Running FTTH cable into an existing high-rise condo room

[wpcoe]

I've recently bought a (used) condo in a building that will run fibre optic cable from an ISP's access point into my condo room.  I understand that an ISP will only run the fibre up until the condo building wall at ground level but that I can pay the condo maintenance guys to collaborate with the ISP's guys and run a direct run of fiber up to my condo room, which sounds delightful.  If it's as it seems.  <fingers crossed>

 

Has anybody here had such an an installation in a high-rise condo that can give first-hand experience with the process?

 

My main question at this time is how they run the fibre once it's to my room.  Do they run it across and down the surface of the wall?  (I assume they do.)  I'd like the fibre to run through some already-embedded conduit in the condo wall, e.g. remove the telephone wire and RJ45 jack and use that.  Does that sound like something they could be expected to manage?  I'm going to do a renovation where the entire ceiling will be ripped out and would give them access at the top.  Or, if I don't want a wire snaking across/down the wall, should I have the reno guys rip open a new channel down the (traditional red brick with render) wall into which a new conduit can be placed?  (One of the dustiest and noisiest things I've ever experienced in a reno.)

 

Or (this may be way out on a limb?) could I have them terminate and install the "modem" (is that what the device is called with fiber?) above the ceiling, with an access panel beneath it and rely on WiFi for all internet access?

[mtls2005]

The ISP will have to do a site survey, and then they will make a recommendation. They've been there, and done that, so will know the best option.

 

What floor are you on?

 

Typically fiber would be terminated somewhere in the ground floor, and existing or new copper used for the run up the riser, aka FTTB, using VDSL2.

 

I wouldn't recommend installing any powered networking equipment in the ceiling.

[wpcoe]

3 hours ago, mtls2005 said:

The ISP will have to do a site survey, and then they will make a recommendation. They've been there, and done that, so will know the best option.

 

What floor are you on?

 

Typically fiber would be terminated somewhere in the ground floor, and existing or new copper used for the run up the riser, aka FTTB, using VDSL2.

 

I wouldn't recommend installing any powered networking equipment in the ceiling.

 

I'm on the 7th floor.  The condo building has a web site for owners, and a couple folks said that the ISPs will run a fibre line into the condo room.  Maybe they're mis-informed?  I've been told by several folks (in person, not online) not to put too much stock in what the gals in the front office will tell me.  I've often gotten mis-information (and heaps of bad attitude) from the front-line staff in ISP offices, including True and 3BB.  This shouldn't be rocket science, but I guess if I can get each ISP to send someone out to "survey," I can make an informed choice.

 

Why would you not recommend installing any powered networking equipment in the ceiling?  Heat problem, or something else? 

 

There's about a foot of free space above a wardrobe cabinet.  I guess I could attach it to the underside of the ceiling there?

[mtls2005]

Every building.site.install represents different challenges, and while it is not "rocket science" it is both scientific and artistic. Running copper in the riser is often the best solution, and will not impact performance. 

 

Access, power, heat and the ISP's general installation guidelines will prevent any installation in a ceiling. Might they do it for you? Maybe, but don't expect a lot of post-installation support if you have issues. 

[wpcoe]

I've twice had the skilled artisans aggressively drill through the front wall of rented townhouses resulting in chunks of render flying off the opposite side, right down to exposed red brick.  And, no offer to fix the damage even when, as in the photo, it was the interior living room wall and highly visible:

 

They were shocked that I cared.  Twice.  At different townhouses.

 

I agree that each site is unique and requires careful consideration and some advance planning and calculation.  But, this is Thailand and having had such shoddy work, and other aesthetics-be-damned installations, I'm trying to find out in practical terms how it can/should/will go.  I care about how the final result will look.  Some cowboy installers, not so much.

 

I'm not much concerned how they get the fibre/cable to my unit -- other co-owners assure me it's routine to do it -- I'm focused on how they will route the fibre/cable once they're in my unit.

 

Maybe I should go with suspending the modem/router from the ceiling above the bedroom wardrobe cabinet?  Or, can they be accommodating and skilled enough to use the embedded conduit currently used for the phone line?  (I will not want/need a phone line.)    

[mtls2005]

I've had 3BB (DSL and fiber) and AIS (AirNET, fiber), True (Cable TV, DSL) install quite a few times. Always been thoughtful, careful, clean, neat.

 

Yes, the embedded conduit can/will be used, if it is as I suspect. The existing copper wire could most definitely be utilized to deliver your "fiber" internet service using VDSL2. This would be the optimal solution, without the advantages of seeing the actual site. The VDSL2 modem and any router would be ideally situated near that existing outlet, or within a few meters.

 

Again, whichever ISP you choose will survey your site and offer up the best solution. They've done this a few more times than you.

[wpcoe]

Thanks.  That's reassuring.

 

The online discussion among co-owners indicates that the existing wiring/infrastructure in the building (which is about 15 years old) is not all that reliable, which is why it was recommended to have the building staff install a new run of wire/fibre from the building's gateway connection point all the way to the individual room.

 

If they can make use of the copper wire within my unit, that would be acceptable, but I'm not sure I want them to use the copper wire network all the way from the ground floor.  Otherwise, I'd be interested in having them pull out the wire in my unit (including the conduit) and run an uninterrupted new course from the ground floor.  What I want may be irrelevant, though.  

[mtls2005]

How does this unreliability manifest itself?

 

They can test the integrity of the exiting copper in 30 seconds. If it can support the VDSL2 there would be no reason to pull new copper.

 

Obviously other people in the building have internet service so I'd just ask in the discussion forum what they are using, and if they are satisfied.

[wpcoe]

Comments were about the connection continually dropping and greatly varying speed changes.  I think the latter is probably unrelated, but apparently running a new line to their unit solves the drop outs.

 

The building changed from Sophon to TMN (Thipmanee) for CATV fairly recently, so there is a new option for DOCSIS.  There is discussion about who uses what ISP, and I'm encouraged to see the building is not locked into one, and only one, ISP.  The prices for the DOCSIS providers (apparently both Sophon and TMN are options) have come down significantly in the past month, so that's encouraging as well.

 

The gals at the front desk even said I could use True Online, but I've read that True will only install service no higher than the third floor.  Next time I'm in the area I'm going to visit a True office and see what they say.

 

I admit I haven't researched just what VDSL is versus plain old ADSL/SDSL, but I've read that 3BB advises that VDSL gives faster speed intra-Thailand, but ADSL has faster speed for overseas.  Does that make sense?  Do they use some narrower gateway for VDSL, or somehow throttle VDSL overseas connections?  

[mtls2005]

Sorry, your first post mentioned fiber, so now I'm confused.

 

My mention of VDSL2 is not important per se, it's just a way of delivering "fiber" service into a tall building. 

[wpcoe]

My preference is for fibre.  There are other options, as well.  It was recommended that if getting fibre, to have a new continuous line (fiber? copper?  other?) run from the ground floor to my unit.

[KittenKong]

Fibre To The Home does not involve copper at all. You get a fibre-optic cable all the way to a modem in your "home". This is the best option as it is very reliable.

 

Fibre To The Building does involve copper as the last part of the distribution is done using either phone cables or TV coax, both of which are generally in place in most buildings. In practice this means that you arent really getting fibre at all, any more than you would be getting fibre if you signed up to 3BBs VDSL package which also uses fibre for distribution to a point somewhere outside of your building and the phone line from there on in. This is not so reliable as it depends on the condition of many different cables and connections. Even if your building technicians run a new phone cable, you can pretty well guarantee that the cable will not  be the best quality nor will they be equipped with the proper terminals and connectors. In my building the technicians join phone cables by twisting them together with their fingers (sweat is exactly what you want on a connection - not) and finishing it with a bit of old insulating tape. And then they wonder why the repairs dont last. To do the job properly they should use these:

 

 

If you buy your FTTB from a cable internet provider then they will normally use the building's coax TV cables to bring it to your room. Other providers will use the phone line (via VDSL). It does all depend on the building and the provider though.

[wpcoe]

Thanks, KK.  I was beginning to wonder if all the FTTH vs FTTB stuff I was reading was all bunk.  I also didn't know that a CATV FTTB provider could/would use the building's coax cable.  That would remove the whole re-wiring fandango from my equation.  With such a configuration -- FTTB + the building's in-place coax distribution -- would the terminals/connectors be of better quality than finger-twisted copper connections?

 

I was also told that there were CATV splitters, akin to the ADSL splitters used for RJ45 telco jacks, so that one provider can provide cable TV and another provider can provide DOCSIS over the same cable.  Is that correct?

[mtls2005]

Copper can support VDSL2 speeds which exceed those of your subscribed fiber service, assuming 100/30 Mbps at the top end, and not 1 Gbps service, in many/most FTTC(urb)/FTTB applications. I do agree that if you can find a VDSL2 (3BB has a 50/10 VDSL package) package/price which meets your requirements, and it may be less expensive, then go for it. Using copper for the final run, but subscribing to a  fiber "package" might offer better performance/price? Finally, if you are willing to pay for a full run of fiber, if your building allows it and if the ISP agrees, then you maybe have that option.

 

Yes, coax can be used for the final run from a fiber termination point, up and in to your premises. Some providers may choose this option, especially cable (DOCSIS) internet providers. But, IME, copper is much, much, much more reliable than coax. Easier to pull, terminate, utilizes simpler networking kit.

 

Anyway, you may be over-engineering this. Just have the ISPs come in, do a site survey and choose the one which meets all of your requirements.

[KittenKong]

8 hours ago, wpcoe said:

With such a configuration -- FTTB + the building's in-place coax distribution -- would the terminals/connectors be of better quality than finger-twisted copper connections?

 

I was also told that there were CATV splitters, akin to the ADSL splitters used for RJ45 telco jacks, so that one provider can provide cable TV and another provider can provide DOCSIS over the same cable.  Is that correct?

 

The "F" connectors used for co-ax cable are much better quality than those used here (if any) for phone cable connections and should give a much better result, though it does all depend on the quality of the distribution amplifiers and splitters used in the common areas. It also depends on the quality of both cables. Yes, there are splitters/filters for co-ax cable that work in exactly the same way as those used to supply DSL and voice over one phone line (the principle is identical though the frequencies are different). There is no technical reason why one company should not supply the broadband and another the cable TV both over the same co-ax cable, but both the two companies and your building may have special rules of their own about it. You would need to ask them. The advantage of a phone cable is that it will only supply your unit and requires no splitters or amps within the building as cable co-ax normally does. With luck you may even get a single run of phone cable all the way to the ISP connection with the building.

 

In my condo unit I actually had two independent co-ax leads coming into it from the corridor and in order to get the best TV picture I had them put the cable TV on one lead and the cable internet on the other. These days I dont have either cable TV or cable internet and I just have ADSL over the phone line. So if I ever went with FTTH I would probably try to pull one of the old co-ax leads out and run the fibre in its place, to get a neat solution without knocking any holes anywhere.

[wpcoe]

Thanks.  I seem to have several options.  My initial plan was to run a new "wire" to my condo unit and get FTTH (which still I might do) but now see I can get DOCSIS from a different company than the condo-approved CATV provider on the existing single coax wiring.  Someone told me he had that, and I wanted to verify that he was not mistaken and that it actually was possible.

 

My understanding from chatting (online and in person) with some co-owners in the building is that I *can* get a single run of fibre from where the ISP terminates fibre at the building on the ground floor.  It's good to know that  coax can be used for that last segment, too.

 

Also, I think I can pay the condo guys to run a new copper phone wire for ADSL/VDSL, but nobody has specifically said they've done that.

 

When I get back to Jomtien, probably in a few weeks, I can now visit ISP offices (True, AIS, 3BB, TOT, Sophon, TMN) and see what they say is possible, and at what cost.

 

Thanks, mtls2005 and KittenKong for all of the info.  Greatly appreciated!  

[KittenKong]

I would be interested to hear about what you are offered.

[JSixpack]

Quote

I've recently bought a (used) condo in a building that will run fibre optic cable from an ISP's access point into my condo room.  I understand that an ISP will only run the fibre up until the condo building wall at ground level but that I can pay the condo maintenance guys to collaborate with the ISP's guys and run a direct run of fiber up to my condo room, which sounds delightful.  If it's as it seems.  <fingers crossed>

 

Yep, that's how it's normally done.

 

Quote

My main question at this time is how they run the fibre once it's to my room.

 

Now that was actually just a simple question.

 

Up 2 you, but partly depends on what the condo maintenance guys are willing & able to do and if not whether you want to pay renovators.

 

Yes, you could put the modem router above the ceiling accessed via panel and yes the ISP will service it there. But you'll need electric up there and it won't be very convenient for you. Fortunately fiber is a lot more reliable than the old ADSL (knock on wood) so maintenance calls should be infrequent.

 

And then you'll need a cable running down to your main computer anyway. I hear screams of "wireless!!!" I know, but gimme cable. The existing phone channel in the wall may not be large enough for the cable even if you take out the old phone line. Check on that. A new channel . . . ouch. My poor wall. But anything's possible w/ time & money of course.

 

On the other hand, a discreet external conduit mostly running in the corners and on top of the baseboards really ain't bad at all and won't offend any but the most exquisite aesthetic sensibility. Maybe you could, like, live with it.

[Suradit69]

I just had our maintenance man who handles phone, cable and internet stuff run a new wire from the ground floor up 15 floors to my condo for 3BB DSL. It's been about three years since I had him do it the last time. 15 floors of wiring  and I imagine "stuff" could happen at any place along the line over three years. Hopefully this new wire will hold up for at least another three years.

 

In the past the connection from outside my condo was then through the existing telephone line and I connected the router/modem with a line from the phone jack in the wall. This time I asked him to thread the line through a hole he drilled near the ceiling up to my desk and put the connecting box near the computer rather than in the hall ceiling.  He drilled the hole in a place where it can't easily be noticed and ran it behind a large cabinet up my desk. Big improvement in connectivity compared to the last month or so when it was noticeable poor.

 

Before running the line again I had a 3BB guy out checking their service up to the building and at my modem. Of course while he was here it was working fine and then soon after he left it went downhill again, so I decided the only thing left was replacing the wiring. So far since that was done the service has been great again.