Crackdown On "back-to-back" Tourist Visas

[underworld]

Stay on topic all you coming with the same old questions again and again. Most answers you can find in the general Visa articles on this website.

And for the topic: A comment like this from the immigration will only become a problem for certain foreigners here the day the really start implementing it! That is yet to be seen! Then, of course, the many people that are in fact staying here without being able to fulfil the official demands will get problems.

I just entered Thailand through Poipet and did this for the third time and I am on a tourist Visa for many months - and nothing whatsoever happened.

Information like this from the immigration is of no value to anybody as long as it is not being enforced. It is just intended to give the impression of strict rules. But this is Thailand, there are ways around it and all parties are involved in that...

Just look at the new nightlife curfew, what happened to that?

[axl]

Retired in your 40's with lots of money!

I feel for you. You have big problems!!

You still can't figure how to get round this one????

Get a non-imm.

I am in the same fortunate situation but the Thai Ambassy in Zurich and Kuala Lumpur told me I have to be 55 years old to qualify for a Non Immigrant-O-Visa. Could you ploease tell me how to apply?

Retired in your 40's with lots of money!

I feel for you. You have big problems!!

You still can't figure how to get round this one????

Get a non-imm.

I am in the same fortunate situation but the Thai Ambassy in Zurich and Kuala Lumpur told me I have to be 55 years old to qualify for a Non Immigrant-O-Visa. Could you ploease tell me how to apply?

[mbkudu]

What impact will Thailand's expected enforcement of its immigration laws have on English language schools such as AUA, which (illegally) require newly hired teachers to undergo a probationary period without a work permit during which they must do visa runs? Take a look at their website where they openly state this illegal policy. At AUA, some teachers of many years service still do visa runs. The Thai Immigration Department doesn't seem to mind. Why I don't know.

Perhaps Thailand's Immigration Department should look further up the food chain to well established businesses such as AUA in deciding how to effectively and efficiently enforce its laws, regulations and their underlying policies?

Comments anyone at AUA or elsewhere?

I have never worked at the AUA but have friends who have. Evidently they work within a tight budget and are only willing to go through the costly and time consuming work permit process for full time teachers. This is typical of most schools. Freelance English teachers are in a unique position because they usually work several part time jobs to make a good living. Several part time jobs=no work permit. If the government is serious about this and not just farting in the wind as usual, then these teachers if unmarried to Thais, could have problems.

How the AUA can state openly that they are violating labor laws is another thing all together. Why they would openly state that, I have no idea.

[thaimee]

Thaimee continue's on from frogmo1 and mbkudu posts

What impact will Thailand's expected enforcement of its immigration laws have on English language schools such as AUA, which (illegally) require newly hired teachers to undergo a probationary period without a work permit during which they must do visa runs? Take a look at their website where they openly state this illegal policy. At AUA, some teachers of many years service still do visa runs. The Thai Immigration Department doesn't seem to mind. Why I don't know.

Perhaps Thailand's Immigration Department should look further up the food chain to well established businesses such as AUA in deciding how to effectively and efficiently enforce its laws, regulations and their underlying policies?

Comments anyone at AUA or elsewhere?

I have never worked at the AUA but have friends who have. Evidently they work within a tight budget and are only willing to go through the costly and time consuming work permit process for full time teachers. This is typical of most schools. Freelance English teachers are in a unique position because they usually work several part time jobs to make a good living. Several part time jobs=no work permit. If the government is serious about this and not just farting in the wind as usual, then these teachers if unmarried to Thais, could have problems.

How the AUA can state openly that they are violating labor laws is another thing all together. Why they would openly state that, I have no idea.

If we must take seriously Thai Immigration Laws, then let's take the example of frogmo1 and mbkudu posts as examples pointing out the falsities, ironies, wish-wash law's. Isn't it ironic that a work permit asks of employee to earn at least fifty thousand baht yet most needed native speaking English teachers don't earn that. So where and when will these laws be tightened up, if on paper they make as much sense as ''Familymart giving you a straw to drink your Singha Beer''?

So bitch all you want believers/ non believers about us monthly habitual's but we are all in the same boat as nothing is concerete as to make distinctions when no one, neither lawyer nor sain person can clarify visa regulations and distinctions.

Thaimee.

[possom]

can ANYBODY shed any light on the definition of back to back ??????? how long a stay outside thailand is sufficient for the 3 entry rule to start again ??? any information please ??

[frogmo1]

Whether AUA's budget is really "tight" or not is a matter only of speculation. AUA does not disclose how it allocates its very substantial income, although it has been mentioned that there is a rather mysterious "relocation" or "building fund" of some sort.

AUA hires teachers only on a part-time basis, although its enrollment is sufficiently large such that it could hire teachers (especially those committed to long-term service) on a full-time basis. That might solve the 50,000 baht wage issue that "thaimee" mentions. However, such teachers also would be entitled to a variety of benefits under the Thai labour laws that part-timers don't get (and may not be entitled to -- I don't know).

As for the work permit process being time consuming and expensive, I disagree. AUA maintains a full time Thai staff member to handle work permit applications, which he does with remarkable alacrity and efficiency.

Compliance by foreign corporations with the labor laws is strictly enforced. I find it a bit incongruous that AUA, which represents itself as the largest and oldest ESL business in Thailand, not only does not comply but flaunts its non-compliance on its website.

What country is this?

[Orion76]

Teachers are an exception from the minimum 50k salary requirement because if teachers were required to be paid 50,000 per month it would put too much of a burden on the education system or they wouldn't be able to hire foreign teachers at all.

[thaimee]

Time Out Again

“You are only allowed 3 entries in a row on a Tourist Visa. After the third time you must leave the Kingdom and will not be allowed to return for 6 months”.

Q1: If travelling outside Thailand to Malaysia, would this cancel previous entries?

Q2: Is transfer the only means of highlighting how a person exists in Thailand? Would a million, 2 million baht's suffice to prove casual existence?

Sorry. How akward am I? Thaimee.

[chuckygobyebye]

Hang on, has anyone confirmed any of this because one or two things don't ring true.

Why do they need a cental system to check if you have three back-to-back tourist visas? The stamps are in your passport and they've been checking passports very thouroughly recently.

What the ###### is thaiimigration.com?

Is this news reporting or scaremongering? Can anyone check any of the details of this claim?

Also, how do they define back-to-back? If I arrive in Thailand, fly down to KL for a few days, take in Ankor Wat and then go through Laos, do I get refused when I come back?

[MekhongKurt]

I'm hesitant to speak on visa issues, as muddled and controversial as they are.

It may help to remember 2 things: the notion of "absolute" versus one of "discretion." For example, the law says to have a retirement visa, one must be at least 50 years old (a change made 2 or 3 years ago, when the minimum age dropped from 55), and have either 800,000 baht brought in from outside Thailand and held in a Thai bank, or a pension or other [apparently] life-long source of income -- again, abroad, then transferred into a Thai bank -- of at least 65,000 baht/month, or any combination of the 2 resulting in one having at least 800,000 baht/year from outside sources coming into the Kingdom. I've seen an English translation of this from Immigration here in Bangkok, and I asked an attorney friend (not in immigration) to check with one of his lawyer friends specializing in immigration law, and my friend reported back his friend confirmed those are indeed the condtions -- in writing.

Yet I personally know people who have received retirement visas without meeting the amount requirements as far as deposited in Thai banks. They did, however, meet the minimum requirements. One acquaintance showed a bank account here in which he had depostied the then-equivalent of about 80,000 baht in U.S. dollars -- but he also produced ATM receipts showing he withdrew more than the 65,000 baht per month and had been doing so for about 2 years from an account in a U.S. bank (his branch physically located in the U.S.), withdrawing it from ATM's here in Thailand. He got a retirement visa in short order, and a new one with equally little trouble a year later. Clearly, the immigration officer reviewing his case felt the foreigner was indeed meeting the spirit of the law, if not the letter of it -- an ATM withdrawal isn't a direct deposit into a Thai bank, after all.

I don't know anyone who has gotten a retirement visa for the first time recently here in Bangkok; though I know a lot of people with retirement and marriage visas, they all got them at least a few years ago, one or two having had theirs for 30-40 years. I've heard that Bangkok is being far stricter than provincial offices in enforcing the letter of the law.

But even in Bangkok discretionary enforcement is possible. About2-1/2 years ago, I was out of time, period, including the extensions of my tourist visa, except for a final 7-day one. I could have left within that 7 days, but to have done so would have been enormously inconvenient. If I could stay 2 more weeks, the problem would be resolved and I could depart as required. I explained the situation to a visa officer, and he called upstairs, then told me to go talk to one of his superiors. I did so, and the guy was really nice. I already had an air ticket for 14 days later, and showed him that. He told me no problem, that he would grant me the extra 7 days, and even said he agreed that was far easier all the way around than for me to have to leave smack in the middle of some business then try to rush back. Was his granting me the extra week legal? -- I haven't the faintest, though I assumed then (and do now) he had the authority to do so.

Related to all this is consistency of information. While the visa officers with whom I've spoken in recent years, especially the past year, have seemed to be genuinely trying their dead-level best to give me correct and timely information, sometimes information on the same point from more than one officer has been inconsistent or even outright contradictory. I don't know why that is, only that it is. Even so, in my own experience (though not everyone's), I've found it generally best to ask at Immigration what you need to do, then do it. You could, conceivably, meet a different officer the nexdt visit who gives you a different set of hoops to jump through, but I have no answer for why or how to avoid it.

It no doubt will be of interest to some here what I learned last Friday when I was at Immigration getting an extension of my 60-day tourist visa. I asked my buddy there, who is not a visa officer, if he could find out if people already in the retirement or marriage visa loop will be grandfathered in when the new regulations go into effect July 10, 2004. He told me he had already checked with his buddies over in the visa section, and they had told him no, the requirements will be uniform across the board. As part of my extension process he walked me upstairs; while I was waiting, he chatted with an NCO I recognized as a Senior Sergeant Major and a lady I think to be a captain. I didn't know *what* they were talking about, as I don't speak or understand Thai, but when my friend and I left, he told me that was the office with the final say regarding the matter, and his friends there had confirmed what his other buddies had said -- come July 10th, even people long in the loop will have to meet the 800,000 baht in the bank requirement or the one to show at least 65,000 baht a month.

How rigorously that will be enforced in an entirely different question -- one leading, inevitably, back to discretionary authority, thereby restarting the circle, which is endless. . . .

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Hang on, has anyone confirmed any of this because one or two things don't ring true.

Why do they need a cental system to check if you have three back-to-back tourist visas? The stamps are in your passport and they've been checking passports very thouroughly recently.

What the ###### is thaiimigration.com?

Is this news reporting or scaremongering? Can anyone check any of the details of this claim?

Also, how do they define back-to-back? If I arrive in Thailand, fly down to KL for a few days, take in Ankor Wat and then go through Laos, do I get refused when I come back?

It is what it says it is a Thai Immigration website. The ' news ' comes from an Immigration officer.

[thaimee]

Non-Immigrant 'O's, 'B's, Retirees, Extensions...

come July 10th, even people long in the loop will have to meet the 800,000 baht in the bank requirement or the one to show at least 65,000 baht a month.

Q: to reiterate the above figures, are we saying for back-to-back visa runs, it would be acceptable if you showed 800,000 baht in an account or 65,000 baht month transfers?

Yes, i'm confused but if a toursit can prove he has funds why is it considered that most people transfer monthly and not by other means of withdrawal? Who is running this show?

(90 days reporting) I remember the time i went to pattaya immigration to inform them where i lived and they agreed i could sign my name on the short list, but the funny thing was my first question to an officer was should i do this and he said 'no' and another said 'yes'. After that incident i shan't be going down there ever again and or purchase rumoured available visa's which are illegal!

Thaimee.

[possom]

can we please stay on the thread ???????? i.e. back to back tourist visas !!!!!!!!!! i ask AGAIN . - - - can ANYBODY shed any light on what is considered back to back ??? how long outside thailand is considered long enough for the 3 entrys to expire and start again ????

[thaimee]

yes possom, i would like to know too! i asked the same question about three or four posts earlier.

Q: If travelling to Malaysia or even staying for some two months, would this trip suffice to cancel previous entries in a holders passport so that we may resume residing in Thailand confident of our position?

Is there a lawyer in the house?

Thaimee.

[possom]

pleased to see someone else is still on thread and actively seeking solutions !!!!!

[Guest chingy]

people talk to much, me myself is like the rest of you, i also have to do my visa like every one else, there are other people that are reading this forum, isn't it better to keep it quiet, if it works don't fix it, do what you think is right, do what you think is best, why do you people always make a big deal out of it, the louder it get the more they pay attention to it, the system work the way it want to work, if you are planning to stay in thailand for a long period of time learn to be humble, they have their way of doing things, you all wouldn't like it if they get upset about certain issue, learn how to keep low profile, go with the flo, if they don't ask don't answer, big mouth will always end up no good, like i said there are other that read the forum.

-just my opinion no need to get upset-

[craftwork]

If you go to the Thai immigration website you can leave your questions there.

Just put the address in your browser (see the bottom of the first post in this thread), then go to the webboard at the same site.

You might have to register to leave a question; I don't know.

Someone had already asked this question when I went there last night. Don't know if they have answered it yet.

[PREM-R]

chuckygobyebye Posted on Tue 2004-04-27  What the ###### is thaiimigration.com?

This is the regiestered information for thaiimmigration.com:

organization: NongKhai Immigration Thailand

owner: Sorrapol Payoongveeranoi

It would appear that thaiimmigration.com is official but not from 'head office' in Bangkok but from the regional office in Nong Khai. The information on the site may not therefore be the same for all immigration offices and all border crossings.

I have used the Nong Khai immigration office many times and always found them helpful but they may not be interpreting the 'law' in the same way as other offices around the country. When I cross the border at the Friendship Bridge I always ask them what the latest policy is on 'walkers' and every time I get the same reply 'no problem', but as always, TIT things may change at any time.

[thaimee]

Thank you PREM-R for your input. another piece of the jigsaw solved. no one here is making waves, we only wish to be educated about uncertanties and feel better when clued up. nearly there..

Q: If travelling to Malaysia or even staying two months, would this trip suffice to cancel previous entries in a holders passport so that we may resume residing in Thailand confident of our position?

and if someone could answer possoms previous post it would be apprciated.

Thank you for your time. Thaimee.

[ChiangMaiThai]

Until it is enforced, it means nothing. I'm not sure why they need this central computer system to figure out if you've made three consecutive trips to the border. Seems like a quick glance at your passport would reveal that. As I've said all along, I know many people who go to the border every month. When they all start being deported, I will report it here. Until then, it seems like more rumours to me.

[possom]

i would prefer to be aware of THE RULES , before they are enforced upon me !!. we all know people in this situation and understand the difference between rules on paper and enforced rules . I for one do not intend to be left with no choice but to leave for 6 months .. as thaimee rightly points out ,we are merely seeking to be educated about uncertainties .when you start reporting here (chiang mai thai ) , about people being deported , it may be too llate for some people !!

[mitmig]

Dear ùnbiasbob iff its not suffice I buy a couple off these elite cards.

thank you

[falangman78]

I just got this from Mr Stick - regarding this.

"....This is very real indeed... I can tell you that at some border posts they are cracking down on this big time! I have heard stories form border crossings into Laos, Cambodia and Myanmar that this is very real. Looks like they are finalyl going to do it. Time to get married?!...."

I have some questions, I am new to this forum but would really appreciate any help.

I have been visa running on a tourist visa (one month given on the border) for 8 months. I can prove that I have income from the UK. I have some investments in my parents name and they transfer me about 30,000 baht per month. This is paid in cash to my bank in the UK and is not transferred from another account. I also do some work for a university in London. This involves spending about 10 hours a week online and answering emails through the university computer system The university pay roll pays me to my bank account in the UK. This brings me about 24,000 baht a month. Total income from the UK is about 54,000 a month.

I am unsure if this work I am doing for the university in UK is illegal, is it considered “working in Thailand”?

Do you think it is a good idea that I show the immigration officials a copy of my bank statement so show what I am doing? There is no income shown form the flowers business on it but obviously the university payroll payments show up very clearly as “Queen Marys University London”.

I have seen a number of ads in the Bangkok post for companies organising one year visas for about 10,000 Baht. Can I get this without having a proper job in Thailand?

I am concerned that if I am asked to leave Thailand (apparently you get 5-10 days to leave) I will have real problems if I try to get a proper visa after I have been expelled for 6 months. Perhaps its time to visit little Laos for 6 months, wash my passport, go to the embassy in Vientiane and hopefully get back in Thailand after 6 months having not been asked to leave and having a new passport. By this time my contract for the university in London would have finished and I would need to find some kind of official employment in Thailand anyway.

Another option would be to print my bank statement from internet banking, copy it into a word processor and make a few amendments…I imagine if I get busted for this I would be in a lot of trouble. I doubt that immigration have the authority to call my bank and access my account details. I cold show them my contract from the university in London but again it seems to be a very grey area working. Is a tourist on holiday logging into their work email breaking any employment laws in Thailand?

Someone told me that I could go to Malaysia, visit the Thai embassy in Penang and make out I am a photographer, journalist, researcher or doing some other freelance work. This would get me the non-immigrant visa and I don’t think I need to get a work permit. Would theyu accept this given I have about 8 months worth of visa running stamps in my passport?

Another option would be to get a job as a part time teacher but I understand most places expect you to work illegally with tourist visa unless you work full time. Maybe I could get a full time teaching job with a cowboy company like ECC, get the visa and then leave? That would keep me in Thai for a year. The problem here is that my passport is really full of stamps and this may cause some problems.

This situation is crazy. I am bringing in 50,000 baht a month. I spend all my money in Thailand and have no plans to take money out of the country if/when I leave. But it seems they now want all the foreigners out. I can tell you there is going to be a shortage of English teachers in Thailand. I can see companies like ECC getting into financial difficulties having to fork out $$$$ for visas and work permits for their teachers.

Ultimatley I want to live in Thailand "long time" but I am in a position to do some travelling. Do you know much about laws in Cambodia or Vietnam? Can I stay over there for a long time, maybe bribe someone to get me a 6 month visa? If I enter Cambodia on the 1 month visa where can I visa run to from there without entering Thailand? If I live in Cambodia how can I get to an ATM machine?

Any advice or information about other people you know about in a similar position would be greatly appreciated.

[Sunbelt Asia]

" am unsure if this work I am doing for the university in UK is illegal, is it considered “working in Thailand”?"

From www.thaiimmigration.com their response to a guy who is married and not "working" in Thailand.

What is pointed out is, that if you are below 50 (working age) you must prove a work income from abroad of not less than p.t. THB 200.000,00 / after 9th July 2004 = THB 400.000,00 yearly. (The 400K not actual in you case though, we hope).

And that’s exactly what you are doing. Okay, you are saying that you don’t work at all, but you are also claiming that you are not receiving pension or any kind of security money.

Hmmm, now Immigration could be rude and ask, “Excuse us sir, but what are you doing then?” Well, Immigration doesn’t. Why should they? It's not their business. They use this logic instead: “He doesn’t have a pension, but he got income from abroad, so he is of course working”. Whether your work is maintaining investments, computer consultant/programmer, or walking people’s dogs (long distance) doesn’t matter. You are doing something, making good money abroad, bringing them in and spending them in Thailand; just the type of foreigner Thailand love and appreciate to welcome .

So, you go on doing things exactly as you are doing now, it’s 100% according to the book (the rules and regulations of the Immigration Bureau). You don't have to prove anything else. No new rule for you. Business as usual.

http://www.thaiimmigration.com/inv/index.php?showtopic=49

Source...www.thaimmigration.com

"I have seen a number of ads in the Bangkok post for companies organising one year visas for about 10,000 Baht. Can I get this without having a proper job in Thailand?"

We advertise for 7,200 Baht in the BKKpost but use the legal methods to get the visas for our clients like anyone else advertising. Noone is "selling" one year visas that advertises in the BKKpost.

"Someone told me that I could go to Malaysia, visit the Thai embassy in Penang and make out I am a photographer, journalist, researcher or doing some other freelance work. This would get me the non-immigrant visa and I don’t think I need to get a work permit. Would theyu accept this given I have about 8 months worth of visa running stamps in my passport?"

This is bad advice.

"Another option would be to get a job as a part time teacher but I understand most places expect you to work illegally with tourist visa unless you work full time. Maybe I could get a full time teaching job with a cowboy company like ECC, get the visa and then leave? That would keep me in Thai for a year. The problem here is that my passport is really full of stamps and this may cause some problems."

Not a good plan. The visa is tied to your work permit. If you leave ECC, you have 7 days to turn in your work permit and then 7 days to leave the country.

This situation is crazy. I am bringing in 50,000 baht a month. I spend all my money in Thailand and have no plans to take money out of the country if/when I leave. But it seems they now want all the foreigners out. I can tell you there is going to be a shortage of English teachers in Thailand. I can see companies like ECC getting into financial difficulties having to fork out $$$$ for visas and work permits for their teachers.

If you work for the government then for teachers, the financial requirement doesn't apply.

www.sunbeltasia.com

[thaimee]

Thanx Sunbelt Asia.

Yes Sir, how could one extend one's stay in Thailand without contravening any of the restrictions finalising back-2-back visa's? Simply put, please help out?

Thaimee.

[unbiasbob]

Dear ùnbiasbob iff its not suffice I buy a couple off these elite cards.

thank you

yeah load up on those elite cards when they go on sale

[unbiasbob]

Until it is enforced, it means nothing. I'm not sure why they need this central computer system to figure out if you've made three consecutive trips to the border. Seems like a quick glance at your passport would reveal that. As I've said all along, I know many people who go to the border every month. When they all start being deported, I will report it here. Until then, it seems like more rumours to me.

When I went to PP to get 60 day visa in Jan, the embassy had a printout of my entries and exits to and from thailand for the past 15 months I had been visa running. They did the same for a geezer who has been visa running for a few years but was short the pension amount and cash for retirement visa. They had us wait around all day and councelled us separately. The official told me to get non imm visa in penang or laos. I told him I did not meet requirements due to age and not working. He tried to tell me that age did not matter and that I could get visa with 400k in a thai bank. He said go to imm in bkk to find out what docs were necessary to bring to penang. the guy did not know what he was talking about, clearly

[Sassie]

"One example: In most non-dictatorship, non-third-world countries if you marry a national, you can obtain permanent residency within a year. Not so in Thailand, unless you're a foreign female."

I don't mean to sound daft, but what exactly does the above mean? I am a female farang intending to marry my Thai boyfriend in Sept/Oct. I am Canadian and work and live in Canada. However my guy and I are designing and building a home (his momma gave us the land) and I would of course love to (uh, need to) be with him permanently.

Can someone please tell me what is required in terms of a visa(s), financial requirements (I am presently the high income earner) and the like. I asked my guy but his answer was “minimal” and based on his dead farang step-dad’s experience so I am thinking that of course there is more to it (new rules etc. and I wanna be on the up and up).

I do read the visa rules but I get confused, my head spins and then them words are all over the screen, and I am back to square one trying to figure the stuff out again.

Thanks for any info. Love the forum. Read more than I write but things are getting serious now...(and sorry if this is the incorrect forum).

sassie

[thaihome]

I have been living in China for the past seven years

Yeah, I live in China too, and in my office there is a sign (in Chinese and English) posted above our coffee machine:

"No spitting in wastebasket, go to toilet to spit"

Need I say more?

TH

[thaimee]

I would like to know how to by pass restrictions placed on the habitual back-2-back visa goer's without abusing any visa laws?

If I went to Malaysia for two months, would I render earlier visa runs Void there by allowing me to apply for further extensions without any undue worry?

Thaimee.