Beijing refuses to accept Hague ruling over South China Sea territorial claims

[Publicus]

The islands/rocks/reefs have historically belonged who whoever had the power to occupy them at the time - France, Japan, China - The end result of that political football is China is in control of most of it (with a bit held by Taiwan, as pointed out above).

Everyone is looking at this geographically - and geographically they should in all decency be portioned out between the surrounding countries - except that those surrounding countries have historically done nothing like enough to claim them or occupy them. They lose.

I still say the Chinese claim to these islands is exactly equivalent to Britain's claim to the Falklands. There does come a point when history becomes fixed and China has been clever (and industrious) enough to engineer it here. Galling as it is, if you don't like China, the SCS is now theirs. That's history. Learn the lesson and defend your claim better in future. The US had now really better back off.

UNCLOS rules the waves in the present day and age to include going forward.

In 1974 the PLA and its Navy attacked some of the Paracel islands occupied by Vietnam to take possession of them. In 1988 PLA and Navy completed the aggression by attacking and invading the remaining VN occupied islands of the Paracels to take possession of the whole of the island group. Under UNCLOS, the Paracels are within the EEZ of Vietnam.

The applicable case in international law and in the matters of sovereignty over territorial seas, islands, rocks, reefs etc is not the Falklands/Malvinas. The precedent which the PCA included in this SCS decision is the 1953 case of France v England in the matters of the Channel Islands.

In that case, France claimed sovereignty over the Channel Islands based on its ownership of them established between C.E. 1066 and 1252 forward as the Duchy of Normandy. England claimed to the contrary, i.e., historical claims must yield to actual facts. In other words, Britain has had administrative control of the islands for centuries since. The International Court of Justice sided with Britain and awarded control of the Channel Islands to UK. The PCA ruling in this case is consistent with the 1953 case from before the UNCLOS came into existence (1982) and into effect (1994).

PCA also ruled that throughout all of the recorded history of the SCS under any name, no single country or jurisdiction of the region has ever controlled it, and that no one single country does control it -- not legally and not presently. PCA acting as the UN Tribunal on the Convention on the International Law of the Sea ruled no one single country can or should control the Sea and its features, to include its resources.

Thursday CCP flew a nuclear capable but unarmed nuclear bomber over the Scarborough Shoal. One can argue CCP has the Paracels and the Spratlys, yet, CCP needs Scarborough Shoal to complete its potential control of the entire SCS.

Pentagon however has said Scarborough is its no-go zone, given it is in the Philippines EEZ and that mutual defense treaty ally Manila is only 140 miles from any missiles PLA would pace on Scarborough. While CCP has control over Scarborough due to its 2012 aggression, it has not placed anything there. Pentagon also said last week the future of this entire region will be decided in the SCS. So it would be wrong to say the matter is already decided or that it is already a fait accomplis. Reality is that this is just the beginning.

Edited July 18, 2016 by Publicus

[craigt3365]

Interesting article in the Bangkok Post today on Singapore. Exports to China are way down. Hard to believe the numbers from China. Could be more troubles there than they admit to? Massive layoffs coming in the coal and steel industries. These could come into play here also.

[Publicus]

The US could give a rats behind about the SCS other than to keep the trade routes open and even that is of diminishing importance to the US. It is, however, important to countries with which there are strategic and military alliances. This would include Australia. The US will do nothing unilaterally about the artificial islands. That will be the job of the Filipinos. If they decide to remove the Chinese from the shoals they will have the full backing of the US. The US will not go it alone. It's not the US's fight.

The Filipinos are either going to have to get their ducks in a row with regard to the rest of the ASEAN community on the issue and then take action, or they are going to have to relinquish control of the islands or work out some sort of sharing agreement.

US has two interests in SCS. They are mutual defense treaty allies and their relations with CCP, and US direct interests in freedom of navigation in the commercial/military lanes of ships and planes (to include submarines).

US mutual defense treaties are specific and exact -- necessarily so. The treaty is activated only if the military forces of a US ally suffer an unprovoked attack by a foreign government's military. The US mutual defense treaty ally has to be completely innocent for US to become militarily involved.

In other words, if the MTA Philippines made an unprovoked attack against a Chinese navy ship in the Phils EEZ, US is not militarily obligated to the Phils. Even if Beijing return attacked and sank a Phils navy ship, US would not be obligated under the mutual defense treaty, because Beijing would be acting out of a direct military to military provocation by the Phils. US in this way precludes getting dragged in to a military conflict initiated without provocation by a MTA.

In the second instance of freedom of navigation in international waters or airspace, the US would become directly involved at its own discretion or judgement. This is the most risky aspect.

If CCP declared a 200 mile EEZ from its artificial island in Fiery Cross Reef for instance, in the Spratlys, the US could and almost surely would challenge that under the UNCLOS and, further, citing the ruling of the PCA (which is also the UN Tribunal on ILOS). If CCP declared a Air and/or Sea Defense Identification Zone in part or in whole on or over the SCS, the US would challenge that, and it would challenge it directly.

If CCP declared any exclusive or permission-required zone on the sea and/or in the air from any island or rock it occupies, US would challenge that.

As it is, CCP could declare exclusive zones on one kind or another 200 miles in all directions from the Spratlys as a whole or from 200 miles out from the Paracels as a whole. Or from both sets of features. (Paracels being mostly islands, while Spratlys are all rocks and the Spratlys having two CCP constructed on reefs artificial islands.) CCP could then declare Defense Identification Zones on and over all of it, which is two-thirds of the SCS and enough to control SCS completely.

The $5 Trillion of value that traverses the SCS commercial lanes include vital ME oil to Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Asean, Australia and New Zealand. As a practical matter, these and other resources cannot be subjected to the permissions of the CCP Dictators in Beijing. CCP in these ways could gain control of all of East Asia to include Asean, Australia/NZ.

So I make this post only to follow up on your post and to point out to the applicable other posters that, only people who like dictators would advocate this, or approve of it, or be willing to accept or welcome it.

Edited July 18, 2016 by Publicus

[neverdie]

Where is all this going?

Nowhere and ffffaaaaaassssssst.

[craigt3365]

Funny comment.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/china-announces-south-china-sea-military-exercises-053142110.html

"Last month, the United States deployed two aircraft carriers in seas east of the Philippines and started monitoring the South China Sea with guided-missile destroyers," China's official Xinhua News Agency said Monday, noting that the actions came "a few days before a law-abusing ad hoc tribunal issued an ill-founded award on the South China Sea arbitration case."

[boomerangutang]

The massive Chinese propaganda machine appears to be in full swing. It's estimated 1% of all Chinese are directly involved with it. Here's a probable example. I wrote a comment on a Youtube video re; the SCS problem. As y'all know, I'm fully in favor of the Chinese going back to China. However, each time there's a response to my comment, I get an email with its text. In the 3 days since I posted, I've garnered 5 responses. All are from Chinese propagandists. They assume silly western-sounding names (nearly all Chinese students adopt western-sounding names in order to appear more credible in the business world). The names have been like; Alder Soundtrack, Miny Dishwish, Jermy Mindsoul, ......and so on.

All responses are in broken English. I can decipher their messages somewhat. They're simplistic & xenophopic.

In sum: China won't let go of its territory grab for anything less than a tangible show of force by the US. Words, threats, embargos, UN resolutions won't do anything except piss off the politburo further, and therefore compel the old men in the sequestered Beijing room to ramp up the propaganda machine. Before long it will be 2% of all Chinese. Awhile later, it may be 3% of all Chinese employed to deluge the internet with posts supporting territory grabs.

[Publicus]

The Philippines are not rolling over for the CCP Dictators in Beijing.

CCP wants to negotiate but to ignore the PCA ruling on UNCLOS, but the Phils who brought the case say the findings apply and must be the starting point and the guiding agenda of any bilateral negotiations.

Philippines rejects conditional talks on South China Sea dispute

The Philippines foreign minister says he has turned down a proposal from his Chinese counterpart to start bilateral talks on their South China Sea dispute, because China wants to ignore last week's arbitration ruling.

"[China's foreign minister] had asked us to open ourselves for bilateral negotiations, but outside, or in disregard of, the arbitral ruling," Perfecto Yasay said, referring to the ruling from The Hague.

"This is something I told him was not consistent with our constitution and our national interest."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-07-19/philippines-rejects-offer-of-south-china-sea-talks/7640924

The Phils foreign minister met informally with the CCP foreign minister during the Asia-Europe Meeting in Mongolia over the weekend. FM Perfecto Yasay said he'd asked CCP FM Wang Yi that, as a gesture of goodwill, CCP end their three years long blockade of Phils fishermen from Scarborough Shoal 140 miles from Manila. However, the CCP blockade of Scarborough by its Coast Guard continues as CCP have continued to turn away Phils fishermen since the PCA ruling.

No one should make any mistake of it here, that the Chinese are going to have to be brought kicking and screaming in to the 21st century where UNCLOS rules the waves.

Edited July 20, 2016 by metisdead
14) You will not post any copyrighted material except as fair use laws apply (as in the case of news articles). Please only post a link, the headline and the first three sentences.

[Scott]

The US could give a rats behind about the SCS other than to keep the trade routes open and even that is of diminishing importance to the US. It is, however, important to countries with which there are strategic and military alliances. This would include Australia. The US will do nothing unilaterally about the artificial islands. That will be the job of the Filipinos. If they decide to remove the Chinese from the shoals they will have the full backing of the US. The US will not go it alone. It's not the US's fight.

The Filipinos are either going to have to get their ducks in a row with regard to the rest of the ASEAN community on the issue and then take action, or they are going to have to relinquish control of the islands or work out some sort of sharing agreement.

US has two interests in SCS. They are mutual defense treaty allies and their relations with CCP, and US direct interests in freedom of navigation in the commercial/military lanes of ships and planes (to include submarines).

US mutual defense treaties are specific and exact -- necessarily so. The treaty is activated only if the military forces of a US ally suffer an unprovoked attack by a foreign government's military. The US mutual defense treaty ally has to be completely innocent for US to become militarily involved.

In other words, if the MTA Philippines made an unprovoked attack against a Chinese navy ship in the Phils EEZ, US is not militarily obligated to the Phils. Even if Beijing return attacked and sank a Phils navy ship, US would not be obligated under the mutual defense treaty, because Beijing would be acting out of a direct military to military provocation by the Phils. US in this way precludes getting dragged in to a military conflict initiated without provocation by a MTA.

In the second instance of freedom of navigation in international waters or airspace, the US would become directly involved at its own discretion or judgement. This is the most risky aspect.

If CCP declared a 200 mile EEZ from its artificial island in Fiery Cross Reef for instance, in the Spratlys, the US could and almost surely would challenge that under the UNCLOS and, further, citing the ruling of the PCA (which is also the UN Tribunal on ILOS). If CCP declared a Air and/or Sea Defense Identification Zone in part or in whole on or over the SCS, the US would challenge that, and it would challenge it directly.

If CCP declared any exclusive or permission-required zone on the sea and/or in the air from any island or rock it occupies, US would challenge that.

As it is, CCP could declare exclusive zones on one kind or another 200 miles in all directions from the Spratlys as a whole or from 200 miles out from the Paracels as a whole. Or from both sets of features. (Paracels being mostly islands, while Spratlys are all rocks and the Spratlys having two CCP constructed on reefs artificial islands.) CCP could then declare Defense Identification Zones on and over all of it, which is two-thirds of the SCS and enough to control SCS completely.

The $5 Trillion of value that traverses the SCS commercial lanes include vital ME oil to Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Asean, Australia and New Zealand. As a practical matter, these and other resources cannot be subjected to the permissions of the CCP Dictators in Beijing. CCP in these ways could gain control of all of East Asia to include Asean, Australia/NZ.

So I make this post only to follow up on your post and to point out to the applicable other posters that, only people who like dictators would advocate this, or approve of it, or be willing to accept or welcome it.

Thanks for the clarification, but since the Hague ruling, the Chinese are technically there illegally and any military action could be construed to be a direct threat to the Philippines.

I am really quite sure the US is not going to sit by and allow China to use military force on the Philippines without giving assistance.

[boomerangutang]

'The Chinese Century' is looking to be more like 'The Chinese One Score' (20 years).

China is losing so much face. Can they make plastic face (masks) to replace all the face they're losing? They make plastic everything else.

[Publicus]

Not all the CCP Boyz in Beijing are tyrants and racists. The CCPs in Beijing who are considerably better than that are not effective however as the hard line militants are in charge in the SCS contest/conflict.

The following is a pretty reasonable response to the PCA rulings by a CCP Chinese who as I note is being ignored in Beijing, as he and his fellow moderates have been ignored and will continue to be ignored. It's unfortunate at the least that the moderate reformer CCPs are on the outs in the regime of Xi Jinping.

He is Zha Daojiong, a Professor in the School of International Studies, Peking University, where he holds a joint appointment in its Institute of Ocean Research, and is a former Visiting Senior Fellow of the S.Rajaratnam School of International Studies of Singapore.

China Needs to Move On

It would be utterly unwise and self-destructive for any more effort organised or endorsed by the government of China over whatever aspect of the tribunal exercise the Philippines brought forth in 2013.

Lost in the mainstream rhetoric on the South China Sea is ‘functional cooperation’. China should champion maritime and marine functional cooperation on the South China Sea and the space above it.

http://www.eurasiareview.com/19072016-what-now-for-china-analysis/

So we see by this reasonable and reasoned statement that the CCPs in Beijing who have this view are marginalised while the Donald Trumps in Beijing are in charge and have been in charge of SCS bellicosity, belligerence, aggressions. And just about everyone else well knows how to handle a blustering bully.

Edited July 20, 2016 by metisdead
Edited as per fair use policy.

[EyesWideOpen]

Nice little dilemma for LoS as this involves fellow members of ASEAN against new best friend and source of loans China.

I suppose the fence will be nice and comfortable.

Yes LOS can count its lucky stars that the insane 9 dash

line does not wrap around and claim the Gulf of Thailand

as well as the islands there...... Thailand's new best

friend is a rapacious tiger, not sure Thailand's historical

fence sitting is going to work out well....

[EyesWideOpen]

Where is all this going?

WW3 with America....... In WW2 Japan went through China like a hot knife through butter, I suspect the same will happen again. Blustering aside, they simply are not a warring people. They should stick to making crappy products...

[Publicus]

The US could give a rats behind about the SCS other than to keep the trade routes open and even that is of diminishing importance to the US. It is, however, important to countries with which there are strategic and military alliances. This would include Australia. The US will do nothing unilaterally about the artificial islands. That will be the job of the Filipinos. If they decide to remove the Chinese from the shoals they will have the full backing of the US. The US will not go it alone. It's not the US's fight.

The Filipinos are either going to have to get their ducks in a row with regard to the rest of the ASEAN community on the issue and then take action, or they are going to have to relinquish control of the islands or work out some sort of sharing agreement.

US has two interests in SCS. They are mutual defense treaty allies and their relations with CCP, and US direct interests in freedom of navigation in the commercial/military lanes of ships and planes (to include submarines).

US mutual defense treaties are specific and exact -- necessarily so. The treaty is activated only if the military forces of a US ally suffer an unprovoked attack by a foreign government's military. The US mutual defense treaty ally has to be completely innocent for US to become militarily involved.

In other words, if the MTA Philippines made an unprovoked attack against a Chinese navy ship in the Phils EEZ, US is not militarily obligated to the Phils. Even if Beijing return attacked and sank a Phils navy ship, US would not be obligated under the mutual defense treaty, because Beijing would be acting out of a direct military to military provocation by the Phils. US in this way precludes getting dragged in to a military conflict initiated without provocation by a MTA.

In the second instance of freedom of navigation in international waters or airspace, the US would become directly involved at its own discretion or judgement. This is the most risky aspect.

If CCP declared a 200 mile EEZ from its artificial island in Fiery Cross Reef for instance, in the Spratlys, the US could and almost surely would challenge that under the UNCLOS and, further, citing the ruling of the PCA (which is also the UN Tribunal on ILOS). If CCP declared a Air and/or Sea Defense Identification Zone in part or in whole on or over the SCS, the US would challenge that, and it would challenge it directly.

If CCP declared any exclusive or permission-required zone on the sea and/or in the air from any island or rock it occupies, US would challenge that.

As it is, CCP could declare exclusive zones on one kind or another 200 miles in all directions from the Spratlys as a whole or from 200 miles out from the Paracels as a whole. Or from both sets of features. (Paracels being mostly islands, while Spratlys are all rocks and the Spratlys having two CCP constructed on reefs artificial islands.) CCP could then declare Defense Identification Zones on and over all of it, which is two-thirds of the SCS and enough to control SCS completely.

The $5 Trillion of value that traverses the SCS commercial lanes include vital ME oil to Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Asean, Australia and New Zealand. As a practical matter, these and other resources cannot be subjected to the permissions of the CCP Dictators in Beijing. CCP in these ways could gain control of all of East Asia to include Asean, Australia/NZ.

So I make this post only to follow up on your post and to point out to the applicable other posters that, only people who like dictators would advocate this, or approve of it, or be willing to accept or welcome it.

Thanks for the clarification, but since the Hague ruling, the Chinese are technically there illegally and any military action could be construed to be a direct threat to the Philippines.

I am really quite sure the US is not going to sit by and allow China to use military force on the Philippines without giving assistance.

Indeed as I would also say with confidence.

Phils needs only to take some of its smaller Coast Guard vessels and a Hamilton-class CG Cutter or two and park 'em at the small entrance to the horseshoe shaped Scarborough Shoal. Then it would be up to CCP whether to try to ram 'em, which is the favorite CCP tactic, or take some pot shots at the Phils cutters to try to scare 'em off.

All the while on standby at the horizon would be the USS Ronald Reagan Carrier Strike Force 5, currently deployed in the SCS and which includes cruisers, destroyers, submarines and two air wings totaling 70 fighter jets and other craft. There would be some Reagan carrier launched aircraft over head but also at a distance. Some US and Phils aircraft from the Phils flying around too for recon and additional support.

CCP could decide then what it might want to consider doing or not doing.

As I'd noted, the mutual defense treaty applies only if a foreign government fires on the Phils military (also: any Phils ship at sea or any Phils aircraft in the air) without provocation. The treaty does not activate if the Phils fires first -- unless provoked to fire first, as in an "obvious" self-defense (a kamikaze or some such CCP action for instance).

Whether CCP Dictators in Beijing recognise it or not, they don't really want to carry this on any further.

Under the PCA ruling no one has to do anything to change the status quo. However, the Tribunal's legal rulings do not preclude changes to reverse the status quo, or to develop more positively from the extant status quo. The irony of the UNCLOS might be that it is about features such as rocks, islands, archipelagos, continents and their coastlines, rather than water.

[boomerangutang]

Not all the CCP Boyz in Beijing are tyrants and racists. The CCPs in Beijing who are considerably better than that are not effective however as the hard line militants are in charge in the SCS contest/conflict.

The following is a pretty reasonable response to the PCA rulings by a CCP Chinese who as I note is being ignored in Beijing, as he and his fellow moderates have been ignored and will continue to be ignored. It's unfortunate at the least that the moderate reformer CCPs are on the outs in the regime of Xi Jinping.

He is Zha Daojiong, a Professor in the School of International Studies, Peking University, where he holds a joint appointment in its Institute of Ocean Research, and is a former Visiting Senior Fellow of the S.Rajaratnam School of International Studies of Singapore.

China Needs to Move On

It would be utterly unwise and self-destructive for any more effort organised or endorsed by the government of China over whatever aspect of the tribunal exercise the Philippines brought forth in 2013.

Lost in the mainstream rhetoric on the South China Sea is ‘functional cooperation’. China should champion maritime and marine functional cooperation on the South China Sea and the space above it.

http://www.eurasiareview.com/19072016-what-now-for-china-analysis/

So we see by this reasonable and reasoned statement that the CCPs in Beijing who have this view are marginalised while the Donald Trumps in Beijing are in charge and have been in charge of SCS bellicosity, belligerence, aggressions. And just about everyone else well knows how to handle a blustering bully.

WOW, a prominent Chinese person who has an original thought AND is not too scared to express his views. That should be headline news in Chinese newspapers. ...but it won't. Instead, the outspoken person will probably lose his job, have his car confiscated, his daughter refused a visa to go to college in the US, and......... he may go missing for two months (re-education camp at an undisclosed location) like the book store managers in Hong Kong.

Speaking of undisclosed locations, where is LC?

[Publicus]

CCP Dictators in Beijing have given no indication whatsoever they have given even a moment's serious consideration of the PCA rulings and to the UNCLOS which they signed and now are violating directly and blatantly.

Instead, this is what is coming out of Beijing...

The vast majority of press reporting since the Tribunal issued its ruling has been focused on aggressive posturing by Chinese officials who decry the illegitimacy of the decision and the prospect Beijing will have to up the ante to register its dissent with the holding.

Reports have intensified that China is actively considering a South China Sea Air Defense Interception Zone (ADIZ) and is a continuing to block Philippine access to the waters near Scarborough Shoals.

There are also reports that China is considering the deployment of floating nuclear power plants to the South China Sea to provide power to offshore platforms...that the PCA was essentially bribed to reach a decision in the Philippines’ favor because the court costs were paid by the Philippine government...Chinese Premier Li Keqiang’s warning to Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe that since Japan is not directly involved in the South China Sea issue it should “exercise caution in its own words and deeds, and stop hyping up and interfering”, suggest that careful analysis and reflection is not the order of the day in Beijing.

http://thediplomat.com/2016/07/china-has-much-to-gain-from-the-south-china-sea-ruling/

It is the case btw that within the CCP ruling elites it is okay to write articles advocating different perspectives of how the Party should relate to various issues or matters. Competing voices are allowed but only within the ruling circles and in only the Party's exclusive publications and journals -- and only within the framework of Party rules, its strict standards of expression, and within certain clearly defined and understood bounds of language, tone, temper, voice.

The general population and even the rank and file Party members never see the journals or participate in the discussions of the various issues, foreign and domestic, nor does the general population have any exposure to the publications and arguments. This is one very easy way for governments and financial institutions throughout the world, to include militaries of countries, to get a quick insight into the kind of thinking and discourse occurring in the CCP elite circles.

(The publications are never completely open of course, and some writings are in fact diversionary or outright deceptive, but the writings do exist for foreigners to read. The exclusive and elite Party journals and publications do serve the purpose of communicating certain messages in the broad range of vital matters to the outside world that don't get discussed on a daily or even a weekly or monthly basis.)

Edited July 20, 2016 by Publicus

[LawrenceChee]

Not all the CCP Boyz in Beijing are tyrants and racists. The CCPs in Beijing who are considerably better than that are not effective however as the hard line militants are in charge in the SCS contest/conflict.

The following is a pretty reasonable response to the PCA rulings by a CCP Chinese who as I note is being ignored in Beijing, as he and his fellow moderates have been ignored and will continue to be ignored. It's unfortunate at the least that the moderate reformer CCPs are on the outs in the regime of Xi Jinping.

He is Zha Daojiong, a Professor in the School of International Studies, Peking University, where he holds a joint appointment in its Institute of Ocean Research, and is a former Visiting Senior Fellow of the S.Rajaratnam School of International Studies of Singapore.

China Needs to Move On

It would be utterly unwise and self-destructive for any more effort organised or endorsed by the government of China over whatever aspect of the tribunal exercise the Philippines brought forth in 2013.

Lost in the mainstream rhetoric on the South China Sea is ‘functional cooperation’. China should champion maritime and marine functional cooperation on the South China Sea and the space above it.

http://www.eurasiareview.com/19072016-what-now-for-china-analysis/

So we see by this reasonable and reasoned statement that the CCPs in Beijing who have this view are marginalised while the Donald Trumps in Beijing are in charge and have been in charge of SCS bellicosity, belligerence, aggressions. And just about everyone else well knows how to handle a blustering bully.

WOW, a prominent Chinese person who has an original thought AND is not too scared to express his views. That should be headline news in Chinese newspapers. ...but it won't. Instead, the outspoken person will probably lose his job, have his car confiscated, his daughter refused a visa to go to college in the US, and......... he may go missing for two months (re-education camp at an undisclosed location) like the book store managers in Hong Kong.

Speaking of undisclosed locations, where is LC?

Don't worry....I'm still here...just been busy making money while the fury of events went past...

The Chinese would sit this one out.

With ISIS being so active...this Hague ruling will be bygone headline news by next quarter and Christmas is here. There is a lot more to worry about in the world than a ruling like this which is largely symbolic and a farce (yes I can pronounce this word in English and can say it in Mandarin too)

The Chinese have tested a lot of grounds in this case and I believe this will augur well for them as the different committees needed to see what kind of reaction they would get and how far they can push with this. I call this politically awakening and some would describe it as bullying etc etc

The Chinese have rejected this ruling, they wont back down from this and behind the scenes , there will be a politically correct trade deal to close this off and it will take years for the politicians to work this out so that the PR machines can make it look beautiful disappointing all the warmongers

In the meantime, there will be no war, Chinese won't lose a war easily and can defend its own interests.

I believe the west have made a big deal saying China is violating UNCLOS that they have signed ; the reality is in Chinese minds there is a huge amount of hypocrisy and now they are learning why the big 5 rarely sign anything ....so in trying to be different, China is learning a hard lesson through history that being the Big 5 means it's much better to sit on the fence rather than make your position known.

They will learn fast that foreign powers are often the best at this , talking of world peace etc and yet when the matter favours the situation, they will exploit and take resources too and hope the media does not catches it on.

[LawrenceChee]

Looking at today's Chinese newspapers, the entire population of China is now whipped into a hysterial, nationalistic frenzy. Well, here it is. We haven't seen this kind lunacy since Japan attacked Pearl Harbour. It took a couple of nuclear bombs to bring that to an end. That won't work this time. China still hasn't got over Nanjing and will push this to the brink and beyond.

Here's a prediction: there will be a nuclear bomb used in aggression, somewhere in the world, within the next ten years. Mankind seems to have a biological need for upheaval now and then, and it seems to be coming: mass migrations, rising nationalism, civil war within Islam, the breakdown of the EU, nuclear-empowered rogue nations, climate change, oil and water security issues - and now China annexing swathes of territory belonging to other nations.

Mankind has never been here before - there's never been so much insecurity, and never so many nukes around. The tension will break sooner or later. It will only take one moment of madness to trigger a chain of retributive attacks. It's coming, and I'm glad I don't have children.

Looked at another way; the world has been relatively peaceful since the end of the Korean War. Sure there have been many armed conflicts, but compared to the first half of the 20th century, it's been less insane. And prior to the 20th century, there was at least one serious war going on somewhere in the world at one given time since Salamis.

I agree somewhat with the missive above. Tensions are building, and a WW could break out. With a WW, however, there has to be coalitions on both sides. With the SCS debacle, China doesn't have any significant allies. Ok, there's N.Korea, possibly. And China backers have said Russia will side with China, but that won't happen. Russians suffered immensely in the WW's and their leaders aren't stupid.

The tensions in the SCS are 100% Made in China (like Trump's clothes lines). The quickest and easiest way for the problem to go away would be for Chinese to go back to China.

No WWIII will break out over these islands.

The military tension and all these defence stuff started with the USA coming to a new region to interfere ....there was a lot of tense words and discussions and never a military response ever discussed ; the USA brought their fleet here and starting patrolling the area when there was really nothing to guard ...it was a message the USA wanted to delver but this foreign display of power is getting tiresome and useless in the world of diplomacy

Even the Philippines have openly said they will not go into any armed conflict. At the end of this is trade and some foreign powers refuse to see that and insist in brining their military here to enforce a Hague ruling that is not recognised.

Going against China and Russia is just dumb foreign policy...there is enough in the world shift to actually collaborate. The USA should play to that advantage and stop trying to divide these things up. China will eventually close a deal with Philippines and it will disappoint many on this platform who seems bent on seeing China being humiliated or smacked...it wont happen.

[boomerangutang]

CCP Dictators in Beijing have given no indication whatsoever they have given even a moment's serious consideration of the PCA rulings and to the UNCLOS which they signed and now are violating directly and blatantly.

That's their public spin, but privately the old men at the top of the pyramid in Beijing take it seriously.

As for LC's opinions: It's interesting to note that he thinks China will now be more wary of signing int'l agreements. That could prove to be true. China is not a signatory to the Mekong River Commission, even though China is a major player in the pact. Some would say THE major player, as with its 8 giant dams upriver, it can control a large portion of the water and/or pump 1/5th of it out - and down to the lowlands of Han China.

LC: "The military tension and all these defence stuff started with the USA coming to a new region to interfere"

Boomer's reality check: All the tensions in the SCS stem from Chinese sneaking in there and claiming other countries' territory. The proof is: if Chinese completely withdraw, there will be no tensions. In contrast, if the US withdraw their warships, there will still be tensions because Fils and VN don't want the Chinese coming over and commandeering their territories.

[LawrenceChee]

CCP Dictators in Beijing have given no indication whatsoever they have given even a moment's serious consideration of the PCA rulings and to the UNCLOS which they signed and now are violating directly and blatantly.

That's their public spin, but privately the old men at the top of the pyramid in Beijing take it seriously.

As for LC's opinions: It's interesting to note that he thinks China will now be more wary of signing int'l agreements. That could prove to be true. China is not a signatory to the Mekong River Commission, even though China is a major player in the pact. Some would say THE major player, as with its 8 giant dams upriver, it can control a large portion of the water and/or pump 1/5th of it out - and down to the lowlands of Han China.

LC: "The military tension and all these defence stuff started with the USA coming to a new region to interfere"

Boomer's reality check: All the tensions in the SCS stem from Chinese sneaking in there and claiming other countries' territory. The proof is: if Chinese completely withdraw, there will be no tensions. In contrast, if the US withdraw their warships, there will still be tensions because Fils and VN don't want the Chinese coming over and commandeering their territories.

Yeap ...China has learnt looking at the Kyoto agreement , it's would be highly hypocritical to sign that knowing that you have 1.3 billion to take care of first....so learning from japan, Australia and USA who didn't sign it , indeed it may be foolhardy to sign an environmental agreement which later you cannot fulfill.

Better to just take steps to try to improve it and move baby steps...after all there is time in this world...why rush to impress ? China is learning from this ruling that int'l recognition comes with costs and must be balanced out first with its own needs.

[craigt3365]

No WWIII will break out over these islands.

The military tension and all these defence stuff started with the USA coming to a new region to interfere ....there was a lot of tense words and discussions and never a military response ever discussed ; the USA brought their fleet here and starting patrolling the area when there was really nothing to guard ...it was a message the USA wanted to delver but this foreign display of power is getting tiresome and useless in the world of diplomacy

Even the Philippines have openly said they will not go into any armed conflict. At the end of this is trade and some foreign powers refuse to see that and insist in brining their military here to enforce a Hague ruling that is not recognised.

Going against China and Russia is just dumb foreign policy...there is enough in the world shift to actually collaborate. The USA should play to that advantage and stop trying to divide these things up. China will eventually close a deal with Philippines and it will disappoint many on this platform who seems bent on seeing China being humiliated or smacked...it wont happen.

Please don't blame the US for this. China is being a bully and the legal action was started by the Philippines.

The environmental disaster they've created is unforgivable.

Going against countries who don't respect the sovereign boundaries of other countries is what civilized nations do.

It's not just up to the Philippines to resolve this. Several other nations are also a party to this.

[Publicus]

Not all the CCP Boyz in Beijing are tyrants and racists. The CCPs in Beijing who are considerably better than that are not effective however as the hard line militants are in charge in the SCS contest/conflict.

The following is a pretty reasonable response to the PCA rulings by a CCP Chinese who as I note is being ignored in Beijing, as he and his fellow moderates have been ignored and will continue to be ignored. It's unfortunate at the least that the moderate reformer CCPs are on the outs in the regime of Xi Jinping.

He is Zha Daojiong, a Professor in the School of International Studies, Peking University, where he holds a joint appointment in its Institute of Ocean Research, and is a former Visiting Senior Fellow of the S.Rajaratnam School of International Studies of Singapore.

China Needs to Move On

It would be utterly unwise and self-destructive for any more effort organised or endorsed by the government of China over whatever aspect of the tribunal exercise the Philippines brought forth in 2013.

Lost in the mainstream rhetoric on the South China Sea is ‘functional cooperation’. China should champion maritime and marine functional cooperation on the South China Sea and the space above it.

http://www.eurasiareview.com/19072016-what-now-for-china-analysis/

So we see by this reasonable and reasoned statement that the CCPs in Beijing who have this view are marginalised while the Donald Trumps in Beijing are in charge and have been in charge of SCS bellicosity, belligerence, aggressions. And just about everyone else well knows how to handle a blustering bully.

WOW, a prominent Chinese person who has an original thought AND is not too scared to express his views. That should be headline news in Chinese newspapers. ...but it won't. Instead, the outspoken person will probably lose his job, have his car confiscated, his daughter refused a visa to go to college in the US, and......... he may go missing for two months (re-education camp at an undisclosed location) like the book store managers in Hong Kong.

Speaking of undisclosed locations, where is LC?

Don't worry....I'm still here...just been busy making money while the fury of events went past...

The Chinese would sit this one out.

With ISIS being so active...this Hague ruling will be bygone headline news by next quarter and Christmas is here. There is a lot more to worry about in the world than a ruling like this which is largely symbolic and a farce (yes I can pronounce this word in English and can say it in Mandarin too)

The Chinese have tested a lot of grounds in this case and I believe this will augur well for them as the different committees needed to see what kind of reaction they would get and how far they can push with this. I call this politically awakening and some would describe it as bullying etc etc

The Chinese have rejected this ruling, they wont back down from this and behind the scenes , there will be a politically correct trade deal to close this off and it will take years for the politicians to work this out so that the PR machines can make it look beautiful disappointing all the warmongers

In the meantime, there will be no war, Chinese won't lose a war easily and can defend its own interests.

I believe the west have made a big deal saying China is violating UNCLOS that they have signed ; the reality is in Chinese minds there is a huge amount of hypocrisy and now they are learning why the big 5 rarely sign anything ....so in trying to be different, China is learning a hard lesson through history that being the Big 5 means it's much better to sit on the fence rather than make your position known.

They will learn fast that foreign powers are often the best at this , talking of world peace etc and yet when the matter favours the situation, they will exploit and take resources too and hope the media does not catches it on.

The "Three Warfares" of the CCP in the 21st century as presented by Hu Jintao a decade ago have gone bust in the SCS. They never were effective and now, like the five Brics countries before them, they are defunct. Kaput...

1) Psychological warfare

2) Media warfare (PR propaganda)

3) legal, using law(fare)

Lost every one of 'em on this one in the South China Sea -- lost the whole package completely and entirely. The whole thing got blown out of the water and nobody fired a shot. Yes this will drag on for some time yet, but the outlines of it are becoming apparent and your post reinforces the fact.

You want to talk about Christmas so let's just say you've given the Philippines a Christmas gift.

Yes, CCP are in the Paracel Islands off Vietnam, and CCP are in the Spratly rocks of the Philippines, however, the UN Tribunal on the ILOS told 'em they have no business being there. CCP are legally bound by the ruling. Defying and denouncing the UNCLOS -- ignoring or dismissing it -- doesn't change the fact CCP are legally bound by the Tribunal's ruling.

Maybe CCP is beginning to realise and recognise they can't do what they 100% presumed they could do. CCP appear to have learned something. We knew you could, being practical and all of the rest of it. Youse guyz made your advances, yet our side stopped you at Scarborough Shoal. (If there might be yet more to come, it would be at Scarborough Shoal and it would not be pretty, which is clear to everyone at this point -- presumably.)

There are still big fish and there are still little fish, just as there have always been. However, now there is the law of the sea. And had there been any doubt, everyone sees who the cops are who move in to enforce it.

It isn't over till it's over, however, CCP are being called on their three "warfares", which are nothing more than their 21st century incarnation of winning without firing a shot. As it becomes clear to CCP they will have to fire a shot to win, they're going to have to regroup and go back to the drawing board. Chinese don't like to fire shots. They're just not good at it and they haven't ever been so inclined.

The way to stop the bully is stand up to him. For one thing, a bully trying to sneak around ends up instead more of a Wiley Coyote.

[LawrenceChee]

The sales of these arms is useful to the USA govt politically and the Chinese wont fire the first shot because it has learnt through discrimination that if it repeats something similar to the damn Tiananmen incident ...it will feed fodder to the Chinese haters who will use that as a forever term to displace the communists.

Asians understand racism and understand the west plays double standards and hence in not recognising the Hague ruling...China is moving ahead with its own agenda and will continue to push forward its trade deals...moving from point to point of agendas is what governments do and should do.

Govt should try what they believe is fundamentally good for their own agendas and when it does not work , head back to the drawing board and see what will ...nothing different from a big board of directors in any corporation.

You can call it bully etc but it wont stop the Chinese from repeating what the USA, UK, Japan has done in recent years....it's just plain racism that unless it's anti China on the agenda, it is not as reported on the global news...The Chinese are waking up to that reality....later on it will be another country and life moves on....

[boomerangutang]

Chinese don't like to fire shots. They're just not good at it and they haven't ever been so inclined.

you can say that again. . . . .

[Publicus]

No WWIII will break out over these islands.

The military tension and all these defence stuff started with the USA coming to a new region to interfere ....there was a lot of tense words and discussions and never a military response ever discussed ; the USA brought their fleet here and starting patrolling the area when there was really nothing to guard ...it was a message the USA wanted to delver but this foreign display of power is getting tiresome and useless in the world of diplomacy

Even the Philippines have openly said they will not go into any armed conflict. At the end of this is trade and some foreign powers refuse to see that and insist in brining their military here to enforce a Hague ruling that is not recognised.

Going against China and Russia is just dumb foreign policy...there is enough in the world shift to actually collaborate. The USA should play to that advantage and stop trying to divide these things up. China will eventually close a deal with Philippines and it will disappoint many on this platform who seems bent on seeing China being humiliated or smacked...it wont happen.

Please don't blame the US for this. China is being a bully and the legal action was started by the Philippines.

The environmental disaster they've created is unforgivable.

Going against countries who don't respect the sovereign boundaries of other countries is what civilized nations do.

It's not just up to the Philippines to resolve this. Several other nations are also a party to this.

The environmental disaster they've created is unforgivable.

Indeed.

The environmental damage to the reefs and all in the Philippines EEZ was a specific charge Manila brought and which the Tribunal did find against CCP Dictators in Beijing.

Australia Prof. Clive Schofield who is expert on sustaining coastal and maritime zones, and who testified at the Tribunal, today writes...

China has caused severe harm to the coral reef environment and violated its obligation to preserve and protect fragile ecosystems and the habitat of depleted, threatened or endangered species through its recent large-scale land reclamation and construction of artificial islands on seven features in the South China Sea.

China has aggravated the dispute since the start of the arbitration process, particularly through large-scale land reclamation and artificial island construction activities, which have inflicted irreparable harm on the marine environment.

http://www.thestatesman.com/news/supplements/implications-of-south-china-sea-verdict/155389.html

Yet, in CCP's defiance of the Tribunal it maintains it will continue to build and to construct, and to thereby destroy and demolish the reefs, rocks, maritime life, to include expanding artificial islands for tourism.

CCP has some new islands but life in the SCS is the lesser because of it.

[LawrenceChee]

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/oct/04/fracking-us-toxic-waste-water-washington

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2013/dec/14/toxic-ewaste-illegal-dumping-developing-countries

There is a certain stench of being hypocritical from the west and hence my particular hatred at any sense that the thread swings against China for just being China .

I can see why there are certain fractions that disagree with China's stance and it's recent activities in SCS.

I'm an environmentalist first but also practical enough to understand in politics you don't win them all.

China or CCP is not a perfect government and while they have done certain things right, they will make mistakes along the way. This SCS negotiation has gone wrong for China in many ways because there are committees which want to counter the USA's aggressive military interference and there are also those who favours a tilt in focus on solving the trade / financial issues first. In this round, the military folks won and thankfully while there will be blistering talk and aggressive stance, common sense will prevail and also the cost of any military activities that will be a waste of money.

China needs better PR management and more focus on trade as this is the only consistent diplomacy tool to use in Asia. ASEAN always have a fascination with the west but there is no doubt at the end China is a strategic partner in ASEAN and trading with the Asia bloc is foreseeably going to always happen with China around.

There is no partner here with more weightage than China in this area and China should focus on that while defending strongly its rights as a superpower.

[craigt3365]

The sales of these arms is useful to the USA govt politically and the Chinese wont fire the first shot because it has learnt through discrimination that if it repeats something similar to the damn Tiananmen incident ...it will feed fodder to the Chinese haters who will use that as a forever term to displace the communists.

Asians understand racism and understand the west plays double standards and hence in not recognising the Hague ruling...China is moving ahead with its own agenda and will continue to push forward its trade deals...moving from point to point of agendas is what governments do and should do.

Govt should try what they believe is fundamentally good for their own agendas and when it does not work , head back to the drawing board and see what will ...nothing different from a big board of directors in any corporation.

You can call it bully etc but it wont stop the Chinese from repeating what the USA, UK, Japan has done in recent years....it's just plain racism that unless it's anti China on the agenda, it is not as reported on the global news...The Chinese are waking up to that reality....later on it will be another country and life moves on....

This post shows the exact problem. It's not our fault, it's everybody else's. Do what you want and ignore what is the right thing to do, as a global citizen. Very sad.

[craigt3365]

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/oct/04/fracking-us-toxic-waste-water-washington

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2013/dec/14/toxic-ewaste-illegal-dumping-developing-countries

There is a certain stench of being hypocritical from the west and hence my particular hatred at any sense that the thread swings against China for just being China .

I can see why there are certain fractions that disagree with China's stance and it's recent activities in SCS.

I'm an environmentalist first but also practical enough to understand in politics you don't win them all.

China or CCP is not a perfect government and while they have done certain things right, they will make mistakes along the way. This SCS negotiation has gone wrong for China in many ways because there are committees which want to counter the USA's aggressive military interference and there are also those who favours a tilt in focus on solving the trade / financial issues first. In this round, the military folks won and thankfully while there will be blistering talk and aggressive stance, common sense will prevail and also the cost of any military activities that will be a waste of money.

China needs better PR management and more focus on trade as this is the only consistent diplomacy tool to use in Asia. ASEAN always have a fascination with the west but there is no doubt at the end China is a strategic partner in ASEAN and trading with the Asia bloc is foreseeably going to always happen with China around.

There is no partner here with more weightage than China in this area and China should focus on that while defending strongly its rights as a superpower.

Don't deflect. Stay on topic. Typical reaction from one who has done wrong. This is about the SCS.

The US wouldn't even be there if China didn't start this. Cause and effect.

[LawrenceChee]

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/oct/04/fracking-us-toxic-waste-water-washington

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2013/dec/14/toxic-ewaste-illegal-dumping-developing-countries

There is a certain stench of being hypocritical from the west and hence my particular hatred at any sense that the thread swings against China for just being China .

I can see why there are certain fractions that disagree with China's stance and it's recent activities in SCS.

I'm an environmentalist first but also practical enough to understand in politics you don't win them all.

China or CCP is not a perfect government and while they have done certain things right, they will make mistakes along the way. This SCS negotiation has gone wrong for China in many ways because there are committees which want to counter the USA's aggressive military interference and there are also those who favours a tilt in focus on solving the trade / financial issues first. In this round, the military folks won and thankfully while there will be blistering talk and aggressive stance, common sense will prevail and also the cost of any military activities that will be a waste of money.

China needs better PR management and more focus on trade as this is the only consistent diplomacy tool to use in Asia. ASEAN always have a fascination with the west but there is no doubt at the end China is a strategic partner in ASEAN and trading with the Asia bloc is foreseeably going to always happen with China around.

There is no partner here with more weightage than China in this area and China should focus on that while defending strongly its rights as a superpower.

Don't deflect. Stay on topic. Typical reaction from one who has done wrong. This is about the SCS.

The US wouldn't even be there if China didn't start this. Cause and effect.

It is on topic.

China is not perfect and will make errors in its negotiations...however it is strange the west and some on the forum like to stranglehold the Chinese to positions and then say " there there you bastards we got you" and then never reflect on its own rise to powers and its own errors.

Hence the stink because the foreign powers like to judge and conveniently forget its allies mistakes.......China will make mistakes and acknowledging mistakes is difficult for bigger countries. There are scores of examples in the western world and China has risen to the same level of power matrix.

If one cannot accept that, then perhaps it's typical reaction of Chinese haters out there.

The SCS and Tiananmen are calibration moments...however if the west is expecting China to kowtow and apologise...that is plain stupidity and lack of understanding of first , Asian values and secondly the absence of understanding at the world stage the dominant powers don't apologise for mistakes...

If the world was this perfect .. ...Australia would have said sorry to the Aborigines for the decades of abuse and land grabbing...the British would have apologized to Africa for the years of plundering & pay back the proceeds....the past presidents of USA and UK will come out and say sorry they dragged the world into an illegal war...why don't they say it ?

It's simple. China made a mistake and wont say sorry they have pushed the Philippines too far...the difference is they will come back stronger, recover and do a trade deal...that in my books that will beat senseless slaughter, insecurity in a region and constant bombings and displacement that wont stop and displays of military bombings with no long term plans.

As for the Hague ruling...China wont and will not recognise it.

[boomerangutang]

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/oct/04/fracking-us-toxic-waste-water-washington

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2013/dec/14/toxic-ewaste-illegal-dumping-developing-countries

There is a certain stench of being hypocritical from the west and hence my particular hatred at any sense that the thread swings against China for just being China .

I can see why there are certain fractions that disagree with China's stance and it's recent activities in SCS.

I'm an environmentalist first but also practical enough to understand in politics you don't win them all.

China or CCP is not a perfect government and while they have done certain things right, they will make mistakes along the way. This SCS negotiation has gone wrong for China in many ways because there are committees which want to counter the USA's aggressive military interference and there are also those who favours a tilt in focus on solving the trade / financial issues first. In this round, the military folks won and thankfully while there will be blistering talk and aggressive stance, common sense will prevail and also the cost of any military activities that will be a waste of money.

China needs better PR management and more focus on trade as this is the only consistent diplomacy tool to use in Asia. ASEAN always have a fascination with the west but there is no doubt at the end China is a strategic partner in ASEAN and trading with the Asia bloc is foreseeably going to always happen with China around.

There is no partner here with more weightage than China in this area and China should focus on that while defending strongly its rights as a superpower.

LC, you say big countries make mistakes and it's harder for them (because they're big?!) to admit mistakes. Odd. Chinese decision-makers could have hired me (I'm cheap) to advise them on environmental ramifications of doing what they were planning to do (and still planning to do) at territories near the Fil coast. I would have told them it's massively destructive to the natural environment. It's as obvious as; 1 + 1 = 2.

As for dragging up the argument of; "well, western countries and Australia did bad things in their history, so China should be allowed to do bad things......"

That's a juvenile argument. Historically, all country governments have done bad things in the past. Now is now. Plus, it often happens that western countries will apologize and/or make amends for bad things that happened in the past. Again: Now is Now. 21st Century. In the past several decades, only two other countries (that I can recall) have tried to commandeer territory other countries: Argentina and the Falklands/Malvines, and Iraq and Kuwait.

And we know what resolved in those two cases. Now, decades after Argentina and Iraq, we have China doing similar. Any objective observer (in other words; anyone outside of China) can plainly see that China has no historical ownership rights to the territories they're occupying. It's too bad that the Beijing Propaganda Machine has whipped the Chinese sheeple into believing lies. That's going to have very bad repercussions, I'm sorry to say.

[LawrenceChee]

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/oct/04/fracking-us-toxic-waste-water-washington

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2013/dec/14/toxic-ewaste-illegal-dumping-developing-countries

There is a certain stench of being hypocritical from the west and hence my particular hatred at any sense that the thread swings against China for just being China .

I can see why there are certain fractions that disagree with China's stance and it's recent activities in SCS.

I'm an environmentalist first but also practical enough to understand in politics you don't win them all.

China or CCP is not a perfect government and while they have done certain things right, they will make mistakes along the way. This SCS negotiation has gone wrong for China in many ways because there are committees which want to counter the USA's aggressive military interference and there are also those who favours a tilt in focus on solving the trade / financial issues first. In this round, the military folks won and thankfully while there will be blistering talk and aggressive stance, common sense will prevail and also the cost of any military activities that will be a waste of money.

China needs better PR management and more focus on trade as this is the only consistent diplomacy tool to use in Asia. ASEAN always have a fascination with the west but there is no doubt at the end China is a strategic partner in ASEAN and trading with the Asia bloc is foreseeably going to always happen with China around.

There is no partner here with more weightage than China in this area and China should focus on that while defending strongly its rights as a superpower.

LC, you say big countries make mistakes and it's harder for them (because they're big?!) to admit mistakes. Odd. Chinese decision-makers could have hired me (I'm cheap) to advise them on environmental ramifications of doing what they were planning to do (and still planning to do) at territories near the Fil coast. I would have told them it's massively destructive to the natural environment. It's as obvious as; 1 + 1 = 2.

As for dragging up the argument of; "well, western countries and Australia did bad things in their history, so China should be allowed to do bad things......"

That's a juvenile argument. Historically, all country governments have done bad things in the past. Now is now. Plus, it often happens that western countries will apologize and/or make amends for bad things that happened in the past. Again: Now is Now. 21st Century. In the past several decades, only two other countries (that I can recall) have tried to commandeer territory other countries: Argentina and the Falklands/Malvines, and Iraq and Kuwait.

And we know what resolved in those two cases. Now, decades after Argentina and Iraq, we have China doing similar. Any objective observer (in other words; anyone outside of China) can plainly see that China has no historical ownership rights to the territories they're occupying. It's too bad that the Beijing Propaganda Machine has whipped the Chinese sheeple into believing lies. That's going to have very bad repercussions, I'm sorry to say.

Let's better believe this...no one is saying Chinese is not allowed to make mistakes ....that's misquoting and dumb.

What we are saying is Chinese will continue to push its agenda and see how far it can push...in this case, quote me " I think they have gone too far in pushing Philippines "

However they wont apologise and like all politicians will try to find a back door way to resolve this saving them some face in the process. Won't wanted wont see any superpowers humiliated.

In thinking about mistakes...understand this...they lost a Hague ruling...they have built a few structures and yes environmentally they have damaged some reefs....but they have not killed ...they have not murdered...they have not displaced millions...so in this mistake I would say this is a diplomatic one....they can recover this...those done by the west stinks of media cover ups...those are hard to manage because millions have lost their lives and lifestyle ....that is real and is not ancient. It does not give the right for china to copy those errors and indeed there are many in the committees voicing their displeasure at how far this has went.

USA has went into an illegal war...they have never apologised and they never will.... no matter what the Chinese media will paint it and write about it in the media....The Chinese accept this....the Vietnames have accepted the USA wont ever apologise for the use of Agent Orange and will never apologise for the war inflicted in Laos with all the landmines dropped. IT felt at that moment it was justified against the communists and it will never apologise.

And now is not ancient times...Syria is now....Australia is still now with displaced Aborigines and no apology after many many many prime ministers ...those are not historic...Congo is now....Iraq is now.......Afghanistan is still now...let;'s not deflect and divert and be damn hypocrites here thinking it's all fairy tales and happened in Persian times..

most of these happened between OS1 to OS 10 on your iPhone updates....

Edited July 21, 2016 by LawrenceChee