"what Thaksin Had Done Wrong"

[sriracha john]

Stepping back and taking an idea from another poster. It really doesnt matter what good someone did if they broke a law or regulation or were corrupt. If, as is looking increasingly likely, tax avoidance was practiced by Mr. Thaksin and his family that is not excused by any good deed real or imagined. That spin is still put out by TRT's remaining spin doctors, canvassers, and Mr. Thaksin's personal acolytes, but in reality it is just there to try and confuse.

Then if we get into egregious human rights abuses involving deaths, of course introducing a "national health service" does not excuse one for these actions. Equally to argue that others have done the same in the past is again a false debate. At some point a primeminister will be held accountable for their actions in Thailand. The question remains is now that time?

We are getting into completely false debates.

If we want to debate the policies of the Thaksin government that may or may not have helped the country, and this is an interesting area of debate, we should start a new thread. Whatver these policies are they do not excuse abuses, which should be judged on their own under relevent laws and regulations.

Very well expressed.

In complete agreement and good to see the inane points and contentions raised in support or defense of Thaksin is recognized by others as the absurd contentions that they are.

[pete_r]

Really now, neither Taksin, nor his predecessors, nor his opponents such as Sondhi, have any ideology at all other than to maximize their own profits, line their own pockets, from taking political office. None of these people care about human rights violations or about avoiding taxes.

It's an extremely cynical point of view as well. Siripon once made a good argument against it - if Sondhi was driven by greed and not by ideology, he would have never left Thaksin and embarked on fighting TRT almost singlehandedly. And if not for eventual support of thousands upon thousands of Thais, he would have surely lost. Lost not only his fight, but his business as well.

Sondhi Limthongkul's financial interests were threatened by Thaksin, which has led to a fall out between the former buddies. If you look at Sondhi's past history, and present conduct at Channel 9 it is very clear to establish that he was and is driven by greed, and not much else. As much as Thaksin Sondhi is the personification of crony capitalism. Just because the one is a corrupt megalomaniac does not make his opponent any lesser so.

Sondhi was clearly a supporter of Thaksin, especially during the time most of Thaksin's corruption allegations stem from, during the time the grossest human right violations happened. He had his cronies, often former managers and employees of his own substantial business empire in key positions of Thaksin's government and there operated clearly in what is defined as crony capitalsm.

As much as Thaksin he adopted ideology and tactics of mass psychology to further his own business interests primarily, and not to develop democratisation of Thailand.

As much as Thaksin he plays lipservice to democracy, but is really just out for himself.

Good analysis of khun Sondhi's actions.

In 2005 he lost his line of credit at Bank Krung Thai when his protector CEO Viroj Nualkhair was fired. As a result his Manager media group faced bankruptcy, and the (main) reason he started his campaign against Thaksin was either to pressure him into saving Manager, or failing this to attract enough attention to increase the sales and save the group himself. Thaksin didn't take him seriously, then made the mistake of selling Shincorp, and the rest is history.

This part of the story is about big money, not about democratic ideals or political progress.

[pete_r]

Sondhi could have always swallow his pride and go on with business as usual, as everyone else done before him, yet he choose to confront Thaksin. That is not a sign of greed but convictions and idealism.

No, he couldn't have. He would have gone bankrupt. His campaign was a desperate move for his business, not for his convictions.

[Kaysfeld]

It works both ways - no one in his right mind would compare 30 baht scheme with French healthcare, for example.

No one would do it indeed : because it's not 30 THB we pay, but thousands of euros per people !

People are so stupid : they pay 22 euros to visit a doctor. Then the "system" pay them back (19 euros).

They think "our healthcare system is really, really good. It works fine".

But they dont't see that on their salary slip, per month, the total "social taxes" = 48 % !

You don't believe it ? Check the file attached....

So, yes, I agree with you : France is indeed a socialist country.

End of rant, and off topic.

PS : and of course, at the end of the year you have to pay the regular "income tax" too. But that's another story. Another socialist story

So you belive that health care is just for the rich.

Just let the poor die. We must avoid sharing any of our wellth with the poor, because it is "communist" or Socialist poisen.

Since when has it been bad to help and care about the ones who don't have anything.

Haven't you learnt anything about buddist teaching?

I think, tht if Thaksin have done anything good for Thailand and Thai people, then it is the 30 bath health system. It is far from perfect, but an important first step in the right direction. Now poor people at least have some kind of healt care.

[Plus]

Look at that CClub's list of taxes, the employee is taxed at 20% in that case, the employer than adds his part and in total it's nearly half the salary.

Practically no one in Thailand pays 20% in taxes, maybe less than 5%. Only few schemes like social security and providend funds require the employer to contribute anything.

Majority of people don't pay any taxes at all, only 7% VAT. Do they have VAT in France? In Germany it's not 7, it's 17%.

So how Thailand, a third world economy with capitalist taxation, can afford socialist healthcare???

People get the same diseases as in Europe, require essentially the same treatment, same medicines, and need doctors with the same qualifications. And that's what the upper and middle classes get here, on their private insurance schemes. 30 baht is NOT a real healthcare, it's a cheap leftover thrown to the poor.

It should be reworked, it needs new sources of funding, and it should be less universal, people who can afford paying more, should pay.

Hospitals going bankrupt, doctors fleeing in thousands, those who stay getting just a quarter of what their counterparts recieving in private hospitals for A LOT less work. The scheme is doomed. The gap between poor and rich will only widen, with poor getting worse and worse treatment with each passing year.

Great legacy.

Extreme socialism in action.

[Siripon]

We can argue about Sonthi Limtongkun forever, his motives and vengeance against Khun Pridiyathon are plainly linked to his loss of business after the removal of Khun Wiroj from Krungthai Bank, plus his support of Khun Somkit to be the next PM is threatened by Khun Pridiyathon's present prominence.

But I maintain he was the vanguard opposing Thaksin, and for that he deserves credit. Who else had the guts?

Regarding hospitals, The Thaksin government promoted Thailand as a cheap health centre for sick foreigners.

Apart from noting how many private hospitals Thaksin and his lawyer have invested in, it would be interesting to see how many state trained doctors have left the government sector for the lucrative private foreign sector promoted by Thaksin.

I fear it's many, to the detriment of the Thai people.

[ColPyat]

It should be reworked, it needs new sources of funding, and it should be less universal, people who can afford paying more, should pay.

Hospitals going bankrupt, doctors fleeing in thousands, those who stay getting just a quarter of what their counterparts recieving in private hospitals for A LOT less work. The scheme is doomed. The gap between poor and rich will only widen, with poor getting worse and worse treatment with each passing year.

Great legacy.

Extreme socialism in action.

You throw around with terms without understanding them. This has nothing to do with "extreme socialism".

In "extreme socialism" the entire health service is under government authority, and there are no private providers. Most likely because there is nobody who would be able to afford it either.

The 30 Baht system is the beginning of a social safety net, read again - the beginning . Nobody disputes that it needs to be reworked.

One thing though is sure - people who can afford private insurances hardly will take advantage of the 30 Baht scheme. The available service is so limited and basic that most who take advantage of them do need the 30 baht scheme as well.

Your claims that it is "doomed" though does not appear to be realistic. According to a recent statement of the finance minister it ran up debts, but the government household still is in very easily managable levels.

And our present government appearantly took it over, made it even free, and only looks for further funding. Doesn't sound that doomed to me.

[ColPyat]

Regarding hospitals, The Thaksin government promoted Thailand as a cheap health centre for sick foreigners.

Apart from noting how many private hospitals Thaksin and his lawyer have invested in, it would be interesting to see how many state trained doctors have left the government sector for the lucrative private foreign sector promoted by Thaksin.

I fear it's many, to the detriment of the Thai people.

Typical nationalist hyperbole.

Doctors always aspired to work in the private sector, even without the evil foreigners who might bring much needed money into Thailand, that also benefits educational instituions which educate doctors. Many of those doctors though, and some of the best and most reknown, are still working in public hospitals part time, and even as volonteers in such "evil" organisations such as the Por Teck Tueng.

Nice to read now that at least you admit that Sondhi is not purely altruistic in his efforts, as you have previously claimed.

[sriracha john]

It'll be interesting to hear how Sondhi will get tied into the blame for this other thing that "Thaksin Had Done Wrong":

Families of victims of extrajudicial killings seek help

Relatives of those killed during the previous government's 2003 war on drugs in Nakhon Ratchasima yesterday urged former senator Kraisak Chonhavan to help call for a re-opening of cases believed to have been committed by government officials.

Among the plaintiffs gathered at Kraisak's home were the relatives of Trakul Yito, a former Tambon Ban Soi Dao administration organisation official in Pak Chong district, who was gunned down on his dairy farm on August 1, 2003.

The relatives said the murder was certainly carried out by government officials because Trakul had a land dispute with a senior civil servant and had filed a lawsuit against the official for corruption.

Trakul's name later appeared on a blacklist as a Pak Chong drug dealer. He was also accused of being a cattle thief.

Another case concerned 17-year-old schoolboy Chaowat Suwantha, who was shot in the head by a group of gunmen in a pickup truck in Huai Thalaeng district on March 12, 2003.

Chaowat's father Weerasak Suwantha said the boy had previously reported to police due to his previous arrest for taking yaba and was about to join a drug rehabilitation programme on March 13.

Weerasak added that a friend of Chaowat who had a similar drug-abuse history and was about to join the same rehab programme was also gunned down while helping his father fix a motorbike.

Kraisak said government officials caused as many as 2,500 deaths during the 2003 war on drugs but relatives of the victims had kept quiet for fear they too would be killed.

He urged Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont to restore the people's faith and to ask the Justice Ministry to accept information about these murders and the Special Investigation Department to re-investigate the cases.

Kraisak added he would invite the Justice Ministry and the National Human Rights Commission to listen to victims' relatives who believed the deaths were caused by government officials. Kraisak also said the war-on-drugs policy by ousted prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra was followed by 2,500 deaths and 7,000 injuries. This practice was later extended to the three southernmost provinces.

Kraisak also called for Thaksin to be punished in the same manner as Saddam Hussein of Iraq.

He said there was sufficient evidence in documents issued by the Interior Ministry to allow government officials to arrest and carry out extrajudicial killings on drug-dealing suspects. There were also letters from district chiefs to the people under suspicion to report to the police or their personal security could not be guaranteed, he added.

However, Kraisak admitted only relatives of 40 cases of the accumulated 1,400 cases of the silent killings had dared to speak up.

"In all these cases, there's no evidence the victims were involved in the drug trade. For this reason, the Justice Ministry could bring this case to the international court against Thaksin, who ordered the killings," he said. In a related case, relatives of a Mathayom 2 student from Chakkarat district complained that while he was fighting with another student group this August, two men in a pickup truck - policemen who were trying to stop the fight - shot at the students.

One bullet hit and seriously injured the boy. When the relatives went to file a complaint at the Chakkarat police station, a police officer asked if the boy was dead yet.

The Nation

[Johpa]

Sondhi could have always swallow his pride and go on with business as usual, as everyone else done before him, yet he choose to confront Thaksin. That is not a sign of greed but convictions and idealism.

Only in the post "Greed is Good" over exuberance of the 1990s can we find those who would argue that greed can manifest itself as "conviction and idealism. Yet you may be correct and perhaps greed, as an ideal and conviction, is the impetus for so many of the world's great religions to embody a need to address and attempt to place limits upon this most human of emotions. My own personal belief, you know, like believing in the tooth fairy or Jesus, is that greed is the Achilles' heel of capitalism.

And yes, I am a bit cynical that there are any current political options that are much different than Taksin, better than Taksin for sure, but better only in degree and not in kind.

[Plus]

I meant extreme socialism as in "extreme sports" and "extreme combat". Fight to death, no mercy.

Instead of levelling healthcare for "haves" and "have nots" Thaksin separated them completely - one system for himself, and another for "plebs" he cared so much about.

The better off part of population will have nothing to do with plebs healthcare, and plebs will never dream of going to private hospitals.

Money spent by the rich through private insurance schemes is not shared with plebs, so they are actually content with the cheap 30 baht scheme, it's a forced pay off to the poor, the cheaper it is, the better. What happens to people under 30 baht scheme is something they don't want to hear about.

That's what I called extreme socialsim, Thaksin's way. NO ONE wants to be on receiving end of it.

Thailand has become an international medical hub with thousands of rich foreigners getting the best treatment available while the "natives" are not even allowed through the doors of these gleaming facilities.

That is what I called extreme socialism.

>>>>>

Re. Sondhi - no one is denying that he is one greedy bastard, but he is a bastard with convictions and ideals. Something Thaksin could not comprehend - that people would value their ideals higher than money and profits.

[Siripon]

Regarding hospitals, The Thaksin government promoted Thailand as a cheap health centre for sick foreigners.

Apart from noting how many private hospitals Thaksin and his lawyer have invested in, it would be interesting to see how many state trained doctors have left the government sector for the lucrative private foreign sector promoted by Thaksin.

I fear it's many, to the detriment of the Thai people.

Typical nationalist hyperbole.

Doctors always aspired to work in the private sector, even without the evil foreigners who might bring much needed money into Thailand, that also benefits educational instituions which educate doctors. Many of those doctors though, and some of the best and most reknown, are still working in public hospitals part time, and even as volonteers in such "evil" organisations such as the Por Teck Tueng.

Nice to read now that at least you admit that Sondhi is not purely altruistic in his efforts, as you have previously claimed.

Look at the figures of the last few years of the brain drain of doctors to private hospitals from the state sector and look at the rise in number of wealthy foreign patients.

As a supporter of the rural poor you should be concerned. Yasothon province promised to fund the training of their own doctors if they promised to stay and work there.

No doubt the foreign doctors will provide some expertise but this can hardly make up for the loss of manpower in state hospitals.

Regarding Sonthi Limtongkun, I never said he was altruistic, that's your word, but he had the guts to go after Thaksin and galvanise enough support to lead to his overthrow. For that alone the Thai people owe him a lot.

[younghusband]

Regarding hospitals, The Thaksin government promoted Thailand as a cheap health centre for sick foreigners.

Apart from noting how many private hospitals Thaksin and his lawyer have invested in, it would be interesting to see how many state trained doctors have left the government sector for the lucrative private foreign sector promoted by Thaksin.

I fear it's many, to the detriment of the Thai people.

Typical nationalist hyperbole.

Doctors always aspired to work in the private sector, even without the evil foreigners who might bring much needed money into Thailand, that also benefits educational instituions which educate doctors. Many of those doctors though, and some of the best and most reknown, are still working in public hospitals part time, and even as volonteers in such "evil" organisations such as the Por Teck Tueng.

Nice to read now that at least you admit that Sondhi is not purely altruistic in his efforts, as you have previously claimed.

Look at the figures of the last few years of the brain drain of doctors to private hospitals from the state sector and look at the rise in number of wealthy foreign patients.

As a supporter of the rural poor you should be concerned. Yasothon province promised to fund the training of their own doctors if they promised to stay and work there.

No doubt the foreign doctors will provide some expertise but this can hardly make up for the loss of manpower in state hospitals.

Regarding Sonthi Limtongkun, I never said he was altruistic, that's your word, but he had the guts to go after Thaksin and galvanise enough support to lead to his overthrow. For that alone the Thai people owe him a lot.

Your hypothesis is wrong.The drain of doctors to the better paid private sector long predates Thaksin, and has nothing to do with the marketing of Thailand as a medical destination for foreigners (which in any case is a relatively small niche market in the context of the health sector as a whole).A related issue which dates back to the 1950's is the unwillingness of Thai doctors to work upcountry, though this is changing as the country has become more prosperous

And on the matter of Thaksin, there is the minor inconvenience to your argument that it is very far from clear that most Thais wanted him overthrown.Let's just remind ourselves once more this was an coup by an unelected junta overthrowing a popularly elected government.You may think the Thai people are wrong headed in their preference and I tend to agree with you, but let's not ignore the facts.

[Siripon]

Regarding hospitals, The Thaksin government promoted Thailand as a cheap health centre for sick foreigners.

Apart from noting how many private hospitals Thaksin and his lawyer have invested in, it would be interesting to see how many state trained doctors have left the government sector for the lucrative private foreign sector promoted by Thaksin.

I fear it's many, to the detriment of the Thai people.

Typical nationalist hyperbole.

Doctors always aspired to work in the private sector, even without the evil foreigners who might bring much needed money into Thailand, that also benefits educational instituions which educate doctors. Many of those doctors though, and some of the best and most reknown, are still working in public hospitals part time, and even as volonteers in such "evil" organisations such as the Por Teck Tueng.

Nice to read now that at least you admit that Sondhi is not purely altruistic in his efforts, as you have previously claimed.

Look at the figures of the last few years of the brain drain of doctors to private hospitals from the state sector and look at the rise in number of wealthy foreign patients.

As a supporter of the rural poor you should be concerned. Yasothon province promised to fund the training of their own doctors if they promised to stay and work there.

No doubt the foreign doctors will provide some expertise but this can hardly make up for the loss of manpower in state hospitals.

Regarding Sonthi Limtongkun, I never said he was altruistic, that's your word, but he had the guts to go after Thaksin and galvanise enough support to lead to his overthrow. For that alone the Thai people owe him a lot.

Your hypothesis is wrong.The drain of doctors to the better paid private sector long predates Thaksin, and has nothing to do with the marketing of Thailand as a medical destination for foreigners (which in any case is a relatively small niche market in the context of the health sector as a whole).A related issue which dates back to the 1950's is the unwillingness of Thai doctors to work upcountry, though this is changing as the country has become more prosperous

And on the matter of Thaksin, there is the minor inconvenience to your argument that it is very far from clear that most Thais wanted him overthrown.Let's just remind ourselves once more this was an coup by an unelected junta overthrowing a popularly elected government.You may think the Thai people are wrong headed in their preference and I tend to agree with you, but let's not ignore the facts.

Doctors have long longed for the rich pastures of the private sector but the marketing of Thailand as a hub for rich, sick, foreigners has certainly exacerbated the situation. The figures of moves of state- trained doctors to the private sector over the last 3 years show the urgency of the problem. In addition many hospitals and doctors have fled the impractical 30 baht scheme, citing the impoosible workload and budget constraints.

Regarding the overthrow of a popularly elected government, this was a government so sure of its popularity and rightfulness it refused to participate in a debate over the Shin sale in Parliament, refused to meet the media to discuss issues, refused to let any dissenting voice appear on TV programmes.

The facts are democracy is more than elections, as you know. If Thaksin was so sure of the legitimacy of his policies, why the fear to be checked?

Done nothing wrong, nothing to hide.

[jumnien]

Thaksin's populist 30 baht health care scheme was indeed unsustainable. Now that the present administration has raised the fee to zero baht, all should be financially well. Wait a minute! Is zero baht less than 30 baht?

The fact remains that Thaksin was bad, bad, bad. The People Against Democracy, Chuwit, Sondhi and the coup leaders are good, good, good.

Right? I just believe what the papers tell me to believe...

[Siripon]

Thaksin's populist 30 baht health care scheme was indeed unsustainable. Now that the present administration has raised the fee to zero baht, all should be financially well. Wait a minute! Is zero baht less than 30 baht?

The fact remains that Thaksin was bad, bad, bad. The People Against Democracy, Chuwit, Sondhi and the coup leaders are good, good, good.

Right? I just believe what the papers tell me to believe...

30 baht scheme, the administrative costs were not worth it, 3 separate papers to be filled in.

The papers are right but so are Plus, SJ, Marshbags, myself and countless others.

The colonel, his young husband, Lukumar and chownah are all wrong.

Believe me....

[Johpa]

Your hypothesis is wrong.The drain of doctors to the better paid private sector long predates Thaksin, and has nothing to do with the marketing of Thailand as a medical destination for foreigners (which in any case is a relatively small niche market in the context of the health sector as a whole).A related issue which dates back to the 1950's is the unwillingness of Thai doctors to work upcountry, though this is changing as the country has become more prosperous

Certainly around the globe medical doctors have long prefrred to live in larger, culturally robust cities rather than practice in rural areas. This is nearly universal and rural health care is a concern even in the western countries. But with health care costs skyrocketing in the west, especially in the US, Thailand, along with India, has only recently been marketing their private health services to foreign patients. Every doctor who moves to a medical facility targeted at foreigners, all of which are located in major cities (Phuket should be seen as a major city) opens up another position in a city-based facility that caters to locals. This new trend most certainly exacerbates the paucity of doctors serving in the rural areas by opening up even more positions in the major cities.

It would be nice if the government would tax this new market with the proceeds going to rural medical care, but I know that will not happen nor would the proceeds make it to the rural areas if such a tax was imposed.

[ColPyat]

Doctors have long longed for the rich pastures of the private sector but the marketing of Thailand as a hub for rich, sick, foreigners has certainly exacerbated the situation. The figures of moves of state- trained doctors to the private sector over the last 3 years show the urgency of the problem. In addition many hospitals and doctors have fled the impractical 30 baht scheme, citing the impoosible workload and budget constraints.

Regarding the overthrow of a popularly elected government, this was a government so sure of its popularity and rightfulness it refused to participate in a debate over the Shin sale in Parliament, refused to meet the media to discuss issues, refused to let any dissenting voice appear on TV programmes.

The facts are democracy is more than elections, as you know. If Thaksin was so sure of the legitimacy of his policies, why the fear to be checked?

Done nothing wrong, nothing to hide.

Oh, shit, impossible workload and budget constraints. Must be horrible that suddenly now all those rural poor actually go to the hospital when they are sick. Wasn't it nice before, when health services were so expensive that these poor only went to Mor Boran.

Poor doctors.

Welcome to the real world.

And by the way, i have not seen the present government abolishing both the 30 Baht scheme and the health tourism. I don't see you and your pals raving against the present government for continuing almost every single Thaksin policy.

And concerning your stated issues of media censorship and transperancy, can you explain me please why now there is even less dissenting voices on TV and even newspapers allowed? I wonder where the public debate is about moving army officers into positions on the boards of state owned companies.

Ah yes, it's the "undercurrents"...

[sriracha john]

Thaksin's populist 30 baht health care scheme was indeed unsustainable. Now that the present administration has raised the fee to zero baht, all should be financially well. Wait a minute! Is zero baht less than 30 baht?

The fact remains that Thaksin was bad, bad, bad. The People Against Democracy, Chuwit, Sondhi and the coup leaders are good, good, good.

Right? I just believe what the papers tell me to believe...

30 baht scheme, the administrative costs were not worth it, 3 separate papers to be filled in.

The papers are right but so are Plus, SJ, Marshbags, myself and countless others.

The colonel, his young husband, Lukumar and chownah are all wrong.

Believe me....

sometimes, the truth is difficult to face for some... even when it's looking "square-ly" at them.

[Johpa]

Oh, <expletive deleted>, impossible workload and budget constraints. Must be horrible that suddenly now all those rural poor actually go to the hospital when they are sick. Wasn't it nice before, when health services were so expensive that these poor only went to Mor Boran.

Many of the poor still depend upon traditional mor boraans and many can still not afford the cost of visiting a doctor, if available, at the local Amphoe unless neighbors "loan" some money or pool some resouces together. In the minority villages up north where I use to live, most residents have had some government subsidized health care for at least 20 years. Certainly not all the rural folks are in such dire economic circumstances, but such folks are not rare, especially amongst the elderly whose children have left the area to find employment.

Of course even those who are well off by rural standards will still visit a mor boraan. My brother-inlaw, a former village headman and owner of a 6-wheel truck (hok lor) insists on visiting a mor boraan for curing his chronic ills. And even my wife had old Lung Moon hold a riak khwaan cremony and Uey Khiow blow some of that old time K'mu medicine (basically chanting over a bottle of water and then spray it) when my son was very young and quite ill after the first hospital visits failed to cause an immediate cure.

[ColPyat]

Many of the poor still depend upon traditional mor boraans and many can still not afford the cost of visiting a doctor, if available, at the local Amphoe unless neighbors "loan" some money or pool some resouces together. In the minority villages up north where I use to live, most residents have had some government subsidized health care for at least 20 years. Certainly not all the rural folks are in such dire economic circumstances, but such folks are not rare, especially amongst the elderly whose children have left the area to find employment.

Of course even those who are well off by rural standards will still visit a mor boraan. My brother-inlaw, a former village headman and owner of a 6-wheel truck (hok lor) insists on visiting a mor boraan for curing his chronic ills. And even my wife had old Lung Moon hold a riak khwaan cremony and Uey Khiow blow some of that old time K'mu medicine (basically chanting over a bottle of water and then spray it) when my son was very young and quite ill after the first hospital visits failed to cause an immediate cure.

Mor Boran have their benefits. Their knowledge of herbs are not to be dismissed. In the AIDS station of my wife's village patients are encouraged to support their treatment with herbal medicine from Mor Boran. And i have seen some strange incidents where patients were cured of deseases that were not cured in hospitals.

Still though, even if far from perfect, increased access to hospitals is a step forward, i believe.

Edited November 25, 2006 by ColPyat

[marshbags]

Thaksin's populist 30 baht health care scheme was indeed unsustainable. Now that the present administration has raised the fee to zero baht, all should be financially well. Wait a minute! Is zero baht less than 30 baht?

The fact remains that Thaksin was bad, bad, bad. The People Against Democracy, Chuwit, Sondhi and the coup leaders are good, good, good.

Right? I just believe what the papers tell me to believe...

30 baht scheme, the administrative costs were not worth it, 3 separate papers to be filled in.

The papers are right but so are Plus, SJ, Marshbags, myself and countless others.

The colonel, his young husband, Lukumar and chownah are all wrong.

Believe me....

sometimes, the truth is difficult to face for some... even when it's looking "square-ly" at them.

From the breaking news in the B.Post........................15:23 Lawyer: Thaksin will stay out

The lawyers statement we,ve all been waiting for.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breaking_news/b...s.php?id=114488

Part quote as follows:-

BREAKING NEWS

Lawyer: Thaksin will stay out

(dpa) - Thailand's ousted former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra will stay out of the kingdom until the political situation has returned to normal, his lawyer said Sunday.

"When the time is right and the situation has returned to normal he might consider a return to Thailand," said Noppodol Pattama.

Thaksin, Thailand's prime minister between 2001 to 2006, was toppled by a military coup on September 19 on charges of rampant corruption and undermining the country's democratic institutions and the monarchy.

He was in New York attending the United Nations General Assembly at the time of the bloodless putsch, and thereafter travelled to London, where his family owns an apartment building.

More recently, Thaksin - a billionaire who made his fortune in Thailand's fledgling telecommunications' sector - has been sighted shopping in Hong Kong and vacationing in Bali.

According to Noppodol, the ousted premier is now residing at an undisclosed spot in China where he is studiously avoiding politics and spending his time reading books and playing golf.

Currently, if Thaksin decided to return to Thailand he could be legally detained by the junta which has kept the country under martial law since the coup, allowing it to arrest anyone deemed a threat to national security.

But the Council of National Security has announced plans to lift martial law next month, in all but seven provinces.

"He has done nothing wrong so he is legally entitled to return to Thailand even with martial law, but the reason he has not returned yet is because he would like to encourage national reconcilation," Noppodol said.

Thailand's military-appointed Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont has said it would be best for Thaksin to come back after a general election is held at the end of next year, according to the junta's time frame.

"His family want him to quit politics," Noppodol told a press conference.

Meanwhile, Noppodol will be busy in coming weeks dealing with Thai revenue department, which has announced that Thaksin's son and eldest daughter, Panthongtae and Pinthongta, must pay at least 5.8 billion baht (157 million US dollars) in taxes on their purchase of 329 million shares in the family-run Shin Corp. They bought the shares from their offshore company, Ample Rich, at one baht (2 cents) a share on January 20.

Unquote.

What an anti climax to what the lawyer alledged " he would provide material to provide a clear answer to tax liabilities " ect. ect. ect.

I await the reactions from our T.V panelists who will provide their usual realistic views.

While the defenders of the Thaksin family and their cronies, will continue in their unrealistic take, in spite of the mounting list of pending enquiries / corruption and cronyism, relating to his years in office.

It sure doesn,t look good now does it ????????

You can bet your 25 satang he won,t come back, not while the present authorities have any say in the matter and unless he,s Hudini theres not a chance he / they will clear all that,s stacked against them, even in Thailand.

Regarding the lawyer, you can bet another 25 satang he,s sure in for a busy time trying to wriggle out of it all.

At least he acknowledges it will all finish up in court which is a different tune they are singing now.

marshbags

Edited November 26, 2006 by marshbags

[ColPyat]

What an anti climaxto what the lawyer alledged he would do.

Not unexpected though is it to all non beleivers.

I await the reactions from our T.V panelists along with the defenders of the Thaksin families mounting list of pending enquiries relating to his years in office.

marshbags

I wonder though why, if everybody is so keen to bring Thaksin to court, all, including Thaksin himself, agree upon that it is best for him to stay out of the country until the situation "normalised"?

Is it only me, or is there the slight possibility that, regradless of present posturing, Thaksin will never be dragged in front of a court, and nobody who matters actually intends to do so? And that all is only smoke and mirrors?

[marshbags]

What an anti climaxto what the lawyer alledged he would do.

Not unexpected though is it to all non beleivers.

I await the reactions from our T.V panelists along with the defenders of the Thaksin families mounting list of pending enquiries relating to his years in office.

marshbags

I wonder though why, if everybody is so keen to bring Thaksin to court, all, including Thaksin himself, agree upon that it is best for him to stay out of the country until the situation "normalised"?

Is it only me, or is there the slight possibility that, regradless of present posturing, Thaksin will never be dragged in front of a court, and nobody who matters actually intends to do so? And that all is only smoke and mirrors?

You forgot about the extra judicial killings CP, this one will finish up in an international court if it,s not dealt with in Thailand and HRW " WILL " have their say on the matter if it isn,t

If you look my post over you will notice an edited version is now in place.

Don,t know how it happens but i was correcting spelling and grammar when you posted your reply.

Thaksin doesn,t have a choice, even from his past influence and he,s much to devious to put himself in the hangmans noose as we all know.

This is his only reason and let,s forget all the stuff about reconciliation.

Just what is the meaning of normalisation as you see it.

Those days are over regarding the CEO style of governing and you should have the sense to realise they will never come back again.

Things may not become perfect but they will change for better governing and there WILL be effective checks and balances in place to stop people like Thaksin exploiting the rule of law.

In my humble opinion of course.

marshbags

Edited November 26, 2006 by marshbags

[ColPyat]

Things may not become perfect but they will change for better governing and there WILL be effective checks and balances in place to stop people like Thaksin exploiting the rule of law.

I have more than serious doubts there will be better governing, effective checks and balances anytime soon in Thailand.

After '92 everybody said that there will never be a military coup anymore in Thailand.

After '97 everybody said that we have now the best possible constitution that will lead Thailand into a modern and democratic society.

And now everybody says (lacking a free press ) that this coup will lead to democracy.

I believe it when i see it. And so far, i do only see the opposite.

A question i have asked several times, and that still went unanswered: how do you explain yourself that the present "reform" government devilises Thaksin, though has continued with almost all of TRT policies so far, and introduced a few even more insane ones, such as taking an example at Pakisthan to solve the problems down south?

Where is the bile on the board over the insanities over the Tom Yam Gung stalls? Half of Thailand laughs about it, but here...

Where are the complaints over the much stiffer media censorship of the present government than even under Thaksin, who was bad enough already?

Edited November 26, 2006 by ColPyat

[hammered]

What an anti climaxto what the lawyer alledged he would do.

Not unexpected though is it to all non beleivers.

I await the reactions from our T.V panelists along with the defenders of the Thaksin families mounting list of pending enquiries relating to his years in office.

marshbags

I wonder though why, if everybody is so keen to bring Thaksin to court, all, including Thaksin himself, agree upon that it is best for him to stay out of the country until the situation "normalised"?

Is it only me, or is there the slight possibility that, regradless of present posturing, Thaksin will never be dragged in front of a court, and nobody who matters actually intends to do so? And that all is only smoke and mirrors?

Hi Colpyat

I think we can all work out why human rights activists are urging Thailand to ratify the ICC.

[ColPyat]

Hi Colpyat

I think we can all work out why human rights activists are urging Thailand to ratify the ICC.

Well, it would be laudable, and i truly would love to see Thaksin, and anybody else who played a major decision making role there prosecuted for the drug war killings.

But i believe there are more than just pro Thaksin fractions who would have a bit of a problem with such a ratification. One problem is that if the drug war killings would be prosecuted in earnest, than there are a few difficulties.

Thaksin has to be convicted on testimony and evidence, and not just on rumor and emotion. Difficult.

Far bigger problem is, that very possibly more than just the evil Thaksin will have a few issues to deal with there.

And if we are just at it, would be nice if Suchinda, and whoever was behind Suchinda would be prosecuted as well...

Edited November 26, 2006 by ColPyat

[hammered]

Hi Colpyat

I think we can all work out why human rights activists are urging Thailand to ratify the ICC.

Well, it would be laudable, and i truly would love to see Thaksin, and anybody else who played a major decision making role there prosecuted for the drug war killings.

But i believe there are more than just pro Thaksin fractions who would have a bit of a problem with such a ratification. One problem is that if the drug war killings would be prosecuted in earnest, than there are a few difficulties.

Thaksin has to be convicted on testimony and evidence, and not just on rumor and emotion. Difficult.

Far bigger problem is, that very possibly more than just the evil Thaksin will have a few issues to deal with there.

And if we are just at it, would be nice if Suchinda, and whoever was behind Suchinda would be prosecuted as well...

The ratification of the ICC may just happen by default as there are going tobe all kind of trade ofs between the factions. This may seem like a an easy an easily avoidable bone to throw the human rights people and the international community. I doubt it will lead to much right now but will certainly open up interesting times in the slightly more distant future.

[sriracha john]

I'm no big believer in polls here, but it would seem, even with a margin of error, that ol' Thakky's popularity is severely floundering.

That despite what some here have professed to be the Northerners' and Northeasterners' undying, never-ending, just-chomping-at-the-bit-to-go-conquer-Bangkok psyche, that these folks belief in Thaksin is changing as quickly as a soi dog darting across Sukhumwit.

Anyway, here's a nice bit of reality to help uncloud the haze they create:

Thaksin's popular rating lowest in six years

The popular rating of former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra has reached the lowest level in six years, an opinion survey has found.

The survey by the Assumption University found that Thaksin received a popular rating of of 15.8 per cent compared with 70.5 per cent of his successor, Surayud Chulanont.

The survey was carried out by the university among 4,195 voters from 18 provinces during November 18 to 25. The results were announced Sunday.

The remaining 13.7 per cent of the respondents had no comment as to the question whom they favour between Surayud and Thaksin.

Breaking down to regions, it was found that Surayud got less than 50 per cent of support from respondents from northern provinces, which are considered strongholds of Thaksin and the Thai Rak Thai Party. The survey found that 48.8 per cent of the respondents favoured Surayud, compared with 14.6 per cent who supported Thaksin. The remaining 36.6 per cent had no comment.

But Thaksin received the strongest support from northeastern provinces, where 30.1 per cent of respondents favoured him, compared with 57.2 per cent of support for Surayud. The remaining 12.7 per cent made no choice.

The Nation

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A 4:1 against ratio in the North and a 2:1 ratio against in the Northeast. Thaksin's as popular in these areas now as a King cobra in a primary school classroom.

[sriracha john]

Additional findings of the Assumption survey:

63 percent of respondents in the poll said the former telecoms tycoon should retire from politics while 8.1 percent said he should attempt a political comeback.

- Reuters

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People don't want him back and now he's said he won't be back...

Hopefully now we can get back to regaining what was lost during his regime.