Foreign Husbands Bring Big Changes To Isaan

[jimmorriosn]

Sad - I preferred it the way it was.

Well although somtam with fermented fish is one of the most disgusting things I have ever eaten it is a shame that poeple who do like it are switching to the western diet which is undeniably better tasting but in gereral a nutritonal nightmare. How many kfcs in the world have ever shut down? Over the next twenty years you will see increasing health problems in thailand as thias adopt a western diet, or thier version of it. Its gonna be just like the trailor park here with people sitting around watching tv and eating a diet high in "bad" fats and high sugar and refined carbohydartes. I have been a regular at various health clubs since i came here and can tell you that when thais do excercise it is a joke, very little effort put into the work out(80% that is)- and those are the ones that show up. excercise and work in gereral is something which is mai sabi and that is to avoided at all costs. I do like the part about about how westerens in Issan go up there and thier wives"take care of them". Nothing could be more opposite from the truth. Every westerner married to a thai woman and living in Issan is supporting a number of people.

[ray23]

I beleive tht succesful bleded marriages result in blenede homes, taking the best fom each. I eat somtom for example but Thai Somtom not Lao Somtom I don't like the fish sauce.

I love going to Thai culutural events, my wife has seen that and done it has the Tee shirt, so she doesn'ttget nearly as excited about it as I do.

What I'm really curiuos about is, do any of you have the lifestyle described in this report?

Just for clarification I live in Udon which is a large Issan City, my lifestyle is not like that at all.

Edited November 18, 2006 by ray23

[pap]

Just a thought for the heck of it. I don't think it was the foreigners that married Thai people that brought Mickey Mouse, Hello Kitty, Winnie the Pooh, Warner Bros and that whole gang to the kingdom. Any more than they brought KFC, McDonalds, Pizza Hut, Starbucks, Subway etc. The problem with the Thai and their diet is all they know is Thai. In America deciding what kind of food to eat is a chore especially when deciding with a group of people. The Thai don't really have an interest in trying anything new...

Weeeell.... Thais are like Italians in this respect: If they don't like other food, you can't blame them too much. Thai food is definitely up there with the best food in the world. Seriously. I am originally from Austria, and Austrian food has a very high standing in my home country but I must say that both Italian in Italy and Thai in Thailand are better. I have also been to places where the local cuisine is just bad - Cuba comes to mind... but I disgress... all cuisines were not created equal, whatever the reason, and Thai is awesome. Even more so when you live in the country and discover the endless varieties...

I agree with everything else you said, if Thais start eating more western food, let them. Buddhism teaches impermanence, the law of constant change - resisting or disbelieving impermanence is delusion and leads to suffering. This is true even for the Thai language, Thai culture, and food that Thais eat.

I agree with part of what you say. The Thais and the Italians have the best food on earth. The French aren't far behind.

Above the person says Thais aren't interested in trying new food. When yours is tops why bother?

America is not known for its food. And deciding to eat Thai or Italian in America is hardly the choice it is for a Thai or Italian to choose a different kind of food in their own country. Obviously its only my opinion but for me its a pretty easy call. Most food in America is not bad...it just can not compare with Thailand or Italy.....even in the big cities. The Thais have the best so they make a simple choice and eat Thai....well mostly.

[wolfmanjack]

So what Western 'delicacies' does your Issan wife enjoy?

Mine enjoys a roast dinner, mince and mash, fish and chips, Spaghetti bolognese, hot dogs with loads of fried onions and British breakfast (sausage, fried eggs, mushrooms, fried bread, baked beans etc).

What is annoying is she doesn't put any weight on at all.

She must be very brave as most of the things you mentioned even a foreigner,if not british,would not eat.

why??????

i am not british and the only thing on this list that we do not eat is mince and mash. Maybe we eat that to but since i do not know what it is i can't tell.

My wife likes spaghetti, pizza, hot dogs with onions, fish fried in batter, sausage, fried eggs etc.

[Martin]

There is a huge variety in the lifestyles of thai women and farang men living together.

As I said before, I tend to see three categories for starters.

First, there are inter-cultural relationships that haven't (maybe, yet) progressed beyond that.

Then there are cross-cultural marriages (which to me includes all pairings who are committed to living together in mutual support, whether they have formally registered a marriage or not).

And some of the latter have become such strong unions that I classify them as trans-cultural couples.

(I use the term 'couple' there in the physicists or engineers sense of the word of two forces that act to make things go round, and cannot be separated. Something along the lines of the words in some Christian wedding ceremonies that talk of "cleaving one to the other" and "eschew all others".)

This helps me to avoid the sort of generalisations, to which there are more exceptions than examples of the generalisation.

For instance, it was said in a slightly earlier post: "I do like the part about about how westerens in Issan go up there and thier wives"take care of them". Nothing could be more opposite from the truth. Every westerner married to a thai woman and living in Issan is supporting a number of people."

But I am a Westerner, married to a Thai woman, living in Isaan, whose wife takes care of me very well.

When somebody tells me that I am looking well, I often say:"Thank you. It is because I have a wife who looks after me very well."

And my wife tells her friends that she has a husband who looks after her very well.

I assume that 'supporting' in the above quote refers just to monthly income financial support.

But there are lots of other 'supports' that are necessary.

In our case, our financial income stream comes from my pensions, but the rice in our food income stream comes from the land that my wife had and was farming long before we were married.

And we live in, and eat fruit and vegetables from the garden of, the house that she had had built long before we met and married.

So our capital assets derive as much from what my wife brought to the marriage as I did, and maybe more.

But as well as support derived from financial income and capital, there is what I call "hotel services" support---all those things that are chores for either the housewife or the househusband.

And there is emotional support (but how the heck could anybody design a questionnaire for their students to take on the streets on that?).

Since academics and their students are so very limited in what they can ask about, and because marriages vary so much, it seems to me that the surveying of marriages is a very superficial and inexact bit of Social Science (that may subsequently be reported very partially by newspapers).

[Colonel_Mustard]

I don't know where they got 60k number, but probably not from the immigration office.

I would not doubt for a moment, these inteviewed folks could dig deep and pull out enough funds to send their child to a decent college, if compelled to do so.

It will be difficult to get into a decent college in the West with some Udon Annatoamaksoeoxvmervnarngardngvn Udom Suksa high school diploma. It will be hard to get into a decent Thai university for that matter. But to each his own, your money, your kids - who am I to judge? I can't afford ISB myself.

Kids that go to international schools should have enough English and a qualification that is recognized enough to get them into a college/university in the West.

If you can't afford to send your kids to an international school (which as you already pointed out most of the the subjects of this 'study' probably can't), then it's also highly unlikely that you'd be able to afford to send them to a college in the West anyway.

Anyway, from what I remember of university, it mainly consisted of sitting around in large groups on the floor, drinking cheap and nasty beer, lsitening to bad music and thinking it's good, living in squalid housing and getting into loads of debt. That's surely something that being raised in Thailand should prepare them perfectly for.

Edited November 18, 2006 by Colonel_Mustard

[Colonel_Mustard]

So what Western 'delicacies' does your Issan wife enjoy?

Mine enjoys a roast dinner, mince and mash, fish and chips, Spaghetti bolognese, hot dogs with loads of fried onions and British breakfast (sausage, fried eggs, mushrooms, fried bread, baked beans etc).

What is annoying is she doesn't put any weight on at all.

She must be very brave as most of the things you mentioned even a foreigner,if not british,would not eat.

why??????

i am not british and the only thing on this list that we do not eat is mince and mash. Maybe we eat that to but since i do not know what it is i can't tell.

My wife likes spaghetti, pizza, hot dogs with onions, fish fried in batter, sausage, fried eggs etc.

Minced beef and mashed potato I believe.

[Nemo.]

Looks like....

"Hang the bloody farang scum - drive the evil ones from our lands and women" bullshite to me. Lived in Isaan AND its somtam all the way..........

Isaan women (respectable ones NOT bargirls) do say "Isaan men very selfish they drink and womanise all the time". Last Head of department said she wanted her teachers and daughter to marry farangs for that reason!

[Unknown]

Big changes, sure.

Nothing cultural, just more money.

And if there is any 'cultural' change, it is that, these days, most Isaan girls want to marry a foreigner.

Not a critic, just a fact.

[Martin]

'Nemo' says: "Isaan women (respectable ones NOT bargirls) do say "Isaan men very selfish they drink and womanise all the time". Last Head of Department said...."

That just shows that overgeneralisation is widespread.

I haven't put together a questionnaire which some students could take out on the streets, conduct interviews, analyse the results, and prove in part "to the satisfaction of the Examiners" that they have mastered the arts of the Social Sciences.

But I would bet money that if I did, the results would show that the words "A proportion of" should precede the word "Isaan" in the statement.

I would expect to collect on the bet, since that is my experience from the limited and skewed sample of Isaan men that I know. In the whole bunch, I can identify a handful that do not drink and, I am pretty sure, do not womanise.

However, the more interesting question than putting figures to "bunch" and "handful" is "WHY?".

Could it be that a proportion of Isaan mothers spoil their sons rotten?

I hope the Head of Department quoted was bringing up her son to do his share of the washing up, and so forth.

What would be interesting, would be to see the results of a carefully-designed (representative samples, and so forth) aimed at elucidating the prevalence of the view of the above Head of Department, and the prevalence of the view that "There should be a law against farangs being allowed to come here and elevate unschooled Isaan farm women above their proper station in life".

My completely unscientific gut feeling is that there is some of the latter feeling about. And I surmise that it is a manifestation of what is called "the clash of civilisations" between Liberal Democracy and Traditional Hierarchy.

Although I wouldn't agree with the anti-farang view, I think that I can understand why it occurs.

My thinking goes like this: If, deep down, a middle-class woman knows that her elevated position in the hierarchy is more due to the accident of birth that caused her to be born into a family that could afford to have her schooled than to her intrinsic ability, then she will also, subconsciously, fear those Isaan farm women. The thought that "That group are as bright as we are, and there is more of them than there are of us" always generates fear amongst the fearful---though optimists would be more likely to add "And isn't that good. If we and them unite, we'll all be better off".

The exponents of liberal democracy shouldn't underestimate the prevalence of the predisposition to view Traditional Hierarchy as the right and proper way to order Society. As a youngster in Industrial England, I was taught to sing the hymn 'All things bright and beautiful', and it had in it a verse which went:

"The rich man in his castle,

The poor man at his gate,

God made them high and lowly,

And ordered their estate".

There was a right cock-up once, though, at a very big funeral service at our Methodist Church, which had (before the merger) been a Wesleyan Methodist Church. Because there wouldn't be enough hymn books for the huge congregation that was expected, one of the stewards had borrowed some hymn books from the church up the road, which had been a Primitive Methodist Church. After all, the choice would be popular hymns that would be in both books.

But when we sang 'All Things Bright And Beautiful', things didn't go beautifully at all. The Prims version of the hymn didn't have that verse in it! So it ended up with people realising they weren't singing what their neighbours were singing, and more and more stopping singing.

I asked my Dad about it after, and he explained that the Wesleyans had been "middle-class bosses and foremen" and the Prims had been "working class". So the Prims had never let that verse be included in their hymn book!

The "clash of civilisations" was still going on not that long ago within our Western societies.

I won't go into the topic raised by the words "respectable ones NOT bargirls", except to say that we once had a long thread on here about bargirls, and one contributor said that he had a lot respect for the widow or abandoned wife who had the guts to go and be a sex-worker so she could send money to her parents and they could send the kids to school.

[Farang007]

Western culture = Fast food.

LOL

[Neeranam]

Every westerner married to a thai woman and living in Issan is supporting a number of people.

I'm a Westerner in Issarn and only look after my wife and daughter financially, if that's what you mean. I don't have a pick-up and would never dream of taking more than 2 Thais to Tesco Lotus with me, unless it was the mother in law, who is loaded and sometimes offers to pay.

Edited November 18, 2006 by Neeranam

[sting01]

Not a study but a mere nationalist and racism Bullshit.

Worst, I do believe it was written in the only purpose to keep the rural mass poor and uneducated; well how dare are those issaan gilrs to marry a farang , have kids and finally to start to think like them?????????????? A good issan girl (according to the study writer, not I ) have to stay poor, not educated, and as weel married only with thai to breed more slaves (oooooooooooops I mean to breed more issan kids)

[Bruce1]

There does seem to be a big gap between the "official" view of educated Thais towards foreigners and the "ordinary" people's view.

The "official" view is paranoid about loss of autonomy and devaluing of Thai culture. That's fine and I certainly think Thailand should value its culture and keep control of its national direction. But the way they try to do that - such as the silly 49% land ownership rule - is a ridiculous illusion, since it ignores the real issue, which is that the important thing is not who owns what, but if the laws of this country are actually enforced. If Thai officials are corrupt, then it makes no difference if the laws are good.

Officials also frown on the mixed marriage thing, and I suspect that is a male Thai reaction to the view of many Thai women that foreigners make better husbands than Thai men. Interestingly, the reasons my Thai female friends give for their holding this view is not because the foreigner might be richer, but because they believe the foreigner might be more faithful to them (less likely to have a second wife) and more willing to support their children and families, particularly when the parents are older. So I think the survey's conclusion that money was the prime motivator for Thai women marrying foreigners might ignore other issues. After all, there are plenty of rich Thai men who appear to be lousy husbands.

The influence of the sort of foreign men who would marry a a Thai woman and settle in an isolated rural village would, I imagine, be quite different to the stereotypical "sex tourist" who just wants a quick porking session. To marry and settle requires a willingness to invest in a long term relationship, which is a good thing and should be welcomed.

Many Thais have not had the chance to travel and have broader experiences, so a farang marriage would be a good thing for themselves and their families.

As for food, we eat mainly Thai cause we prefer it and western food makes us feel fat afterwards. We have one educated Thai female friend who absolutely hates Thai food, particularly rice, and eats western all the time, but she's probably unusual.

Bilingual children will definitely grow up with an advantage in the future, with employers increasingly wanting their staffs to be able to operate internationally. The people I know with children who have grown up speaking both Thai and English seem to have benefitted and to be doing well at school.

The survey was interesting but I'd like to see the questions. I bet it could have been improved if extra questions had been added, such as more exploration of peoles' motives for entering mixed-culture marriages.

[Martin]

"The survey was interesting but I'd like to see the questions. I bet it could have been improved if extra questions had been added, such as more exploration of peoles' motives for entering mixed-culture marriages."

I haven't yet had the opportunity to go deeper into this, but will post when I have done so.

But, since it was the wives being interviewed, I fear that the questionnaire will be in Thai, and then we will need some expert translator in order to judge them.

I agree that it would be interesting to see the results of deeper research into mixed-culture marriage. In fact, in my view, it is necessary, as mixed-culture marriages are getting more and more prevalent.

However, don't hold your breath. Such research isn't easy, and doesn't lend itself to being done in fragments which are small enough to fit in with the Higher Education Industry's requirements in its present phase of being a provider of facilities for young students to get a degree that will lead to a job.

I have faith in the 'baby boom' retirees, though.

Worldwide, but especially in America, there are quite a lot of us from the previous generation (born 1920 to 1945, and known as the Silent Generation) who are 'going back to college' in our retirements.

As far as I have been able to ascertain, most Silent Generation retiree students are happy to sit and listen or do the other sort of things that young undergraduates are given to do. (Not me, though)

I think the baby-boomers will be a lot more 'pushy', and some will want more than 'edutainment', and so get their teeth into this sort of research.

[economypack]

I have been living in a foreign country for almost 10 years with my farang husband. I love living here because there is more freedom than in Thailand in many ways e.g freedom of speech, freedom of how you dress up, freedom of educations etc...

However, Thailand is still my home and Thai food is still my favourite dish but I wouldn't say that farang food is unhealthy. When you mention ' Farang Food ' , people tend to think McDonald, chips and Chocolate which are not always the case. There are also healthy farang food that you can find around the home but a lot of people don't tend to recognise and prefer quick and easy food instead !

By the way, FOOD DOESN'T WALK INTO YOURMOUTH, you are the one who put it in

In conclusion, the world has changed NOT just Thailand. In some countries, the government is campaigning about how to save the natural resources by minimising the amount of what we use and how we use, for example, use a bucket to water your plants in stead of a hose, (don't flush the toilet, too -- hahahaha ! ) etc... Thailand was once like that -- in my village we used to use the Thunder box, we had a shower from the bucket but now Thailand has become like western countries

Speaking many languages doesn't confuse children

Food dislike or like, choosing a husband or where to live is a personal thing as long as you keep smiling

[Egon]

There is another article on this subject here

[fruity]

Another load of s##t put about so as to draw spouses from their web!......SIMPLE as this...the one speaking,having resided in the Northern latitude of this wonderful Kingdom for in excess of 11 years: /Southern/ E. SB....5..... My former professional life being otherwise engaged in the belief of the UK / Eastern thinking legal system...........shit!!!!!

Life is thus; What YOU can make it!.......Materialism is <deleted>!......P.S. I have over 2 Million Quid in the UK; .....WITHOUT INTERRUPTION........lol......Over 4 years ago,alas, in my quest / which was devoted to Natural-Justiuce.........; ....something; in my long career ,I hadn't been aprenticeted to......Shall I ellaborate?...........

????..........................................In this & every case, all I ask;in the name of my father, the Lord, the Christ, the Buddha, the Allah, the Mohamed, the Jehova................Please O'h Lord, tell me the wY, PLEASE SHOW ME THE RIGHTOUS WAY.......aN oN...............

[Naam]

"Shall I ellaborate?..........."

*****

sure! but learn some basic english spelling and grammar first. even though i'm a bloody german yours is not only hurting my eyes but makes my intestines cramp.

[unbiasbob]

I've never been to Issan but it seemed to me based on what I do know that the article was loaded with BS, esp. the bit about the food.

[toptuan]

Every westerner married to a thai woman and living in Issan is supporting a number of people.

I'm a Westerner in Issarn and only look after my wife and daughter financially, if that's what you mean. I don't have a pick-up and would never dream of taking more than 2 Thais to Tesco Lotus with me, unless it was the mother in law, who is loaded and sometimes offers to pay.

Congratulations. You are one of the very few who have successfully shaken off the rest of the clan. It normally does not work that way here.

[102r]

Sorry to be so not ''understanding"....

We eat what we are, so do not blame any one changing their culture to the west. Goverment is doing that on TV every day. I personally love my wife going to "another side" eating - that is when we are alone out without our toddler at 18 months...

Can eat burger, can eat you name it - as long as it tastes good RIGHT?

it is true you can't really blame them just because they are ''influenced'' by what their husbands eat,

but you can blame them if they forget about their whooole traditions and religious beliefs because that is more than a passport...a french proverb says in fact : si tu sais d'ou tu viens,tu sais ou tu va.

if you know where you're coming from you''ll know where you're going.

Edited November 24, 2006 by 102r

[baennaenae]

Heeeeeeeeeehaaaaaaaaaaa !

[Martin]

"if you know where you're coming from you''ll know where you're going."

Sometime, somewhere, and I forget when and where, I came upon a saying:

" People who know not their past, can have no future"

which expresses the same thought.

The whole subject of what happens when a person 'immerses' her/himself in a culture that is not her/his childhood culture fascinates me. That is why, for my MA Dissertation, I proposed the topic of "Possible future impacts of Thai wives who retire to their girlhood villages after many years of living in a westernised country".

My theory is that these will be women of high competence, otherwise they wouldn't have the self-confidence to feel they and their husbands could make successful retirement lives in the village, and that a lot will follow therefrom.

[baennaenae]

Do you guys know what made those Thai women become more confident if not $$$$$ ?

Forget about the Farang Husbands because they don't give a rat A.. if your pocket is not big enough !!!!

Sometimes I feel sorry for the fools but a lot of times I think well....

[Thaddeus]

My theory is that these will be women of high competence, otherwise they wouldn't have the self-confidence to feel they and their husbands could make successful retirement lives in the village, and that a lot will follow therefrom.

Well said Martin, but the ones that haven't experienced it, won't understand it.

[white guy]

were breeding the next generation of little thai girls with black girl's butts . muha ha

[cutter007]

So what Western 'delicacies' does your Issan wife enjoy?

Mine enjoys a roast dinner, mince and mash, fish and chips, Spaghetti bolognese, hot dogs with loads of fried onions and British breakfast (sausage, fried eggs, mushrooms, fried bread, baked beans etc).

What is annoying is she doesn't put any weight on at all.

It's annoying to you that your wife doesn't get fat???????????

[Far Angst]

I am acquainted with the lady Associate Professor who headed up this research. First, I will ask her if this report is a fair reflection in English of her publication that was written in Thai. Only then will I make any judgement about the biases that appear to be revealed.

I'm looking forward to hearing more about this from the researcher herself from the,,,, Faculty of Nursing, was it?

Don't read anything into "Faculty of Nursing".

I seem to remember that, the first time that I met her, she told me she was a Mathemetician.

Her PhD Dissertation Proposal puts forward a plan for a study to lead to a PhD in Development Science.

The study was to be entitled: "Dynamic Systems Modelling for Sustainablity of Development Programs: The case of Thailand's Family Planning Program".

That is quite esoteric mathematics impacting on a Social Science topic.

Medical faculties often have mathematicians (particularly statisticians) in them nowadays.

My gut feeling is that I shall find that the articles in the newspapers that we are discussing are travesties of what is written in the Research Report.

It is always desirable to remember that the job of an Editor and staff of a newspaper is to produce an issue that sells; and that people don't buy fair, balanced, but boring, stuff. Those who buy a newspaper want some bang for their buck, and so that is what is 'found' by the journalists.

But, as I said, I am going to be a boring old fuddy-dud on this, who suspends his judgement till he has looked into it a bit deeper.

Then I intend to post here what I find out, and I will send you a PM, 'Far Angst'.

I take it that you so far haven't met the researcher yet, 'Martin', to look into this a bit deeper, eh?

So sorry to hear that, as the "research" reported now seems to be destined to remain just another quasi-scientific, unprofessional, mumbo-jumbo collection of prejudices, preconceptions and malicious opinions only.

Then again, TIT!

[coldcrush]

Jai yen yen...... my Son is happy...here nor there! Fat??? Who cares...wake up people dont eat?

Edited December 17, 2006 by lopburiguy