France warns UK premier of tough time ahead in Brexit talks

[Laughing Gravy]

13 minutes ago, JAG said:

And there are three jolly good reasons for leaving the EU.

I agree totally and another one is just seeing the way the Canadians were treated yesterday, trying to do business with them. This sums up the Bureaucratic EU. Yes the EU will try and make things difficult for the UK. The way it being handled should be a lesson for the other countries. If you try and get out they will punish you (or try). It is a closed shop federalized union which says, you all do as I say. Any country is just crazy to be apart of it.

[Grouse]

6 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

I agree totally and another one is just seeing the way the Canadians were treated yesterday, trying to do business with them. This sums up the Bureaucratic EU. Yes the EU will try and make things difficult for the UK. The way it being handled should be a lesson for the other countries. If you try and get out they will punish you (or try). It is a closed shop federalized union which says, you all do as I say. Any country is just crazy to be apart of it.

 

The Walloons seem to disprove your theory!

[Basil B]

On 21/10/2016 at 4:06 AM, petermik said:

Ah the love of everything British by France comes to the fore once more............

 

As I see it, the biggest problem with Europe is                           ...The French 

[Laughing Gravy]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

 

The Walloons seem to disprove your theory!

I was going to reply but I realized you are taking the Michael.

[Grouse]

6 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

I was going to reply but I realized you are taking the Michael.

 

I am entirely serious

 

You consistently attack what you consider to be inadequate democracy within the EU?

 

Well, the Walloons are going against the majority and have effectively put a stick in the wheels of this negotiation.

 

Surely you applaud this? What is your complaint?

[Laughing Gravy]

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

 

I am entirely serious

 

You consistently attack what you consider to be inadequate democracy within the EU?

 

Well, the Walloons are going against the majority and have effectively put a stick in the wheels of this negotiation.

 

Surely you applaud this? What is your complaint?

I highlight the fact of the bureaucratic EU and the endless hoops that other non EU countries have to go through to get business done. If I was Canada I would  give the EU the finger. The UK will trade with them but it just shows the process that countries have to put up with if you are not a 'member'.

[CharlieK]

On 10/21/2016 at 4:19 PM, arithai12 said:

 

Sure, Hollande might be gone before Brexit is done, but he is only saying what the french voters want to hear, and the one after him will not say or do differently.

 

Don't be so sure that is what the french want to hear. Quite a few frenchies want out also.

[CharlieK]

2 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

I highlight the fact of the bureaucratic EU and the endless hoops that other non EU countries have to go through to get business done. If I was Canada I would  give the EU the finger. The UK will trade with them but it just shows the process that countries have to put up with if you are not a 'member'.

 

What it shows is that the EU are not able to negotiate a trade deal with any country. To much protectionism is the EU problem. They make it impossible to negotiate.  

[ilostmypassword]

1 minute ago, Laughing Gravy said:

I highlight the fact of the bureaucratic EU and the endless hoops that other non EU countries have to go through to get business done. If I was Canada I would  give the EU the finger. The UK will trade with them but it just shows the process that countries have to put up with if you are not a 'member'.

Really. Every year the World Bank comes out with a ranking of the easiest countries to do business with. 3 of the top 10 were in the EU. They were, Denmark, Finland, and the UK. A fourth, Norway, isn't in it but does pay for the privilege of doing business as though it were.  And if you expand it to the top 20  then there are also, Sweden, Germany, Ireland, and Estonia. There's also Switzerland, which like Norway, pays for the privilege of having unfettred access to the EU market. That would make a total of 9 out of the top 20 nations are part of the EU.

[Grouse]

7 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

I highlight the fact of the bureaucratic EU and the endless hoops that other non EU countries have to go through to get business done. If I was Canada I would  give the EU the finger. The UK will trade with them but it just shows the process that countries have to put up with if you are not a 'member'.

 

Impossible to debate with you. You made the point that the EU was a closed shop and everyone has to do as they're told. I have just given a perfect example disproving your point. So now you move the goal posts and say the big problem

is bureaucracy. All trade deals are bureaucratic minefields. Please consider what you post. Thank you.

[Laughing Gravy]

9 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

Impossible to debate with you. You made the point that the EU was a closed shop and everyone has to do as they're told. I have just given a perfect example disproving your point. So now you move the goal posts and say the big problem

is bureaucracy. All trade deals are bureaucratic minefields. Please consider what you post. Thank you.

No Grouse we disagree and you are a Europhile and I am not. That is clear from our posts. I loathe the EU and what it stands for and done to the countries of Europe. You have said whilst not perfect, you agree and believe in it. Debating not impossible, we disagree.

[CharlieK]

2 hours ago, Grouse said:

 

The Walloons seem to disprove your theory!

 

I think you are splitting hairs! any of the 27 states can veto a trade deal. That is one good reason to get out. Or not negotiate at all. The UK could sign a trade deal with Canada quicker than the EU will ever be able to do. 

[ilostmypassword]

12 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

Impossible to debate with you. You made the point that the EU was a closed shop and everyone has to do as they're told. I have just given a perfect example disproving your point. So now you move the goal posts and say the big problem

is bureaucracy. All trade deals are bureaucratic minefields. Please consider what you post. Thank you.

 

 

2 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

No Grouse we disagree and you are a Europhile and I am not. That is clear from our posts. I loathe the EU and what it stands for and done to the countries of Europe. You have said whilst not perfect, you agree and believe in it. Debating not impossible, we disagree.

Basically what we have here is an admission that there is nothing rational at the root of your objections to the EU. You falsely assert that the EU makes it difficult to do business.  You falsely claim it coerces any country that opposes proposed policy.  And on and on.

[Laughing Gravy]

3 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

You falsely assert that the EU makes it difficult to do business.  You falsely claim it coerces any country that opposes proposed policy.  And on and on.

Stalking me again. But the two statements are hilarious. Who are you. Jean Claude Juncker

[Xircal]

9 hours ago, Yann55 said:

 

Exactly, but ... the situation you're refering to is the one we're already in, don't you think ?

 

Sure, in our democracies, it looks like we elect people, but in order to be elected these people must campaign, and  to campaign they must turn to where the money is, because campaigning has become ridiculously expensive. Also, these campaigns are now totally and blatantly about manipulating the voters rather than informing them about a political program, because no ones believes in these programs any more, anyway.

 

In his book called 'The Assault on Reason' (2007), Al Gore paints a rather gloomy and distressing picture of his presidential campaign (in 2000), and admits that the whole 'democratic' system, including of course the elections, is in effect manipulated by big corporations, which are in the hands of a small number of people. He hasn't changed his stance. If you Google 'democracy has been hacked', you will find a very interesting speech he made in April 2015 in front of 400 Berkeley students. Will these young people understand what is at stake here ? Will they try to do something about it, and more importantly, can they do something about it ?

 

I personnally doubt it, unfortunately, because the system has reached a point where it is so deeply and irreversably rigged that many people have begun to see it as normal.

 

I think if enough people protest the tide can be  turned and the protest blocking the Canadian deal is a good start: https://ttip-leaks.org/

 

[Grouse]

21 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

No Grouse we disagree and you are a Europhile and I am not. That is clear from our posts. I loathe the EU and what it stands for and done to the countries of Europe. You have said whilst not perfect, you agree and believe in it. Debating not impossible, we disagree.

 

Well you are correct about one thing; I am a Europhile.

 

(I'm becoming increasingly embarrassed about the UK though) ?

[ilostmypassword]

16 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Stalking me again. But the two statements are hilarious. Who are you. Jean Claude Juncker

I had the world bank behind me for my source of data about the ease of doing business. 9 out of the top 20 countries are members of affiliated with the EU. Your data source seems to be an occult portion of your anatomy.  As for stalking you, if you think that's the case, take it up with the moderators.  But I think your real problem with me is that I'm successfully exposing the weakness of your arguments.

[Laughing Gravy]

2 hours ago, ilostmypassword said:

But I think your real problem with me is that I'm successfully exposing the weakness of your arguments.

Really you surely flatter yourself. Your arguments are weak , poor and bordering on the side of obsessive towards me. Just look at the thread that was pulled, due to you and your lefty luvvie comrades.  You see I have encountered people like you all my life. You think you are liberal , even enlightened . The fact is that you write in a style of an internet bully. I don't feel intimidated even though you are following every thread, I comment on. So yes Mods do the stats. I really would like to say, I don't care for you and your band of bullies.

Edited October 22, 2016 by Laughing Gravy

[Laughing Gravy]

2 hours ago, Grouse said:

 

Well you are correct about one thing; I am a Europhile.

 

(I'm becoming increasingly embarrassed about the UK though) ?

Well as I have said before Grouse, I respect your views. I disagree with them

[ilostmypassword]

1 minute ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Really you surely flatter yourself. Your arguments are weak , poor and bordering on the side of obsessive towards me. Just look at the thread that was pulled, due to you and your lefty luvvie comrades.  You see I have encountered people like you all my life. You think you are liberal , even enlightened . The fact is that you write in a style of an internet bully. I don't feel intimidated even though you are following every thread, I comment on. So yes Mods do the stats. I really I would like to say, I don't care for you and your band of bullies.

What precisely do you find weak in my citation of data from the world bank?

[Laughing Gravy]

2 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

What precisely do you find weak in my citation of data from the world bank?

Well I will give you some time to look at the world bank. I will reply tomorrow. Just so you know about the world bank. Not linked to the EU and IMF at all?

What I find weak about your citation is forcing the EU down the European countries throat as a model of an exemplary business model. I is not It is a closed shop. You abide by our rules or we don't do business with you or you are out.

 

So who are you? Which nationality  are you? What' is your interest in all this? What stake do you have in the UK, staying in the EU. I will answer all of these to you, although I have said them before.

Once I get these answers I will reply.

 

[ilostmypassword]

I actually do

12 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Well I will give you some time to look at the world bank. I will reply tomorrow. Just so you know about the world bank. Not linked to the EU and IMF at all?

What I find weak about your citation is forcing the EU down the European countries throat as a model of an exemplary business model. I is not It is a closed shop. You abide by our rules or we don't do business with you or you are out.

 

So who are you? Which nationality  are you? What' is your interest in all this? What stake do you have in the UK, staying in the EU. I will answer all of these to you, although I have said them before.

Once I get these answers I will reply.

 

I actually don't understand your comment about "forcing the EU down the European countries throat."  I don't have a clue what that's about. As I have remarked several times, I think the Euro was a terrible idea. Moreover, most of the problems plaguing the EU come from the Eurozone and the fact the monetary union without fiscal union makes no sense. The European economy would be a lot stronger now if the Euro had never been created. But the Euro is one problem the UK never had.

[Grouse]

18 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Well I will give you some time to look at the world bank. I will reply tomorrow. Just so you know about the world bank. Not linked to the EU and IMF at all?

What I find weak about your citation is forcing the EU down the European countries throat as a model of an exemplary business model. I is not It is a closed shop. You abide by our rules or we don't do business with you or you are out.

 

So who are you? Which nationality  are you? What' is your interest in all this? What stake do you have in the UK, staying in the EU. I will answer all of these to you, although I have said them before.

Once I get these answers I will reply.

 

 

Good lord!

 

time for bed said zebedee....

[Laughing Gravy]

10 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

You falsely assert that the EU makes it difficult to do business

There are lots, lot's more. So falsely!

http://www.dluk.info/european-union-eu-bureaucracy-kills-uk-business.html

http://www.economist.com/blogs/charlemagne/2010/06/bureaucrats_brussels

http://www.economicshelp.org/europe/disadvantages-eu/

http://www.express.co.uk/comment/expresscomment/461469/British-business-is-being-strangled-by-EU-red-tape

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/mar/30/would-brexit-help-britain-steel-industry

http://www.express.co.uk/finance/city/620357/Theo-Paphitis-Europe-bureaucracy-difficult-to-do-business

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-theresa-may-eu-summit-wpp-martin-sorrell-diplomatic-war-business-impact-a7374196.html

https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-law-what-proportion-influenced-eu/

[Laughing Gravy]

10 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

You falsely claim it coerces any country that opposes proposed policy

The EU is a closed shop. You have to follow rules and for those who do not get punished ostracized like the UK is now for Brexit. The consistent red tape and back door laws have created a minefield of entanglement making it difficult for anyone to get deals on their own. as it goes against the policy of the EU.

"Under current EU rules, EU countries cannot make separate trade deals with individual member states or non-EU countries."

http://www.cer.org.uk/insights/would-britain%E2%80%99s-trade-be-freer-outside-eu

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36684876

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/feb/28/brexit-would-affect-lives-of-millions-official-uk-report-says

[ilostmypassword]

1 hour ago, Laughing Gravy said:

The EU is a closed shop. You have to follow rules and for those who do not get punished ostracized like the UK is now for Brexit. The consistent red tape and back door laws have created a minefield of entanglement making it difficult for anyone to get deals on their own. as it goes against the policy of the EU.

"Under current EU rules, EU countries cannot make separate trade deals with individual member states or non-EU countries."

http://www.cer.org.uk/insights/would-britain%E2%80%99s-trade-be-freer-outside-eu

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36684876

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/feb/28/brexit-would-affect-lives-of-millions-official-uk-report-says

Of course they can't make separate deals. The EU is a free trade zone for members. If each member of the free trade zone were to start offering special deals to non-members then the trade zone would fall apart.  As for the UK being punished. Voters chose to leave. If there were no negative consequences for leaving then why would anyone stay in the EU? 

[ilostmypassword]

1 hour ago, Laughing Gravy said:

There are lots, lot's more. So falsely!

http://www.dluk.info/european-union-eu-bureaucracy-kills-uk-business.html

http://www.economist.com/blogs/charlemagne/2010/06/bureaucrats_brussels

http://www.economicshelp.org/europe/disadvantages-eu/

http://www.express.co.uk/comment/expresscomment/461469/British-business-is-being-strangled-by-EU-red-tape

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/mar/30/would-brexit-help-britain-steel-industry

http://www.express.co.uk/finance/city/620357/Theo-Paphitis-Europe-bureaucracy-difficult-to-do-business

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-theresa-may-eu-summit-wpp-martin-sorrell-diplomatic-war-business-impact-a7374196.html

https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-law-what-proportion-influenced-eu/

So I started to look at these articles. the first one is written by a climate change denier who cites the banning of incandescent bulbs as a hindrance to british industry

The 2nd article is about the high pay and benefits of brussels bureaucrats

the 3rd article is actually a refutation of contentions that the EU is bad for the UK!!!

the 4th contained lots of assertions but no real data. what there is was a screed against greenhouse gas regulations..

At this point, I stopped reading any further instances of your alleged evidence.

 

[Laughing Gravy]

 

Some more alleged evidence  (hilarious) that the EU is bureaucratic and makes it difficult to do business. I must be making it all up LMHO

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/22/ministers-fear-uk-eu-trade-deal-could-take-decade-as-walloons-to/

 

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/723841/ceta-trade-deal-eu-canada-rejected-wallonia-brussels-jean-claude-juncker

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p04crh2r  ( You can hear it from the Biased BBC)

[Khun Han]

33 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Of course they can't make separate deals. The EU is a free trade zone for members. If each member of the free trade zone were to start offering special deals to non-members then the trade zone would fall apart.  As for the UK being punished. Voters chose to leave. If there were no negative consequences for leaving then why would anyone stay in the EU? 

 

This rather circular argument is a kind of summary of one of the big issues as to what went wrong with the EU: as a loose association of trading neighbours it worked fine; but it insidiously became much more than that, and member nations got entwined in a myriad of ways that were not what they signed up for; by this time the EU had all it's members by the short and curlys, and "if there were no negative consequenses why would anyone stay in the EU?" Why indeed? No member state ever needed any more than the trade association out of it.

 

Even if the EU somehow manages to stay solvent, we still dodged a bullet getting out in the next six months. It was probably our last chance to do so. Stay in, and we were well on our way to no way back. And if the EU's finances hit ice (and they may well do that), we'd be one of the hardest hit.

 

And one thing that remainers refuse to address is: which country is going to dominate a federal Europe in which it's member states have no way out? The EU already has the Euro set up to subsidise the German economy. Where will the checks and balances come from in the future? France?  The much-loved UK? 

 

Get out, while we still can.

[ilostmypassword]

5 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

 

Some more alleged evidence  (hilarious) that the EU is bureaucratic and makes it difficult to do business. I must be making it all up LMHO

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/22/ministers-fear-uk-eu-trade-deal-could-take-decade-as-walloons-to/

 

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/723841/ceta-trade-deal-eu-canada-rejected-wallonia-brussels-jean-claude-juncker

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p04crh2r  ( You can hear it from the Biased BBC)

Actually it turns out that this situation arose because the EU just recently decided to make the approval of treaties subject to a veto by individual nations.. It was a direct response to Brexit and the alleged desire of people like the Brexiteers who felt that too much power had been taken away from individual nations. Those Eu potentates who did this are the same people that Brexiteers allege are always looking for more power.  And I'm sure you'll agree with me that it was a very, very, bad idea  to return what is effectively a veto power to the individual nations of the EU.