Shock, condemnation after Trump questions NATO commitments

[Junkyarddog]

This and that and that and this. Whatever. Its time We Americans rounded up our horses and put them back in our own barn. We don't want to pay for Europe's defense anymore and we don't want to send our children to die. Its time every country took care of their own affairs and leave America to try and figure out how to pay back twenty trillion dollars. Besides that is the best defense and best thing for Europe. If America goes under we are looking at mucho problemo. I don't know we are there for anyway. Does anyone believe Russia would really attack Europe?

[Junkyarddog]

This and that and that and this. Whatever. Its time We Americans rounded up our horses and put them back in our own barn. We don't want to pay for Europe's defense anymore and we don't want to send our children to die. Its time every country took care of their own affairs and leave America to try and figure out how to pay back twenty trillion dollars. Besides that is the best defense and best thing for Europe. If America goes under we are looking at mucho problemo. I don't know we are there for anyway. Does anyone believe Russia would really attack Europe?

[hugocnx]

What's the fuss?

Y'all want the USA to pull your chestnuts out of the fire again?

Quite right. If for own sake or whatever reason, America played policeman over the world and once you have a policeman he ought to watch over the herd, right?

But some Nato countries don't like to pay their contribution, but do want to rely on big brother. Shame, cause as soon as shit hits the fan they want America to clean up.

We have seen that America wasn't always a certified cleaner.

It is all in Trumps strategy to take care of biss at home first and let the rest take more care of themselves. What's wrong with that.

I wished my home country's Premier would care more about his own people and country.

Let's not forget that the World Wars in which America was inflicted are no clear coffee and that polarisation with the communists was an issue, a hype so you want.

Turkey is in the Nato and look what Erdogan is doing now. They have Patriot rocket protection and host an American nuclear base.

Seems they cannot actually remain a Nato state now, what do you/TV think?

Of course, it is something Trump says and that's why it is inapprpriate on first hand. Learn some history people and you will catch it.

[Caps]

This and that and that and this. Whatever. Its time We Americans rounded up our horses and put them back in our own barn. We don't want to pay for Europe's defense anymore and we don't want to send our children to die. Its time every country took care of their own affairs and leave America to try and figure out how to pay back twenty trillion dollars. Besides that is the best defense and best thing for Europe. If America goes under we are looking at mucho problemo. I don't know we are there for anyway. Does anyone believe Russia would really attack Europe?

You are not paying for the defence of Europe, You are paying for the defence of the US it just happens to be on European soil.

Why is it America like to make everyone think they are doing us all a favour? When in truth its for purely their own ends?

Edited July 22, 2016 by Caps

[Cory1848]

1. A treaty is not a matter of providing services for payment. If a treaty ally is threatened, demanding payment before acting to counter that threat is essentially blackmail. A treaty is an obligation, pure and simple.

2. Estonia and Poland both meet their NATO obligations in full by spending 2 percent of their GDP on defense. Latvia is ramping up defense spending and is committed to reaching 2 percent by 2018. Lithuania, while also ramping up defense spending, is admittedly behind and has committed to reaching 1.5 percent of GDP by 2018.

3. I don’t believe that Trump is aware of these facts; for Trump, even these simple statements are already TMI. In fact, I don’t think that Trump could point out the Baltic states on a map.

A treaty is an obligation by all parties. As so many rich European countries fail to meet their 2% contribution, I would consider terms of the treaty already breached. An insurance company has a commitment to provide care, see how much they pay on your next visit if your policy is not paid up.

Yes, you have a point, but the front-line states have for the most part paid up their obligations. Should we throw the fully compliant Estonians under the bus because the French don’t pay their share?

In all likelihood it’s a moot argument; as others have pointed out, any kind of shooting war between Russia and NATO is highly unlikely. The two sides have too many common interests and are even allied in many other matters. But NATO remains an important deterrent, and even hinting that the US might renege on its commitment is just plain stupid. One should maintain a position of strength; isn't that what Trump himself says? Putin would not have meddled in Georgia or Ukraine if either of those countries had been NATO allies ...

[Skywalker69]

After 67 years of America defending Europe its time Europe defended Europe.We are broke. Time to pack and go home.

If it wasn´t for Pearl Habor you would never got involved, period!!!

[Berty100]

I remember, not so long ago there was a thread on this very forum with HUNDREDS of post from American members condemning Nato and that the US contributed far too much.

But now that Trump voices the same concerns they all pull in their shit.

Bunch of hypocrites populates this forum.

[Skywalker69]

Just watching him speak at the Convention,reminds one of the Nuremberg

rallies,same sort of rhetoric,but I must say his facial expressions reminds

me more of Mussolini,

The wife's saying turn him off he's giving me a headache.says it all I think.

regards worgeordie

I heard the same analogy when Obama won...

As for headaches, Palin & GWB were tied for the worst for me but Hillary & Obama take a close second. I would place Trump in the Show position myself.

But I will never tire of his wife ;-)

Another one thinks with his dick!

[hugocnx]

What's the fuss?

Y'all want the USA to pull your chestnuts out of the fire again?

It's called a treaty alliance. If the US were to renege on a treaty commitment, the country would lose its credibility around the world for a few generations. Plus, it would be the wrong thing to do. Trump is worse than a "rookie"; he's a blithering idiot.

You are a masochist? Would you prefer another 4 years of cheating along with the globalists?

A treaty can be cancelled as well if you didn't know. Doesn't have to be the Nazi way

[hugocnx]

Does Trump have a death-wish?

Challenging the interests of the Military-Industrial Complex can be hazardous to your health.

JFK found that out the hard way.

I'm not much for conspiracy theories, but I would never stake my life on the single-shooter argument regarding JFK! As for Trump, I'd be more concerned what a consortium of Big Agriculture might do were a President Trump to seriously move to deport 15 million Mexican workers. He would last about five nanoseconds ...

He never said he wanted to deport 15 million Mexican workers. If so, show me.

[hugocnx]

Hang on, the Senate Republican leader says it's just a "rookie mistake"? Oh, Ok! That's great. The potential next president of the USA makes rookie mistakes. What other ones with potentially grave consequences will he make?

I think you are ignorent. So Clinton and the Bushes were that great. Remember the sudden autistic answers Bush jr gave when confronted with difficult issues. A total nutter.

It is not a rookie mistake, it is how it should go from now on, but the fffkkk correct politicians have to follow orders from the ones who pay them.

[augustwest]

Isn't Trump saying that if other countries, named specifically as Latvia, Estonia & Lithuania, don't pay the bill they agreed to then we may no linger provide services?

What part of that is unreasonable?

The article also states this non-payment of membership dues to NATO has been a long-standing issue.

Russia is the neighbor of Eastern European countries who rely on NATO for protection. When the monthly bill arrives in the mail I would think it is the one to be paid first.

1. A treaty is not a matter of providing services for payment. If a treaty ally is threatened, demanding payment before acting to counter that threat is essentially blackmail. A treaty is an obligation, pure and simple.

2. Estonia and Poland both meet their NATO obligations in full by spending 2 percent of their GDP on defense. Latvia is ramping up defense spending and is committed to reaching 2 percent by 2018. Lithuania, while also ramping up defense spending, is admittedly behind and has committed to reaching 1.5 percent of GDP by 2018.

3. I don’t believe that Trump is aware of these facts; for Trump, even these simple statements are already TMI. In fact, I don’t think that Trump could point out the Baltic states on a map.

Screw that. If you owe money,pay lt! These countries are taking the USA for a chump. Trump will put an end to this BS

[hugocnx]

Why should America pay between 75-96% of the costs of NATO over the past 20 years? I think 25% should be more like it, so Trump, the businessman wants each NATO country to pay a fair share, that includes Germany, who spply the cooks, France who supplies the flags, ect! Sounds good to me! Comrade Merkel ants to setup an EU ARMY, which sounds good, but without the Brits & the US, whoes going to do the fighting? Comrade Merkel said Germany will be the cooks in the new Army, but whoes going to do the fighting?

Good post and you see in this leftist forum, you don't get much Likes.

But never mind. We'll all be slaves together. Leftist utopia.

[hugocnx]

IF Trump did win and follows through on his insane threats then I can see no problem with the US pulling out of NATO. After all they will never be on-board with any of Trumps lunacy so better to just stand back and let him crash and burn. Trump wants his country back and is not interested in alliances with the outside world. Let's see how he gets on with that. Don't know why we are bothering with this debate though, the American people are not stupid enough to really elect him.

It is not them against America. It is time that politically correct people will see the failure of multi cultural society.

We, who live in Thailand, also see that true integration is not that easy. It is just impossible to make a people-cocktail. Yes, maybe in the long run, but not forced as is happening now in Europe especially and in America to come soon. And yes, this IS a forced migration.

[hugocnx]

Rancid

If you actually think that the EU is "gung ho" for a clash with Russia then you really have no grasp on reality concernig what happens in Europe. There was a time whenthe USA were seen as the world's policemen but those days are long gone. You're role is to support (as we all do) the fight against injustice and threats, no more than that.

EU has no say in this. The unelected morons just take orders from 'above'. War against Russia is only forced upon the EU and just when the EU claimed it's existence that there would be no more war. Don't make me laugh.

Russia will defeat the EU in a split second as the EU has no soldiers and only sold out military equipment; just for the purpose of being destroyed.

Don't think Putin is waiting for the globalist agenda to get him. He's done little wrong compared to others. Trump will make a deal for real.

[hugocnx]

One thing that hasn't been brought up is Trump's connections to Russian businessmen. By his own admission he does a lot of business with Russia. Maybe the reason he's being so positive about Putin is that it would bad for his business to do otherwise.

Reason is that Russia is quite a reasonable country with a reasonable president whom you better not make angry. It is the globalist agenda that needs to put Russia in the negative since that vast country don't like to be put under globalist command. Right they are and so should you about your own country. People are unique and shouldn't be forced to live together under complete different cultural conditions. Evolution works, force doesn't.

[ClutchClark]

If Trump is elected it will give good benchmark date for some not so distant future Chinese historian writing "Decline and Fall of the American Empire"

That timeline already started under Clinton's NAFTA and was accelerated under GWB and then most recently by Obama.

Trump is far from Number One on that list.

Nafta was negotiated by George H.W. Bush. The Democrats in the House voted against it. If it weren't for the overwhelming support of Republicans there would be no Nafta.

Listen Gents,

The original point I was making was to respond to someone suggesting the Fall of the American Empire was starting with a Trump "Win".

I responded the "Fall" started several presidencies ago. I vote Independent so I could care a less whether it falls on #41 or Bill Clinton. For the record, I voted for Clinton because back then the Dems were pro-Labor and I saw what NAFTA was going to do. I was still reeling from Reagans deregulation efforts--and I did vote for Reagan.

Then the conversation turned to who signed NAFTA and under whos watch and I correctly stated iit wasduring Clinton's term; however, both Chicog and I posted evidence of NAFTA (in various forms) being signed by #41 and by Clinton during their respective terms in office.

It was terrible legislation. I felt it when it was being discussed and I feel the same today after seeing the obvious damage unfold in the decades since. I am not nor have I ever been a supporter of globalization. I am guessing you guys were not blue-collar labor but I was and I saw the threat that globalization efforts such as NAFTA would have on those of us who sweat and toiled for a living because Industry would immediately exit to countries with zero environmental regulations and zero collective bargaining or OSHA-type standards or enforcement.

Is it possible for any of you to just communicate without your hyper-partisan armor on all the time?

Its politics. Politicians are crooks and liars. They always have been and always will be (except for Jimmy Carter) and yet you all defend your respective blue & red players like they are Baby Jesus.

Relax. Chill.

The fleecing of the American taxpayer and the destruction of the American Value System will continue unabated irregardless of your armchair warrior participation.

Edited July 22, 2016 by ClutchClark

[arjunadawn]

I doth thinketh they protesteth too much. After all, the EU finds it very convenient to simultaneously be questioning NATO, in pursuit of their standing army designs.

Its long been said 'you can judge a man by his enemies.' Trump illustrates this point by his entire candidacy. The sky is falling Trump is a racist and the end of the world crowd came out of the wood work and surprise, they are also a who's who of the architects of all broken things.

I encourage all those leaders and mouthpieces who oppose Trump to continue incessantly warning us of the consequences of his presidency. Fewer things can ensure a high turnout as that.

[RabC]

This thread is actually quite scary, I can not believe how many Trump supporters actually managed to get a passport and are now here.

[Scott]

Inflammatory post removed.

[Mansell]

All the Euros on this forum who constantly complain about the US military and its "empire" with military camps across Europe should be HAPPY to hear this news. So, why all the outrage? I think this is great. Why should the US go to nuclear war over the Baltic states?

Because like Hitler, Putin cannot be reasoned with, he only understands power bigger than his power. Give Putin a country, then he wants another, and another. We give him free rein and eventually the piper will need to be paid.

[mettech]

Trump is an opportunist and being that kind of man he manipulate the media and the public. it is sad to see what is happening to the great US of A they are loosing the war on all fronts and people are frustrated and being that way Trump utilized his manipulation strategy to win the revolted people.

As far of deporting Mexicans who will be in the fields picking veggies and fruit at day break till sun down I spent all past winter driving semi tractor trailer refrigerated and picking up loads of fresh veggies going to super markets in Canada and never seen any white man being in the field doing that kind of work.

So mr.trump will take the usa into poverty and making America good again figure that one out.

[Richard W]

Yes, you have a point, but the front-line states have for the most part paid up their obligations. Should we throw the fully compliant Estonians under the bus because the French don’t pay their share?

That's unfair. Last year (2015), the French spent 2.1% of GDP on defence. The problem is that it might be rather a bad idea to leave Italy undefended just because at 1.3% they aren't pulling their weight.

After 67 years of America defending Europe its time Europe defended Europe.We are broke. Time to pack and go home.

If it wasn´t for Pearl Habor you would never got involved, period!!!

That's a bit unfair. In 1941, before Pearl Harbour, the Americans were protecting the initial parts of trans-Atlantic convoys' journeys under the guise of the Pan-American Security Zone, and were engaging U-boats.

[Caps]

After 67 years of America defending Europe its time Europe defended Europe.We are broke. Time to pack and go home.

If it wasn´t for Pearl Habor you would never got involved, period!!!

That's a bit unfair. In 1941, before Pearl Harbour, the Americans were protecting the initial parts of trans-Atlantic convoys' journeys under the guise of the Pan-American Security Zone, and were engaging U-boats.

Was it not a bit unfair to try and tell us that the US has been defending Europe for 67 years. They have not defended Europe, they have been and will continue to defend themselves from European soil....there is a difference

May be if people didn't exaggerate that they wouldn't get comments like that.

Edited July 24, 2016 by Caps

[alanrchase]

After 67 years of America defending Europe its time Europe defended Europe.We are broke. Time to pack and go home.

If it wasn´t for Pearl Habor you would never got involved, period!!!

That's a bit unfair. In 1941, before Pearl Harbour, the Americans were protecting the initial parts of trans-Atlantic convoys' journeys under the guise of the Pan-American Security Zone, and were engaging U-boats.

Was it not a bit unfair to try and tell us that the US has been defending Europe for 67 years. They have not defended Europe, they have been and will continue to defend themselves from European soil....there is a difference

May be if people didn't exaggerate that they wouldn't get comments like that.

I agree. The US via NATO is using Europe as a buffer zone. If war broke out they would rather tie the Russians? up in Europe than have them knocking on their door. Apparently European nations in NATO are required to spend 2% GDP on defence for the privilege of being cannon fodder for the USA.

[Cory1848]

Yes, you have a point, but the front-line states have for the most part paid up their obligations. Should we throw the fully compliant Estonians under the bus because the French don’t pay their share?

That's unfair. Last year (2015), the French spent 2.1% of GDP on defence. The problem is that it might be rather a bad idea to leave Italy undefended just because at 1.3% they aren't pulling their weight.

You're correct, World Bank data shows 2.1 percent for France in 2015. Widely quoted sources however claim that only five EU countries pay 2 percent: the US, the UK, Greece, Estonia, and Poland. So there's a discrepancy, but the World Bank is authoritative. Apologies if I got that wrong. (And in any event I'm sure the French pay more than the Italians!)

[alanrchase]

*Off-topic posts removed*

I thought this thread was about NATO? Is Mexico a member?

Edited July 24, 2016 by Scott

[Scott]

*Off-topic posts removed*

I thought this thread was about NATO? Is Mexico a member?

You are right. I have removed a number of posts and replies.