Beijing refuses to accept Hague ruling over South China Sea territorial claims

[Publicus]

Any military clash in the SCS would be incidental rather than orchestrated. It would be limited to occurring on the Sea, under it, or over it. It would involve two planes, or two ships and it would involve very few military and/or civilian personnel.

A military clash would not occur on CCP mainland nor would there be a military attack or operation against Hainan island which is sovereign CCP territory, a province in fact.

Nobody's going to invade anyone, no one is going to carpet bomb anyone, nor is anyone going to do sink anyone's maritime shipping.

It is known by PLA statements the PLA Air Force would like to shoot down an Australian P-3 Orion air force recon plane that regularly flies missions over the SCS (from Malaysia). Having the gnads and no brains to do any such thing would be another matter entirely.

The G-20 will meet in CCP in September and Xi Jinping wants a quiet smooth and polite meeting set in a dormant regional environment and atmosphere. President Obama will be there so let's see whether there might be a high noon moment or possibly a 4 o'clock tea...or neither. In short, let's find out whether Xi is looking for a face-saving way out or whether he'd rather just hang it all out over the SCS.

Asean foreign ministers meet in Laos July 21-26 to include SecState Kerry and CCP FM Wang Yi where indoor fireworks are expected. So everyone should reasonably expect a quiet week ahead until beginning July 21st in Laos. After that we'll know more, probably see more in the leadup to the September G-20 meeting in Hangzhou on the East Sea.

Presently no one of Asean or from Washington it putting salt to CCP's self-inflicted gashing wound. It is the Asean/Asian way and it is wise policy in Washington. After all of the anti-UNCLOS hollering CCP have done the past few months, let 'em sit down in Beijing and take some stock.

Edited July 14, 2016 by Publicus

[boomerangutang]

I agree with most of P's missive above, except if there's combat, Hainan (which will likely have bases for fighter craft) may be on the radar.

If a confrontation is sparked, I predict it will happen when either shipping or over-flights are tangibly challenged by Chinese. When I say 'tangibly' I mean more than a voice over an intercom. If Chinese ships go out to intercept a vessel and/or Chinese plane does same to merchant ships or planes ....then sparks could fly.

Hopefully, it will be not much more than US naval vessels showing up on the doorsteps of the disputed islands, and occupiers vacate without any shots fired. They may also evacuate into their shorts, but that's another story.

[Publicus]

The next move is Beijing's to make or to not make.

If CCP stops, things can get settled down and people can begin to talk free of coercion (nothing about haggling a cease-fire for instance when no one is shooting).

If CCP declares and ADIZ in part or in whole, Mars will ascend.

[boomerangutang]

The next move is Beijing's to make or to not make.

If CCP stops, things can get settled down and people can begin to talk free of coercion (nothing about haggling a cease-fire for instance when no one is shooting).

If CCP declares and ADIZ in part or in whole, Mars will ascend.

CCP needs to do more than stop (its territory grabs). It needs to pack up and go back to China. Anything less will exacerbate tensions and likely lead to military action. China has the power to ease the problem or exacerbate it. It's up to a few cloistered old men hiding in a barricaded room in Beijing. ....between sips of tiger penis tea.

[boomerangutang]

Another way to look at the on-going problem. ....this time from a farang who knows a lot about China... .. . . .

[ilostmypassword]

Where is all this going?

Obviously military confrontation down the road. Question is, who's going to back down first? We all know what happens when nobody backs down.

Nobody is going to attack anybody else. The US doesn't need to. There are far too many internal social and economic problems in China for the Chinese to deal with. If the Chinese tried to attack another country in sufficient mass, it would crumble at home. And the US only need sit and watch, if it comes to that. Probably, the US is more worried about internal Chinese instability than Chinese expansion.

Unlike the West, China prints their own money and owes interest on their freshly minted money to no one but themselves. That leads me to believe they have all the money in the world to start something without too much worry about it. Of course I hope it never happens, but when ego's flare, you just never know where it leads to. Hopefully our economies are intertwined enough that it leads to nothing, but history always seems to repeat itself.

You do realize that you're comparing a lots of countries i.e. the West, to one country China. So who is printing the West's money? Is someone printing money for the USA?

[Publicus]

If CCP and the Philippines enter into bilateral negotiations they would not change the trajectory of events in the SCS. It is dubious at best the Phils can get a fair deal out of the CCP. Even if the new Phils president Trump Duterte settles for development projects in return for contravening or simply ignoring the PCA ruling -- if Duterte might do this -- nothing would change in respect of the other Asean claimants or concerning Asean and the region as a whole, i.e., from Japan to Australia to India.

Washington will continue in its long standing and universal position on the UNCLOS and the SCS, which is that SCS is an international waterway which has international air space over it, and that each the water and the air have freedom of navigation as provided by UNCLOS.

However, the day after the ruling by PCA, the CCP restated the claim PCA denied, that China is an archipelagic nation. PCA had ruled that which might seem obvious on the face of it, which is that China is a continental nation, not a maritime or archipelagic nation. Archipelago nations are, for instance, the Phils, Indonesia, among some others. China is not an archipelagic nation.

CCP has used the bogus argument China is an archipelagic country so it can claim the Spratlys which are in the southernmost SCS, 620 miles from Hainan Island. PCA ruled however the Spratlys are rocks and reefs, not islands. Which means not any one of the rocks, nor do all of the rocks taken as the whole of the Spratlys, have a 3-mile zone, don't have a 12-mile zone, don't have another 12 miles of a contiguous zone, and certainly not an additional 200 nm EEZ.

CCP says its two artificial structures built in the Spratlys, on Fiery Cross Reef and at Mischief Reef are islands and thus merit a 200 nm EEZ. CCP continues to say this even though PCA said not. Moreover, CCP maintain they can now declare a 200 nm EEZ from the Spratlys themselves, the whole of the archipelago of rocks, reefs and all else.

CCP establishing a 200 nm EEZ from the Spratlys as a group that sprawls across the south of the SCS would mean CCP would assign to itself sovereign control of the entire southern half of the SCS. That would include the half of SCS from near Singapore and the Strait of Malacca, Malaysia, Vietnam, Brunei. the Phils southern islands. CCP could demand permission to transit on this mass of sea area or in the air of anyone and everyone.

Washington among other states of the region would not accept this eventuality should it come to pass and would surely express themselves by means of navies and air forces.

[F430murci]

Where is all this going?

Obviously military confrontation down the road. Question is, who's going to back down first? We all know what happens when nobody backs down.

They know Obama will always back down. Obama screwed himself by talking so much bs that he eventually got called on somethings and he did nothing. Now, no one bats an eye at anything he says. Clinton, not so sure about her ability to convey strength, but Purin will have no respect for her either.

[Publicus]

Where is all this going?

Obviously military confrontation down the road. Question is, who's going to back down first? We all know what happens when nobody backs down.

They know Obama will always back down. Obama screwed himself by talking so much bs that he eventually got called on somethings and he did nothing. Now, no one bats an eye at anything he says. Clinton, not so sure about her ability to convey strength, but Purin will have no respect for her either.

Pretty simple world isn't it.

Many Democratic party hawks wanted Ashton Carter to succeed Bob Gates so it took a while longer to get Carter the hawk into the position he was made for, Secretary of Defense. Carter has served with or formally advised 11 secretaries of defense and knows the Pentagon and national security better than 99% of anybody.

SecDef Carter is the new sheriff in town. The Bystander merely signs off on Carter's decisions and orders and in this matter of the SCS, The Bystander is there to pass it on to Xi Jinping. Xi has now begun to realise this. So yes, Xi and Co. had thought they could and would walk right in and take over the SCS in no time and without resistance or opposition. It hasn't turned out that way.

The CCP Boyz in Beijing didn't know Ashton Carter either so you're keeping the same company. They still think US won't pull the trigger over the SCS. Glib approaches to the SCS challenge only increases the already great risk all around and for everyone.

[Publicus]

The only countries at the Asia-Europe Meeting of 2016 in Mongolia to express support of CCP in the SCS were Russia, Laos, Cambodia. Others, to include Vietnam simply endorsed the UNCLOS and the Tribunal rulings while advocating peaceful and negotiated settlements, no war.

That's it.

Yet here's the continued delusionary story from Beijing...

Premier Li wins backing over South China Sea at ASEM Summit

The Chinese premier's statements have been keenly received and won the backing from a number of Asian and European heavyweight leaders.

According to the anonymous Chinese diplomat, a vast number of countries "expressed understanding of China's stance in difference forms" and "accepted our stance on dispute settlement via dialogue and consultation."

"On the one hand, more and more countries have come to understand China's standpoints via extensive exchanges with the Chinese side," he said.

http://www.china.org.cn/world/2016-07/17/content_38899377_2.htm

The only governments to make public statements are the three I've identified. No other countries said anything in public. The world is instead giving CCP time to lick its deep and self-inflicted wounds to come back another day with a fresh outlook. Maybe. Hopefully a new outlook.

CCP had claimed before the PCA ruling on July 12th that 40 countries had announced their support of CCP against the UNCLOS. Turned out eight countries had stated support to CCP, to include Zimbabwe and Russia, while 40 governments had publicly in advance stated their support of the PCA Tribunal prior to the ruling.

CCP...it's China against the world...China's right, the world is wrong...Some things never change...

[tonbridgebrit]

Washington, do please shut up, and stop making yourself look ridiculous and absurd.

Beijing has thrown this ruling into the bin. And YOU carry on with this macho display of sailing your ships near those Chinese islands. Stop this BS.


Look, we all know, IF you really did reckon that China is a threat to world peace, well, you would slap some serious taxes on the cheap Chinese goods entering America. This would cause a collapse in the Chinese economy, and the Beijing government would be booted out in about five months.

You carry on importing the Chinese goods, and continue this drivel and BS of pretending that China is a threat to Asia and the world.


Washington, shut up.

Go and try and sort out some real problems instead.

[craigt3365]

Washington, do please shut up, and stop making yourself look ridiculous and absurd.

Beijing has thrown this ruling into the bin. And YOU carry on with this macho display of sailing your ships near those Chinese islands. Stop this BS.

Look, we all know, IF you really did reckon that China is a threat to world peace, well, you would slap some serious taxes on the cheap Chinese goods entering America. This would cause a collapse in the Chinese economy, and the Beijing government would be booted out in about five months.

You carry on importing the Chinese goods, and continue this drivel and BS of pretending that China is a threat to Asia and the world.

Washington, shut up.

Go and try and sort out some real problems instead.

I think you are missing the point this was brought up by the Philippines and ruled on by 5 judges NOT from the US. It's an international issue. And we live in a global society.

Maybe China should also stop their macho display? Seems they are doing much, much more of it than any other country. The word would be better off if they stopped.

[Publicus]

This is going to be a tough one for CCP Klutzes in Beijing to extract themselves from. Which is why one can reasonably expect developments will not occur without some pains and penalties.

Sounds as silly as "Freedom Fries"...maybe more so...

Dried mango has become an unlikely symbol of Chinese nationalism

BY ANDI WANG July 16, 2016

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/chinese-mock-south-china-sea-ruling-memes-boycott/

People watch a TV news broadcast about the

South China Sea outside a shopping mall in

Beijing, July 16, 2016. Photo by Thomas

Peter/Reuters

A tweet says: “Start boycotting mangoes from the Philippines in online Taobao shop. The South China Sea is Chinese territory. China is not going to give you even a drop of water.”

Chinese online vendors have also rallied around dried mango as an unlikely symbol of nationalism. After the ruling, a number of online shops selling dried mango changed their advertising from “made in Philippines” to “made in China.”

Many vendors put up posters that read, “We have stopped selling Filipino mangoes.” Some even renamed their products as “Patriotic dried mangoes.” But buyers said online that some packages still say “product of Philippines,” leaving angry reviews.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/chinese-mock-south-china-sea-ruling-memes-boycott/

The Chinese government has also contributed to online discussions of the South China Sea ruling, mainly with graphics and animations that promote patriotic rhetoric.

On Sina Weibo, a Chinese social media platform, China’s state newspaper People’s Daily published a map of China with the nine-dash line accompanied by the slogan “China cannot lose a single bit.” The image has been retweeted more than 2.9 million times. The map can be seen above in a tweet.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2016-07/16/c_135518340.htm

View image on Twitter

Edited July 17, 2016 by Publicus

[Publicus]

Where is all this going?

Obviously military confrontation down the road. Question is, who's going to back down first? We all know what happens when nobody backs down.

Nobody is going to attack anybody else. The US doesn't need to. There are far too many internal social and economic problems in China for the Chinese to deal with. If the Chinese tried to attack another country in sufficient mass, it would crumble at home. And the US only need sit and watch, if it comes to that. Probably, the US is more worried about internal Chinese instability than Chinese expansion.

Unlike the West, China prints their own money and owes interest on their freshly minted money to no one but themselves. That leads me to believe they have all the money in the world to start something without too much worry about it. Of course I hope it never happens, but when ego's flare, you just never know where it leads to. Hopefully our economies are intertwined enough that it leads to nothing, but history always seems to repeat itself.

It's called the Parker Brothers school of economics and financial game theory. You game play it out on a board which is full of state owned monopolies. And you use the monopoly game money.

It's been extremely popular in the CCP China since Deng Xiaoping, who, while he said it is good to get rich, also said that some must get rich first...namely the CCP elites that have a monopoly on the state owned and run system from top to bottom to include the currency.

It's always been monopoly money over there. If PLA and its Navy and its Air Force want to fight over the SCS they're going to have to pay with real money to get the tools and implements of war. And the more they spend of their forex reserves the more worthless their currency the yuan/rmb becomes.

That's when the gamers have to quit cause the board gets folded on 'em.

[boomerangutang]

Where is all this going?

Obviously military confrontation down the road. Question is, who's going to back down first? We all know what happens when nobody backs down.

They know Obama will always back down. Obama screwed himself by talking so much bs that he eventually got called on somethings and he did nothing. Now, no one bats an eye at anything he says. Clinton, not so sure about her ability to convey strength, but Purin will have no respect for her either.

For some people, Obama can do no right. He's damned if he does, and damned if he don't. If you ask me, I think Obama has done a pretty good job of international issues. He consults with military/diplomatic and other experts. That's different than Trump, who takes 12 seconds to consider an issue and then makes a blanket vague statement and makes it sound like it's carved in marble. No matter (to his fans) that the next day or following week he contradicts himself 180 degrees.

Chinese don't know who they dislike more: Trump or Clinton. Trump is impulsive, but down deep he's a bluffing oaf - all smoke and no fire. All bluster and no resolve.

Clinton, on the other hand, is informed, intelligent, and will do what she resolves to do.

That's why the Chinese should hope for Trump as president. Because, though he sounds like he's tough, he's not. Trump, like the Chinese, worships money over all else, so Trump won't won't want to disrupt anything in the SCS. In contrast, HRC has principles and cares/knows about what's right and wrong. Plus, Clinton wouldn't abandoned our Fil friends as Trump would.

[craigt3365]

Gotta love this. Bananna diplomacy! LOL

http://world.time.com/2012/05/10/a-chinese-tv-anchor-claims-china-owns-the-philippines-as-spat-heats-up-the-south-china-sea/

Once could have been attributed to a slip of the tongue. But twice? On May 7, an anchor for China’s state-run TV network CCTV, who was chatting with a colleague on the late evening news, remarked: “We all know that the Philippines is China’s inherent territory, and the Philippines belongs to Chinese sovereignty. This is an indisputable fact.” The unfortunate news clip, which has since been removed from CCTV’s website, was part of a report on a monthlong standoff between China and the Philippines over a remote shoal in the South China Sea, which both nations claim as their own.

[craigt3365]

http://philippineslifestyle.com/blog/2016/03/26/china-destroys-35-tons-philippine-bananas/

[Publicus]

CCP Dictators in Beijing had figured that this being an election year in the US the Boyz could run freely throughout the SCS, however, it is the Boyz in Beijing who are on the back foot due to the PCA ruling from The Hague.

CCP are not going to ease up in their opposition to UNCLOS being applied in the SCS (and over it). The Boyz are doubling down in Beijing's determination to shred the UNCLOS and Asean.

And now, after 17 years of CCP being disapproving of the Philippines and its negotiators, CCP Boyz want to try again, this time with a new president who rivals Donald Trump in intellect and style and who also has his hand open.

So for the other side over there, here is a good summary statement/complaint of US statecraft in the SCS to consider while the blue team are only just getting limbered up for both the marathon and for the dash....

For Japanese political analyst Jiro Honzawa, the arbitration is not about truth but about politics. "The Philippines was abetted by the U.S. and Japan to apply for arbitration, because the latter two want to contain China. The arbitration was a trap set up by Japan and the U.S.," he wrote on his blog.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2016-07/17/c_135519215.htm

If so, then it's going to be worth watching the CCP Boyz chew their foot off cause they stepped right into it and are ensnared but good.

For 20 years, and with all the CCP's grand planning and clever machinations for the SCS, the Boyz never once considered or prepared for a judicial intervention. The Boyz just got taken down by the PCA in The Hague. Rather, Dictators in Beijing simply signed UNCLOS in 1996 only to immediately put it aside to get on with their serious long term plans to take control of the SCS -- the whole of it (and the sky above it).

The risky thing about China is that they never have a Plan B. It's all one big garbled and hanging out smear of errors of omission and mistakes of judgement by the people who cannot make mistakes because, unlike the rest of humanity, their genes are not from out of Africa.

[Publicus]

Revanchism as a driving motive combined with vengeance as a principal purpose leads to no place that is good. CCP in their ideology of victimhood from history to the present bellicosity to make China great again gains nothing.

However, the reality is beyond the capability of dictators or dynasties to recognise or to realise. WW II was the last great lesson of the kind but there need not be another of one nor should anyone expect it. Some proper skirmishes will stand the bully down.

In the words of Salvatore Barbones who specialises in global economic structure at the University of Sydney...

China may spend billions of dollars to populate artificial islands in the middle of the ocean. But it won't change China's history, and it won't do much for China today.

China refutes the ruling of the Permanent Court of Arbitration and has vowed to ignore it. The world shouldn't pay much attention if it does. China will make no friends by changing itself from a historical victim into a contemporary bully.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2016/07/china-cares-south-china-sea-160714105126859.html

It remains as a civilisation that eternally careens from one extreme to another.

Edited July 17, 2016 by Publicus

[tonbridgebrit]

Washington, do please shut up, and stop making yourself look ridiculous and absurd.

Beijing has thrown this ruling into the bin. And YOU carry on with this macho display of sailing your ships near those Chinese islands. Stop this BS.

Look, we all know, IF you really did reckon that China is a threat to world peace, well, you would slap some serious taxes on the cheap Chinese goods entering America. This would cause a collapse in the Chinese economy, and the Beijing government would be booted out in about five months.

You carry on importing the Chinese goods, and continue this drivel and BS of pretending that China is a threat to Asia and the world.

Washington, shut up.

Go and try and sort out some real problems instead.

I think you are missing the point this was brought up by the Philippines and ruled on by 5 judges NOT from the US. It's an international issue. And we live in a global society.

Maybe China should also stop their macho display? Seems they are doing much, much more of it than any other country. The word would be better off if they stopped.

Hello craigt3365. Okay, if we look at the posts already put here, notice how absurd and inconsistent peoples' views are.

Yes, the USA can use just 2% of it's fire-power and this will knock out the vast bulk of China's navy and airforce. We all know that, including myself. I'm sure Washington's cheerleaders will agree with this. BUT, but you notice, some the same people who are saying this are also trying to say that China is a threat and danger to world peace ??

What does this actually mean ? Look, we all know China's navy and airforce is almost nothing, but people have still got to demonise China. Got to make it look like that China is dangerous.

So this is an international issue, with the Hague involved. The Hague is actually BS. The Hague has not bothered to make judgements on other issues, or it's judgements are simply ignored, and this has happened constantly throughot the world and during the decades after World War Two. A whole load of wars have been fought since World War Two, the Hague has stayed silent or had it's views ignored many times.

What about the Phillipines ? Okay, during the previous Philipino government, Phils was willing to fully co-operate with Washington. Washington wanted to get involved in this South China Sea thing, and Washington used Phils as an excuse to get involved. I think all of us accept that nothing is for free, and Washington's actions (on bahalf of anybody) are certainly not for free. So, Washington put on a macho display of ships and aircraft near the Chinese dots, saying it was being done on behalf of countries like the Phils.

Well, the Phils has now got a new leader. And this new leader, we can love him or not love him, but he is democratically elected, and has popular support. The new leader is highly conscious of the US-Philippines link during the previous decades, where the Phils had an almost puppet government, constantly saying "yes Sir" to Washington. The new leader is highly conscious of how Washington primarily wants to benefit it's ownself. The new leader is trying to get the best deal for the Phils, and indeed, China might offer a better deal than Washington.

Remember, what's happening in Thailand is also happening in the Phils. As in, the Phils is importing a mountain of manufactured goods from China, and this has to be paid for. The Phils tries to export whatever stuff, and is trying to attract the vast Chinese tourism market. Yes, Chinese tourists again. The Phils will hopefully rake in valuable tourist income. The last thing they want is Washington bombing whatever Chinese dots on behalf of the Phils.

[tonbridgebrit]

On Sina Weibo, a Chinese social media platform, China’s state newspaper People’s Daily published a map of China with the nine-dash line accompanied by the slogan “China cannot lose a single bit.” The image has been retweeted more than 2.9 million times. The map can be seen above in a tweet.

Yes, Publicus, you've put this map up again. The so-called nine-dash line, China's claim of the South China Sea is based on this.

Why don't you tell people about a few issues regarding this map ? Okay, you won't, I will.

The nine-dash line map first appeared BEFORE 1949, bearing in mind that the Peoples' Republic of China came into existence in 1949. The Peoples' Republic of China is today, main-land China. It was the Republic of China who came up with this map and made the claim before 1949, this was when Republic of China was mainland China. Republic of China lost the civil war and moved to Taiwan in 1949, and today, Republic of China calls itself Republic of China (Taiwan). So, the map (and claim) existed before the existence of the Peoples' Republic of China.

And today, Republic of China (Taiwan) still has an island, called Taiping Island, and it's the only real island (or one of a very few) in a vast area of the South China Sea.

Okay everybody, notice that Washington's cheerleaders say nothing about China's (Republic of China) occupation of Taiping Island, but, oh, Peoples' Republic of China's claims are regarded as absurd and aggresive !!

Come on, Washington cheerleaders, where's your sense of consistency ? You want to display your hypocrisy ?

Here's the wikipedia link for Taiping Island. If you click on it, you will notice that it's nowhere near China.

Them Chinese in the Republic of China (Taiwan), are they willing to fight to defend ownership of that island ? What other islands are they willing to fight for ?

[tonbridgebrit]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Island

(sorry, here is the wikipedia link to Taiping Island).

[boomerangutang]

China is the room-sized paper balloon tiger being held aloft by little flames below (its economic expansion fueled mostly by cheap plastic stuff and knockoffs of western products).

The flame which ignites the paper shell won't be the SCS imbroglio. It will be its imminent financial implosion.

[ddavidovsky]

The islands/rocks/reefs have historically belonged who whoever had the power to occupy them at the time - France, Japan, China - The end result of that political football is China is in control of most of it (with a bit held by Taiwan, as pointed out above).

Everyone is looking at this geographically - and geographically they should in all decency be portioned out between the surrounding countries - except that those surrounding countries have historically done nothing like enough to claim them or occupy them. They lose.

I still say the Chinese claim to these islands is exactly equivalent to Britain's claim to the Falklands. There does come a point when history becomes fixed and China has been clever (and industrious) enough to engineer it here. Galling as it is, if you don't like China, the SCS is now theirs. That's history. Learn the lesson and defend your claim better in future. The US had now really better back off.

[craigt3365]

I don't see any "cheerleaders" for Washington. More like posters saying what China is doing is wrong. They are violating a treaty they signed and now ignoring a decision from a well respected international court. Plus, being a bully to their neighbors.

What the US has been doing is freedom of navigation exercises. Which China also does in US waters.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_navigation

The South China Sea is an incredibly important piece of water. Some $5 trillion worth of goods go through there, including more than half the world’s annual merchant fleet tonnage and a third of all maritime traffic worldwide.

The world is a global society. Disruptions to this would impact every developed nation. Congrats on the US for trying to keep these waters open and free of weapons. Weapons being put there by China, not the US.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/17/china-places-missiles-woody-south-china-sea-islands

Your displeasure with the US is clouding your ability to see this issue clearly.

P.S. This isn't about money from tourism.

[craigt3365]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Island

(sorry, here is the wikipedia link to Taiping Island).

There are many disputes like this around the world. But this topic is about the recent court decision between the Philippines and China. This court ruling should help clarify things, but with no enforcement capability, it's up to the nations involved to abide. Good luck with that! LOL

[craigt3365]

The islands/rocks/reefs have historically belonged who whoever had the power to occupy them at the time - France, Japan, China - The end result of that political football is China is in control of most of it (with a bit held by Taiwan, as pointed out above).

Everyone is looking at this geographically - and geographically they should in all decency be portioned out between the surrounding countries - except that those surrounding countries have historically done nothing like enough to claim them or occupy them. They lose.

I still say the Chinese claim to these islands is exactly equivalent to Britain's claim to the Falklands. There does come a point when history becomes fixed and China has been clever (and industrious) enough to engineer it here. Galling as it is, if you don't like China, the SCS is now theirs. That's history. Learn the lesson and defend your claim better in future. The US had now really better back off.

Your logic fails as were not talking about islands. These are shoals and reefs that are being turned into habitable islands for the purposes of claiming surrounding natural resources. With massive ecological damages. This is how wars are started. And China is in the vanguard for this right now.

http://www.ibtimes.com/south-china-sea-controversy-beijing-send-nuclear-weapons-disputed-region-amid-us-2374399

[Publicus]

On Sina Weibo, a Chinese social media platform, China’s state newspaper People’s Daily published a map of China with the nine-dash line accompanied by the slogan “China cannot lose a single bit.” The image has been retweeted more than 2.9 million times. The map can be seen above in a tweet.

Yes, Publicus, you've put this map up again. The so-called nine-dash line, China's claim of the South China Sea is based on this.

Why don't you tell people about a few issues regarding this map ? Okay, you won't, I will.

The nine-dash line map first appeared BEFORE 1949, bearing in mind that the Peoples' Republic of China came into existence in 1949. The Peoples' Republic of China is today, main-land China. It was the Republic of China who came up with this map and made the claim before 1949, this was when Republic of China was mainland China. Republic of China lost the civil war and moved to Taiwan in 1949, and today, Republic of China calls itself Republic of China (Taiwan). So, the map (and claim) existed before the existence of the Peoples' Republic of China.

And today, Republic of China (Taiwan) still has an island, called Taiping Island, and it's the only real island (or one of a very few) in a vast area of the South China Sea.

Okay everybody, notice that Washington's cheerleaders say nothing about China's (Republic of China) occupation of Taiping Island, but, oh, Peoples' Republic of China's claims are regarded as absurd and aggresive !!

Come on, Washington cheerleaders, where's your sense of consistency ? You want to display your hypocrisy ?

Here's the wikipedia link for Taiping Island. If you click on it, you will notice that it's nowhere near China.

Them Chinese in the Republic of China (Taiwan), are they willing to fight to defend ownership of that island ? What other islands are they willing to fight for ?

PCA ruled that Taiping is a rock, that Taiping claimed by Taiwan is not an island.

While Taiping is the largest feature of the Spratlys, it is impossible to independently sustain human life on Taiping, which also means there is no economy there of any kind to create or to sustain. Hence Taiping is not an island. Philippines wins again because Taiwan can no longer chase away Phils fishermen under a claim by Taipei of a 200 nm EEZ an island would have. (As a rock, Taiping gets 500 meters and that's it.)

Taiwan has placed Coast Guard on Taiping and anchors CG cutters there, but all of it is supported by resources brought to it from Taiwan. There is no other way to support human life on the rock, even given it is a big rock as rocks go, has trees and some puddles of rainwater. The bottom line is that no one can live there independently. So it is a rock, not an island.

Moreover, Taiping and the Spratlys are almost 700 miles from the shores of either China or Taiwan. The Spratlys are 640 miles from Hainan Island of the CCP. Keep in mind also that Taiwan had no part in the PCA proceeding. This is due to the fact Taiwan is officially a province of the sovereign state named the People's Republic of China.

(While the Permanent Court of Arbitration is an independent entity created in 1895, it agreed to also become the United Nations Tribunal on the International Law of the Sea, in 1994, when the Convention was ratified by the required 60 nations to take effect. The UN does of course recognise the sovereignty of the People's Republic of China which claims Taiwan to be a province of the sovereign PRC.)

So the PCA, acting as the authorised UN Tribunal on the ILOS, ruled the Spratlys are rocks. Every feature of the Spratlys is a rock. Which means the two artificial islands CCP have constructed there are illegal under the provisions of the UNCLOS. They are Fiery Cross Reef and Mischief Reef. Illegal.

The difference however between the claim of CCP over all of the Spratlys, which was denied by PCA, and the Taiping claim by Taiwan, which was also denied by the PCA, is on the issue of the feature we call archipelago.

Beijing claimed it can make the long reach to claim the Spratlys because China says it is an archipelagic nation. PCA was actually polite in not laughing off this absurd claim given China is a continental nation. Conversely, Taiwan is indeed an island that is an archipelagic nation. Taiwan is a part of the Ryukyu archipelago from the south of Japan to the Spratlys. So technically, Taiwan can go either way in archipelagic terms. But Taiwan cannot in fact cannot go in either direction under UNCLOS because UN does not recognise Taiwan as a sovereign independent nation-state. This is the difference between the absurd claim of China to be an archipelagic nation and the fact Taiwan is in fact an archipelagic island.

The United States since it first examined these issues from a policy standpoint, back in the 1970s, has taken the position of having no position on the sovereign claims of any nation involved in SCS disputes (or in any such disputes anywhere in the world). The United States has always stated its advocacy of negotiation and peaceful resolution of disagreements or disputes of territory under the terms and provisions of the UNCLOS. The direct interests of the USA are only in the provisions of UNCLOS that provide for freedom of navigation on the high seas, in international waters, and in international air space as provided by the Convention. While the US Senate has not ratified the Convention, Potus Clinton signed it in 1994 and the Potus and Executive Branch of the US Government have observed the Convention with only rare exception.

Edited July 18, 2016 by Publicus

[happy Joe]

China practices the policy of small steps, like Announced.

It will not attack but will gradually increase its civilian and military infrastructure.

Then as time passes, it will impose its presence for granted, without possibility to contest.

The skill in this operation is to appropriate Interesting wealth, but not enough to trigger a war.

[Scott]

The US could give a rats behind about the SCS other than to keep the trade routes open and even that is of diminishing importance to the US. It is, however, important to countries with which there are strategic and military alliances. This would include Australia. The US will do nothing unilaterally about the artificial islands. That will be the job of the Filipinos. If they decide to remove the Chinese from the shoals they will have the full backing of the US. The US will not go it alone. It's not the US's fight.

The Filipinos are either going to have to get their ducks in a row with regard to the rest of the ASEAN community on the issue and then take action, or they are going to have to relinquish control of the islands or work out some sort of sharing agreement.