PM Prayut says there must be political reforms before an election

[waitforusalso]

46 minutes ago, JayBeeee said:

Yes, I remember those elections! Pickups with loudspeakers continuously driving through the village, openly broadcasting their offer of ฿200 and a free ride to the polling station for everyone who votes for their man or woman. Two hours before the vote was due to close it went up to ฿300.

By tradition in this country, ANY position of power, from Phuyai Ban to PM has been sought for personal gain and empowerment, with the exception of a good few who believed they could change the system from within, but failed due to overwhelming opposition.

Prayut has a monumental and unenviable task on his shoulders! When the General's superior (treading on dangerous ground here) leaves us, there's going to be nobody to replace him, and the current occupier of that seat, if indeed there still is one, knew that a long time ago.

I can see the ultimate goal of the game, which started with the yellow shirts' protests being staged as a lead-up to the coup, being to create a fully democratic state before that time comes; but before that can happen, the whole house has to be rebuilt from the ground up, with new foundations. Establishing a non-corrupt, completely accountable and transparent political system are those foundations and, as with all new structures, the ground has to be cleared and the crap taken away; the problem here is that the current house was built on a vast open sewer, and removing it is going to be a very dirty and foul-smelling job that will upset many of those who have to live with it while it's happening.

I think we need to pay less attention to the smell of the schit and look ahead to living in the new house.

Yes, but the open sewer was largely caused by the 19 coups & periods of military rule. If military rule was the answer to corruption, then Thailand would surely be one of the least corrupt countries around.

"Since becoming a western style constitutional democratic monarchy in 1932, for most of the time the country has been ruled by military governments " Wikipedia

Go figure! The reasoning of the junta fan club! 

Edited August 31, 2016 by waitforusalso

[Eligius]

51 minutes ago, JayBeeee said:

Yes, I remember those elections! Pickups with loudspeakers continuously driving through the village, openly broadcasting their offer of ฿200 and a free ride to the polling station for everyone who votes for their man or woman. Two hours before the vote was due to close it went up to ฿300.

By tradition in this country, ANY position of power, from Phuyai Ban to PM has been sought for personal gain and empowerment, with the exception of a good few who believed they could change the system from within, but failed due to overwhelming opposition.

Prayut has a monumental and unenviable task on his shoulders! When the General's superior (treading on dangerous ground here) leaves us, there's going to be nobody to replace him, and the current occupier of that seat, if indeed there still is one, knew that a long time ago.

I can see the ultimate goal of the game, which started with the yellow shirts' protests being staged as a lead-up to the coup, being to create a fully democratic state before that time comes; but before that can happen, the whole house has to be rebuilt from the ground up, with new foundations. Establishing a non-corrupt, completely accountable and transparent political system are those foundations and, as with all new structures, the ground has to be cleared and the crap taken away; the problem here is that the current house was built on a vast open sewer, and removing it is going to be a very dirty and foul-smelling job that will upset many of those who have to live with it while it's happening.

I think we need to pay less attention to the smell of the schit and look ahead to living in the new house.

It must be wonderful to live in such a blissful world - where the present Powers That Be are all sweetness, benevolence and light.

 

For me, the first sure sign that all was not what it was claimed to be ('we are getting rid of corruption; we are standing up for morality', etc., etc.) was when the hero of the new regime, just a few weeks after his great accession to power, went down to Koh Tao and patted the policemen there on the back and spoke of rewards for them for doing such a sterling job after the slaughter of the two British tourists. That splendid and sterling job was the arrest (with not one shred of hard evidence against them) of two helpless, powerless and poor Burmese boys for the rape and murder of the British holiday-makers.

 

That told me all I needed to know about the real direction which this new, 'moral' regime was taking ...

Edited August 31, 2016 by Eligius

[Winniedapu]

4 minutes ago, waitforusalso said:

Yes, but the open sewer was largely caused by the 19 coups & periods of military rule. If military rule was the answer to corruption, then Thailand would surely be one of the least corrupt countries around.

"Since becoming a western style constitutional democratic monarchy in 1932, for most of the time the country has been ruled by military governments " Wikipedia

Go figure! The reasoning of the junta fan club! 

 

One has to wonder how it is that 19 Chiefs of the Army have believed it to be their duty to overthrow the government of the people.

 

Winnie

[Winniedapu]

6 minutes ago, Eligius said:

It must be wonderful to live in such a blissful world - where the present Powers That Be are all sweetness, benevolence and light.

 

For me, the first sure sign that all was not what it was claimed to be ('we are getting rid of corruption; we are standing up for morality', etc., etc.) was when the hero of the new regime, just a few weeks after his great accession to power, went down to Koh Tao and patted the policemen there on the back and spoke of rewards for them for doing such a sterling job after the slaughter of the two British tourists. That splendid and sterling job was the arrest (with not one shred of hard evidence against them) of two helpless, powerless and poor Burmese boys for the rape and murder of the British holiday-makers.

 

That told me all I needed to know about the real direction which this new, 'moral' regime was taking ...

 

 

But the people love him for proving that it couldn't have been a Thai that did this to 2 innocent foreigners. or so he thinks because that was the purpose of the whole sorry charade.

 

The real perpetrator is well known, and appropriate money has changed hands. The deal has been done.

 

Image and appearance is everything to these people.

 

Winnie

[JayBeeee]

33 minutes ago, waitforusalso said:

Yes, but the open sewer was largely caused by the 19 coups & periods of military rule. If military rule was the answer to corruption, then Thailand would surely be one of the least corrupt countries around.

"Since becoming a western style constitutional democratic monarchy in 1932, for most of the time the country has been ruled by military governments " Wikipedia

Go figure! The reasoning of the junta fan club! 

 

But has it been a western style constitutional democratic monarchy, or an open house for the corrupt rich who have conned and bought their way into power by fooling the uneducated population?

I have no idea what went on before Thaksin, and equally no idea what the reasoning was behind all the coups of the past 84 years, but I do know that it's a culture of lies, self interest and corruption, and has been since long before 1932. But there has aways been a monarchy which has been a mainstay to the people, from top to bottom, and that's set to change. When it does, a serious amount if schit will be hitting the fan if the country remains the polical sewer that has been for so long.

 

When Thaksin came into power, he went onto live TV and said that anyone who has been on the take can keep what they have, but take one more Baht and your arse is mine, sort of! But did anything change? If it did, I hate to think what Thailand was like beforehand! But I know that when I arrived here 12 years ago, when Thaksin was firmly embedded, you could still buy your way into or out of anything.

Believe me, I am no fan of military dictatorship, nor a member of the junta fan club, as your 'them and us' attitude suggests; but I am a member of the Thailand fan club and the Thai People's fan club, and I think that if this country is going to survive, post monarchy, drastic measures must be taken. Do you see an open house of corruption and lies taking Thailand into the future?... without civil war?

I know Prayut is something of a Prayick sometimes and his 'limited bandwidth' attitude lets him down, but he's the one who's been charged with the job and I don't envy him that.

[heybruce]

 

5 hours ago, heybruce said:

Obviously a Bangkok man.  This may come as a shock to you and others, but Bangkok isn't Thailand.

 

Under military rule, or when governed by weak elected governments controlled by the military and privy counsel, Bangkok was the center of power and patronage in Thailand.  This made its people very wealthy, salaries in Bangkok are several times the national average.

 

Democracy threatened Bangkok as the center of wealth, power and patronage, which is why Bangkok is also the center of opposition to democracy.  I won't rehash the details again, I'll once again point you to the 2012 World Bank assessment of the situation http://www.worldbank.org/en/news/feature/2012/05/10/thailand-public-finance-management-review-report

 

People in Bangkok are happy to live without democracy if that means being the center of power and wealth.  The rest of the country isn't as keen on that system.  This country has some strong "Hunger Games" similarities.

 

 

 

4 hours ago, ramrod711 said:

 

Hey Bruce, obviously you jumped to the wrong conclusion...as usual. I live in a "red" village in the north of Thailand, not too far from red central Chiang Mai. By the way, ask your buddy Winnie what Thaksin has won lately, seems his sister is going to owe billions and he keeps celebrating his birthdays in Dubai, what is it 7 or 8 of them now? I've lost track but how ever many it is, is not enough.

So you're a Bangkok man who doesn't live in Bangkok.  Can you dispute anything else I posted?

 

By the way, ask yourself what the junta has won in anything resembling a fair election--you know, the kind that reflects what the people want.  The sham of a referendum doesn't count, but if necessary I will explain once again.

Edited August 31, 2016 by heybruce
repeat post

[heybruce]

2 hours ago, JayBeeee said:

 

But has it been a western style constitutional democratic monarchy, or an open house for the corrupt rich who have conned and bought their way into power by fooling the uneducated population?

I have no idea what went on before Thaksin, and equally no idea what the reasoning was behind all the coups of the past 84 years, but I do know that it's a culture of lies, self interest and corruption, and has been since long before 1932. But there has aways been a monarchy which has been a mainstay to the people, from top to bottom, and that's set to change. When it does, a serious amount if schit will be hitting the fan if the country remains the polical sewer that has been for so long.

 

When Thaksin came into power, he went onto live TV and said that anyone who has been on the take can keep what they have, but take one more Baht and your arse is mine, sort of! But did anything change? If it did, I hate to think what Thailand was like beforehand! But I know that when I arrived here 12 years ago, when Thaksin was firmly embedded, you could still buy your way into or out of anything.

Believe me, I am no fan of military dictatorship, nor a member of the junta fan club, as your 'them and us' attitude suggests; but I am a member of the Thailand fan club and the Thai People's fan club, and I think that if this country is going to survive, post monarchy, drastic measures must be taken. Do you see an open house of corruption and lies taking Thailand into the future?... without civil war?

I know Prayut is something of a Prayick sometimes and his 'limited bandwidth' attitude lets him down, but he's the one who's been charged with the job and I don't envy him that.

"I have no idea what went on before Thaksin, and equally no idea what the reasoning was behind all the coups of the past 84 years..."

 

Do you have any desire to learn?  Any desire to earn the trust of Thai people who haven't benefited from autocratic rule and ask them questions?  Any desire to study the history of Thailand and what has happened in countries that evolve from corrupt autocracy to functioning democracy?

 

"When Thaksin came into power, he went onto live TV and....." blah, blah, blah.

 

Before Prayut came into power (not through an election, unlike Thaksin) he said there would be no coup.  Then he said the declaration of martial law was not a coup.  Then he said the coup was an "intervention" and there would be elections in 2015. And the list goes on.

 

Consider this:

 

Since 1932 there have been twelve successful coups in Thailand.  The number of unsuccessful coups coups depends on how you count.

 

There have been 20 constitutions.

 

There has been one Prime Minister who finished his term in elected office (Thaksin).

 

There has been no Prime Minister who finished two terms in elected office.

 

Democracy had never been tried in Thailand.  All new democracies get off to a rough start, they only succeed if given time to mature.  In view of the horrible track record of military rule, don't you think it's time to give democracy a chance?

Edited August 31, 2016 by heybruce
correct typo

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

PM Prayut has set himself a "Mission Impossible" and his last comment is a shot in the foot, although I believe he is trying his best to lead the country into better times.

Getting the decent Thai elite to enter the dirty world of politics is for sure a difficult task, and getting the boys already at the trough to give it up is even more unlikely.

There is of course the elephant in the room, so it might be an excuse to delay the election until other questions are answered.

[JayBeeee]

29 minutes ago, heybruce said:

"I have no idea what went on before Thaksin, and equally no idea what the reasoning was behind all the coups of the past 84 years..."

 

Do you have any desire to learn?  Any desire to earn the trust of Thai people who haven't benefited from autocratic rule and ask them questions?  Any desire to study the history of Thailand and what has happened in countries that evolve from corrupt autocracy to functioning democracy?

 

"When Thaksin came into power, he went onto live TV and....." blah, blah, blah.

 

Before Prayut came into power (not through an election, unlike Thaksin) he said there would be no coup.  Then he said the declaration of martial law was not a coup.  Then he said the coup was an "intervention" and there would be elections in 2015. And the list goes on.

 

Consider this:

 

Since 1932 there have been twelve successful coups in Thailand.  The number of unsuccessful coups coups depends on how you count.

 

There have been 20 constitutions.

 

There has been one Prime Minister who finished his term in elected office (Thaksin).

 

There has been no Prime Minister who finished two terms in elected office.

 

Democracy had never been tried in Thailand.  All new democracies get off to a rough start, they only succeed if given time to mature.  In view of the horrible track record of military rule, don't you think it's time to give democracy a chance?

I don't know why you have to be so offensive.  Can you not contribute to a didcussion without talking down to people? Perhaps you wrongly assume a degree of hostility in my comments, but, oh yeah! blah, blah, blah!

 

 

 

 

[heybruce]

19 minutes ago, JayBeeee said:

I don't know why you have to be so offensive.  Can you not contribute to a didcussion without talking down to people? Perhaps you wrongly assume a degree of hostility in my comments, but, oh yeah! blah, blah, blah!

I thought I was being factual.  Please identify the offensive parts.

[BuckBee]

is the lottery ticket pricing issue fixed yet mr prayut ...

one thing at a time ...

Oh out of interest have you declared your assets/interests ? oh 'no' and don't ask again :-/ yes sir, sorry three time sir :-S !

Edited August 31, 2016 by BuckBee

[gk10002000]

The man is unable or unwilling to comprehend what an election is.  An election IS the screening process.  The people, for good reasons or bad, are the screeners and they elect the candidates.  But of course he only wants who he wants in office.  Well, join the club.  Most people want their choices in office.  Welcome to the tough choices of how people can or should govern themselves.   But the military constantly takes over.  The military never really has not been in control except maybe during the Thaksin administration which good, bad or indifferent was an elected administration. 

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

Fitan Stack, Jaybeeee and Heybruse seem to have their knickers in a twist.

I've been here since the days of Prem, a while before 92 and Suchinda with all the problems he brought.  Thailand later got possibly the best PM Thailand has had since 1932 after all that trouble, Anand, elected.

Later we had Chuan who was weak but not corrupt, Banharn, not a nice guy, and Chavalit, the less said the better, before Chuan again.

Then started the rise of the "little corporal" Shinawatra.

Real and uncorrupted democracy is a struggle, it has not been perfected and by its very nature cannot be.

The US has had 230 years at it,  the English arguably 800 years , or at least 360+ trying to make it work. Thailand has had 83.

There are other factors at play here too.

It cannot all be fixed in a couple of weeks....

Prung Nee my friends

 

 

 

[Winniedapu]

11 hours ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

Fitan Stack, Jaybeeee and Heybruse seem to have their knickers in a twist.

I've been here since the days of Prem, a while before 92 and Suchinda with all the problems he brought.  Thailand later got possibly the best PM Thailand has had since 1932 after all that trouble, Anand, elected.

Later we had Chuan who was weak but not corrupt, Banharn, not a nice guy, and Chavalit, the less said the better, before Chuan again.

Then started the rise of the "little corporal" Shinawatra.

Real and uncorrupted democracy is a struggle, it has not been perfected and by its very nature cannot be.

The US has had 230 years at it,  the English arguably 800 years , or at least 360+ trying to make it work. Thailand has had 83.

There are other factors at play here too.

It cannot all be fixed in a couple of weeks....

Prung Nee my friends

 

 

 

 

 

I think I recall that Anand was never elected. Appointed twice but never elected.. Might be wrong but I'm sure I recall that.

 

Prem was then exactly what Prem is now.

 

The time since democracy started is of no importance if democracy never started, and in Thailand it hasn't.

 

The 'other factors' you refer to are the reason democracy never started in Thailand.

 

Never mind a couple of weeks, it can't be fixed at all. It's like an old rickety building. the only answer is to knowck it down, crush all the bricks for landfill and start again with new foundations. My opinion. Nobody ever made good building blocks from the contents of a septic tank.

 

Winnie

[heybruce]

11 hours ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

Fitan Stack, Jaybeeee and Heybruse seem to have their knickers in a twist.

I've been here since the days of Prem, a while before 92 and Suchinda with all the problems he brought.  Thailand later got possibly the best PM Thailand has had since 1932 after all that trouble, Anand, elected.

Later we had Chuan who was weak but not corrupt, Banharn, not a nice guy, and Chavalit, the less said the better, before Chuan again.

Then started the rise of the "little corporal" Shinawatra.

Real and uncorrupted democracy is a struggle, it has not been perfected and by its very nature cannot be.

The US has had 230 years at it,  the English arguably 800 years , or at least 360+ trying to make it work. Thailand has had 83.

There are other factors at play here too.

It cannot all be fixed in a couple of weeks....

Prung Nee my friends

"Real and uncorrupted democracy is a struggle, it has not been perfected and by its very nature cannot be."

 

Agreed, however the struggle can't begin until corrupt military rule ends.  As I posted earlier, twelve military coups, twenty constitutions and only one PM allowed to finish a term in elected office shows that the struggle is constantly being cut short before it has a chance to begin.  Passively accepting corrupt military rule doesn't help.

[Hawk]

"He stressed the need of an effective screening mechanism to prevent “bad people” from entering politics or to weed out “bad people” from politics"

 

In other words anyone who does not meet the army's standards will not be allowed to stand thus ruling out 99% of the population.

 

Therefore no elections.

Edited September 1, 2016 by Hawk

[Winniedapu]

13 hours ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

PM Prayut has set himself a "Mission Impossible" and his last comment is a shot in the foot, although I believe he is trying his best to lead the country into better times.

Getting the decent Thai elite to enter the dirty world of politics is for sure a difficult task, and getting the boys already at the trough to give it up is even more unlikely.

There is of course the elephant in the room, so it might be an excuse to delay the election until other questions are answered.

 

 

 

"...although I believe he is trying his best to lead the country into better times."
 

I believe he is trying to make Thailand conform to his own idea of what Thailand should be. Loyal and unquestioning. He isn't interested in what is good for the people, though that's what he says. What he does shows he is interested in maintaining the status quo of privilege and wealth obtained by dishonest means.

 

"Getting the decent Thai elite"

 

I don't believe there are any decent Thai elite for the same reason as there are no vegetarian sharks. They didn't get where they are by being decent.

 

"and getting the boys already at the trough to give it up is even more unlikely"

 

That seems likely. The answer is to treat them like a dog who bites the hand which has been feeding it too well.

 

"...it might be an excuse to delay the election until other questions are answered."

 

That as an excuse seems highly likely, that nice Mr Prayuth will probably calculate the international community would swallow that whole. Many people think that elephants are a good solution to problems, as they used to be in ancient days - they had a necessary function to perform at that time. Times have changed, mankind has grown as a species and no longer needs beasts of burden. As the rogue elephants in some national parks show clearly, untrained and unrestrained elephants are usually the cause of problems, not the solution to them. Too big, too powerful, people fear them and they attack people who get in their way. No good at all. though of course, I have no idea at all how elephants found their way into this conversation..

 

Winnie

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

I said Chuan was weak, any I meant he let people take advantage as Fitan Stack points out, but I wonder if any politician has totally squeaky clean assets? The UK certainly hasn't, the expenses scandal showed that to be true, never mind the directorships and gongs.

Anand was appointed twice, sorry  not elected, 1st by the NPKC and 2nd by Meechai standing down.

On the whole I think Winnie gets my message, although I don't believe all Thais are corrupt, even if they do act like spoilt greedy children most of the time.

 

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

6 hours ago, heybruce said:

"Real and uncorrupted democracy is a struggle, it has not been perfected and by its very nature cannot be."

 

Agreed, however the struggle can't begin until corrupt military rule ends.  As I posted earlier, twelve military coups, twenty constitutions and only one PM allowed to finish a term in elected office shows that the struggle is constantly being cut short before it has a chance to begin.  Passively accepting corrupt military rule doesn't help.

So what do you suggest? Winnie says the whole thing is beyond hope...

 

[JAG]

32 minutes ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

So what do you suggest? Winnie says the whole thing is beyond hope...

 

If I can chip in my 5 Bahts worth...

If the current process, of constructing a regime where the electoral result is constantly qualified (if not directly overturned),  by what will be effectively a permanent Junta overseeing the process of government, comes to fruition, then I suspect that within two election cycles (about 8 to 10 years) we will see serious civil unrest, possibly leading to full scale revolt, in this country. A repeatedly disenfranchised majority will simply rebel, remember there is no longer a  "safety valve".

 

If a democratically elected government were to be in place for a similar period; with all the concomitant  political, press and personal freedoms, then it could well begin the process of clearing out the corruption, as it would have to listen to the wishes of the electorate if it wanted to remain in power. The electorate would have to be energised to demand an end to corruption, and those in public life here, politicians and others who claim to have this as their aim would have an opportunity to do this .  

 

The whole process could well take several generations, it would require patience, determination, and an acceptance of parliamentary sovereignty, particularly by the military. But it would in the medium term avoid the results which I predict in my first paragraph, and in the longer term provide the vehicle to tackle many other ills which beset this society.

 

Pie in the sky? Perhaps, but I would suggest no less fanciful than relying on a permanent junta to solve the problems. Unlike Winnie I retain some optimism, and a belief that the Thais could manage it, if allowed to get on with it.

Edited September 1, 2016 by JAG

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

6 minutes ago, JAG said:

If I can chip in my 5 Bahts worth...

If the current process, of constructing a regime where the electoral result is constantly qualified if not directly overturned by what is effectively a permanent Junta overseeing the process of government, comes to fruition then I suspect that within two election cycles (about 8 to 10 years we will see serious civil unrest, possibly leading to full scale revolt, in this country. A repeatedly disenfranchised majority will simply rebel, remember there is no longer a  "safety valve".

 

If a democratically elected government were to be in place for a similar period; with all the concomitant  political, press and personal freedoms, then it could well begin the process of clearing out the corruption, as it would have to listen to the wishes of the electorate if it wanted to remain in power. The electorate would have to be energised to demand an end to corruption, and those in public life here, politicians and others who claim to have this as their aim would have an opportunity to do this .  

 

The whole process could well take several generations, it would require patience, determination, and an acceptance of parliamentary sovereignty. But it would in the medium term avoid the results which I predict in my first paragraph, and in the longer term provide the vehicle to tackle many other ills which beset this society.

 

Pie in the sky? Perhaps, but I would suggest no less fanciful than relying on a permanent junta to solve the problems. Unlike Winnie I retain some optimism, and a belief that the Thais could manage it, if allowed to get on with it.

The problem is getting to the start line. Can you trust elections to be free and fair? Is it just another choice between the same old faces at the trough?

Cromwell would have never got anywhere without the New Model Army, but does it have to be so bloody.

[Winniedapu]

29 minutes ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

The problem is getting to the start line. Can you trust elections to be free and fair? Is it just another choice between the same old faces at the trough?

Cromwell would have never got anywhere without the New Model Army, but does it have to be so bloody.

 

Personally, yes, I think it does. History shows that great social change has to be forced on any system in which the feudal barons reign. They do not accept change easily as is being proved as we speak in Thailand. A dog who will not give up a bone to it's master must be persuaded to a changed behaviour. Sinc all animals respond to reward and punishment, punishment must be applied. In this case, assets must be forfeit, families exiled and treasonous soldiers shot.

 

Extreme? Perhaps, but then I think the rate of coups and new constitutions strongly propose that Thailand is a failed state, it complies with many of the classic indicators (Wikipedia has quite a good article on that). Intractable problems need strong solutions, and they must not be a short, sharp shock, human behaviour does not change instantly, it must be a prolonged and consistent campaign of rehabilitating the kleptocracy.

 

If you prefer it in these terms, the heavens require that all significant change in human affairs be paid for by a large blood sacrifice, and since I do not believe the kleptocracy will submit willingly to rehabilitation, a civil war is therefore both inevitable and necessary. Dogs do not willingly give up bones, they must be educated as to who the masters of the country are - and that is conveniently specified in the Constitution that the present regime tore up - the Thai people. The existing Thailand is, in my judgment, rotten. Knock it down and rebuild it - without the corrupters, cheats and and thieves.

 

There are only 2 kinds of people in this context. There are the builders-up and there are the knockers-down. Personally I am no good at building, that requires a different skill-set. The knockers-down have already been working hard, which explains some of the otherwise inexplicable things that have happened in Thailand over the past few years. The builders-up will come afterwards, first the knockers-down must hold sway for a time.

 

It's all a bit disappointing, but then I for one, see what has happened in Thailand, see what happened in Japan and numerous other countries over the same timescale, and am rightfully disappointed. It seems appropriate to wonder why i had to be that way. I do not advocate that Thailand should be like other countries, I believe that the Thai people should be allowed to develop a culture based on common consent rather than having one designed by the kleptocracy and used as a weapon against them. Thais must build a better nation, because their leaders (including Thaksin) have failed them, even though Thaksin bought some benefits to the man in the street as a key to unlock the door to untold riches for himself.

 

Personal opinion. For all those who have accused me of being anti-Thai, trust me, you could not possibly be more wrong. I see huge problems with Thais and their development, but I think I can also recognise what they could become, given the chance. Which so far, they haven't been.

 

Winnie

Edited September 1, 2016 by Winniedapu
spalling error

[heybruce]

7 hours ago, heybruce said:

"Real and uncorrupted democracy is a struggle, it has not been perfected and by its very nature cannot be."

 

Agreed, however the struggle can't begin until corrupt military rule ends.  As I posted earlier, twelve military coups, twenty constitutions and only one PM allowed to finish a term in elected office shows that the struggle is constantly being cut short before it has a chance to begin.  Passively accepting corrupt military rule doesn't help.

 

1 hour ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

So what do you suggest? Winnie says the whole thing is beyond hope...

 

I would help if coups against elected governments were universally condemned.  Thailand will never have democracy until the military not only stops staging coups but stays out of politics completely.

[heybruce]

39 minutes ago, JAG said:

If I can chip in my 5 Bahts worth...

If the current process, of constructing a regime where the electoral result is constantly qualified (if not directly overturned),  by what will be effectively a permanent Junta overseeing the process of government, comes to fruition, then I suspect that within two election cycles (about 8 to 10 years) we will see serious civil unrest, possibly leading to full scale revolt, in this country. A repeatedly disenfranchised majority will simply rebel, remember there is no longer a  "safety valve".

 

If a democratically elected government were to be in place for a similar period; with all the concomitant  political, press and personal freedoms, then it could well begin the process of clearing out the corruption, as it would have to listen to the wishes of the electorate if it wanted to remain in power. The electorate would have to be energised to demand an end to corruption, and those in public life here, politicians and others who claim to have this as their aim would have an opportunity to do this .  

 

The whole process could well take several generations, it would require patience, determination, and an acceptance of parliamentary sovereignty, particularly by the military. But it would in the medium term avoid the results which I predict in my first paragraph, and in the longer term provide the vehicle to tackle many other ills which beset this society.

 

Pie in the sky? Perhaps, but I would suggest no less fanciful than relying on a permanent junta to solve the problems. Unlike Winnie I retain some optimism, and a belief that the Thais could manage it, if allowed to get on with it.

"The whole process could well take several generations...."

 

I agree, but clearly some people think a military coup and government by a corrupt military will somehow provide a quick fix to Thailand's problems and immediately provide mature, stable, honest democracy. 

[Winniedapu]

4 minutes ago, heybruce said:

"The whole process could well take several generations...."

 

I agree, but clearly some people think a military coup and government by a corrupt military will somehow provide a quick fix to Thailand's problems and immediately provide mature, stable, honest democracy. 

 

With respect, that assumes that the military is interested in changing Thailand. It isn't, it's interested in maintaining the status quo, in small things and large. The 'returning happiness' to the people' was a sop. The war on deckchairs. lottery prices and bike lanes were populist baubles. The war on corruption is a sham. Poachers, in general, do not become gamekeepers, and these poachers were at the pinnacle of poaching in Thailand. Nothing is believable until and unless the 'Royal' Thai Armed Forces destroy themselves after first destroying the 'Royal' Thai Police, the Thai judiciary and the Thai Civil Service. Then the country at least has a chance.

 

Winnie

[NativeSon360]

On 8/31/2016 at 4:28 AM, Rorri said:

"while he himself has not spent any money to buy favour from the people." No need to buy anything when you take it by military force.

Disenfranchising the power Elite, by military force, is a totally different (plain English) issue, compared to buying favour from the masses of the people, as TS did. Think, about it

Edited September 1, 2016 by NativeSon360

[JAG]

1 hour ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

The problem is getting to the start line. Can you trust elections to be free and fair? Is it just another choice between the same old faces at the trough?

Cromwell would have never got anywhere without the New Model Army, but does it have to be so bloody.

Yes, initially "on the start line" you will probably see familiar faces. The last two elections were judged by reputable international  organisations to be basically fair, not perfect but essentially fair, so I think that could be done.

The point is that the freedoms that go with democratic government will allow popular and political pressure to reform effectively. The desire to gain election, and reelection will make that pressure more effective. The old faces will fall if they don't change. They may not be able to change - so they will fall.

You have to trust the electorate.

One of the elephants in the room is the economy. Permanent junta government will preclude significant investment, as it did in Burma.
Without that investment it will sink into decrepitude, as did Burma. Democracy will allow it to revive,  as again  was the case with Burma. 
 

[NativeSon360]

On 8/31/2016 at 4:28 AM, Rorri said:

"while he himself has not spent any money to buy favour from the people." No need to buy anything when you take it by military force.

In addition, the Prayuth regime has earned the respect, and favor of the rank-and-file Thai people. The fact that he (Prayuth) put his own life "one-the_line", and managed a military coup, without resorting to violence, speaks volumes about man's character, and the culture that produced him. How many dictators have you ever heard of, who actually love their subordinated people?

 

Why not give credit, especially when the "achievement" credit has been earned, not bought. PM Prayuth has definitely earned it.

[NativeSon360]

1 hour ago, JAG said:

Yes, initially "on the start line" you will probably see familiar faces. The last two elections were judged by reputable international  organisations to be basically fair, not perfect but essentially fair, so I think that could be done.

The point is that the freedoms that go with democratic government will allow popular and political pressure to reform effectively. The desire to gain election, and reelection will make that pressure more effective. The old faces will fall if they don't change. They may not be able to change - so they will fall.

You have to trust the electorate.

One of the elephants in the room is the economy. Permanent junta government will preclude significant investment, as it did in Burma.
Without that investment it will sink into decrepitude, as did Burma. Democracy will allow it to revive,  as again  was the case with Burma. 
 

It is absolutely astounding to me, that so many farangs on this platform, have so many "knowledgeable" suggestions about "how" the body politics of the Thai government should function. Especially, when they (themselves) come from countries that are total economic-political circuses of their own. Should I name a few, of those other Red, White & Blue, so-called "First World" perfect countries?  Democracy is an over-rated, mercurial abyss of a political platform. Period! Sadam Hussein proved that much to be a fact!

 

Edited September 1, 2016 by NativeSon360

[heybruce]

25 minutes ago, NativeSon360 said:

In addition, the Prayuth regime has earned the respect, and favor of the rank-and-file Thai people. The fact that he (Prayuth) put his own life "one-the_line", and managed a military coup, without resorting to violence, speaks volumes about man's character, and the culture that produced him. How many dictators have you ever heard of, who actually love their subordinated people?

 

Why not give credit, especially when the "achievement" credit has been earned, not bought. PM Prayuth has definitely earned it.

Seriously?  If you respect this self-serving douche you are in a small minority.  The fact that he bought his way to the top of a thoroughly corrupt military speaks volumes about the man's character.  Also, coup's aren't risky in Thailand, being elected is risky.

 

Don't confuse propaganda and harsh censorship laws that forbid criticism for respect.