May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[mommysboy]

Just now, mommysboy said:

Bad negotiating tactics by UK though in my honest opinion.  We come across as so needing a trade deal that EU feels it has a whip hand all round.  We have also dropped a real clanger by not including our security commitments to Europe.  Who on earth wants to be shafted and then spend billions looking after the people that did it?

 

Of course there some very bad effects for UK.  These have been done to a death.  But no one has made anything of the effects on the EU: compromised trade flows especially for Germany and Holland, a very big economic hit on Ireland, destabilisation in the EU financial markets as it loses access to it's main funding market, and the defence issues.  The truth is whilst this is a very bad situation for UK it is arguably worse for the very sclerotic and far from unified EU.

 

Through its own stupidity EU would also have an advanced, liberal, low regualation, and highly motivated competitor on its doorstep snapping at its heels at every turn.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Naam]

11 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Its the EU that keeps going on about how much the UK must pay to leave, and they never mention any reimbursement to the UK offsetting these (made up) figures....

 

You're probably right that when the final figure is far lower, May will be seen as having won the day - but that's entirely the EU's fault for coming up with these outlandish figures in the first place! 

it's mainly the fault of journàrselists and media barons with an agenda of their own and those who selectively pick Brexit justification reports and present them with misinterpretations.

[pitrevie]

9 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Its the EU that keeps going on about how much the UK must pay to leave, and they never mention any reimbursement to the UK offsetting these (made up) figures....

 

You're probably right that when the final figure is far lower, May will be seen as having won the day - but that's entirely the EU's fault for coming up with these outlandish figures in the first place! 

If you were a fan of Sir Humphrey Appleby you would know be now that its in the nature of politicians to announce a headline grabbing  figure then a later lower agreed figure is hailed as a great win for whoever etc and drinks all round. How many times do we see some body or other announce some outlandish price increase followed by an outcry after which they announce that the increase has been reduced by 50% which is what they were after in the first place. 

[dick dasterdly]

21 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Bad negotiating tactics by UK though in my honest opinion.  We come across as so needing a trade deal that EU feels it has a whip hand all round.  We have also dropped a real clanger by not including our security commitments to Europe.  Who on earth wants to be shafted and then spend billions looking after the people that did it?

 

Of course there some very bad effects for UK.  These have been done to a death.  But no one has made anything of the effects on the EU: compromised trade flows especially for Germany and Holland, a very big economic hit on Ireland, destabilisation in the EU financial markets as it loses access to it's main funding market, and the defence issues.  The truth is whilst this is a very bad situation for UK it is arguably worse for the very sclerotic and far from unified EU.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Not sure how its the UK that is using bad negotiating tactics - bearing in mind the UK has said very little, other than 'no deal is better than a bad deal' . Which is surely correct?

 

At first I thought it was a 'typo' and you meant the EU is using bad negotiating tactics, which would make more sense IMO.

[dick dasterdly]

26 minutes ago, pitrevie said:

If you were a fan of Sir Humphrey Appleby you would know be now that its in the nature of politicians to announce a headline grabbing  figure then a later lower agreed figure is hailed as a great win for whoever etc and drinks all round. How many times do we see some body or other announce some outlandish price increase followed by an outcry after which they announce that the increase has been reduced by 50% which is what they were after in the first place. 

I agree, but in this case its entirely the fault of EU politicians for continually stating (and increasing....) the amount the UK must pay to leave....

 

Only May can 'win' when the eventual figure is far lower - not the EU politicians making up these numbers!

Edited May 4, 2017 by dick dasterdly

[rockingrobin]

11 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I agree, but in this case its entirely the fault of EU politicians for continually stating (and increasing....) the amount the UK must pay to leave....

 

Only May can 'win' when the eventual figure is far lower - not the EU politicians making up these numbers!

The 100b figure was an analysis by the FT, modelled on assumptions based upon EU criteria to be negotiated and did not include any rebates, etc

[pitrevie]

27 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I agree, but in this case its entirely the fault of EU politicians for continually stating (and increasing....) the amount the UK must pay to leave....

 

Only May can 'win' when the eventual figure is far lower - not the EU politicians making up these numbers!

Yes I know its the fault of the EU politicians apparently it always is. Heaven forbid that there should be any criticism of any UK politicians least of all the PM.

[dick dasterdly]

24 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I agree, but in this case its entirely the fault of EU politicians for continually stating (and increasing....) the amount the UK must pay to leave....

 

Only May can 'win' when the eventual figure is far lower - not the EU politicians making up these numbers!

 

9 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

The 100b figure was an analysis by the FT, modelled on assumptions based upon EU criteria to be negotiated and did not include any rebates, etc

Fair enough, so the latest 100 bn figure (happily quoted by the odd poster as a good remain argument) is just a figure mentioned in an FT article that only looked at EU assumptions and criteria, whilst ignoring rebates owed to the UK....

 

Nonetheless, its the EU that is souring future negotiations (negotiation list/60bn owed/releasing conversation over a dinner as evidence that May is delusional etc. etc.) - before negotiations have even started!

[dick dasterdly]

5 minutes ago, pitrevie said:

Yes I know its the fault of the EU politicians apparently it always is. Heaven forbid that there should be any criticism of any UK politicians least of all the PM.

Seriously??

 

I know you can do better than this pointless comment.

[Khun Han]

3 hours ago, Naam said:

utmost cheap and ridiculous argument. you can do better.

 

You need to address your complaint to the poster who started the analogy .

[Flustered]

3 hours ago, Naam said:

wrong! 2000 year old basic law Roman Empire "pacta sunt servanda!" (agreements must be kept!), id est no bailing out without honouring all commitments even if there are no future benefits to expect.

Basic law for who? (and you don't need to translate, I studied Latin at school and a more accurate translation is "promises" not "agreements").

 

I don't recall any 2000 year old Roman laws being in place.

 

Just another bit of spinning and emotional blackmail.

 

 

[pitrevie]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

Seriously??

 

I know you can do better than this pointless comment.

That is what it amounts to each time. Its their fault they started it, just look at the reply from Khun Han.

[mommysboy]

2 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

Not sure how its the UK that is using bad negotiating tactics - bearing in mind the UK has said very little, other than 'no deal is better than a bad deal' . Which is surely correct?

 

At first I thought it was a 'typo' and you meant the EU is using bad negotiating tactics, which would make more sense IMO.

 

The stance- going for an impossible trade deal, where there clearly is not a decent one.  If there were one we would likely not be leaving in the first place.

[Khun Han]

4 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

 

The stance- going for an impossible trade deal, where there clearly is not a decent one.  If there were one we would likely not be leaving in the first place.

 

A decent trade deal is the only major leverage the EU has. Without one, it's rock-hard brexit and a years-long battle to get any substantial money out of us.

[sandyf]

3 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

How is May behaving like a spoiled child?

The ferocity of the speech stunned Westminster and sent shockwaves all the way to Brussels where senior figures remained tight-lipped in the wake of the attack, while domestic rivals accused Ms May of irresponsible electioneering and mimicking Donald Trump in “winding up” scraps with foreign leaders.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-news-theresa-may-uk-eu-new-low-relationhips-amid-pm-attack-a7716481.html

 

[mommysboy]

33 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

A decent trade deal is the only major leverage the EU has. Without one, it's rock-hard brexit and a years-long battle to get any substantial money out of us.

 

But there isn't one!

[sandyf]

3 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

Its the EU that keeps going on about how much the UK must pay to leave, and they never mention any reimbursement to the UK offsetting these (made up) figures....

 

You're probably right that when the final figure is far lower, May will be seen as having won the day - but that's entirely the EU's fault for coming up with these outlandish figures in the first place! 

"Its the EU that keeps going on about how much the UK must pay to leave,"

 

Therein lies the problem

 

Michel Barnier , the EU’s chief negotiator, has said no firm figure will be set until the end of the Brexit process and payments could be staggered.

 

From the FT - Brussels hoists gross Brexit ‘bill’ to €100bn - notice they label it as the "gross" brexit bill, I suppose that's journalistic licence but to what end.

 

From the Mirror - Brussels negotiators have upped the initial €60billion settlement by a further €40billion after including post- Brexit farm payments and admin fees following stricter demands by France and Germany, according to the Financial Times . - Notice according to the FT.

 

Who did you say keeps going on about it? Not the UK media by any chance.

 

As I said before, all the focus is on one side of the equation.

[Khun Han]

18 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

 

But there isn't one!

 

You'd have to believe that there is a deal which is mutually acceptable, otherwise there is no point in the upcoming negotiations.

[ilostmypassword]

Europe is growing faster than Brexit Britain 

The 19 economies that use the euro -- aka the eurozone -- expanded by 0.5% in the first three months of 2017 over the previous quarter. That's stronger than the equivalent 0.3% rate posted by the U.K.

[Grouse]

21 hours ago, Grouse said:

It's all falling in to place as I predicted.

 

The Con Party don't want a deal. They want what is now euphemistically called "clean" Brexit. The EU will be set up as intransigent and therefore the Cons have no choice.

 

I honestly believe that the EU is basically ambivalent. They just don't really care. The EU community is what matters. Porsche, BMW and Mercedes will be reassuringly more expensive. 

 

As for the dunderheeds ( note no N word!). They will of course be stuffed. Workers rights demolished, environmental regulations torn up a la Trump. Rising inequality.

 

BUT GREAT FOR EQUITIES!! Tally Ho! Pass the Bolly!

 

(BTW does one pass the port left to right? Or right to left? I can't remember! Good time to get some decent stuff laid down? Port that is....)

May's recent antics just reinforcing my opinion. Get ready for flouncing out and stating the UK will have a "clean" (disastrous) Brexit!

[sandyf]

15 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

You'd have to believe that there is a deal which is mutually acceptable, otherwise there is no point in the upcoming negotiations.

Distorted thinking. The "upcoming negotiations" as referred to in Article 50 are all about settling the accounts and putting the paperwork straight  for the future. Any future trading arrangement is a secondary issue, something that TM can't seem to get into her head.

 

1. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.

[sandyf]

13 minutes ago, Grouse said:

May's recent antics just reinforcing my opinion. Get ready for flouncing out and stating the UK will have a "clean" (disastrous) Brexit!

TM has a lot to answer for. She has repeatedly said that no deal is better than a bad deal an many have taken this as walking away from the EU. There is a big difference between the exit agreement and a trade deal, she can turn her back on the latter but must participate in the former. She has invoked Article 50 and under its terms she must negotiate an exit agreement which is in the hands of the European Council and European Parliament.

In other words the EU have the final say on how the UK leaves the EU, by invoking Article 50 she effectively agreed to those terms. However if it does not go her way she could always take it to the ECJ.

[Naam]

4 hours ago, Flustered said:

Basic law for who? (and you don't need to translate, I studied Latin at school and a more accurate translation is "promises" not "agreements").

your Latin teacher might rotate in his grave reading your translation, i just smile

the English word derived from the Latin root:

Quote

pact

pakt/

noun

noun: pact; plural noun: pacts

1. a formal agreement between individuals or parties.

next!

[Naam]

3 hours ago, Khun Han said:

A decent trade deal is the only major leverage the EU has.

exactly that will be the result.

[SheungWan]

4 hours ago, Flustered said:

Basic law for who? (and you don't need to translate, I studied Latin at school and a more accurate translation is "promises" not "agreements").

 

I don't recall any 2000 year old Roman laws being in place.

 

Just another bit of spinning and emotional blackmail.

 

 

Unfortunately, as they say, a little learning is a dangerous thing........

 

17 minutes ago, Naam said:

your Latin teacher might rotate in his grave reading your translation, i just smile

the English word derived from the Latin root:

next!

Rotate he would.

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-does-pacta-sunt-servanda-mean.htm

 

Edited May 4, 2017 by SheungWan

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, SheungWan said:

Unfortunately, as they say, a little learning is a dangerous thing........

 

Rotate he would.

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-does-pacta-sunt-servanda-mean.htm

 

Amo is not ammunition

[Khun Han]

10 hours ago, ilostmypassword said:

Europe is growing faster than Brexit Britain 

The 19 economies that use the euro -- aka the eurozone -- expanded by 0.5% in the first three months of 2017 over the previous quarter. That's stronger than the equivalent 0.3% rate posted by the U.K.

 

Oh no it isn't!!

 

http://news.sky.com/story/economy-picks-up-steam-as-services-sector-growth-recovers-survey-10862463

[Throatwobbler]

19 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

Oh no it isn't!!

 

http://news.sky.com/story/economy-picks-up-steam-as-services-sector-growth-recovers-survey-10862463

I would not take a story from a Murdoch backed company as gospel. After all he has to keep feeding the people the lie that Brexit is working to get all the money he can until the people wake up. Seems to me you want an Australian to tell you what is good for Britain.

 

Hers is an article to counter your argument. I am not sure if CNN have any real Bias in this argument. If so then please let me know.

http://money.cnn.com/2017/05/03/news/economy/europe-eurozone-gdp-brexit-britain/

[Khun Han]

2 hours ago, Throatwobbler said:

I would not take a story from a Murdoch backed company as gospel. After all he has to keep feeding the people the lie that Brexit is working to get all the money he can until the people wake up. Seems to me you want an Australian to tell you what is good for Britain.

 

Hers is an article to counter your argument. I am not sure if CNN have any real Bias in this argument. If so then please let me know.

http://money.cnn.com/2017/05/03/news/economy/europe-eurozone-gdp-brexit-britain/

 

What on earth are you going on about? It's a report on the latest Markit PMI index for the UK. Markit is not a Murdoch vessel The April figure is 0.6% growth, which is better than the Eurozone growth of 0.5%. If you don't like this statistic, take your concerns up with Markit.

 

Your CNN link, from yesterday, is now out of date. Markit released it's new figures today, and those figures show the UK economy growing faster than that of the Eurozone - FACT.

 

Same story from the Beeb:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39802976

Edited May 4, 2017 by Khun Han

[Grouse]

So she IS one of us