May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[mommysboy]

3 hours ago, SheungWan said:

It is true that rowing back entitlements is a very difficult thing to do, but the pressure today comes not so much from one political party but rather advances in medicine keeping people alive plus increased lengevity generated by higher standards of living. When State Retirement kicked in originally at 65 people in those days weren't expected on average to live much longer than 69. Theresa May shows (so far) no desire to grasp those nettles and in fact more inclined to play to a populist agenda so sticking it to Labour is just playing an old record.

Yes, people are living much longer and with chronic illness, which is costly.  Its also true to say that real jobs are being eroded by robotics, and income inequality is rising. 

[mommysboy]

31 minutes ago, vogie said:

Bill you must unblock grouse immediately, his posts are a bit like watching an episode of Jeremy Kyle, we all hate the show but can't resist looking at how the disfunctional the families are.

 

Keeping to topic, the "military types" seem to be the ones in touch with reality on our divorce from brexit, whilst the lefties are only intent on disrailling the whole affair.

 

I'll attempt to grasp the thorny nettle.  First, let me say despite my left wing beliefs I am very pro strong defence spending.  I believe that the forces can also provide exceptional opportunities to people and excellent vocational training.

 

But I do agree perhaps the military and politics do not go well together.

 

On this forum, two posters spring to mind who have served, and both hold distinctly right wing views that could not be classed as moderate imo.  it's not the holding of the views, but the dogmatic insistence that others must agree or be cast as 'flakey', or whatever.

 

(Edit: One of the things I like about Thailand is seeing more uniforms, even down to the postman, or the white of civil service.  I find it reassuring.  It reinforces communual solidarity. )

Edited May 2, 2017 by mommysboy

[dick dasterdly]

48 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Once again, I was just asking. No wish to offend you.

 

The Numpty expression is a witticism it is not an insult. It really means silly billy.

 

I am sorry to have offended you.

 

Mea Culpa

I'm hoping that this doesn't fall foul of the mod's warning - but "numpty" is not a witticism - even though that may be your idea of wit .

[dick dasterdly]

18 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Yes, people are living much longer and with chronic illness, which is costly.  Its also true to say that real jobs are being eroded by robotics, and income inequality is rising. 

Even more true to say that many UK governments have supported reducing the costs of big business - i.e. keeping salaries down/reducing pension schemes.

 

Open borders made it even easier to keep salaries very low.

 

Edit - For those at the bottom and the middle of course.  Salaries and pensions for those at the very top have continued unabated - and the politicians responsible have enjoyed consultancies/directorships from said 'big business'....

Edited May 2, 2017 by dick dasterdly

[billd766]

39 minutes ago, vogie said:

Bill you must unblock grouse immediately, his posts are a bit like watching an episode of Jeremy Kyle, we all hate the show but can't resist looking at how the disfunctional the families are.

 

Keeping to topic, the "military types" seem to be the ones in touch with reality on our divorce from brexit, whilst the lefties are only intent on disrailling the whole affair.

 

I can always click on his posts to open them. However his posts are like exercise to me. I know I should really but TBH I can't be bothered.

[mommysboy]

1 minute ago, dick dasterdly said:

Even more true to say that many UK governments have supported reducing the costs of big business - i.e. keeping salaries down/reducing pension schemes.

 

Open borders made it even easier to keep salaries very low.

 

You make a fundamental point about big business (often fierce critics of anything that smacks of socialism or market intervention), but who effectively are being subsidized by UK government to employ people, and who appear to have been the recipients of tax cuts, whilst making big and unevenly distributed profits.

 

Open borders are an issue of course, but it is regrettably true to say that economic migrants fulfill jobs that English people ( and it commonly is English) won't do.  Also, in order to compete wages must be low.  The failure of government is in providing cheap, social housing imo.

[pitrevie]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

Bill you must unblock grouse immediately, his posts are a bit like watching an episode of Jeremy Kyle, we all hate the show but can't resist looking at how the disfunctional the families are.

 

Keeping to topic, the "military types" seem to be the ones in touch with reality on our divorce from brexit, whilst the lefties are only intent on disrailling the whole affair.

Sorry to disillusion you but I am also a "military type" and I am not in favour of Brexit and neither do I think is it anything to do with a lack of patriotism something that is pushed over and over again on this forum. As Kenneth Clarke remarked, suddenly he has become "an enemy of the people". Since when does disagreeing with a course of action imply lack of patriotism, I thought one of the hallmarks of a democracy was being able to disagree. I more often that not found myself having voted for the losing side in a general election, does that mean I am not allowed to criticise the government for the next 5 years otherwise I would be accused of derailing it?

David Davis said nations 'not democracies' if they can't change their mind

[vogie]

10 minutes ago, pitrevie said:

Sorry to disillusion you but I am also a "military type" and I am not in favour of Brexit and neither do I think is it anything to do with a lack of patriotism something that is pushed over and over again on this forum. As Kenneth Clarke remarked, suddenly he has become "an enemy of the people". Since when does disagreeing with a course of action imply lack of patriotism, I thought one of the hallmarks of a democracy was being able to disagree. I more often that not found myself having voted for the losing side in a general election, does that mean I am not allowed to criticise the government for the next 5 years otherwise I would be accused of derailing it?

David Davis said nations 'not democracies' if they can't change their mind

How do you know if you are a "military type" or not when it has not been established what that terminology means. Grouse has not answered the question as to the meaning, why don't you ask him? 

[pitrevie]

6 minutes ago, vogie said:

How do you know if you are a "military type" or not when it has not been established what that terminology means. Grouse has not answered the question as to the meaning, why don't you ask him? 

I think we all know what is being referred to, someone who has served in the military and that I have done.

[vogie]

Just now, pitrevie said:

I think we all know what is being referred to, someone who has served in the military and that I have done.

Why don't you ask him just to be sure, most people would think it was a less than respectful remark. I'm sure there are ex postmen on here, why didn't he say 'postmen types' I think you know why he said it, but you tend to agree with everything he says so you'd be reluctant to ask him. But we are going off topic, over and out.

[dick dasterdly]

58 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

 

You make a fundamental point about big business (often fierce critics of anything that smacks of socialism or market intervention), but who effectively are being subsidized by UK government to employ people, and who appear to have been the recipients of tax cuts, whilst making big and unevenly distributed profits.

 

Open borders are an issue of course, but it is regrettably true to say that economic migrants fulfill jobs that English people ( and it commonly is English) won't do.  Also, in order to compete wages must be low.  The failure of government is in providing cheap, social housing imo.

Disagree with the last paragraph.

 

As long as migrants from poor countries are allowed to work in wealthier EU countries (for the lowest possible salaries) - its going to be a problem, and has nothing do with the English being too lazy to do those jobs as implied by your post.

 

It also has to be mentioned that Brit families are unable to survive (in their country!) on the lowest possible salaries paid by employers - which nowadays require a top-up in benefits from the welfare state.....

[pitrevie]

6 minutes ago, vogie said:

Why don't you ask him just to be sure, most people would think it was a less than respectful remark. I'm sure there are ex postmen on here, why didn't he say 'postmen types' I think you know why he said it, but you tend to agree with everything he says so you'd be reluctant to ask him. But we are going off topic, over and out.

Why do I need to ask him when I have already explained that my understanding is that he was referred to people who had served in the military.  Nothing about agreeing with him or not. However if he had another meaning then I stand corrected and I am sure by now he would have stepped in and corrected my understanding.

As to agreeing with everything he says, another laughable statement. However I guess that never happens with you Brexit independently minded types.

[dick dasterdly]

Meanwhile the EU is claiming that the UK is delusional - and leaking stories about Juncker's view of the conversation during a 'dinner' !

 

Hardly suprising that when actually reading about his 'gripes' - it boils down to May not rolling over and accepting the EU negotiation list/the demand for 60bn before trade negotiations begin/she wanted UK and EU citizen rights in other countries to be agreed quickly.  Junker preferred that this would take months....

Edited May 2, 2017 by dick dasterdly

[vogie]

8 minutes ago, pitrevie said:

Why do I need to ask him when I have already explained that my understanding is that he was referred to people who had served in the military.  Nothing about agreeing with him or not. However if he had another meaning then I stand corrected and I am sure by now he would have stepped in and corrected my understanding.

As to agreeing with everything he says, another laughable statement. However I guess that never happens with you Brexit independently minded types.

"As to agreeing with everything he says, another laughable statement. However I guess that never happens with you Brexit independently minded types"

Labels disable!

[sandyf]

6 hours ago, ilostmypassword said:

Neither post is true. What's happened is a huge rise in inequality. But that's the fault of domestic politics. 

You have gone out of context. The original point referred to the situation prior to going into Europe in 1973, nothing to do with what may have happened in recent times. Just as a reminder, a state of emergency was declared twice in the UK during 1972.

 

Your point is not entirely invalid, in the 60's and 70's there was huge inequality, high wages for those in certain industries and peanuts for everybody else. I still hear to this day the tales from the old Stocksbridge steelworkers how they went on shift at 10 pm and were back in the pub by midnight, getting paid for a whole shift plus overtime. Of course it was Europe that was responsible for the workforce being reduced from over 5000 to a few hundred.

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, vogie said:

Bill you must unblock grouse immediately, his posts are a bit like watching an episode of Jeremy Kyle, we all hate the show but can't resist looking at how the disfunctional the families are.

 

Keeping to topic, the "military types" seem to be the ones in touch with reality on our divorce from brexit, whilst the lefties are only intent on disrailling the whole affair.

Possibly,  but the problem is I'm not a "leftie". Social democrat maybe, liberal maybe, but socialist? No, I don't think so. I can not abide Corbyn or that dreadful women Abbot (Does she have a burka?)

 

Where we seem to have a disconnect is that I am very aware of European and U.K. History. I think one has to really understand the past before deciding upon future direction. 

 

BTW, I am pro Trident, pro BRITISH designed war planes (why F35, why Rivit? Give me Typhoon derivatives and Nimrod) maintaining an adequate blue water navy and NOT dismantling our army and killing off regiments. Leftie? Nah...

Edited May 2, 2017 by Grouse

[sandyf]

3 hours ago, vogie said:

Bill you must unblock grouse immediately, his posts are a bit like watching an episode of Jeremy Kyle, we all hate the show but can't resist looking at how the disfunctional the families are.

 

Keeping to topic, the "military types" seem to be the ones in touch with reality on our divorce from brexit, whilst the lefties are only intent on disrailling the whole affair.

"Keeping to topic, the "military types" seem to be the ones in touch with reality on our divorce from brexit,"

 

Thank you for those few kind words, I for one would certainly like to see a divorce from brexit become reality.

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

I'm hoping that this doesn't fall foul of the mod's warning - but "numpty" is not a witticism - even though that may be your idea of wit .

OK, I shall not use the term again.

 

Here is the definition that matches my intended usage

 

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Numpty

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, pitrevie said:

Why do I need to ask him when I have already explained that my understanding is that he was referred to people who had served in the military.  Nothing about agreeing with him or not. However if he had another meaning then I stand corrected and I am sure by now he would have stepped in and corrected my understanding.

As to agreeing with everything he says, another laughable statement. However I guess that never happens with you Brexit independently minded types.

Yes, people who have served in the military. So not police, postmen or immigration staff. 

 

Again, it was not intended as a derogatory term. What collective noun would you prefer?

 

I am interested in underlying factors, that's all.

[pitrevie]

Just now, Grouse said:

Yes, people who have served in the military. So not police, postmen or immigration staff. 

 

Again, it was not intended as a derogatory term. What collective noun would you prefer?

 

I am interested in underlying factors, that's all.

I thought it was unambiguous. Personally it doesn't bother me I recall my service time with some fondness but I did meet a lot who had nothing good to say about trade unions.

[sandyf]

13 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Possibly,  but the problem is I'm not a "leftie". Social democrat maybe, liberal maybe, but socialist? No, I don't think so. I can not abide Corbyn or that dreadful women Abbot (Does she have a burka?)

 

Where we seem to have a disconnect is that I am very aware of European and U.K. History. I think one has to really understand the past before deciding upon future direction. 

 

BTW, I am pro Trident, pro BRITISH designed war planes (why F35, why Rivit? Give me Typhoon derivatives and Nimrod) maintaining an adequate blue water navy and NOT dismantling our army and killing off regiments. Leftie? Nah...

Ref your last point, the rot set in under the Labour government of 1965 when they scrapped the TSR-2 and the UK military aviation industry just sunk into oblivion. The designer of the Hawker Hurricane made a very significant quote.

"All modern aircraft have four dimensions: span, length, height and politics. TSR-2 simply got the first three right."

 

If I had anything to do with European aviation projects in the UK, I would be very concerned right now.

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

Disagree with the last paragraph.

 

As long as migrants from poor countries are allowed to work in wealthier EU countries (for the lowest possible salaries) - its going to be a problem, and has nothing do with the English being too lazy to do those jobs as implied by your post.

 

It also has to be mentioned that Brit families are unable to survive (in their country!) on the lowest possible salaries paid by employers - which nowadays require a top-up in benefits from the welfare state.....

 

It's a mixed picture.  My niece and her partner are very well educated and work hard in London.  It's all they can do balance their budget, largely due to high rent and repaying university fees.  What's more I think they are mortgaged to those debts for a decade, possibly two.  And they haven't even started a family yet.

 

We can say though that Polish workers who have a trade can or could come over, sustain themselves, and save quite a bit of money for the folks back home.

 

UK workers seem to be less productive- that can not be contended, although the reasons for this remain elusive.

 

I think that in order to get on most ordinary folk have to make a few very big sacrifices, and work insanely hard for a decade or so.

 

Ok, not lazy, but...

[vogie]

27 minutes ago, sandyf said:

"Keeping to topic, the "military types" seem to be the ones in touch with reality on our divorce from brexit,"

 

Thank you for those few kind words, I for one would certainly like to see a divorce from brexit become reality.

Forgive me for asking, is that so you can have a scexit?

[mommysboy]

12 minutes ago, pitrevie said:

I thought it was unambiguous. Personally it doesn't bother me I recall my service time with some fondness but I did meet a lot who had nothing good to say about trade unions.

ex-forces.

 

[AlexRich]

10 hours ago, pitrevie said:

Next you will be telling me that Johnson is a politician of integrity. He changed his mind on the EU he changed his mind on TTIP and  Johnson got sacked from the Times for fabricating an article. In the campaign he promised the UK would remain part of the single market, now ditched, that the UK would reduce immigrant numbers now ditched and something about 350 million, gone forever.

 

Ah, Johnson! Perhaps the most self-serving and dishonest politician of our times. The referendum for him was merely the opportunity to curry favour with the Conservative Party membership ... who he would need to vote him into leadership when Cameron finally resigned. What a jolly wheeze it would be to be the gallant loser in the referendum campaign, and a year or so later take the leadership? Even better that the so-called right wing Euro hating Tory "bastards" would not be able to blackmail him for a referendum ... as we'd only just had one. So he used his well-crafted "loveable buffoon" image and led the charge ... his face the day after the vote was a sight to behold. If you're going to lie, make it a big one ... something that Trump also understood very well.

[vogie]

35 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Possibly,  but the problem is I'm not a "leftie". Social democrat maybe, liberal maybe, but socialist? No, I don't think so. I can not abide Corbyn or that dreadful women Abbot (Does she have a burka?)

 

Where we seem to have a disconnect is that I am very aware of European and U.K. History. I think one has to really understand the past before deciding upon future direction. 

 

BTW, I am pro Trident, pro BRITISH designed war planes (why F35, why Rivit? Give me Typhoon derivatives and Nimrod) maintaining an adequate blue water navy and NOT dismantling our army and killing off regiments. Leftie? Nah...

I never thought for one minute you were a Leftie, don't be so paranoid, I wasn't refering to you, as much as I try I can't envisage you with green hair and a ring through your nose. I actually like Jeremy Corbyn more than Abbott or McDonald and I hate Corbyn.

Corbyn has stated too that he is pro trident, but he will never give the order for the firing of it, great deterent or what?

[AlexRich]

44 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Possibly,  but the problem is I'm not a "leftie". Social democrat maybe, liberal maybe, but socialist? No, I don't think so. I can not abide Corbyn or that dreadful women Abbot (Does she have a burka?)

 

Where we seem to have a disconnect is that I am very aware of European and U.K. History. I think one has to really understand the past before deciding upon future direction. 

 

BTW, I am pro Trident, pro BRITISH designed war planes (why F35, why Rivit? Give me Typhoon derivatives and Nimrod) maintaining an adequate blue water navy and NOT dismantling our army and killing off regiments. Leftie? Nah...

 

Seems to be a common theme on here ... if you loathe Brexit it's because you are comrade in arms?

 

I'm probably more to the right economically than most who post on this thread, liberal on social issues, and not remotely socialist. I simply see the outcome as a protest vote on immigration with economic consequences for the populace that are unlikely to produce an outcome where we are "better off", and in fact suspect that many will be considerably worse-off ... including many who voted for it. As for immigration, the demographics of this country ... a larger proportion of older people living longer lives ... is likely to increase the need for more productive taxpaying workers, not less. They will come from overseas. 

 

On the whole, the UK did very well within the EU ... something the majority of Tory MP's recognised, and you'd hardly describe them as socialist or leftie.

[SheungWan]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

I never thought for one minute you were a Leftie, don't be so paranoid, I wasn't refering to you, as much as I try I can't envisage you with green hair and a ring through your nose. I actually like Jeremy Corbyn more than Abbott or McDonald and I hate Corbyn.

Corbyn has stated too that he is pro trident, but he will never give the order for the firing of it, great deterent or what?

Typical leftie has green hair and a ring through one's nose. Well I'll be blowed. We surely are very lucky to have someone on this thread who is right on top of things.

[vogie]

3 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Typical leftie has green hair and a ring through one's nose. Well I'll be blowed. We surely are very lucky to have someone on this thread who is right on top of things.

Thanks for the appreciation, anything else I can help you with, like the meaning of sarcasm for example?

[Grouse]

OK, Thatchernomics 101

 

This is not off topic, my contention is that we ALL should be very clear about our history before making decisions about our future. Unintended consequences if you like.

 

Thatcher decimated much heavy industry at great cost and little net benefit just following monetarist dogma.

 

Take coal. Could we get coal cheaper from Brazil? But what about the total cost of the coal, the transportation, the redundancy lump sums, the unemployment benefits, the intangible social costs, the wrecked communities, the generational knock on harm? Yes Scargill was a pain in the arse, but ask yourself this: are German unions stronger?

 

What about ship building? Why is ship building profitable in Germany and Japan and Korea? Are they cheaper? Problem was, we built each ship as a bespoke Rolls Royce! Were Upper Clyde, Tyneside and Teesside workers over paid? I don't think so

 

What about Steel? Is that not a strategic industry? What about Manganese steels for tanks? Do you think we can still build a super gun? Can we build B2 vessels for chemical engineering? Sure, you can get cheaper steel from China but is that wise?

 

No, Thatcher squandered our oil bonanza on dole payments. Industries should have been reduced over 10 or 15 years and the oil money used for a sovereign fund and support for new industries. On Thatcher's watch, industry fell from 27% of GDP to about 9% today.

 

Also, she enabled unfettered growth of the city by Big Bang. No bad thing in someways but it was the precursor of the 2008 crash and vast costs to the country

 

No, Thatcher is no hero of mine.