Thai defamation verdict a setback in anti-slavery fight, say activists

[webfact]

Thai defamation verdict a setback in anti-slavery fight, say activists

By Alisa Tang

 

BANGKOK (Thomson Reuters Foundation) - A guilty verdict for a British activist in Thailand charged with defamation for alleging ill-treatment of migrant workers at a big fruit company sets an alarming precedent in the fight against labor exploitation, rights groups said on Tuesday.

 

A Thai court handed Andy Hall of the Migrant Worker Rights Network a three-year suspended prison sentence for criminally defaming Natural Fruit Company, a pineapple wholesaler that supplies the European Union, over a 2013 report he helped author for Finnwatch, a Finland-based watchdog group.

 

"This will clearly have a chilling effect on independent research on supply chains all over Thailand," Brad Adams, Asia director of Human Rights Watch, said.

 

Full story: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-thailand-rights-reaction-idUSKCN11Q1KR

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2016-09-21

[jamesbrock]

Who cares about slaves and exploited minorities when there is face and company profits to consider? 

[Mickmouse1]

It is now entirely up to the big importing countries to get their act together and force changing or switch suppliers to other countries. Simple else the oublic must lead a boycott campaign against those errant companies. 

[rkidlad]

I'd love to have information on the food packaging. A rating based on how they treat their workers, etc.

 

Or maybe a rating based on the country of origin and how serious it takes these matters. 

[elgordo38]

3 hours ago, jamesbrock said:

Who cares about slaves and exploited minorities when there is face and company profits to consider? 

Yes they hit him with a hammer and then when it came to sentencing they handed him an olive branch. In other words "Youse was a bad boy and must suffer some form of punishment. We cannot have foreigners coming into the country and exposing our dirty little secrets for all to see. U have upset the applecart and exposed all the rotten apples there in to the world." Sorry we must make an example of you. How do you like them apples Mr. Hall?

[bark]

1 hour ago, Mickmouse1 said:

It is now entirely up to the big importing countries to get their act together and force changing or switch suppliers to other countries. Simple else the oublic must lead a boycott campaign against those errant companies. 

While I am against the idea of poor treatment of anyone. I would say that the USA treats Mexicans like slaves. And in the UK, and other EU countries, treat people from Poland and the old Russian Block countries; are treated the same way.

Low pay ; 6-8 people in one room. Etc. Etc.

What about China, India ?? Indian girls getting raped by 3-4 guys; and the government doesn't care !

The spot light is on Thailand because reporters love to come here. Weather, food, entertainment etc etc.

Let them report on Vietnam, China, India. They will not go.

[jamesbrock]

13 minutes ago, elgordo38 said:

Yes they hit him with a hammer and then when it came to sentencing they handed him an olive branch. In other words "Youse was a bad boy and must suffer some form of punishment. We cannot have foreigners coming into the country and exposing our dirty little secrets for all to see. U have upset the applecart and exposed all the rotten apples there in to the world." Sorry we must make an example of you. How do you like them apples Mr. Hall?

 

I think the very fact he was found guilty, despite the evidence presented that proved that he only worked as a research coordinator conducting worker interviews—and bears responsibility for the authorship of the report whatsoever—says more about the petty, ridiculous Thai (in)justice system.

 

As I wrote the other night, telling the truth can be illegal in Thailand.

[NongKhaiKid]

A setback, a dangerous precedent, a chilling effect on independent research, all of which will please many here as isn't this what was wanted ?

Job done.

[Jools]

A stiffer sentence than for posession of child porn. That tells you everything you need to know about Thailand. Go ahead and be a pervert, just don't exercise the right of free speech.

[manhood]

As the thai juridical system is not a system of law and order the research has be done from undercover researchers, leave the country and spread out the truth around the world from outside the country that found guilty for their wrong doing as there these countries, such as Thailand have no system of legal investigating research. They just try to protect the companies and people involved and make their money on misstreating others!

Yes don't name  the shit as we won't see it!

 

[Yann55]

5 hours ago, jamesbrock said:

Who cares about slaves and exploited minorities when there is face and company profits to consider? 

 

Which is exactly what giant corporations across the world think and apply ... except for the 'face aspect', I guess (although it's called 'image' in Western corporate lingo and it does have a huge importance as well) ...

 

These mastodons have teams of 'communication specialists' (read propaganda and manipulation wizards) who know a thousand ways to avoid being scrutinized and caught by Human Right organizations, and even when they do get caught they find cunning solutions to finagle their way out of the media mess, so ... what do we do now ? Focus on the strictly Thai problem and thereby miss the bigger picture, or acknowledge and address the dark side of capitalism everywhere ?

Edited September 21, 2016 by Yann55

[Brer Fox]

2 hours ago, rkidlad said:

I'd love to have information on the food packaging. A rating based on how they treat their workers, etc.

 

Or maybe a rating based on the country of origin and how serious it takes these matters. 

You are right on the money about country of origin particularly when it comes to imported bulk fish re-processed in Thailand. Thailand is the biggest importing country in the world of fish for re-processing. No one would ever know where it came from and it never says so on the label. It might have come from clean sea water or dirty polluted rivers and fish farms. For example if you saw where much of the imported basa (sometimes re-processed and packaged as "dory" in Thailand) was grown you wouldn't touch it with a rubber coated 40 ft pole let alone put it in your mouth.  

[lvr181]

Unfortunately, defamation is a truly horrendous crime compared to anti-slavery fight and mistreatment of people. TIT !!

 

It seems "Saving face"  outweighs anything else, sadly. 

[SOTIRIOS]

*** ...5 minutes to load a topic...your server....mine...or something else at play here....anyone else...or only me....???

 

***

...and they expect their human rights score to go up too......

 

***

...Britain should be in an uproar....then the rest of the 'civilized' world....

 

***

 

....human rights...and unfair trade practices....

 

 

[Johpa]

6 hours ago, bark said:

While I am against the idea of poor treatment of anyone. I would say that the USA treats Mexicans like slaves.

 

You have clearly never hired anyone from Mexico standing outside your local home improvement store as casual labor. Or maybe you just don't the understand the concept of slave labor.  Mexicans in the US may not always be high up on the economic ladder, but they are not treated as slaves. That is a ridiculous statement.

 

But nothing will change in Thailand from within, and outside people are unconcerned as there are never protests outside of Thai consulates or Thai consular events. And the academics who study Thailand in the west are incapable of criticizing the Thai State out of fear their comfy sabbaticals in the land of smiles will be canceled. What is left is a small group of exiled Thais and exiled foreign journalists reduced to blogging to a small audience.

[tbthailand]

Money talks, bullsh!t walks, ...

 

Wait, the Bullsh!tters are the ones with the money.   

[tbthailand]

From the OP, ... 

 

Tuesday's guilty verdict was met with glee by at least one Thai businessman, the owner of a chicken farm who is facing a $1.3 million lawsuit spearheaded by Hall for alleged labor violations.

Chicken farmer Chanchai Pheamphon said he planned to celebrate over dinner with Natural Fruit's owner Wirat Piyapornbaiboon and to work with the victorious lawyer to map out his own lawsuit against Hall.

"This is inspiration for me to file my own case, which is like Wirat's, in order to protect the chicken exporting industry, seek justice and show the world the truth," he said.

 

Well, that seems to have gotten the ball rolling... 

 

[timewilltell]

Sadly Thailand has a warped conxept when it comes to their laws. The people involved do not understand the centuries of refinements based on sound principles of justice because they have no understanding of those principles at all. This is the result of copying and pasting bits of law systems from Gernany France and the UK and then messing them altogether without any understanding of what they are doing or having a general set of principles to guide them

 

The same thing is going on with the constitution, mired in petty detail with no common thread of basic principles and seeking to serve the self interests of those in power.  Of course it is dooned to failure yet again. They would do far better having a constitution based on a set of fundamental principles and holding all laws proposed to those principles. At least the ordinary Thai might have some understanding of those principles rather than hundreds of clauses of double speak they are presented with and really can't be bothered to read as they know it is all BS.

 

Criminal laws are laws made to tackle types of crime which have an impact on the state and society as a whole. Civil laws are meant to manage dusputes of a more personal contractual nature. How then one must ask oneself does reporting on the abuse of migrant labour by a private company affect the state or society? In fact how does defamation of anyone constitute a crime against society as a whole? It is only words, nothimg to do with state secrets and solely to do with money- in other words a civil matter. The criminal defamation law is a nonsense and regularly abused.

 

The other weird fact is that criminal defamation cases - well any criminal case - can be privately brought. This is wrong since the criminal laws are supposed to be against society, society through the public prosecutor should be bringing those cases not any ass who wants to gain some leverage for monetary gain. The whole sysyem is a $&$€ up.

[bark]

12 hours ago, Johpa said:

 

You have clearly never hired anyone from Mexico standing outside your local home improvement store as casual labor. Or maybe you just don't the understand the concept of slave labor.  Mexicans in the US may not always be high up on the economic ladder, but they are not treated as slaves. That is a ridiculous statement.

 

But nothing will change in Thailand from within, and outside people are unconcerned as there are never protests outside of Thai consulates or Thai consular events. And the academics who study Thailand in the west are incapable of criticizing the Thai State out of fear their comfy sabbaticals in the land of smiles will be canceled. What is left is a small group of exiled Thais and exiled foreign journalists reduced to blogging to a small audience.

I am not talking about the Mexican people. who are used for casual labor. If they are doing this then they are legally working in the states.

What I am talking about are the 8-10 million Mexican who are in the states illegally.  Low pay, long hours. They are not in the country legally. They have no rights. And are taken advantage of.

Go into any restaurant kitchen in California. More then half are illegal. What about the workers who pick the fruit and vegetables in Florida, California ? Most are illegal from Central American. What about the Mexican hookers, all illegal.

You are out of touch; if you do not think there is slavery in the states.

[manarak]

19 hours ago, jamesbrock said:

 

I think the very fact he was found guilty, despite the evidence presented that proved that he only worked as a research coordinator conducting worker interviews—and bears responsibility for the authorship of the report whatsoever—says more about the petty, ridiculous Thai (in)justice system.

 

As I wrote the other night, telling the truth can be illegal in Thailand.

 

Thai law says that if the allegated facts in the report were proven in court, the the accused go free.

I would like to know why the defense was not able to prove the truth of the report ?

 

[jamesbrock]

1 hour ago, manarak said:

Thai law says that if the allegated facts in the report were proven in court, the the accused go free.

I would like to know why the defense was not able to prove the truth of the report ?

 

So Finnwatch had to prove the alleged facts in court, even though the man on trial was only responsible for conducing some interviews? 

 

Shouldn't the burden of proof be on Natural Fruit Company - to prove that Hall was responsible for the authorship of the report and the allegations contained therein?

Edited September 22, 2016 by jamesbrock

[manarak]

37 minutes ago, jamesbrock said:

 

So Finnwatch had to prove the alleged facts in court, even though the man on trial was only responsible for conducing some interviews? 

 

Shouldn't the burden of proof be on Natural Fruit Company - to prove that Hall was responsible for the authorship of the report and the allegations contained therein?

 

not in defamation cases. the burden of proof lies with publishers of accusations, which is IMO only logical.

 

the interviewees would have to repeat their accusations in court or record an official testimony.

 

I'm not saying the NGO report was lying, I say I would like to know why they could not prove the contents of the report or why the evidence wasn't accepted in court, or alternatively why Hall's legal team chose another defense strategy, such as for example "good faith".

 

Any journalistic report on the case that doesn't include that kind of information is a waste of space IMO.

[Khun Han]

1 hour ago, manarak said:

 

not in defamation cases. the burden of proof lies with publishers of accusations, which is IMO only logical.

 

the interviewees would have to repeat their accusations in court or record an official testimony.

 

I'm not saying the NGO report was lying, I say I would like to know why they could not prove the contents of the report or why the evidence wasn't accepted in court, or alternatively why Hall's legal team chose another defense strategy, such as for example "good faith".

 

Any journalistic report on the case that doesn't include that kind of information is a waste of space IMO.

 

It's my understanding that Andy's defence included abused workers from Natural Fruit and Thai activists who witnessed and documented abuse. Natural Fruit presented 'clean' reports from government inspectors. The judge chose to believe the government inspectors. I suppose it's the same mentality as that which causes them to always believe police witnesses over others.

Edited September 22, 2016 by Khun Han

[Khun Han]

The FTA has issued a statement:

 

http://www.fta-intl.org/news/andy-hall’s-verdict-sad-setback-human-rights-thailand#.V-JF5OJYZB0.twitter

 

This is all going to end badly for Thailand's food export industry. Natural Fruit is dragging said industry's international reputation into the gutter in the world's spotlight. Talk about a pyrrhic victory!

[jamesbrock]

1 hour ago, manarak said:

not in defamation cases. the burden of proof lies with publishers of accusations, which is IMO only logical.

 

But he wasn't the publisher of the information. He conducted some interviews.

 

Punishing someone who conducted some interviews is akin to prosecuting the guy who put gasoline into a car who's driver later went on to break a law.

 

1 hour ago, manarak said:

the interviewees would have to repeat their accusations in court or record an official testimony.

 

Before they even got to the point of whether the information was true or not, don't you think the authorship of the information should be proved?

 

1 hour ago, manarak said:

I'm not saying the NGO report was lying, I say I would like to know why they could not prove the contents of the report or why the evidence wasn't accepted in court, or alternatively why Hall's legal team chose another defense strategy, such as for example "good faith".

 

Any journalistic report on the case that doesn't include that kind of information is a waste of space IMO.

 

My point was they needed to prove he was the publisher of the information, and not just someone who received a credit, but, as usual, justice takes a back seat in order to for someone to save the face. 

 

I think the statement by the vile human rights abuser, Virat, proves what this was really about: "No foreigner should think they have power above Thai sovereignty."

Edited September 22, 2016 by jamesbrock

[manarak]

4 minutes ago, jamesbrock said:

 

But he wasn't the publisher of the information. He conducted some interviews.

 

Punishing someone who conducted some interviews is akin to prosecuting the guy who put gasoline into a car who's driver later went on to break a law.

 

 

Before they even got to the point of whether the information was true or not, don't you think the authorship of the information should be proved?

 

 

My point was they needed to prove he was the publisher of the information, and not just someone who received a credit, but, as usual, justice takes a back seat in order to for someone to save the face. 

 

actually, I understand that Hall was not a co-signatory claiming co-authorship for the report, but he was a researcher and conducted the interviews. I don't know though if he personally wrote passages in the report and gave his okay for publication, which would make him a de-facto co-author, and as such liable under the Law.

More information is needed to establish the facts, but journalists don't provide the information.

[jamesbrock]

2 minutes ago, manarak said:

 

actually, I understand that Hall was not a co-signatory claiming co-authorship for the report, but he was a researcher and conducted the interviews. I don't know though if he personally wrote passages in the report and gave his okay for publication, which would make him a de-facto co-author, and as such liable under the Law.

More information is needed to establish the facts, but journalists don't provide the information.

 

"I don't know though if he personally wrote passages in the report and gave his okay for publication" - that's what I'm arguing should be proved before they press charges, let alone require him to prove the allegations.

[manarak]

3 minutes ago, jamesbrock said:

 

"I don't know though if he personally wrote passages in the report and gave his okay for publication" - that's what I'm arguing should be proved before they press charges, let alone require him to prove the allegations.

certainly... and maybe that was one of the disputed points that was settled by the court, yet we haven't heard any details from any side... normal?

[Jools]

2 hours ago, jamesbrock said:

I think the statement by the vile human rights abuser, Virat, proves what this was really about: "No foreigner should think they have power above Thai sovereignty."

"Thai sovereignty" is usually thought to be "our laws trump YOUR laws when there is a conflict."  Thailand needs to be brought to heel by the international community.

 

 

 

 

[Johpa]

11 hours ago, bark said:

I am not talking about the Mexican people. who are used for casual labor. If they are doing this then they are legally working in the states.

What I am talking about are the 8-10 million Mexican who are in the states illegally.  Low pay, long hours. They are not in the country legally. They have no rights. And are taken advantage of.

Go into any restaurant kitchen in California. More then half are illegal. What about the workers who pick the fruit and vegetables in Florida, California ? Most are illegal from Central American. What about the Mexican hookers, all illegal.

You are out of touch; if you do not think there is slavery in the states.

 

Oh my.  Most of the casual labor standing outside of Home Depot are "illegals" willing to do hard manual labor, but certainly not for minimum wage.  Most restaurant workers are working long days for minimum wage and minimum wages in most of the US are ridiculously low, but apply to "illegals" as well as to citizens.  But all of this is far from slavery apart from a metaphorical use of the word.  But I think that the US political economy treats all labor as second class citizens. Just look at the tax system that taxes labor before a worker even receives a paycheck yet unearned income is taxed quarterly at best. It  just doesn't add up to the slavery you can still find in South Asia or Southeast Asia that can be found in the fishing fleets or the brothels, regions where these is absolutely no political movements to increase minimum wage.

 

And where do I find these Mexican hookers? I am getting so tired of white trailer trash meth addicts.