May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[dick dasterdly]

5 hours ago, sandyf said:

I would think that after 50 odd years the Findhorn Foundation has proved her wrong on that one, probably the most successful communist experiment of all time.

Its not concept of socialism that is the problem more to do with reality.

Obviously sandyf can speak for himself - but I assume he's talking about human nature taking over from idealism and good intentions?

 

In short, both the communist and socialists' ideals were taken over by those only interested in their own power and wealth.

 

Its the incredibly rare politician that isn't pursuing that career for anything other than their own power and wealth....

Edited May 1, 2017 by dick dasterdly

[Khun Han]

7 hours ago, SheungWan said:

 

Yes, always an excuse-me for some (BNP?) guys who will not be deflected from the idea of starving people into submission. Maybe once the immigrants have been starved out then provide a few cattle trucks to transport them east. That will certainly add to the historical 'charm'.

 

Nah. I don't want to starve them. I want to see them getting free social housing ahead of the queue, plenty of emergency social security payments, and free taxi vouchers to facilitate their rather large families getting into the town centres so that they can earn a living.

[Khun Han]

3 hours ago, Orac said:

 

She is not evil, just has a poor track record of competence and integrity.

She was Home Secretary for many years and presided over one debacle after another whilst demonstrating appalling management over the UK Border Agency and immigration whilst using the EU as a scapegoat for her inability to run just a part of UK govt rather than the whole shooting match.

Her public statements supporting remaining in the EU prior to the referendum put her integrity on display - either she was lying then and seeking to mislead the UK public or she is using the brexit situation to further her own personal cause now despite not believing it is in the country's best interests.

 

 

She made it quite clear from the start of her premiership that The People had spoken, she had heeded what they said and why they said it, and promised to act accordingly. That's not dishonesty: it's a politician, for once, acting with integrity.

[dick dasterdly]

3 hours ago, Orac said:

 

She is not evil, just has a poor track record of competence and integrity.

She was Home Secretary for many years and presided over one debacle after another whilst demonstrating appalling management over the UK Border Agency and immigration whilst using the EU as a scapegoat for her inability to run just a part of UK govt rather than the whole shooting match.

Her public statements supporting remaining in the EU prior to the referendum put her integrity on display - either she was lying then and seeking to mislead the UK public or she is using the brexit situation to further her own personal cause now despite not believing it is in the country's best interests.

 

The typical politician?

 

May was luke warm about the remain cause and is now PM.

 

A political play - undoubtedly - but at the moment she's supporting the result of the referendum and so the best chance that brexit will be pursued.

[Orac]

The typical politician?
 
May was luke warm about the remain cause and is now PM.
 
A political play - undoubtedly - but at the moment she's supporting the result of the referendum and so the best chance that brexit will be pursued.

Indeed, a typical politician so not to be trusted.

Here are her arguments for staying in the EU which I found quite compelling. If she truly thinks this then she must also believe that what she is doing now is not in the country's best interests so not exactly a leader with conviction.

http://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2016/04/theresa-mays-speech-on-brexit-full-text.html

[Orac]

Some details of the meeting between May and Junker last week have come out and don't make good reading.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/francescoppola/2017/04/30/the-uk-government-is-completely-deluded-about-brexit/#13313ac14f04

[pitrevie]

17 minutes ago, Orac said:

 

Indeed, a typical politician so not to be trusted.

Here are her arguments for staying in the EU which I found quite compelling. If she truly thinks this then she must also believe that what she is doing now is not in the country's best interests so not exactly a leader with conviction.

http://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2016/04/theresa-mays-speech-on-brexit-full-text.html
 

 

Agreed at least you could say Thatcher was a conviction politician. Boris wrote column after column about staying in the EU but as soon as he saw his chance he took it think that he wasn't going to win but he would come out of it as the natural successor to Cameron having secured the support of the right wing. May hardly rose her head about the parapet during the referendum despite being very pro EU and Leadsom another who had a conversion to the Brexit cause but was another pro EU politician. 

Makes you laugh when you get posters stating May is a politician of integrity. 

[pitrevie]

1 hour ago, Orac said:

Some details of the meeting between May and Junker last week have come out and don't make good reading.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/francescoppola/2017/04/30/the-uk-government-is-completely-deluded-about-brexit/#13313ac14f04
 

The funny bit is that the undemocratic EU wants to publish the documents to inform the member states and the EU Parliament and PM May wants everything to be confidential. Mushroom diplomacy coming up.

 

May wanted to work through the Brexit talks in monthly, 4-day blocks; all confidential until the end of the process. Commission said impossible to reconcile this with need to square off member states & European Parliament, so documents must be published.

[Khun Han]

1 hour ago, Orac said:

Some details of the meeting between May and Junker last week have come out and don't make good reading.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/francescoppola/2017/04/30/the-uk-government-is-completely-deluded-about-brexit/#13313ac14f04
 

 

The only useful thing about that absurdly subjective piece of writing is that it highlights the intransigence and 'living in a world of their own' mentality of the top EU goons. Otherwise, it's what, in the days of printed press, used to be referred to as toilet paper.

[shanesox]

Agreed at least you could say Thatcher was a conviction politician. Boris wrote column after column about staying in the EU but as soon as he saw his chance he took it think that he wasn't going to win but he would come out of it as the natural successor to Cameron having secured the support of the right wing. May hardly rose her head about the parapet during the referendum despite being very pro EU and Leadsom another who had a conversion to the Brexit cause but was another pro EU politician. 

Makes you laugh when you get posters stating May is a politician of integrity. 

Nonsense. Johnson changed the more he saw the real EU! Juncker and Tusk screwed Cameron offering nothing substantial, this time May will have the backing of the electorate to tell that failing experiment the "EU " to go to hell. "No divorce pay off, we don't need you and go and find the 60-80 billion a year you relied on from the Uk to waste from some other lazy inefficient country"

 

 

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[pitrevie]

8 hours ago, shanesox said:

Nonsense. Johnson changed the more he saw the real EU! Juncker and Tusk screwed Cameron offering nothing substantial, this time May will have the backing of the electorate to tell that failing experiment the "EU " to go to hell. "No divorce pay off, we don't need you and go and find the 60-80 billion a year you relied on from the Uk to waste from some other lazy inefficient country"

 

 

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Next you will be telling me that Johnson is a politician of integrity. He changed his mind on the EU he changed his mind on TTIP and  Johnson got sacked from the Times for fabricating an article. In the campaign he promised the UK would remain part of the single market, now ditched, that the UK would reduce immigrant numbers now ditched and something about 350 million, gone forever.

[sandyf]

19 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

I followed the Findhorn Foundations website https://www.findhorn.org/about-us/

 

and while it is fine it really only refers to one small village in Scotland whereas socialism is for the Labour Party's version for the whole of the UK.

 

My comment was aimed at this statement. "The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money"  rather than any particular view.

Neither was it in support of the Findhorn Foundation, I was there when they set up and basically nothing more than a bunch of hippies but they have established a business model to ensure they will never run out of money, the ethics are questionable.

The point being that it makes the statement inaccurate. Goes to show that no matter how good a PM is you shouldn't really put much say in their comments, or start quoting them.

 

[JAG]

18 hours ago, Grouse said:

Thatcher was consumed by monetarist dogma and game theory. She shut down mining, ship building and steel MUCH too quickly. OUR oil bonanza was wasted on dole money rather than investing in new technology based industries such as computing, digital electronics and semiconductors. What was Thatcher's clear view for the UK again? Oh, I remember: "There's no such thing as society". Well she delivered on that! Thanks!

"There is no such thing as society" is a jolly convenient quote, such a good hook to hang a sneer on isn't 't?

 

Look at it in the context of what she actually said, I will quote the full text for you:

 

"I think we've been through a period where too many people have been given to understand that if they have a problem, it's the government's job to cope with it. 'I have a problem, I'll get a grant.' 'I'm homeless, the government must house me.' They're casting their problem on society. And, you know, there is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first. It's our duty to look after ourselves and then, also to look after our neighbour. People have got the entitlements too much in mind, without the obligations. There's no such thing as entitlement, unless someone has first met an obligation."

 

But then, perhaps we shouldn't let reality get in the way of this particular left wing urban legend....

 

As for mining, shipbuilding and steel, mining was destroyed by a union (or more particularly a union leader) who was prepared to kill the industry in pursuit of his own particular political goal (and what an own goal that turned out to be!); shipbuilding and steel were utterly uncompetitive, hamstrung by incompetent management, belligerent union leaders and entirely dependant on lavish government subsidies to stay in business.

Edited May 2, 2017 by JAG

[shanesox]

Next you will be telling me that Johnson is a politician of integrity. He changed his mind on the EU he changed his mind on TTIP and  Johnson got sacked from the Times for fabricating an article. In the campaign he promised the UK would remain part of the single market, now ditched, that the UK would reduce immigrant numbers now ditched and something about 350 million, gone forever.

All fabricated nonsense from a remainer who can't stomach the democrat result nearly one year on! The real issue is how the EU under Juncker wants to punish the UK for daring to leave its failing club! A 20th Century idea of De Gaule destined for the dustbin in 21st Century!


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[pitrevie]

1 minute ago, shanesox said:

All fabricated nonsense from a remainer who can't stomach the democrat result nearly one year on! The real issue is how the EU under Juncker wants to punish the UK for daring to leave its failing club! A 20th Century idea of De Gaule destined for the dustbin in 21st Century!


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Fabricated no I don't think so just a matter of record.

[ilostmypassword]

18 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

Really?  I'd argue the opposite.

 

Back in 1975/6 the UK was a reasonably high wage economy.  Hence the backlash against unions etc.

 

Nowadays (and for the last few decades) its been a low wage economy.

Neither post is true. What's happened is a huge rise in inequality. But that's the fault of domestic politics. 

[SheungWan]

55 minutes ago, JAG said:

"There is no such thing as society" is a jolly convenient quote, such a good hook to hang a sneer on isn't 't?

 

Look at it in the context of what she actually said, I will quote the full text for you:

 

"I think we've been through a period where too many people have been given to understand that if they have a problem, it's the government's job to cope with it. 'I have a problem, I'll get a grant.' 'I'm homeless, the government must house me.' They're casting their problem on society. And, you know, there is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first. It's our duty to look after ourselves and then, also to look after our neighbour. People have got the entitlements too much in mind, without the obligations. There's no such thing as entitlement, unless someone has first met an obligation."

 

But then, perhaps we shouldn't let reality get in the way of this particular left wing urban legend....

 

As for mining, shipbuilding and steel, mining was destroyed by a union (or more particularly a union leader) who was prepared to kill the industry in pursuit of his own particular political goal (and what an own goal that turned out to be!); shipbuilding and steel were utterly uncompetitive, hamstrung by incompetent management, belligerent union leaders and entirely dependant on lavish government subsidies to stay in business.

You know, the surrounding part of Thatcher's above contribution has resonance for today, but even now it gets upended by that one sentence which doesn't look good however you play it. Bit of a Curate's Egg really.

Edited May 2, 2017 by SheungWan

[ilostmypassword]

22 hours ago, vogie said:

I honestly think it is too early to judge TM (but from where I'm sitting she seems to be doing ok), she has the hardest job a PM has ever faced since the last war, but for people to be calling her evil defies all logic. Lets be honest MT was not the most popular PM when she first came to power, but she soon prooved what a great and strong leader she was. I think TM will follow in MT footsteps and people need to forget their differences and get behind her to secure the best deal for the UK. 

People may have been wondering why the stern lecture by Merkel. Well, someone leaked the confidential records to the German press.  It turns out that Teresa May was doing her best Donald Trump impersonation when she met with the Juncker. He was horrified by her lack of knowledge of basic issues.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jean-claude-juncker-theresa-may-brexit-negotiations-downing-street-dinner-a7711526.html

 

[shanesox]

You know, the surrounding part of Thatcher's above contribution has resonance for today, but even now it gets upended by that one sentence which doesn't look good however you play it. Bit of a Curate's Egg really.

Yes! The nanny state! After 13 years of Labour the benefit bill ballooned to unsustainable levels!


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[Grouse]

58 minutes ago, JAG said:

"There is no such thing as society" is a jolly convenient quote, such a good hook to hang a sneer on isn't 't?

 

Look at it in the context of what she actually said, I will quote the full text for you:

 

"I think we've been through a period where too many people have been given to understand that if they have a problem, it's the government's job to cope with it. 'I have a problem, I'll get a grant.' 'I'm homeless, the government must house me.' They're casting their problem on society. And, you know, there is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first. It's our duty to look after ourselves and then, also to look after our neighbour. People have got the entitlements too much in mind, without the obligations. There's no such thing as entitlement, unless someone has first met an obligation."

 

But then, perhaps we shouldn't let reality get in the way of this particular left wing urban legend....

 

As for mining, shipbuilding and steel, mining was destroyed by a union (or more particularly a union leader) who was prepared to kill the industry in pursuit of his own particular political goal (and what an own goal that turned out to be!); shipbuilding and steel were utterly uncompetitive, hamstrung by incompetent management, belligerent union leaders and entirely dependant on lavish government subsidies to stay in business.

Oh dear. You are so wrong on so many levels it's almost embarrassing. It does go some way to explain why numpties vote the way they do; they really don't understand. No malice, just incorrect in their view of history. I will respond in more detail later...

 

Are you another former military type BTW? Just wondered...

[vogie]

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

Oh dear. You are so wrong on so many levels it's almost embarrassing. It does go some way to explain why numpties vote the way they do; they really don't understand. No malice, just incorrect in their view of history. I will respond in more detail later...

 

Are you another former military type BTW? Just wondered...

By your derogatory remark of "military type" what do you mean? Do you mean someone who is proud of their country and patriotic, not someone like you who has openly said that he is ashamed of being English, shame on you grouse! And when we get "No malice" mentioned, you can guarantee there is malice intended! 

[SheungWan]

5 minutes ago, shanesox said:

Yes! The nanny state! After 13 years of Labour the benefit bill ballooned to unsustainable levels!


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It is true that rowing back entitlements is a very difficult thing to do, but the pressure today comes not so much from one political party but rather advances in medicine keeping people alive plus increased lengevity generated by higher standards of living. When State Retirement kicked in originally at 65 people in those days weren't expected on average to live much longer than 69. Theresa May shows (so far) no desire to grasp those nettles and in fact more inclined to play to a populist agenda so sticking it to Labour is just playing an old record.

[dick dasterdly]

15 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

People may have been wondering why the stern lecture by Merkel. Well, someone leaked the confidential records to the German press.  It turns out that Teresa May was doing her best Donald Trump impersonation when she met with the Juncker. He was horrified by her lack of knowledge of basic issues.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jean-claude-juncker-theresa-may-brexit-negotiations-downing-street-dinner-a7711526.html

 

A less than subtle attempt to stir up fears amongst British voters...

[JAG]

Oh dear. You are so wrong on so many levels it's almost embarrassing. It does go some way to explain why numpties vote the way they do; they really don't understand. No malice, just incorrect in their view of history. I will respond in more detail later...

 

Are you another former military type BTW? Just wondered...

 

As it happens I am "another former military type". If this is a problem for you well I am very sorry, you will have to live with it.

 

The astonishing patronizing condescension in your post is rather becoming your trademark, might I suggest that it masks any valid points which you may at times make.

 

Don't bother responding in detail later.

 

One final point. Referring continually to those whose views you disagree with as" numpties" is grossly offensive and unless I am mistaken in breach of forum rules. Perhaps you should stop? Personally as a "former military type" I would welcome the opportunity (were it not for forum rules" ) to respond with a variety of four letter epithets to sum you up.

 

[Scott]

Please keep the discussion civil or warnings and suspensions will be given.  

 

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

By your derogatory remark of "military type" what do you mean? Do you mean someone who is proud of their country and patriotic, not someone like you who has openly said that he is ashamed of being English, shame on you grouse! And when we get "No malice" mentioned, you can guarantee there is malice intended! 

Why do you always assume that I am being derogatory? I had no intention to cause offence in any way. I have no knoweledge of the military be it army, Air Force, navy, marines, engineers or whatever. However, I have noted that former military types on here are frequently, though not exclusively, pro Brexit. Again no intention to offend anyone. What else can I tell you? I had an uncle who died on D-Day +10, another was an RAF armourer with General Slim in Burma. My father was involved with Bletchley and the Y service. I was proud of the Falklands campaign. I am well read on history generally. 

 

And Yet, I'm increasingly ashamed of English attitudes. The dumbing down and Americanisation of so much and the loss of British society and values.

 

Sorry if I offended you. It was not my intention. OK?

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, JAG said:

 

As it happens I am "another former military type". If this is a problem for you well I am very sorry, you will have to live with it.

 

The astonishing patronizing condescension in your post is rather becoming your trademark, might I suggest that it masks any valid points which you may at times make.

 

Don't bother responding in detail later.

 

One final point. Referring continually to those whose views you disagree with as" numpties" is grossly offensive and unless I am mistaken in breach of forum rules. Perhaps you should stop? Personally as a "former military type" I would welcome the opportunity (were it not for forum rules" ) to respond with a variety of four letter epithets to sum you up.

 

Once again, I was just asking. No wish to offend you.

 

The Numpty expression is a witticism it is not an insult. It really means silly billy.

 

I am sorry to have offended you.

 

Mea Culpa

[billd766]

2 hours ago, vogie said:

By your derogatory remark of "military type" what do you mean? Do you mean someone who is proud of their country and patriotic, not someone like you who has openly said that he is ashamed of being English, shame on you grouse! And when we get "No malice" mentioned, you can guarantee there is malice intended! 

 

Your problem is that you didn't and don't agree with Grouse.

 

When that happens he goes into the automatic, insult the poster mode, which he has done as long as I have read some of his posts. I put him on my ignore list last year and only see his posts if anybody bothers to read them.

 

Like you, I am exmilitary. I was proud to serve my country for 25 years and I am still not ashamed of being patriotic and English from Dorset yeomanry peasant stock.

[Grouse]

2 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

Your problem is that you didn't and don't agree with Grouse.

 

When that happens he goes into the automatic, insult the poster mode, which he has done as long as I have read some of his posts. I put him on my ignore list last year and only see his posts if anybody bothers to read them.

 

Like you, I am exmilitary. I was proud to serve my country for 25 years and I am still not ashamed of being patriotic and English from Dorset yeomanry peasant stock.

All interesting stuff!

 

Maybe I am used to rhetoric and the thrust & parry of debate.

 

I will try again to temper my language. Honestly, I want to debate the issues not drive people away.

 

Sorry, what more can I say?

[vogie]

9 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

Your problem is that you didn't and don't agree with Grouse.

 

When that happens he goes into the automatic, insult the poster mode, which he has done as long as I have read some of his posts. I put him on my ignore list last year and only see his posts if anybody bothers to read them.

 

Like you, I am exmilitary. I was proud to serve my country for 25 years and I am still not ashamed of being patriotic and English from Dorset yeomanry peasant stock.

Bill you must unblock grouse immediately, his posts are a bit like watching an episode of Jeremy Kyle, we all hate the show but can't resist looking at how the disfunctional the families are.

 

Keeping to topic, the "military types" seem to be the ones in touch with reality on our divorce from brexit, whilst the lefties are only intent on disrailling the whole affair.