May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[Orac]

UK citizens residing in EU countries were always going to suffer if the UK voted for brexit.

Trying to blame EU leaders for decisions taken in the UK is ridiculous. Time for some people to man up and take responsibility for their choices.

[Grouse]

18 minutes ago, Flustered said:

So at last you have admitted/accepted that you would sacrifice the 1.2 million UK nationals in the EU just to make yourself feel big hearted.

 

There does not have to be any form of migration. Theresa May has stated on record that she wants to give the EU nationals in the UK security. What part of that do you not understand?

 

The EU refuse point blank to discuss the UK nationals security. What part of that do you not understand?

 

It is your heroine Frau Merkle who has put the boot in and refused to even discuss the matter until article 50 is triggered. What part of that do you not understand.

 

I guess at the end of the day you just do not care about UK nationals and are happy to see them evicted from their homes in the EU. What an upstanding, moral person you are.

You obviously don't understand irony

 

I was making mirth of your asinine assumptions

 

As I say, let's agree to differ

 

We shall see how things work out with your hardball, don't trust anyone (particularly the Germans), approach

 

BTW, if I was an EU professional working in the UK, I would F*** off immediately.....

 

 

[sandyf]

On 3/2/2017 at 3:29 PM, Khun Han said:

 

Didn't Malta state that they wouldn't protect the rights of British expats?

Ireland,Malta and Cyprus shouldn't be allowed any active participation in the brexit negotiations. Their citizens in the UK, estimated at one million, had the right to vote in the EU referendum so the UK government will be effectively negotiating on behalf of those citizens. It could be construed as a conflict of interests if the national governments were to be involved.

[Orac]

Ireland,Malta and Cyprus shouldn't be allowed any active participation in the brexit negotiations. Their citizens in the UK, estimated at one million, had the right to vote in the EU referendum so the UK government will be effectively negotiating on behalf of those citizens. It could be construed as a conflict of interests if the national governments were to be involved.

We are leaving. We cannot dictate to the EU who they include/exclude from negotiating process apart from refusing to take part in any discussions and just walking away.

[sandyf]

30 minutes ago, Flustered said:

So at last you have admitted/accepted that you would sacrifice the 1.2 million UK nationals in the EU just to make yourself feel big hearted.

 

I is a sad day when human beings and words like sacrifice appear in the same sentence.

 

I have just finished watching the latest version of Roots, quite thought provoking.

[sandyf]

6 minutes ago, Orac said:

 

We are leaving. We cannot dictate to the EU who they include/exclude from negotiating process apart from refusing to take part in any discussions and just walking away.

 

Obviously you are right in what you say, I don't think they should have been allowed to vote in the first place. However they did vote and it must raise a question mark with them effectively on both sides of the table.

[Khun Han]

1 hour ago, Orac said:

UK citizens residing in EU countries were always going to suffer if the UK voted for brexit.

Trying to blame EU leaders for decisions taken in the UK is ridiculous. Time for some people to man up and take responsibility for their choices.

 

Decisions on UK nationals living in the EU post-brexit will be made by the EU and their member countries. Stop trying to pass the buck.

[Orac]

 
Decisions on UK nationals living in the EU post-brexit will be made by the EU and their member countries. Stop trying to pass the buck.

Indeed they will when we finally get round to officially notifying them of our exit.

Since the triggering of Art 50 can also include reference to our future dealings with the EU I trust TM will include a 'red line' that any future deal reached will have to safeguard rights of UK citizens resident in EU states prior to our exit.

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

I is a sad day when human beings and words like sacrifice appear in the same sentence.

 

I have just finished watching the latest version of Roots, quite thought provoking.

And I am on episode 13 of 27 of The World at War. Should be compulsory part of everyone's education. A few on here would certainly benefit from knowing the truth about why and how we are where we are.....

[Grouse]

52 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

Decisions on UK nationals living in the EU post-brexit will be made by the EU and their member countries. Stop trying to pass the buck.

Need not be like that

 

But people like you always know best....

 

Who's idea was it to upset the apple cart? The EU I assume.

 

I suspect you're not going to like the end result of all this. And then you will all deny that you were in anyway responsible for the dystopian apocalypse you end up with.

 

Well done! 

[Flustered]

17 minutes ago, Grouse said:

And I am on episode 13 of 27 of The World at War. Should be compulsory part of everyone's education. A few on here would certainly benefit from knowing the truth about why and how we are where we are.....

For once I agree 100% with you. Everyone should study history and watch series like these.

 

The UK has saved Europe from becoming a centralised dictatorship 3 times in the last 200 years or so.

 

The Napoleonic Wars, WW1 and WW2.

 

As military means of control are abhorrent, Germany and it's puppets in Brussels (who are thrown a few crumbs) want to create a European Republic with themselves at the centre.

 

Yet again it is left to the UK to save Europe from this dictatorship. And if anyone thinks it is not a dictatorship, how do they account for laws being passed by unelected bureaucrats and the blessing of Frau Merkle against the wishes of the voting public?

 

(Now sits back and waits for the usual pro federal Europe response and rants)

 

 

[Grouse]

49 minutes ago, Flustered said:

For once I agree 100% with you. Everyone should study history and watch series like these.

 

 

The UK has saved Europe from becoming a centralised dictatorship 3 times in the last 200 years or so.

 

 

The Napoleonic Wars, WW1 and WW2.

 

 

As military means of control are abhorrent, Germany and it's puppets in Brussels (who are thrown a few crumbs) want to create a European Republic with themselves at the centre.

 

 

Yet again it is left to the UK to save Europe from this dictatorship. And if anyone thinks it is not a dictatorship, how do they account for laws being passed by unelected bureaucrats and the blessing of Frau Merkle against the wishes of the voting public?

 

 

(Now sits back and waits for the usual pro federal Europe response and rants)

 

 

Yes, you will obviously understand Putin's position! Naturally they want a buffer zone with their history!

 

Who drove Napoleon back in 1812 and Hitler back in 1942? The British? Just check that .....

 

You are entirely, vastly, amazingly wrong about Germany though. They have no desire for military or economic hegemony. Sure they want to be successful but these days they are the most unwarlike people.  Do you know Germany at all?

 

As far as the EU is concerned, there are pros and cons and I don't intend to revisit these right now.

 

Just been talking to a Dutch guy and his UK wife from Wokingham. Anti Brexit of course and very well informed. They don't know anyone who voted Brexit ( or who would admit it). We did liberate The Netherlands though!

Edited March 3, 2017 by Grouse

[citybiker]

UK citizens residing in EU countries were always going to suffer if the UK voted for brexit.

Trying to blame EU leaders for decisions taken in the UK is ridiculous. Time for some people to man up and take responsibility for their choices.

Suffer since Brexit?

Any evidence to support that considering Brexit hasn't started ?

The U.K. 'DID' take responsibility for its actions on the June 23rd 2016, the UK Government is now preparing to implement the electorates decision.

The ridiculous issue is the consistent remain supporters blame game and no tangible evidence to back up their arguement.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Orac]

Suffer since Brexit?

Any evidence to support that considering Brexit hasn't started ?

The U.K. 'DID' take responsibility for its actions on the June 23rd 2016, the UK Government is now preparing to implement the electorates decision.

The ridiculous issue is the consistent remain supporters blame game and no tangible evidence to back up their arguement.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I assume this is directed against the poster who said that UK citizens living in the EU were being sacrificed which is what i was responding to. Obviously there is no suffering yet since we are still in the EU and, several months after voting to leave, have not even formally notified our partners there yet.

[Grouse]

27 minutes ago, citybiker said:

 

Suffer since Brexit?

Any evidence to support that considering Brexit hasn't started ?

The U.K. 'DID' take responsibility for its actions on the June 23rd 2016, the UK Government is now preparing to implement the electorates decision.

The ridiculous issue is the consistent remain supporters blame game and no tangible evidence to back up their arguement.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

You refer to the blame game? Has there been any gain?

 

The UK is terribly damaged financially, reputationally, and socially and we have not even issued the notice to quit.

 

Frankly ALL sensible people know this is a catastrophic decision

 

We'll do our best

 

( stop tittering at the back, boy)!

[Flustered]

30 minutes ago, Grouse said:

.

You are entirely, vastly, amazingly wrong about Germany though. They have no desire for military or economic hegemony. Sure they want to be successful but these days they are the most unwarlike people.  Do you know Germany at all?

 

No, I know nothing about Germany, I only lived there for 7 years, (Scheun), my daughter was born there and I am fluent in German (my second language) also I was posted there in the 70s in the army so no, I am not qualified to speak on the matter.

 

You will never see sense with regards to the dangers in Europe so the discussion is pointless.

 

Brexit is the greatest thing that has happened to Europe since the Berlin wall came down. A common market is the ideal that Europe should have pursued and what we signed up to in the 70s. We never signed up to a Federal Europe with political integration.

 

As I said, you will never agree as you are one of those Bremoaners who would rather see the UK suffer and it's nationals in the EU thrown out just so you can say "told you so".so no point discussing it with you.

[7by7]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

And I am on episode 13 of 27 of The World at War. Should be compulsory part of everyone's education. A few on here would certainly benefit from knowing the truth about why and how we are where we are.....

Remember watching it the first time round in the early 1970s; excellent programme.

 

One of the stated aims of what is now the EU is, and was from the very beginning, to prevent such wholesale carnage ever happening again in Europe. Something at least one British statesman agreed with.

 

From Winston Churchill speaking in Zurich I9th September 1946.

Quote

If Europe were once united in the sharing of its common inheritance, there would be no limit to the happiness, to the prosperity and glory which its three or four hundred million people would enjoy...........

 

Indeed, but for the fact that the great Republic across the Atlantic Ocean has at length realised that the ruin or enslavement of Europe would involve their own fate as well, and has stretched out hands of succour and guidance, the Dark Ages would have returned in all their cruelty and squalor.

They may still return.

Yet all the while there is a remedy which, if it were generally and spontaneously adopted, would as if by a miracle transform the whole scene, and would in a few years make all Europe, or the greater part of it, as free and as happy as Switzerland is today.

What is this sovereign remedy?

It is to re-create the European Family, or as much of it as we can, and provide it with a structure under which it can dwell in peace, in safety and in freedom.

We must build a kind of United States of Europe.

In this way only will hundreds of millions of toilers be able to regain the simple joys and hopes which make life worth living.

 

 

[Grouse]

14 minutes ago, Flustered said:

No, I know nothing about Germany, I only lived there for 7 years, (Scheun), my daughter was born there and I am fluent in German (my second language) also I was posted there in the 70s in the army so no, I am not qualified to speak on the matter.

 

You will never see sense with regards to the dangers in Europe so the discussion is pointless.

 

Brexit is the greatest thing that has happened to Europe since the Berlin wall came down. A common market is the ideal that Europe should have pursued and what we signed up to in the 70s. We never signed up to a Federal Europe with political integration.

 

As I said, you will never agree as you are one of those Bremoaners who would rather see the UK suffer and it's nationals in the EU thrown out just so you can say "told you so".so no point discussing it with you.

OK, I stand corrected.

 

You obviously must know German culture

 

So I'm puzzled that you have the idea that Germany wants hegemony!

 

I lived in Weinheim near Heidelberg. I don't know Scheun; I'll look it up.

 

I got a suspension for quoting JFKs famous speech and "amusing" comments so excuse me if I don't give you any German quotes!

 

I FULLY understand the dangers in Europe. That's partly why I hold the views I do.

 

I do not wish anyone harm. I guess we disagree on the best way to achieve that.

 

Finally, I have a daughter born in Denmark. My new granddaughter is called Freya! ( but, heh, it's Friday!)

[citybiker]

I assume this is directed against the poster who said that UK citizens living in the EU were being sacrificed which is what i was responding to. Obviously there is no suffering yet since we are still in the EU and, several months after voting to leave, have not even formally notified our partners there yet.

Actually no, I'm highlighting the part which states people overseas are going to suffer, yet no evidence to support this viewpoint.

As to Brexit being catastrophic....Really?

(No cliff edge, no WW3, no mass hysteria, markets rebalanced and stabilised, etc etc)

That kind of statement is what cost David Cameron his job, the old guard of Cameron & Osbourne learnt a hard harsh lesson of scaremongering and viewing and under estimating the electorate.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Grouse]

4 minutes ago, Grouse said:

OK, I stand corrected.

 

You obviously must know German culture

 

So I'm puzzled that you have the idea that Germany wants hegemony!

 

I lived in Weinheim near Heidelberg. I don't know Scheun; I'll look it up.

 

I got a suspension for quoting JFKs famous speech and "amusing" comments so excuse me if I don't give you any German quotes!

 

I FULLY understand the dangers in Europe. That's partly why I hold the views I do.

 

I do not wish anyone harm. I guess we disagree on the best way to achieve that.

 

Finally, I have a daughter born in Denmark. My new granddaughter is called Freya! ( but, heh, it's Friday!)

Is Scheun near Celle? Or is it an obtuse reference to the German word for shun? You could be outflanking me here!

[7by7]

10 minutes ago, citybiker said:

Actually no, I'm highlighting the part which states people overseas are going to suffer, yet no evidence to support this viewpoint.

No hard evidence: yet.

 

Except that so far neither side has said that those EEA nationals already living in the UK and Brits already living in other EEA sates will definitely have the right to remain after Brexit.

 

Assuring EU citizens of right to stay 'would lose UK negotiating capital'

Quote

In a letter to a group of EU citizens from the office of the home secretary, Amber Rudd, the government said it “recognises that EU nationals make an invaluable contribution to our economy and society”.

However, in an apparent hardening of the official position, the letter warned that the government cannot do anything to address their position after Brexit until it has assurances that British citizens in Europe will receive reciprocal protection in the country where they have settled.

 

16 minutes ago, citybiker said:

As to Brexit being catastrophic....Really?

(No cliff edge, no WW3, no mass hysteria, markets rebalanced and stabilised, etc etc)

Again; yet.

 

OK, I doubt that Brexit will lead to WW3; but the full effects on the UK economy, good or bad, of Brexit will not be known for at least another decade.

[nontabury]

38 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

Remember watching it the first time round in the early 1970s; excellent programme.

 

One of the stated aims of what is now the EU is, and was from the very beginning, to prevent such wholesale carnage ever happening again in Europe. Something at least one British statesman agreed with.

 

From Winston Churchill speaking in Zurich I9th September 1946.

 

 

  And 8yrs later he gave us an up-date.

  Personally I would have been quite content to remain in the EEC. And what it stood for, during the vote in the early 70's. Unfortunately our masters decided to push us into the EU. And this is what lead the British people  to demand a referendum. 

Such a pity that the House of Lords din't stick up for the British people when Masstricht and Lisdon were imposed on us, probably thought we were insignificant. 

Edited March 3, 2017 by nontabury

[Flustered]

11 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Is Scheun near Celle? Or is it an obtuse reference to the German word for shun? You could be outflanking me here!

Yes, Celle. Stationed there and lived there after the Army days.

 

Fantastic place with great scenery.

 

These are the reasons I want a common market and not a Federal Europe. Germany should be German, Apfeltorte from the corner shop, ordering meat by the pfund and not the kilo. France should be France, baguettes and  tarte aux fraises and the list goes on.

 

Not this one size fits all Brussels (Germany) dictated Europe. Even Junkers has admitted he may have gone too far with his vision of Europe.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/01/revealed-jean-claude-junckers-five-scenarios-future-europe/

 

[Grouse]

20 minutes ago, Flustered said:

Yes, Celle. Stationed there and lived there after the Army days.

 

Fantastic place with great scenery.

 

These are the reasons I want a common market and not a Federal Europe. Germany should be German, Apfeltorte from the corner shop, ordering meat by the pfund and not the kilo. France should be France, baguettes and  tarte aux fraises and the list goes on.

 

Not this one size fits all Brussels (Germany) dictated Europe. Even Junkers has admitted he may have gone too far with his vision of Europe.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/01/revealed-jean-claude-junckers-five-scenarios-future-europe/

 

OK, fair enough 

 

not so so far from Bergen Belsen ?

 

You obviously know the history!

 

I assume you measure your car power in PS ( Pferde Sterke) ??

Edited March 3, 2017 by Grouse

[7by7]

1 minute ago, nontabury said:

  And 8yrs later he gave us an up-date.

  Personally I would have been quite content to remain in the EEC. And what it stood,for during the vote in the early 70's. Unfortunately our masters decided to push us into the EU. And this is what lead the British people  to demand a referendum.

 

Except if you check Hansard you will see that he never said that in the Commons on that, or any other, day!

 

How a Churchill quote was “stitched up” to support Brexit

Quote

The problem with this quote is that it’s a deception. Brexit supporters have fabricated it by ‘stitching’ together two different quotes by Churchill, said by him at different times and in different contexts..........

 

The first four sentences of the ‘quote’ were not said by Churchill in Parliament in 1953, but written by him 23 years earlier, in February 1930, for America’s Saturday Evening Post.........

Churchill concluded that (article with), “the concept of a United States of Europe is right.” His article imagined a Europe without internal barriers or tariffs, or passports, or multiple currencies, which would enable the “free interchange of goods and services” and the free travel of people across the continent........

 

The last sentence was said to DeGaulle during a blazing row in 1944 prior to D Day

Quote

Churchill’s temper with de Gaulle flared up and he demanded to know how the British could act separately from the United States. During the raging row, Churchill bellowed to de Gaulle:

“We are going to liberate Europe, but it is because the Americans are with us. So get this quite clear. Every time we have to decide between Europe and the open sea, it is always the open sea we shall choose. Every time I have to choose between you and Roosevelt, I will always choose Roosevelt.”

 

Although at first Churchill was of the opinion that, due to the British Empire, the UK had no need to join what was to become the EU, he did not dismiss the idea entirely. Indeed, over time, as the Empire dwindled, he came to support the UK becoming a member.

Quote

In March 1957 the six nations of France, Italy, West Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands and Luxembourg founded the European Economic Community (later to be renamed the European Union).

Four months later Churchill gave his last speech on Europe at Central Hall, Westminster. He welcomed the formation of a ‘common market’ by the six, provided that, “the whole of free Europe will have access.” He added, “we genuinely wish to join.”
(Source: Winston S. Churchill: His Complete Speeches Vol. 8 page 8681)

In August 1961, Churchill wrote:

“I think that the Government are right to apply to join the European Economic Community…” 

 

[Grouse]

8 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

Except if you check Hansard you will see that he never said that in the Commons on that, or any other, day!

 

How a Churchill quote was “stitched up” to support Brexit

 

The last sentence was said to DeGaulle during a blazing row in 1944 prior to D Day

 

Although at first Churchill was of the opinion that, due to the British Empire, the UK had no need to join what was to become the EU, he did not dismiss the idea entirely. Indeed, over time, as the Empire dwindled, he came to support the UK becoming a member.

 

Splendid! I take my hat off to your erudition! 

[nontabury]

25 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

Except if you check Hansard you will see that he never said that in the Commons on that, or any other, day!

 

How a Churchill quote was “stitched up” to support Brexit

 

The last sentence was said to DeGaulle during a blazing row in 1944 prior to D Day

 

Although at first Churchill was of the opinion that, due to the British Empire, the UK had no need to join what was to become the EU, he did not dismiss the idea entirely. Indeed, over time, as the Empire dwindled, he came to support the UK becoming a member.

 

 Thank you for that.7by7. So he was in agreement to join the EEC, as were the majority of the British electorate in 1973, myself included,as previously stated. 

We never agreed to become part of the EU. And we can only guess what would have been W.C opinion of this so called Union.as when he died in January 1964, the EU as we have it now, had not been envisaged. So I fail to see how" he came to support the UK becoming a member."

 The EEC yes, the EU no.

 

Edited March 3, 2017 by nontabury

[citybiker]

Again; yet.
 
OK, I doubt that Brexit will lead to WW3; but the full effects on the UK economy, good or bad, of Brexit will not be known for at least another decade.

Completely agree, once the EU apron ties are cut then our own Government will be totally accountable, no excuses.

The UK is more than capable of succeeding post Brexit, less doom and gloom negativity and more progressive level head mindset thinking.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Grouse]

4 minutes ago, nontabury said:

 Thank you for that.7by7. So he was in agreement to join the EEC, as were the majority of the British electorate in 1973, myself included,as previously stated. 

We never agreed to become part of the EU. And we can only guess what would have been W.C opinion of this so called Union.

 

Deary me! 

 

Such an erudite contribution and we we still have to have nipping at the ankles!

 

7by7's piece stands unadulterated 

[Grouse]

4 minutes ago, citybiker said:

 

Completely agree, once the EU apron ties are cut then our own Government will be totally accountable, no excuses.

The UK is more than capable of succeeding post Brexit, less doom and gloom negativity and more progressive level head mindset thinking.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Of course! Let's live in hope!

 

Nurse! Nurse!