May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[vogie]

6 minutes ago, Grouse said:

OK, Thatchernomics 101

 

This is not off topic, my contention is that we ALL should be very clear about our history before making decisions about our future. Unintended consequences if you like.

 

Thatcher decimated much heavy industry at great cost and little net benefit just following monetarist dogma.

 

Take coal. Could we get coal cheaper from Brazil? But what about the total cost of the coal, the transportation, the redundancy lump sums, the unemployment benefits, the intangible social costs, the wrecked communities, the generational knock on harm? Yes Scargill was a pain in the arse, but ask yourself this: are German unions stronger?

 

What about ship building? Why is ship building profitable in Germany and Japan and Korea? Are they cheaper? Problem was, we built each ship as a bespoke Rolls Royce! Were Upper Clyde, Tyneside and Teesside workers over paid? I don't think so

 

What about Steel? Is that not a strategic industry? What about Manganese steels for tanks? Do you think we can still build a super gun? Can we build B2 vessels for chemical engineering? Sure, you can get cheaper steel from China but is that wise?

 

No, Thatcher squandered our oil bonanza on dole payments. Industries should have been reduced over 10 or 15 years and the oil money used for a sovereign fund and support for new industries. On Thatcher's watch, industry fell from 27% of GDP to about 9% today.

 

Also, she enabled unfettered growth of the city by Big Bang. No bad thing in someways but it was the precursor of the 2008 crash and vast costs to the country

 

No, Thatcher is no hero of mine.

Seriously grouse don't you think the unions had anything to do with the demise of the country. It got to a state where managers couldn't manage, the unions were running the show. Do you think the unions had anything to do with the collapse of the British car industry, mining coal that nobody wanted, holding the the country to ransom. The unions were far too powerful and Mrs Thatcher showed her strengths. She showed that the country came first, not some idealogy of a union boss.

I really think you have set yourself up on this post.

[Flustered]

9 hours ago, Grouse said:

Oh dear. You are so wrong on so many levels it's almost embarrassing. It does go some way to explain why numpties vote the way they do; they really don't understand. No malice, just incorrect in their view of history. I will respond in more detail later...

 

Are you another former military type BTW? Just wondered...

Had you ever considered that us "military types" have been exposed to a wider view of Europe than most. Serving in BAOR, SHAPE and Cyprus I along with many have mixed thoroughly with Europeans of many different countries. We have seen European culture (country specific) and now we see the dumbing down of Europe and the gradually morphing into a Brussels one size fits all. This new Europe is not a pretty sight. I am a proud Scaleyback who has spent a lot of time in various European countries and I have very firm ideas on what I see as the conquest of Europe by Frau Merkel with the usual historic collaborators sucking up to her.

 

For me, the jury is out on Theresa May as she has not been in charge long enough to show whether she will be a good or bad PM. All of those lefties who castigate her should at least wait and see (a Tony Blair saying). So far, she has remained calm and cool despite the attacks from Europe insulting the British and trying to get her to rise to the bait.

 

British, served in the colours and proud of it.

[pitrevie]

Just now, Flustered said:

Had you ever considered that us "military types" have been exposed to a wider view of Europe than most. Serving in BAOR, SHAPE and Cyprus I along with many have mixed thoroughly with Europeans of many different countries. We have seen European culture (country specific) and now we see the dumbing down of Europe and the gradually morphing into a Brussels one size fits all. This new Europe is not a pretty sight. I am a proud Scaleyback who has spent a lot of time in various European countries and I have very firm ideas on what I see as the conquest of Europe by Frau Merkel with the usual historic collaborators sucking up to her.

 

For me, the jury is out on Theresa May as she has not been in charge long enough to show whether she will be a good or bad PM. All of those lefties who castigate her should at least wait and see (a Tony Blair saying). So far, she has remained calm and cool despite the attacks from Europe insulting the British and trying to get her to rise to the bait.

 

British, served in the colours and proud of it.

Each to his own I also spent several years in Europe serving and since my service days I have spent periods almost every year returning there particularly Germany. Not the Europe I would ever recognize from your description.

[Grouse]

6 minutes ago, Flustered said:

Had you ever considered that us "military types" have been exposed to a wider view of Europe than most. Serving in BAOR, SHAPE and Cyprus I along with many have mixed thoroughly with Europeans of many different countries. We have seen European culture (country specific) and now we see the dumbing down of Europe and the gradually morphing into a Brussels one size fits all. This new Europe is not a pretty sight. I am a proud Scaleyback who has spent a lot of time in various European countries and I have very firm ideas on what I see as the conquest of Europe by Frau Merkel with the usual historic collaborators sucking up to her.

 

For me, the jury is out on Theresa May as she has not been in charge long enough to show whether she will be a good or bad PM. All of those lefties who castigate her should at least wait and see (a Tony Blair saying). So far, she has remained calm and cool despite the attacks from Europe insulting the British and trying to get her to rise to the bait.

 

British, served in the colours and proud of it.

Any dealings with RSRE Malvern?

 

Can't say more than that ?

[vogie]

2 minutes ago, pitrevie said:

Each to his own I also spent several years in Europe serving and since my service days I have spent periods almost every year returning there particularly Germany. Not the Europe I would ever recognize from your description.

Maybe our experiences are subjective, if not surely we would all think the same?

[Flustered]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

Any dealings with RSRE Malvern?

 

Can't say more than that ?

Sister establishment

[Flustered]

4 hours ago, AlexRich said:

 

Ah, Johnson! Perhaps the most self-serving and dishonest politician of our times. The referendum for him was merely the opportunity to curry favour with the Conservative Party membership ... who he would need to vote him into leadership when Cameron finally resigned. What a jolly wheeze it would be to be the gallant loser in the referendum campaign, and a year or so later take the leadership? Even better that the so-called right wing Euro hating Tory "bastards" would not be able to blackmail him for a referendum ... as we'd only just had one. So he used his well-crafted "loveable buffoon" image and led the charge ... his face the day after the vote was a sight to behold. If you're going to lie, make it a big one ... something that Trump also understood very well.

I must admit that after the first few words of description I thought you were talking about Alan Johnson.

 

Must be something in the name.

[AlexRich]

1 minute ago, Flustered said:

I must admit that after the first few words of description I thought you were talking about Alan Johnson.

 

Must be something in the name.

There's an element of self-serving in all of them ... but this guy is the most blatant of all. Cornyn's another one, never toed the party line as a backbencher, yet expects everyone else to do so now that he's leader. 

[Scott]

Please stay on topic and exercise care in the terms used.   References to a political  group with less-than-desirable terms may be within the forum rules, but making such references to individual posters is not.  

[sandyf]

13 hours ago, Grouse said:

Any dealings with RSRE Malvern?

 

Can't say more than that ?

The views of the rest of us that served around Europe in places like Germany, Denmark, Sardinia, Malta & Cyprus don't count for much. It makes you wonder why anyone who was actually there would want to return to the major problems that existed at the time.

 

BTW. A friend of mine from school got a place at the radar establishment in 1964, went to visit him once, nice place from what I could remember.

[sandyf]

16 hours ago, vogie said:

Forgive me for asking, is that so you can have a scexit?

Apologies for going above your head.

It may help if you tried to understand the posts, I have only ever argued that Scotland should have the right to decide what action to take, not Westminster.

Please do nor try and predict what my views on the next white paper would be.

[vogie]

20 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Apologies for going above your head.

It may help if you tried to understand the posts, I have only ever argued that Scotland should have the right to decide what action to take, not Westminster.

Please do nor try and predict what my views on the next white paper would be.

Thanks for the apologies, no need really.

[Grouse]

Meanwhile, according to the FT, the EU has increased its estimate of Brexit charges to 100M!

[Flustered]

4 hours ago, sandyf said:

BTW. A friend of mine from school got a place at the radar establishment in 1964, went to visit him once, nice place from what I could remember.

The only problem with some of these was that they were within a few kilometers of the East German border and it was only NATO that kept the USSR out. The same NATO that the EU will eventually replace with a European military force which without the Americans on board is as good as a slap in the face with a wet fish.

 

Now you can also see how the EU is trying it's hardest to ruin the talks They have no interest in the UK getting a fair deal. New divorce costs?  100 billion Euros. That's right 100 Billion Euros

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/britains-brexit-divorce-bill-set-10344488

 

TM needs to tell Junkers and Merkel to stuff the EU up where the sun doesn't shine. They are taking the p*ss. What they are trying to do is to scare off any other country that wants independence from a dictatorship run from Brussels.

Edited May 3, 2017 by Flustered

[dick dasterdly]

43 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Meanwhile, according to the FT, the EU has increased its estimate of Brexit charges to 100M!

Haven't read the article, but REDUCED surely?

 

The bill was previously around 60 bn.

[Grouse]

11 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Haven't read the article, but REDUCED surely?

 

The bill was previously around 60 bn.

we all make mistakes, particularly me!

 

Billion obviously, Euro....

[3NUMBAS]

The divorce bill has now climbed to 100 billion so it's not gonna happen ...Plus they want farm payments for years after leaving so determined are they to keep screwing the UK for cash payments till kingdom come 

[dick dasterdly]

5 minutes ago, Flustered said:

The only problem with some of these was that they were within a few kilometers of the East German border and it was only NATO that kept the USSR out. The same NATO that the EU will eventually replace with a European military force which without the Americans on board is as good as a slap in the face with a wet fish.

 

Now you can also see how the EU is trying it's hardest to ruin the talks They have no interest in the UK getting a fair deal. New divorce costs?  100 billion Euros. That's right 100 Billion Euros

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/britains-brexit-divorce-bill-set-10344488

 

TM needs to tell Junkers and Merkel to stuff the EU up where the sun doesn't shine. They are taking the p*ss. What they are trying to do is to scare off any other country that wants independence from a dictatorship run from Brussels.

Re. the last paragraph - she did that at the 'dinner' with Juncker who then released her comments as proof that she was 'delusional' for not accepting the EU's 'wish list' etc.

 

Of course, the media supporting remain/remainers/opposition parties lapped this up (roll eyes)....

 

It seems to be biting them in the bum now though, as leave media (and thinking people) have pointed out the ridiculousness of Juncker's leaked 'concerns' following the dinner .

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, Grouse said:

we all make mistakes, particularly me!

 

Billion obviously, Euro....

Good grief!  They're seriously ratcheting up this ridiculous line of argument?! 

[pitrevie]

However its the dictatorship in Brussels that apparently wants all the discussions out in the open on account of having to keep the undemocratic EU parliament appraised of progress and approval whereas out PM wants everything kept confidential and out of sight of our own free democratic parliament and electorate. Rather odd isn't it.

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, 3NUMBAS said:

The divorce bill has now climbed to 100 billion so it's not gonna happen ...Plus they want farm payments for years after leaving so determined are they to keep screwing the UK for cash payments till kingdom come 

It does appear as if the EU is doing its best to force the UK into an immediate, hard brexit .

 

Having said that, its all talk to suit their agenda - and things are likely to change once May is elected with a (likely) even larger majority and serious negotiating starts.

[Flustered]

3 minutes ago, pitrevie said:

However its the dictatorship in Brussels that apparently wants all the discussions out in the open on account of having to keep the undemocratic EU parliament appraised of progress and approval whereas out PM wants everything kept confidential and out of sight of our own free democratic parliament and electorate. Rather odd isn't it.

You have obviously never been involved in negotiating large contracts.

 

You do not keep on drip feeding the current state of affairs for all to see that makes it impossible for the negotiating team to do their job properly.  Negotiations take place behind closed doors, the teams being briefed on their remit and the final results are then submitted for approval by those in charge.

 

TM is doing this in a professional and correct manner unlike the amateurs in Brussels who are making a mockery of the process.

 

Brussels are out to destroy these talks before they even get underway just to warn off any other country who wants to take back it's sovereign rights.

[sandyf]

37 minutes ago, Flustered said:

The only problem with some of these was that they were within a few kilometers of the East German border and it was only NATO that kept the USSR out. The same NATO that the EU will eventually replace with a European military force which without the Americans on board is as good as a slap in the face with a wet fish.

 

Now you can also see how the EU is trying it's hardest to ruin the talks They have no interest in the UK getting a fair deal. New divorce costs?  100 billion Euros. That's right 100 Billion Euros

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/britains-brexit-divorce-bill-set-10344488

 

TM needs to tell Junkers and Merkel to stuff the EU up where the sun doesn't shine. They are taking the p*ss. What they are trying to do is to scare off any other country that wants independence from a dictatorship run from Brussels.

Do not quote me and then make irrelevant comments.

[AlexRich]

The referendum debate was a very poor one, on both sides. No one mentioned an exit payment ... on either side. 

[Flustered]

Just now, sandyf said:

Do not quote me and then make irrelevant comments.

?????

[Flustered]

1 minute ago, AlexRich said:

The referendum debate was a very poor one, on both sides. No one mentioned an exit payment ... on either side. 

I totally agree.

 

Both sides were scared stiff of raising certain subjects as they had no idea of the outcome. Cameron had failed to get any satisfaction from Frau Merkel and others and had nothing more to offer the British public. The amazing thing about this is that for just a few concessions, the UK would have stayed in the EU but that is not the EU way. It's the EU way or nothing at all and as nearly all of our vetoes had been given away by Blair and Brown, we were toothless.

 

The referendum debate was in itself a joke on all sides.

[sandyf]

6 minutes ago, Flustered said:

?????

Like many you do not consider the context of a comment, just open your mouth.

My comment was in response to a reference regarding RSRE Malvern. Please point out what part of your post pertained to that reference. 

[Basil B]

26 minutes ago, pitrevie said:

However its the dictatorship in Brussels that apparently wants all the discussions out in the open on account of having to keep the undemocratic EU parliament appraised of progress and approval whereas out PM wants everything kept confidential and out of sight of our own free democratic parliament and electorate. Rather odd isn't it.

Who is doing the leaking???

 

Do not forget we have an election in 36 days.

 

Brussels trying to scare the British electorate to vote against the Tory's and a hard brexit or Tory's trying to get the electorate anti Europe and voting for Maggie May???

[dick dasterdly]

12 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

The referendum debate was a very poor one, on both sides. No one mentioned an exit payment ... on either side. 

Of course not - at that point nobody 'important' thought that the referendum result would be brexit!

 

Hence the lack of any plan by the UK government in the event that the vote went against their recommendations.

 

 

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

Meanwhile, according to the FT, the EU has increased its estimate of Brexit charges to 100M!

 

Ah well, they've shown their hand really, and its got nothing to do with finding a reasonable solution.