May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[Flustered]

Anyone watching Question Time last night will have seen Sir Keir Starmer, Nick Clegg and Alex Salmond firmly put in their place and shown to be some of the big movers behind Project Fear.

 

Melanie Phillips destroyed Nick Clegg's stance and made him look like a member of the European negotiating committee instead of being a British citizen. He admits to being a European first. One reason why the Lib Dems are a party in decline. The UK wants a government that puts the UK first.

 

None of the three could or would say why they were not looking out for the UK citizens living in the EU but only that it would be a good act of faith to guarantee the EU citizens in the UK full rights. In other words...Screw the Brits.

 

The only bit of light hearted entertainment apart from these three was the statement by the BBC that the audience represented 55% exit supporters and 45% remain supporters. The audience was almost totally remain supporters going by the noise they made or is it that exit supporters are more cultured and do not scream and shout so much?

[Khun Han]

4 minutes ago, Flustered said:

The audience was almost totally remain supporters going by the noise they made or is it that exit supporters are more cultured and do not scream and shout so much?

 

Probably. Some of the remain posters on here are quite 'shouty' and aggressive.

[Flustered]

5 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

When that tactic fails they just insult people. These by they way are the reputedly more intelligent (their own words) than ANYONE who voted for Brexit.

 

 

The bit about the Guardian goes without saying so I have left it out.

 

I had a look back at this thread from the beginning as many posts get lost in the back wash.

 

You are 100% right. The majority of the remain FMs do nothing more than personally attack the Exit supporters. They do not attack the stance and offer alternate views, they simply make snide comments about the FM's comments and offer no meaningful debate.

 

This does not apply to all. For example, our dear Grouse is very much a remainer who carries out research on why we should have stayed in but he is one of only a few. The vast majority simply make personal attacks.

[Khun Han]

EU now trying to tell the UK how to conduct it's negotiations:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-uk-leaves-the-eu-39413961

[pitrevie]

52 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Which brings us back nicely to the debating trick of insisting that those who voted brexit were voting against "little brown people'/Osborne was only forecasting (with his promised punishment budget) the result of a brexit win, rather than ratcheting up "Project Fear"/those who voted brexit were "numpties".

 

I can't be the only one who is sick and tired of these "debating tricks"!

Talking of debating tricks why have you conflated you reply to me with a statement I have never made. Try and find the word numties in any of my previous posts. Nor did I combine voting against with "little brown people". I was referring to the disgraceful poster that Farage had issued.

[Flustered]

4 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

EU now trying to tell the UK how to conduct it's negotiations:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-uk-leaves-the-eu-39413961

I love the way the "No deal" sound bite was miss represented.

 

It was in response to the EU threats to punish the UK in the negotiations, a stance that has mellowed considerably once the EU realised that we cannot be bullied.

 

Why should the UK be punished for carrying out a democratic decision simply so that other countries will kowtow to the Brussels Mandarins.

Edited March 28, 2017 by Flustered

[AlexRich]

7 minutes ago, Flustered said:

The bit about the Guardian goes without saying so I have left it out.

 

I had a look back at this thread from the beginning as many posts get lost in the back wash.

 

You are 100% right. The majority of the remain FMs do nothing more than personally attack the Exit supporters. They do not attack the stance and offer alternate views, they simply make snide comments about the FM's comments and offer no meaningful debate.

 

This does not apply to all. For example, our dear Grouse is very much a remainer who carries out research on why we should have stayed in but he is one of only a few. The vast majority simply make personal attacks.

 

It's all about personal attacks and no research contributions?

 

 ... if posters are highlighting articles from the Guardian (and others) ... on points like Davis, Fox and Johnson not wanting a hard line on immigration as they do not want to harm the economy ... that does not represent a 'contribution' to the debate? 

 

And when you refer to people who would prefer to remain as 'losers' are you not also guilty of 'personal attacks'?

 

... back to your fictional moral high ground!

 

 

 

[Flustered]

4 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

And when you refer to people who would prefer to remain as 'losers' are you not also guilty of 'personal attacks'?

 

Go on, I'll bite.

 

Which FM did I accuse of being a looser?

[Grouse]

What did the EU ever do for us?

 

Here's 42 points to start with

 

These are other peoples ideas that I happen to agree with

 

Regret can not use colour; you'll just have to muddle through....(Those crayons were expensive too - made in Germany!)

 

Freedom to live, work, retire anywhere in Europe

 

1.4 million British people live abroad in the EU.

 

More than 14,500 UK students took part in the European Union’s Erasmus student exchange scheme in 2012-13

 

3M British jobs linked to exports to EU

 

Stability for 476,000 British farmers and farm employees

 

Equal pay for men and women is enshrined in EU law, as are bans on discrimination by age, race or sexual orientation. This benefits Britain and British people who live in other EU countries.

 

Workers' protection greatly enhanced in terms of safety, security, working hours, breaks, leave etc.

 

Ease of vacations 31M visits to EU countries in 2014

 

Protection against black listed airlines

 

When visiting EU countries, UK citizens have the right to emergency health care

 

Consular protection in the absence of a UK Embassy

 

Consumer protection – quality and safety of products bought anywhere in EU

 

2-year protection by guarantee against faulty goods

 

Roaming rates rip offs stopped

 

Lower credit card fees,

 

Cheaper flights

 

Proper compensation when flights are delayed or cancelled

 

Enhanced protection from terrorism, trafficking, paedophiles, cyber crime

 

The European Arrest Warrant replaced long extradition procedures and enables the UK to extradite criminals wanted in other EU countries, and brings to justice criminals wanted in the UK who are hiding in other EU countries.

 

Eurojust helps UK authorities work with other EU countries’ to tackle international organised crime such as drug smuggling and money laundering.

 

Cross country coordination and crime fighting

 

The EU has helped secure peace among previously warring western European nations over the last 70 years

 

It helped to consolidate democracy in Spain, Portugal, Greece and former Soviet bloc countries

 

EU has helped preserve peace in the Balkans since the end of the Balkans War.

 

With the UN it now plays a leading role in conflict prevention, peacekeeping and democracy building.

 

71% of CBI members say EU has overall positive impact on their businesses

 

67% of SMEs say EU has overall positive impact on their businesses

 

CBI estimates NET annual benefit of 62B to 78B GBP per annum due to EU membership (4% - 5% of GDP)

 

44.6 of exports and 53.2% of imports are EU

 

EU exports estimated by CEBR to contribute 187B to UK economy rising to 277B by 2030

 

CEBR claims access to European energy, transport and digital service markets, combined with new global trade deals, could add £58 billion to the UK economy every year by 2030

 

FDI. American and Asian firms build factories in Britain because it is in the single market.

 

The EU has taken on multinational giants like Microsoft, Samsung and Toshiba for unfair competition. The UK would not be able to do this alone.

 

Common rules for the common market make it unnecessary to have 28 sets of national regulations. CE and IEC have proved much more beneficial that the old kite mark.

 

Robin Niblett, Director of think-tank Chatham House, stated in a report published last year: “For a mid-sized country like the UK, which will never again be economically dominant either globally or regionally, and whose diplomatic and military resources are declining in relative terms, being a major player in a strong regional institution can offer a critical lever for international influence.

 

As 28 democracies, and as the world’s biggest market, we are strong when we work together. Britain is represented in many international organisations in joint EU delegations – giving Britain more influence than it would have alone. The EU has played a major role in climate, world trade and development.

 

Barack Obama briefly alluded to the importance of the UK’s role in Europe in an interview with the BBC last year, in which he stated: “[Having the UK in the European Union] gives us much greater confidence about the strength of the transatlantic union and is part of the cornerstone of institutions built after [the] second world war that has made the world safer and more prosperous.”

 

European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso argued in 2014: “The largest, proudest European nation cannot hope to shape globalisation – or even retain marginal relevance - by itself. It is only together that we have the weight to influence the big picture.”

 

Through commonly agreed EU standards, national Governments have achieved improvements to the quality of air, rivers and beaches. Good for Britain and good for Britons holidaying or living abroad!

 

The CAP (Common Agricultural Policy) in recent years has concentrated more on the environment and protection of wildlife and habitat. This is doing much to protect and recover the British landscape. Whereas historically, hedgerows were pulled up to create prairie like fields, this has now been reversed to the betterment of all. This is not possible without EU grant to farmers

 

The UK is the second largest beneficiary of EU research funds, and the British Government expected future EU research funding to constitute a vital source of income for our world-leading universities and companies.

 

EU regional development funding has been a major boon for UK regions such as Cornwall, Wales and the NE

 

Now some will disagree with many of these points!

 

I doubt you will disagree with all of them though!

 

If so, more information here.....

 

http://johnmccormick.eu/benefits-of-the-european-union/

Edited March 28, 2017 by Grouse

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

 

So far, Osborne (and the ministers) promise of a punishment budget has been proven to be a lie.

 

No idea (roll eyes) why you are trying to compare an outright lie to Michael Fish's incorrect forecast.  There's a HUGE difference between predicting the weather and telling the voters that the 'wrong' vote would result in a punishment budget!  Which of course, was subsequently proven to be a lie edit - and just part of "Project Fear".

Its really great the way you guys keep licing each other! Mmmm!

 

Osbourne forecast what would happen immediately following leaving the EU. His forecast was PROBABLY overly negative although we don't know yet. Two important things happened. Firstly, Brexit has not been triggered yet, secondly Carney took preventive action. So far, the impact has not required the type of budget expected (though the recent one shows how the Con Party want to load everything on to the shoulders of the less well off). The pound has crashed (the recent up tick is more to do with USD). So where was the lie?

 

In comparison, I can give a list of ACTUAL LIES from the Brexit side!

 

I quite like Osborne; it will be fun to see hime eviscerate May with the Evening Post!

Edited March 28, 2017 by Grouse

[shanesox]

Sorry, why are they undemocratic?
 
Care to explain?

Really? They don't accept the result! Calling for 2nd ref ,In fact they typify the EU in all its Undemocratic forms and it's history! When you don't accept the result of any referendum keep having more, by changing the words, until you get the result you want!


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[rockingrobin]

36 minutes ago, shanesox said:

Really? They don't accept the result! Calling for 2nd ref ,In fact they typify the EU in all its Undemocratic forms and it's history! When you don't accept the result of any referendum keep having more, by changing the words, until you get the result you want!


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

the surest guarantee of the health of a democracy is opposition.

There is merit in opposition for its own sake. No case is so virtuous it cannot benefit from testing. There is nothing wrong, and much to be said, for issuing a simple warning against a clearly disastrous course. On one level it is enough simply to counsel against a clearly disastrous course. The best alternative to joining the Gadarene swine is simply to say no. But there is also an obligation on those providing that opposition to offer a positive alternative.

 

Statement by M.Gove in 2000

[shanesox]

There we have it. Quoting Mr Gove referring the the general issue of opposition . The people I refer to are those who have a history of being in love with the EU project whatever any verdict from the electorate maybe, From Heseltine and Clarke to the Irrelevant Liberals. They can stay on their own "Disastrous Course".  Wednesday March 29th. just one day away

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, shanesox said:

Really? They don't accept the result! Calling for 2nd ref ,In fact they typify the EU in all its Undemocratic forms and it's history! When you don't accept the result of any referendum keep having more, by changing the words, until you get the result you want!


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

No, totally incorrect

 

They, like I, accept the result

 

You think we are going to change our opinions? Of course not!

 

Just because you are the majority does not mean you are correct

 

Further, I don't think their actually IS a majority in favor of a hard Brexit

 

Why not ask the people? Unless you don't believe in democracy of course!

 

What are you all so frightened for?

[shanesox]

No, totally incorrect
 
They, like I, accept the result
 
You think we are going to change our opinions? Of course not!
 
Just because you are the majority does not mean you are correct
 
Further, I don't think their actually IS a majority in favor of a hard Brexit
 
Why not ask the people? Unless you don't believe in democracy of course!
 
What are you all so frightened for?

Nonsense! They along with one Tory the Jocknats and Blairite Labour MPs voted against enacted article 50 before any so called "hard or Soft Brexit" Europhile to their core , blue and stars running through their veins !


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[Grouse]

8 minutes ago, shanesox said:

Nonsense! They along with one Tory the Jocknats and Blairite Labour MPs voted against enacted article 50 before any so called "hard or Soft Brexit" Europhile to their core , blue and stars running through their veins !


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

Because they wanted certain amendments to the cynical little white paper. I don't think you really understand what the Con Party, unfettered are going to do to the numpties. It won't be pleasant; it will hurt! Nurse, the screens please! ?

 

BTW, I'm a Europhile. What's wrong with that?

Edited March 28, 2017 by Grouse

[evadgib]

27 minutes ago, Grouse said:

No, totally incorrect

 

They, like I, accept the result

 

You think we are going to change our opinions? Of course not!

 

Just because you are the majority does not mean you are correct

 

Further, I don't think their actually IS a majority in favor of a hard Brexit

 

Why not ask the people? Unless you don't believe in democracy of course!

 

What are you all so frightened for?

Would you want this if the vote had gone your way last June?

 

There may be some merit in Ozzie style mandatory voting in the future and seats based on no of votes ( UKIP 1 to SNP 56?) but the Jock and EU decisions stand and cannot be retrospectively tampered with.

 

Roll on Wednesday 

[Grouse]

10 minutes ago, evadgib said:

Would you want this if the vote had gone your way last June?

 

There may be some merit in Ozzie style mandatory voting in the future and seats based on no of votes ( UKIP 1 to SNP 56?) but the Jock and EU decisions stand and cannot be retrospectively tampered with.

 

Roll on Wednesday 

Good you're thinking about this!

 

I do favour PR and have no problem with coalition governments

 

I do favour compulsory voting but I'm not clear to whom the vote should be given. Clearly responsibility goes with the vote and therefore some assumptions concerning sanity, knowledge and rational thought are required. I don't think just relying upon age is enough.

 

Finally referendums should only be used for constitutional issues, should be clearly worded and should require more than just a simple majority. Even with compulsory voting 60:40 should be required to overturn the status quo ante.

 

What happens on Wednesday? Nothing important. Are you retiring?

Edited March 28, 2017 by Grouse

[evadgib]

26 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Good you're thinking about this!

 

I do favour PR and have no problem with coalition governments

 

I do favour compulsory voting but I'm not clear to whom the vote should be given. Clearly responsibility goes with the vote and therefore some assumptions concerning sanity, knowledge and rational thought are required. I don't think just relying upon age is enough.

 

Finally referendums should only be used for constitutional issues, should be clearly worded and should require more than just a simple majority. Even with compulsory voting 60:40 should be required to overturn the status quo ante.

 

What happens on Wednesday? Nothing important. Are you retiring?

I agree. Cameron fudged the wording of the referendum which lead to probs he hadn't considered because no one seriously expected to lose. I hope future govts learn from this and think very carefully before doing anything like it again.

 

May and Davis have been thrown in at the deep end and I wish them well.

 

Edited March 28, 2017 by evadgib

[Grouse]

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-39415709

 

This must surely point the way forward!

[Flustered]

21 minutes ago, Grouse said:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-39415709

 

This must surely point the way forward!

Or this

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/03/ireland-should-not-rule-out-leaving-eu-says-ex-diplomat-ray-bassett

 

I know it's a few months old and it's the Guardian and if you can stomach the Guardian pleading for financial assistance at the bottom of the page, it's worth reading.

 

Don't forget that Ireland has had 2 referendums foisted on them when the vote went against the EU and with the UK leaving, Ireland is set to pay far more in just to allow the Brussels club to spend more.

 

Having just returned from a quick holiday in the Republic, I was amazed at how anti EU the general public were.  UK/Ireland exit would be really attractive seeing how closely our finances and economics are meshed.

[Grouse]

8 minutes ago, Flustered said:

Or this

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/03/ireland-should-not-rule-out-leaving-eu-says-ex-diplomat-ray-bassett

 

I know it's a few months old and it's the Guardian and if you can stomach the Guardian pleading for financial assistance at the bottom of the page, it's worth reading.

 

Don't forget that Ireland has had 2 referendums foisted on them when the vote went against the EU and with the UK leaving, Ireland is set to pay far more in just to allow the Brussels club to spend more.

 

Having just returned from a quick holiday in the Republic, I was amazed at how anti EU the general public were.  UK/Ireland exit would be really attractive seeing how closely our finances and economics are meshed.

Eire has done well out of the EU

 

No satisfying some folk!

 

I could see a United Ireland though ?

[Flustered]

And to show that I read other papers besides the Guardian.

 

Here, a Dublin based think tank states that Eire have been shafted by the EU.

 

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/783657/ireland-eu-exit-irexit-eirexit-banking-crisis-hibernia-forum-keith-redmond

 

 

And

 

https://rwer.wordpress.com/2016/09/02/will-ireland-go-bankrupt/

 

Part of it states

 

"Ireland (the government plus the private sector) has by far the largest net international debt of all EU countries (measured as a % of GDP). To an extent this is caused because the Irish state was pressured, by its EU friends, to borrow money from other countries to bail out (the creditors of) Irish banks.

Edited March 28, 2017 by Flustered

[SheungWan]

5 minutes ago, Flustered said:

And to show that I read other papers besides the Guardian.

 

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/783657/ireland-eu-exit-irexit-eirexit-banking-crisis-hibernia-forum-keith-redmond

 

 

 

Here, a Dublin based think tank states that Eire have been shafted by the EU.

 

https://rwer.wordpress.com/2016/09/02/will-ireland-go-bankrupt/

 

Part of it states

 

"Ireland (the government plus the private sector) has by far the largest net international debt of all EU countries (measured as a % of GDP). To an extent this is caused because the Irish state was pressured, by its EU friends, to borrow money from other countries to bail out (the creditors of) Irish banks.

The Daily Express...yes that's up there as one of the UK's leading intellectual daily newspapers. Owner Richard Desmond prior publisher of Asian Babes magazine.

[Flustered]

Just now, SheungWan said:

The Daily Express...yes that's up there as one of the UK's leading intellectual daily newspapers. Owner Richard Desmond prior publisher of Asian Babes magazine.

Yet another great, informative contribution regarding the thread. 555

[shanesox]

 

BTW, I'm a Europhile. What's wrong with that?

Says it all! All your arguments collapse! A subservient Europhile and most of the 48% aren't that, so well matched with Clegg et al!

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

[Flustered]

I think that everyone has to admit that there were some good parts of the EU and some very bad parts. I don't think that any two people will have the same opinion about how the EU should be run.

 

For me it was always about a common market. I have no problem with living and working in each others countries as long as the benefits issue would be resolved. I believe that if you are looking for work an can support yourself, you should be allowed to travel freely. Same for living. If you can support yourself and not be a burden on the country you choose to live in, then you should be free to live there. I do not agree with the political integration that Frau Merkel and her ilk are after.

 

I object to anyone moving to any country simply because the benefits are better than their own. Once we are out of the EU, the benefit traveller will disappear.

 

Also I think that a case could be made for freedom of movement by simply denying benefits to anyone travelling to the UK to look for work and if found, a long period of continuous employment required before they are eligible. This would cut down the number considerably.

 

No matter what we think, we are coming out and whatever the negotiating committee agrees with the EU will be what happens (unless some brain dead person wants to challenge it in the courts). For good or for bad, this is the situation.

[SheungWan]

9 minutes ago, Flustered said:

I think that everyone has to admit that there were some good parts of the EU and some very bad parts. I don't think that any two people will have the same opinion about how the EU should be run.

 

 

For me it was always about a common market. I have no problem with living and working in each others countries as long as the benefits issue would be resolved. I believe that if you are looking for work an can support yourself, you should be allowed to travel freely. Same for living. If you can support yourself and not be a burden on the country you choose to live in, then you should be free to live there. I do not agree with the political integration that Frau Merkel and her ilk are after.

 

 

I object to anyone moving to any country simply because the benefits are better than their own. Once we are out of the EU, the benefit traveller will disappear.

 

 

Also I think that a case could be made for freedom of movement by simply denying benefits to anyone travelling to the UK to look for work and if found, a long period of continuous employment required before they are eligible. This would cut down the number considerably.

 

 

No matter what we think, we are coming out and whatever the negotiating committee agrees with the EU will be what happens (unless some brain dead person wants to challenge it in the courts). For good or for bad, this is the situation.

Ah yes, the High Court and the Supreme Court, two of the leading Enemies Of The People. Throw up a cordon around them. Nobody should get through.

[Grouse]

42 minutes ago, shanesox said:

Says it all! All your arguments collapse! A subservient Europhile and most of the 48% aren't that, so well matched with Clegg et al!

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

You clearly did not read the question:

 

(B) In 30 words or less, explain why being "A Europhile" is a bad thing?

[Flustered]

18 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Ah yes, the High Court and the Supreme Court, two of the leading Enemies Of The People. Throw up a cordon around them. Nobody should get through.

You excel yourself with your valuable contributions to the thread. Well done.