Germany rape law: Will 'no mean no'?

[webfact]

Germany rape law: Will 'no mean no'?
By Becky Branford
BBC News

BERLIN: -- Germany's lower house of parliament, the Bundestag, is expected to pass a new law expanding the legal definition of what constitutes rape - widely referred to as the "no means no" statute.

Critics believe Germany has long lagged behind other developed nations when it comes to its rape laws, but will this fix the problem?

What is the problem, anyway?

Under existing law, defined in Section 177 of the criminal code (in German), victims should have defended themselves for an act to constitute rape. Simply saying "no" is not sufficient to find the defendant guilty, and there is no attempt to define what constitutes consent.

Full story: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36726095

-- BBC 2016-07-07

[ddavidovsky]

Ridiculous and dangerous legislation. Fact is some women do say no without meaning it - presumably to assuage their feelings of guilt when doing it with someone new the first time.

Real life example 1:

I was in hotel room with a girl (mid-20s). It was her room (she was on business) and she invited me. We'd met several times before on platonic dates. There were two single beds. After some intimacy we both got in one of the beds and she was in pole position, but as the moment approached she started moaning 'no... no... no'. This bothered me a lot so I said okay then and went to other bed, determined to give up and go to sleep. Stony silence ensued but before long she started cajoling and made it clear she wanted me back. So I went back to her bed and discovered how much she really wanted it.

Real life example 2.

With a different girl I met in on an internet chat room (the only time that ever happened, btw). After a drink in the local pub she was clearly up for it and agreed to stay over at my place which had obviously been her intention all along. After some canoodling we were in bed, lights out, and then the same moaning started: 'no... no... no... no...' I didn't like that at all, but I figured by now that this was just part of the routine for some women. I deliberated with myself and decided she was perfectly free to get up and walk out, or at least get off the bed - there was no physical coercion and she wasn't drunk. So I carried on, and on penetration - I kid you not - she said 'suck my tits'. It was exactly like that: "no...no...no...no...suck my tits' without pause. I burst out laughing, but not without reflecting what a difficult and dangerous position women such as this put men into.

This is a serious issue and innocent lives could be ruined by guilt-stricken women who decide they don't like what they've done the next morning. The law needs to be written by people with real-world experience who will understand that 'no' sometimes means 'I feel guilty about this but do it anyway'.

The real criteria is whether the woman is free to get up and walk away. (Of course, if she's been drugged, that's another matter, but let's keep those issues separate.)

[OMGImInPattaya]

They would still be behind the Swedes...where if you complement a woman on her physical appearance it's considered rape.

[nausea]

I would've thought it's fairly obvious when a woman wants to go to bed with you, at least in my experience. If it's a 50/50 situation, don't go there. Pointless, silly, legislation - of course, "No" means "No". What happens during the act itself is another matter, we all have fantasies, women included.

[Rancid]

Well at least that legislation solves the Islamic migrant rape problem in Germany. Not as clever as the Swedish wrist bands, but will be just as effective. See government can fix any problem with new laws.

[Ulic]

In my youth (many years ago) I did have 3-4 girls say no. I always stopped. They

all complained bitterly after that I had spoiled the mood by stopping. They wanted

very much for me to continue but just wanted to not feel guilty about doing the

"business" That said no has always meant no to me and always will. Of course when

partners get older the bullshit of these games dissipate somewhat. Thank goodness.

[abrahamzvi]

Ridiculous and dangerous legislation. Fact is some women do say no without meaning it - presumably to assuage their feelings of guilt when doing it with someone new the first time.

Real life example 1:

I was in hotel room with a girl (mid-20s). It was her room (she was on business) and she invited me. We'd met several times before on platonic dates. There were two single beds. After some intimacy we both got in one of the beds and she was in pole position, but as the moment approached she started moaning 'no... no... no'. This bothered me a lot so I said okay then and went to other bed, determined to give up and go to sleep. Stony silence ensued but before long she started cajoling and made it clear she wanted me back. So I went back to her bed and discovered how much she really wanted it.

Real life example 2.

With a different girl I met in on an internet chat room (the only time that ever happened, btw). After a drink in the local pub she was clearly up for it and agreed to stay over at my place which had obviously been her intention all along. After some canoodling we were in bed, lights out, and then the same moaning started: 'no... no... no... no...' I didn't like that at all, but I figured by now that this was just part of the routine for some women. I deliberated with myself and decided she was perfectly free to get up and walk out, or at least get off the bed - there was no physical coercion and she wasn't drunk. So I carried on, and on penetration - I kid you not - she said 'suck my tits'. It was exactly like that: "no...no...no...no...suck my tits' without pause. I burst out laughing, but not without reflecting what a difficult and dangerous position women such as this put men into.

This is a serious issue and innocent lives could be ruined by guilt-stricken women who decide they don't like what they've done the next morning. The law needs to be written by people with real-world experience who will understand that 'no' sometimes means 'I feel guilty about this but do it anyway'.

The real criteria is whether the woman is free to get up and walk away. (Of course, if she's been drugged, that's another matter, but let's keep those issues separate.)

What the proposed law in Germany means is to make sure that women's wishes are respected. The "nos" that you describe are something completely different.

As far as the "danger" you are referring to, even under the present law, there is nothing to prevent a woman reporting to the police a "rape" in the form prescribed by the present law. Here we are referring to decent women who are facing men who are not prepare to take no for an answer, Such "machos" should be punishable by law.

[Emster23]

They would still be behind the Swedes...where if you complement a woman on her physical appearance it's considered rape.

Hear this on Fox or something? Or maybe Mr. Facts (aka your avatar Trump said it, so must be true?). Here is a link to Swedish Penal Code. Take a look at section 6. http://www.government.se/contentassets/5315d27076c942019828d6c36521696e/swedish-penal-code.pdf

[thaibeachlovers]

Ridiculous and dangerous legislation. Fact is some women do say no without meaning it - presumably to assuage their feelings of guilt when doing it with someone new the first time.

Real life example 1:

I was in hotel room with a girl (mid-20s). It was her room (she was on business) and she invited me. We'd met several times before on platonic dates. There were two single beds. After some intimacy we both got in one of the beds and she was in pole position, but as the moment approached she started moaning 'no... no... no'. This bothered me a lot so I said okay then and went to other bed, determined to give up and go to sleep. Stony silence ensued but before long she started cajoling and made it clear she wanted me back. So I went back to her bed and discovered how much she really wanted it.

Real life example 2.

With a different girl I met in on an internet chat room (the only time that ever happened, btw). After a drink in the local pub she was clearly up for it and agreed to stay over at my place which had obviously been her intention all along. After some canoodling we were in bed, lights out, and then the same moaning started: 'no... no... no... no...' I didn't like that at all, but I figured by now that this was just part of the routine for some women. I deliberated with myself and decided she was perfectly free to get up and walk out, or at least get off the bed - there was no physical coercion and she wasn't drunk. So I carried on, and on penetration - I kid you not - she said 'suck my tits'. It was exactly like that: "no...no...no...no...suck my tits' without pause. I burst out laughing, but not without reflecting what a difficult and dangerous position women such as this put men into.

This is a serious issue and innocent lives could be ruined by guilt-stricken women who decide they don't like what they've done the next morning. The law needs to be written by people with real-world experience who will understand that 'no' sometimes means 'I feel guilty about this but do it anyway'.

The real criteria is whether the woman is free to get up and walk away. (Of course, if she's been drugged, that's another matter, but let's keep those issues separate.)

It's time for western men to insist on the woman signing a consent form before having sex. Even better, leave them alone and take a trip to LOS. Then they'll be complaining because no suckers men will be buying them drinks and free dinners.

Anyway, those Japanese inventors can't be far off the realistic sex android, and then few women will be getting laid anymore.

Edited July 7, 2016 by thaibeachlovers

[ddavidovsky]

What the proposed law in Germany means is to make sure that women's wishes are respected. The "nos" that you describe are something completely different.

As far as the "danger" you are referring to, even under the present law, there is nothing to prevent a woman reporting to the police a "rape" in the form prescribed by the present law. Here we are referring to decent women who are facing men who are not prepare to take no for an answer, Such "machos" should be punishable by law.

As far as I understand, the new law intends to remove all nuance of interpretation. No would mean no and that's it. The mere use of the word then implies rape, regardless of the context. The law certainly does need to take account of the context, and that's why a rigid 'no means no' rule is stupid. I don't think they could formulate a law that says 'no means no when it is said in a certain way'.

There has to be another way for the law to make the distinction. I don't see any problem with the 'free to walk away' principle.

[micmichd]

I would've thought it's fairly obvious when a woman wants to go to bed with you, at least in my experience. If it's a 50/50 situation, don't go there. Pointless, silly, legislation - of course, "No" means "No". What happens during the act itself is another matter, we all have fantasies, women included.

What happens if she just says "maybe" and then comes over you while you're in bed (or sitting on a chair) Wouldn't that have to be considered as rape by a woman?

[jope]

What the proposed law in Germany means is to make sure that women's wishes are respected. The "nos" that you describe are something completely different.

As far as the "danger" you are referring to, even under the present law, there is nothing to prevent a woman reporting to the police a "rape" in the form prescribed by the present law. Here we are referring to decent women who are facing men who are not prepare to take no for an answer, Such "machos" should be punishable by law.

As far as I understand, the new law intends to remove all nuance of interpretation. No would mean no and that's it. The mere use of the word then implies rape, regardless of the context. The law certainly does need to take account of the context, and that's why a rigid 'no means no' rule is stupid. I don't think they could formulate a law that says 'no means no when it is said in a certain way'.

There has to be another way for the law to make the distinction. I don't see any problem with the 'free to walk away' principle.

The law will not use the words "no means no ". The law will probably say "against the victim's noticeable will" (my personal translation, probably not an accurate British English law translation, but I guess, you get the idea).

Still room for interpretation but better than the old version, which required the victim's physical resistance (otherwise the crime would not have qualified as rape).

[Norvid]

This adjustment to law in Germany must be directly related to islamics raping German girls and woman. Instead getting rid of all muhammedans from all EU countries could clear the air and existing law could be upheld as it is. Perhaps.

[sanukjim]

Ridiculous and dangerous legislation. Fact is some women do say no without meaning it - presumably to assuage their feelings of guilt when doing it with someone new the first time.

Real life example 1:

I was in hotel room with a girl (mid-20s). It was her room (she was on business) and she invited me. We'd met several times before on platonic dates. There were two single beds. After some intimacy we both got in one of the beds and she was in pole position, but as the moment approached she started moaning 'no... no... no'. This bothered me a lot so I said okay then and went to other bed, determined to give up and go to sleep. Stony silence ensued but before long she started cajoling and made it clear she wanted me back. So I went back to her bed and discovered how much she really wanted it.

Real life example 2.

With a different girl I met in on an internet chat room (the only time that ever happened, btw). After a drink in the local pub she was clearly up for it and agreed to stay over at my place which had obviously been her intention all along. After some canoodling we were in bed, lights out, and then the same moaning started: 'no... no... no... no...' I didn't like that at all, but I figured by now that this was just part of the routine for some women. I deliberated with myself and decided she was perfectly free to get up and walk out, or at least get off the bed - there was no physical coercion and she wasn't drunk. So I carried on, and on penetration - I kid you not - she said 'suck my tits'. It was exactly like that: "no...no...no...no...suck my tits' without pause. I burst out laughing, but not without reflecting what a difficult and dangerous position women such as this put men into.

This is a serious issue and innocent lives could be ruined by guilt-stricken women who decide they don't like what they've done the next morning. The law needs to be written by people with real-world experience who will understand that 'no' sometimes means 'I feel guilty about this but do it anyway'.

The real criteria is whether the woman is free to get up and walk away. (Of course, if she's been drugged, that's another matter, but let's keep those issues separate.)

So they can say no to you and if you don't believe them you are going for it any way ? I hope that you end up in prison where people like you belong.

[HerbalEd]

They would still be behind the Swedes...where if you complement a woman on her physical appearance it's considered rape.

BS. Sexual harassment "maybe" ... but definitely is not considered "rape."

[tifino]

the 'NO' will need to be written in many Refugee Migrant languages

[jope]

This adjustment to law in Germany must be directly related to islamics raping German girls and woman. Instead getting rid of all muhammedans from all EU countries could clear the air and existing law could be upheld as it is. Perhaps.

This reform process was initiated before the Cologne incident. But as side effect, it may help to get a better grip on such a criminal behaviour.

[ddavidovsky]

So they can say no to you and if you don't believe them you are going for it any way ? I hope that you end up in prison where people like you belong.

So you didn't understand the context. That pretty much proves my point. Let's hope you go out and get some experience of life before being called for jury duty.

[canuckamuck]

There is no way around it. All non marital sexual interaction must now be recorded from at least 2 angles on video devices and saved on a public cloud to prove consent.

Edited July 7, 2016 by canuckamuck

[Chicog]

There is no way around it. All non marital sexual interaction must now be recorded from at least 2 angles on video devices and saved on a public cloud to prove consent.

Just carrying around legal disclaimers for potential partners to sign should leave you in the clear.

[overherebc]

What the proposed law in Germany means is to make sure that women's wishes are respected. The "nos" that you describe are something completely different.

As far as the "danger" you are referring to, even under the present law, there is nothing to prevent a woman reporting to the police a "rape" in the form prescribed by the present law. Here we are referring to decent women who are facing men who are not prepare to take no for an answer, Such "machos" should be punishable by law.

As far as I understand, the new law intends to remove all nuance of interpretation. No would mean no and that's it. The mere use of the word then implies rape, regardless of the context. The law certainly does need to take account of the context, and that's why a rigid 'no means no' rule is stupid. I don't think they could formulate a law that says 'no means no when it is said in a certain way'.

There has to be another way for the law to make the distinction. I don't see any problem with the 'free to walk away' principle.

The law will not use the words "no means no ". The law will probably say "against the victim's noticeable will" (my personal translation, probably not an accurate British English law translation, but I guess, you get the idea).

Still room for interpretation but better than the old version, which required the victim's physical resistance (otherwise the crime would not have qualified as rape).

What if she says

DON'T, STOP

[sanukjim]

So they can say no to you and if you don't believe them you are going for it any way ? I hope that you end up in prison where people like you belong.

So you didn't understand the context. That pretty much proves my point. Let's hope you go out and get some experience of life before being called for jury duty.

At 78 I will match experiences and understanding with you and day of the week "sonny"

[SoiBiker]

Ridiculous and dangerous legislation. Fact is some women do say no without meaning it - presumably to assuage their feelings of guilt when doing it with someone new the first time.

Real life example 1:

I was in hotel room with a girl (mid-20s). It was her room (she was on business) and she invited me. We'd met several times before on platonic dates. There were two single beds. After some intimacy we both got in one of the beds and she was in pole position, but as the moment approached she started moaning 'no... no... no'. This bothered me a lot so I said okay then and went to other bed, determined to give up and go to sleep. Stony silence ensued but before long she started cajoling and made it clear she wanted me back. So I went back to her bed and discovered how much she really wanted it.

Real life example 2.

With a different girl I met in on an internet chat room (the only time that ever happened, btw). After a drink in the local pub she was clearly up for it and agreed to stay over at my place which had obviously been her intention all along. After some canoodling we were in bed, lights out, and then the same moaning started: 'no... no... no... no...' I didn't like that at all, but I figured by now that this was just part of the routine for some women. I deliberated with myself and decided she was perfectly free to get up and walk out, or at least get off the bed - there was no physical coercion and she wasn't drunk. So I carried on, and on penetration - I kid you not - she said 'suck my tits'. It was exactly like that: "no...no...no...no...suck my tits' without pause. I burst out laughing, but not without reflecting what a difficult and dangerous position women such as this put men into.

This is a serious issue and innocent lives could be ruined by guilt-stricken women who decide they don't like what they've done the next morning. The law needs to be written by people with real-world experience who will understand that 'no' sometimes means 'I feel guilty about this but do it anyway'.

The real criteria is whether the woman is free to get up and walk away. (Of course, if she's been drugged, that's another matter, but let's keep those issues separate.)

They were telling you that you were doing it wrong.

[ddavidovsky]

So they can say no to you and if you don't believe them you are going for it any way ? I hope that you end up in prison where people like you belong.

So you didn't understand the context. That pretty much proves my point. Let's hope you go out and get some experience of life before being called for jury duty.

At 78 I will match experiences and understanding with you and day of the week "sonny"

Not on the current evidence. You are apparently a dangerous individual with little grasp of human behaviour who will happily wreck an innocent person's life on the basis of ill-judged faux outrage.

[ddavidovsky]

They were telling you that you were doing it wrong.

Perhaps I shouldn't have put on Stravinsky's Rite of Spring at the time...

Joking aside, I should have mentioned they were both Hong Kong Chinese. Maybe it is a cultural thing, but presumably there are Chinese in Germany too.

[Yukonwanderer]

@ddavidovsky what's so hard about stopping when someone says no during sex? Did it kill you both when you went back to your bed the first time? Did the sky fall? No. She clarified her wishes and you got it on and by your account it seemed to go pretty well. What's the problem? If someone says no and they actually mean yes then stopping during the act will actually teach them that they should be using other tactics, language, and communication. For the life of me I don't see how this is such a big complicated thing. If someone says no and you feel like you can interpret that however you wish - despite the fact that you've had previous experience with other women - it's a dangerous thing. Everyone is different. It's not a big deal to stop and get clarity - a simple "hey do you actually want me to stop?". You're being a drama queen.

[ddavidovsky]

@ddavidovsky what's so hard about stopping when someone says no during sex? Did it kill you both when you went back to your bed the first time? Did the sky fall? No. She clarified her wishes and you got it on and by your account it seemed to go pretty well. What's the problem? If someone says no and they actually mean yes then stopping during the act will actually teach them that they should be using other tactics, language, and communication. For the life of me I don't see how this is such a big complicated thing. If someone says no and you feel like you can interpret that however you wish - despite the fact that you've had previous experience with other women - it's a dangerous thing. Everyone is different. It's not a big deal to stop and get clarity - a simple "hey do you actually want me to stop?". You're being a drama queen.

Just to add another real life case study: there was another occasion when a girl stopped over at my place (it was in Singapore, but she was from mainland China) saying at the beginning of the evening "no sex, okay?" Well, I'm sure most guys would take that with a pinch of salt, but I'm an easy-going chap so I took her literally, assuming that mainly she just wanted some company. The next day it was clear that she was deeply offended - she froze me out and wouldn't go out with me again. And there you have it. What women say and what they mean are quite different things. I hope that answers your question.

One has to use subtle judgement in navigating human nature, of course. I just fear that the law - not being there in the room at the time - is incapable of understanding the subtleties.

[Steely Dan]

Some questions, why now? Has rape always been a problematic gray area in Germany, or has a problem arisen recently? If so why?

[GuestHouse]

For a significant number of TVF members 'No means they haven't yet agreed the price'.

Not then a bunch of people we should ask to have any meaningful input to rape laws.

[manarak]

Ridiculous and dangerous legislation. Fact is some women do say no without meaning it - presumably to assuage their feelings of guilt when doing it with someone new the first time.

Real life example 1:

I was in hotel room with a girl (mid-20s). It was her room (she was on business) and she invited me. We'd met several times before on platonic dates. There were two single beds. After some intimacy we both got in one of the beds and she was in pole position, but as the moment approached she started moaning 'no... no... no'. This bothered me a lot so I said okay then and went to other bed, determined to give up and go to sleep. Stony silence ensued but before long she started cajoling and made it clear she wanted me back. So I went back to her bed and discovered how much she really wanted it.

Real life example 2.

With a different girl I met in on an internet chat room (the only time that ever happened, btw). After a drink in the local pub she was clearly up for it and agreed to stay over at my place which had obviously been her intention all along. After some canoodling we were in bed, lights out, and then the same moaning started: 'no... no... no... no...' I didn't like that at all, but I figured by now that this was just part of the routine for some women. I deliberated with myself and decided she was perfectly free to get up and walk out, or at least get off the bed - there was no physical coercion and she wasn't drunk. So I carried on, and on penetration - I kid you not - she said 'suck my tits'. It was exactly like that: "no...no...no...no...suck my tits' without pause. I burst out laughing, but not without reflecting what a difficult and dangerous position women such as this put men into.

This is a serious issue and innocent lives could be ruined by guilt-stricken women who decide they don't like what they've done the next morning. The law needs to be written by people with real-world experience who will understand that 'no' sometimes means 'I feel guilty about this but do it anyway'.

The real criteria is whether the woman is free to get up and walk away. (Of course, if she's been drugged, that's another matter, but let's keep those issues separate.)

It's time for western men to insist on the woman signing a consent form before having sex. Even better, leave them alone and take a trip to LOS. Then they'll be complaining because no suckers men will be buying them drinks and free dinners.

Anyway, those Japanese inventors can't be far off the realistic sex android, and then few women will be getting laid anymore.

well, if the gynoid does want a no strings attached one night stand, it would then be a completely unrealistic sex droid...