seemed a more reasonable poster than other's that did vote to leave. When I referred to "Brexit Campaigners" i was referring to farage, not you.

 

I distinctly recall you stating you abstained as you could not decide which way to vote.

[dick dasterdly]

9 minutes ago, ljd1308 said:

Not if the reasons for voting don't come to fruition, so far I have been given the following reasons for voting to leave(i will leave my personal views out of the list):

 

- Wanting a points based immigration system

- Xenophobia

- My forefathers fought Germany

- So fishermen don't have quotas

- MEPs get paid too much

- 350m a week back in to the NHS

- Economic reasons

- Pensions are failing

- So we do not have to comply to EU regulations

- Better trade deals outside of the EU

- Every Somali immigrant in the UK is too high for work due to a 200 pound a year drug habit

 

There are no doubt many more, but unless every single reason for voting is addressed in the Brexit agreement some people will not get what they voted for. 

If 1m people voted due to the fisherman and they still have to abide by quotas, then potentially those 1m people will want to change their vote as they are not getting what they voted for

 

That is the issue with the vagueness of the question.....nobody knows.

 

Don't you think that people should know what they are voting for before voting?

1- First time I've heard about a points based immigration system.  But its not a bad idea.

2- The stand-by of remainers.

3- I'm sure Brit. fisherman have their own interpretation of the fishing quota.

4- Obviously the typical politicians' lie.

5-Pensions have been failing/decimated for a few decades now.

6- Brit. companies have been complying with EU regs for a long time now - so no reason why they would fail the test once we leave.

7- Who knows?  We'll find out.

8-And that's where it becomes a stupid to support the 'cause'.a

 

But I do agree that nobody knows how it will turn out.

 

All the 'experts' assured us that Britain (not to mention the world) would immediately collapse in the event of 'Brexit' vote.  This didn't happen, so the goal-posts have been shifted.