Poland debates total abortion ban

[williamgeorgeallen]

12 minutes ago, 55Jay said:

No, the church is involved in supporting this proposal and it's quite common for fervent religious people to have strong views against abortion, as you do.   You referenced god in a post you made on page 1.    But OK, if you are arguing against abortion because it's murder, then I've got no issues with that.

 

I bristle up when the church involves itself in governmental affairs.

 

As to your views about marrying Thai women, I'll go with your rationale for a moment.  It's often a mistake.  These dopes fly in the face of a mountain of anecdotal and statistical evidence, and still do it,  but can terminate with divorce and hopefully there are no kids involved.  So yes, people make "mistakes", even when they know, or should know, better. 

 

What about casual sex?  Humans are one of a few species that engage in sex for pleasure, not just reproduction.  Men and women both know it could result in pregnancy.  Take one-night stands, where one or both parties may be intoxicated.  They may not even exchange family names and phone numbers.  They may or may not take precautions but ooops....   a month later she's pregnant.   She doesn't want kids.  It was a careless mistake on her (and his) part.  Should she be forced, by law, to have no legal way out?  The rest of her life is forever altered.

think i referenced god in response to another comment. i have no interest in talking about god.

the church needs to stay out of everything. there is a mess in australia weather gays should be able to get married. think they should ban marriage outright. just bring in a system where people register their assets and there intent to start a relationship. would make things simple. see young couples getting into debt spending big on weddings when that money should be use to give their kids a better up bringing.

if i break the law and drink drive my car and kill some one i should not be allowed to say ooops and not suffer the consequences. people need to be held accountable for their actions. 

Edited September 24, 2016 by williamgeorgeallen

[williamgeorgeallen]

3 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

The Poles democratically elected a right wing government. This kind of stuff is what happens when people do that. The abortion debate is international. People have strong feelings about it both ways. Minds won't be changed. 

i agree but it is good to hear other peoples arguments for or against. my home country needs the 14000 babies aborted every year and they are discarded because it inconveniences the mothers.

[stevenl]

1 minute ago, williamgeorgeallen said:

i agree but it is good to hear other peoples arguments for or against. my home country needs the 14000 babies aborted every year and they are discarded because it inconveniences the mothers.

I think you're thinking way, way to lightly about the mother's decision to abort.

[thaibeachlovers]

7 minutes ago, williamgeorgeallen said:

fine line. adoption in nz has fallen almost to nothing in nz as everyone just has abortions. there are about 100 adoptions per year and about 14000 abortions. there are more than enough parents willing to adopt these babies. the new zealand population would be in decline if it were not for immigration. all seems like a waste of life.

You still depend on FORCING women to have babies against their will. IMO that is against the right to pursue happiness. Happiness is not having a baby that ruins your body and potentially destroys your health or life. No teenager wants stretch marks and saggy boobs.

Are you against immigration? I don't care where people come from, as long as they want to assimilate and not change N Z society. EVERY N Z person is an immigrant. There is NO equivalent to the Aussie aborigine in N Z. I'd like to see more Chinese in N Z as the totty is very attractive.

[55Jay]

1 minute ago, williamgeorgeallen said:

think i referenced god in response to another comment. i have no interest in talking about god.

the church needs to stay out of everything. there is a mess in australia weather gays should be able to get married. think they should ban marriage outright. just bring in a system where people register their assets and there intent to start a relationship. would make things simple. see young couples getting into debt spending big on weddings when that money should be use to give their kids a better up bringing.

if i break the law and drive my car and kill some one i should not be allowed to say ooops and not suffer the consequences. people need to be held accountable for their actions. 

I think we agree and flew past each other because of my incorrect assumption when you mentioned god. 

 

I agree you should be held responsible if you kill someone. 

 

When it comes to bringing a child into the world, that takes planning, commitment and resources to do it properly.   We can chastise those who act irresponsibly and get pregnant but no matter what we think or feel about them or the situation, there must continue to be a safe, legal way to deal with the plethora of "oops" situations. 

[williamgeorgeallen]

4 minutes ago, 55Jay said:

I think we agree and flew past each other because of my incorrect assumption when you mentioned god. 

 

I agree you should be held responsible if you kill someone. 

 

When it comes to bringing a child into the world, that takes planning, commitment and resources to do it properly.   We can chastise those who act irresponsibly and get pregnant but no matter what we think or feel about them or the situation, there must continue to be a safe, legal way to deal with the plethora of "oops" situations. 

if people act in an irresponsible manner they need to pay for those actions especially if those actions lead to loss of life. in a civilized society the value of human life must be held above everything else. there must be some compromise where all these unwanted babies being killed off can go to the growing number of people wanting babies  who can make their own.

[55Jay]

1 minute ago, williamgeorgeallen said:

if people act in an irresponsible manner they need to pay for those actions especially if those actions lead to loss of life. in a civilized society the value of human life must be held above everything else. there must be some compromise where all these unwanted babies being killed off can go to the growing number of people wanting babies  who can make their own.

There are processes in place for that already for willing parties on both sides of the equation.  Willing being the operative word.

 

Legislation rewinding abortion into murder is a step too far and turns women (and men) who've made a mistake, into victims of the state. 

[KarenBravo]

 

1 minute ago, williamgeorgeallen said:

if people act in an irresponsible manner they need to pay for those actions especially if those actions lead to loss of life. in a civilized society the value of human life must be held above everything else. there must be some compromise where all these unwanted babies being killed off can go to the growing number of people wanting babies  who can make their own.

 

Need to pay? Getting pissed at a party and ending up pregnant?

Making her have the baby by force of law and maybe ruining her chance in life (university missed) is far, far worse than the crime of getting rid of a zygote, or foetus.

 

In my first post, I mention back-street butchers and wire coat-hangers. Making abortion illegal doesn't get rid of the demand, and where there is demand, there will be supply.

You never did mention how you would deal with this. This is my main objection to making abortion illegal; the suffering and possible death of women needlessly.

[pumpuy]

On 9/23/2016 at 10:50 AM, williamgeorgeallen said:

the death penalty is also murder. you can read my posts on the matter. once we start telling society it is ok to murder people (weather they are in the womb or in a jail) it is a slippery slope leading away from civilized society.

You really call this " a civilized society " ?

[dick dasterdly]

37 minutes ago, williamgeorgeallen said:

ok. i would like to see abortion at least more controlled. people are using it as a form of birth control. pregnant woman should be counciled and given an offer from parents looking to adopt. new zealand has so few babies to adopt and tens of thousands of good parents who want to adopt. if the pregnant mother was compensated for her 9 months of pregnancy then she may be more willing to go through with the pregnancy.

This thread is about Poland and, I gather from the OP, that they already have very strict abortion laws - but are now looking to ban abortions entirely.

[55Jay]

1 minute ago, dick dasterdly said:

This thread is about Poland and, I gather from the OP, that they already have very strict abortion laws - but are now looking to ban abortions entirely.

I would feel very badly for Polish women trapped in a country run by puppets of the church.

 

Had a Mexican GF is San Diego.  She was an illegal but got her green card during Reagan's amnesty.  After years together, she told me her story and how she came to have a child, who was I think 7 or 8 when I met her. 

 

She was raped in Mexico as a teenager.  The solution was she had to marry her rapist to keep up appearances.  No abortion thanks to the men in funny hats who determine the "culture".  She took the hush hush advice of adult women and drank some kind of preparation they gave her to induce a miscarriage.  She got very sick but it didn't work.  She ran away, made her way to the border and crawled through a pipe into the US and eventually had her "anchor" baby at UCSD hospital.  The father of her child back in Mexico was later killed in a drug deal gone bad.   The kid (Michael) was a nice boy, but he had some fairly obvious coordination, speaking and learning troubles.  I often wondered if that was a result of the home remedy attempted abortion.

[Chicog]

1 hour ago, williamgeorgeallen said:

not only irresponsible but un maintainable.

 

But cultural, since the uneducated rely on their children to look after them in old age, and historically probably six of those nine would have died of something.

Unfortunately no-one teaches them that with things like medical care around, you no longer need to play those odds.

[thaibeachlovers]

35 minutes ago, Chicog said:

 

But cultural, since the uneducated rely on their children to look after them in old age, and historically probably six of those nine would have died of something.

Unfortunately no-one teaches them that with things like medical care around, you no longer need to play those odds.

It's also down to western do gooders that go to poor countries and save all the babies, but don't actually educate people. Education is the number one thing to reduce the number of children a woman has.

It's the law of unintended consequences.