May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[dick dasterdly]

1 minute ago, rockingrobin said:

Background

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-39206513

Which brings me back to why didn't the Chinese criminal gangs use other (more obviously corrupt) countries as the 'soft target' to bring in  clothes/shoes etc.?

 

Or is the EU just trying to come up with another reason to claim that the UK will have to pay a lot of money to leave the EU?

[rockingrobin]

Just now, dick dasterdly said:

Which brings me back to why didn't the Chinese criminal gangs use other (more obviously corrupt) countries as the 'soft target' to bring in  clothes/shoes etc.?

 

Or is the EU just trying to come up with another reason to claim that the UK will have to pay a lot of money to leave the EU?

' The Brussels-based agency accused Britain of turning a blind eye to Chinese scammers when several other EU member states had taken firm action '

 

http://www.dw.com/en/britain-owes-eu-billions-due-to-customs-fraud/a-37853852

https://www.out-law.com/en/articles/2017/march/uk-threatened-with-eu-bill-over-chinese-customs-fraud/

[pitrevie]

12 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

' The Brussels-based agency accused Britain of turning a blind eye to Chinese scammers when several other EU member states had taken firm action '

 

http://www.dw.com/en/britain-owes-eu-billions-due-to-customs-fraud/a-37853852

https://www.out-law.com/en/articles/2017/march/uk-threatened-with-eu-bill-over-chinese-customs-fraud/

Britain acted as the ringleader in blocking attempts to regulate cheap Chinese steel entering Europe, despite warnings that the continent’s steel industry was in crisis, the European Steel Association (Eurofer) has said.

The Labour MP Stephen Kinnock, whose Aberavon constituency includes the Port Talbot plant, accused the government of being “in hock to China” and said senior figures at the company had expressed frustration at the lack of action from ministers to support the steel industry.

The attempts by the European commission and other member states to crack down on China dumping cheap steel on European markets contradicts the assertion by the Ukip leader, Nigel Farage, and other Brexit campaigners that the EU has been a major factor in the decline of Britain’s steel industry.

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

The UK isn't known as being the 'soft underbelly' of the EU - so is the article saying that UK customs officers are fraudulently (and illegally) allowing in huge quantities of etc. etc.?

 

Possible I suppose, but wouldn't the Chinese be better off using an EU country known to be corrupt?

Apparantly we're insufficiently diligent. When you export stuff, it's not too hard to put an undervalue on the "invoice for customs purposes". If Borders UK is anything to go by, there probably aren't many "white caucasians" doing this sort of work. Seems possible to me

 

You think the UK is not corrupt? Are you being paid?

[sandyf]

3 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

Hasn't this been discussed in another thread (or earlier in this thread)?

 

I can't read the article as its behind a pay-wall, but assume its the same 'story'?

Yes it was, I brought it up on 6th April Post No 4352. They are not saying UK customs are corrupt but negligent.

 

OLAF accuses HMRC of failing to use a risk analysis system used by other European customs departments to detect fraud, despite it having raised the issue at four separate bilateral meetings with senior UK tax officials in recent years.

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-39502316

[sandyf]

4 hours ago, nontabury said:

As quoted by the Mirror.

We all know what Farage was trying to say but when all else fails, shoot the messenger.

[AlexRich]

7 hours ago, nontabury said:

Farage never said he would not accept the result if they lost. I have already posted a video,showing that he has denied doing so.

 

Macron the so called ex-banker,representing the political establishment,who I agree will more than likely win in two weeks time.

 

Can I suggest that you watch the video again at 6 and a half minutes. As Gina Miller another member of the financial establishment, and prominent Remoaner states very clearly (unusually for her) that the final decision when the negotiations are completed, 

" Should NOT be decided democratically by the electorate"  which I beleive you have been arguing for. Preferring instead for that decision to be taken by the establishment.

 

 

 

4 hours ago, pitrevie said:

Farage warns PM over ‘unfinished business’ if Remain narrowly wins ‘unfair’ EU referendum

May 17th Pro Brexit Daily Express

 

Much the same as he said to the Mirror which he is now claiming didn't mean what it meant.

I watched an interview with Farage on Sky TV just before the referendum result was called, the voting was closed and the counting had begun. He conceded that they had narrowly lost ... this information was coming from various sources including friends in the City. He then went on to say that the fight would continue, as a narrow victory of say 52-48 is not a sufficient mandate to close the question. He actually said that! 

 

Of course his tune changed as soon as the result was known. So please, no one on here should engaged in revisionist history and try to suggest that he either did not say this or somehow meant something else. That is just plain lies.

[ilostmypassword]

11 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Yes it was, I brought it up on 6th April Post No 4352. They are not saying UK customs are corrupt but negligent.

 

OLAF accuses HMRC of failing to use a risk analysis system used by other European customs departments to detect fraud, despite it having raised the issue at four separate bilateral meetings with senior UK tax officials in recent years.

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-39502316

The question is why are they failing to use the system? Maybe because it brings traffic to their ports and fattens their wallets? Failing to enforce laws because of the profit motive sounds like corruption to me.

[Grouse]

2 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

The question is why are they failing to use the system? Maybe because it brings traffic to their ports and fattens their wallets? Failing to enforce laws because of the profit motive sounds like corruption to me.

If you pay people peanuts, this is what happens

 

They should be on some kind of results based bonus scheme

[ilostmypassword]

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

If you pay people peanuts, this is what happens

 

They should be on some kind of results based bonus scheme

This is not down to the fault of the workers. Management, whoever that may be, has failed to implement the risk analysis system. 

[rockingrobin]

10 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

This is not down to the fault of the workers. Management, whoever that may be, has failed to implement the risk analysis system. 

http://www.politico.eu/article/uk-faces-e2-billion-eu-payment-for-china-fraud-trade/

 

 

[sandyf]

19 hours ago, ilostmypassword said:

The question is why are they failing to use the system? Maybe because it brings traffic to their ports and fattens their wallets? Failing to enforce laws because of the profit motive sounds like corruption to me.

Don't you think there was a clue in the article. Like many other services that word "cuts" crops up again.

 

"Richard Murphy, an accountant who has long campaigned against tax evasion, blamed the failures on cuts in HMRC staff following a big departmental merger in 2005.

"We saw a complete change in the mentality of the organisation," says Mr Murphy.

"They aren't even training staff to be fully qualified tax inspectors any more. So the staff they've got are not as well trained and they're being concentrated in fewer and fewer offices - many of which are away from ports."

[sandyf]

19 hours ago, rockingrobin said:

http://www.politico.eu/article/uk-faces-e2-billion-eu-payment-for-china-fraud-trade/

 

 

"All countries, including the U.K., initially complied with the requests, but the British customs introduced the new risk assessment tools for only four weeks, during Snake. As soon as the operation was over, they returned to business as usual, according to officials involved in Snake. Other countries kept the measures in place, pushing the fraudulent traffic to Britain, they added.  "

 

Not going to go down well in this ambitious trade deal that is being pursued. If the other EU countries are about to learn that the UK has deprived them of significant VAT revenue it will be a potential game changer, and not for the better.

[nontabury]

5 hours ago, sandyf said:

Don't you think there was a clue in the article. Like many other services that word "cuts" crops up again.

 

"Richard Murphy, an accountant who has long campaigned against tax evasion, blamed the failures on cuts in HMRC staff following a big departmental merger in 2005.

"We saw a complete change in the mentality of the organisation," says Mr Murphy.

"They aren't even training staff to be fully qualified tax inspectors any more. So the staff they've got are not as well trained and they're being concentrated in fewer and fewer offices - many of which are away from ports."

And which party was in power at the time,and made this decision. The same party that opened the boarders to anybody and everything. The Labour Party

[sandyf]

13 hours ago, nontabury said:

And which party was in power at the time,and made this decision. The same party that opened the boarders to anybody and everything. The Labour Party

That of course makes the issue a lot more acceptable, the fact that EU recommendations were ignored a couple of years ago doesn't come into it.

Who is to blame is hardly likely to influence the EU, their hand just gets stronger as the weeks go by.

[dick dasterdly]

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

That of course makes the issue a lot more acceptable, the fact that EU recommendations were ignored a couple of years ago doesn't come into it.

Who is to blame is hardly likely to influence the EU, their hand just gets stronger as the weeks go by.

That partly depends on whether you think the EU claiming that the UK must pay them 2 bn for fraudulent imports is going to 'cut any ice' in negotiations - bearing in mind the huge amount of money paid out by the EU that has subsequently been shown to be fraudulent, wasteful etc.... (Which is why the EU has had so many problems getting its accounts 'signed off'.)

 

This tactic is along the same lines as the previous tactic that the UK must still pay millions/billions towards EU employees pensions and projects started previously.

 

Its obvious that the EU will throw every possible claim for more money at the UK as a negotiating tactic.  Whether or not it will work, remains to be seen.

[sandyf]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

That partly depends on whether you think the EU claiming that the UK must pay them 2 bn for fraudulent imports is going to 'cut any ice' in negotiations - bearing in mind the huge amount of money paid out by the EU that has subsequently been shown to be fraudulent, wasteful etc.... (Which is why the EU has had so many problems getting its accounts 'signed off'.)

 

This tactic is along the same lines as the previous tactic that the UK must still pay millions/billions towards EU employees pensions and projects started previously.

 

Its obvious that the EU will throw every possible claim for more money at the UK as a negotiating tactic.  Whether or not it will work, remains to be seen.

It's not going to be about the money, its how the other 27 perceive the UK that will have the most influence on the outcome. The amount of money will only be an indicator of how far the UK has dropped in their estimation, which at the moment appears to be rock bottom.

The one thing all 28 countries have in common is human nature.

[dick dasterdly]

18 minutes ago, sandyf said:

It's not going to be about the money, its how the other 27 perceive the UK that will have the most influence on the outcome. The amount of money will only be an indicator of how far the UK has dropped in their estimation, which at the moment appears to be rock bottom.

The one thing all 28 countries have in common is human nature.

"its how the other 27 perceive the UK that will have the most influence on the outcome."

 

I have no doubt that those politicians voting within the EU will have a very good idea as to the facts, but will be happy to present it to their electorates in a way that makes the UK appear as 'the bad guy'....

 

I agree that its not all about the money - its about POWER too, which one way or another results in "the money".

 

On brexit, EU comments seem to centre around "the money".

 

edit - or the UK being 'punished' for leaving the EU.

Edited April 27, 2017 by dick dasterdly

[ilostmypassword]

19 hours ago, nontabury said:

And which party was in power at the time,and made this decision. The same party that opened the boarders to anybody and everything. The Labour Party

And the Tories have been in power since 2010. Or was a change of regime somehow overlooked at the port and it's still being run by Labour?

[sandyf]

They call it tough talking but if TM thinks she can bully the EU leaders in the same way she bullies the tory party she is sadly mistaken. The fact we all lost the referendum is becoming clearer by the day.

 

Strikingly, the Prime Minister toughened her language on the stance of other EU leaders, in response to German Chancellor Angela Merkel’s criticism of UK reluctance to face the reality of Brexit.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-labour-supporters-general-election-lend-me-their-vote-brexit-success-eu-tory-leader-a7706096.html

[mommysboy]

On 27/04/2017 at 1:59 PM, dick dasterdly said:

"its how the other 27 perceive the UK that will have the most influence on the outcome."

 

I have no doubt that those politicians voting within the EU will have a very good idea as to the facts, but will be happy to present it to their electorates in a way that makes the UK appear as 'the bad guy'....

 

I agree that its not all about the money - its about POWER too, which one way or another results in "the money".

 

On brexit, EU comments seem to centre around "the money".

 

edit - or the UK being 'punished' for leaving the EU.

EU will put the underlying principles before money, as it will not be so badly effected financially, whereas anything other than a punitive exit will encourage others to perhaps leave.

 

Support for Brexit seems to be cooling.  It could easily be that by the time there is Brexit, the majority will not want it, especially on the inevitable hard Brexit which is the only real option.

[mommysboy]

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-poll-times-yougov-mistake-theresa-may-labour-corbyn-election-turning-point-a7705301.html

 

Here's the supporting link: just one poll but it would be absurd to continue if this turns in to a trend.

 

As the column states, the 'majority rules' has been used to as a big stick to try to coerce just about anybody that objects to the Brexiteers doing just what they want.  If they no longer have that majority, just about any argument falls apart. 

 

I don't care either way, but it just seems to me that Brexit the way UK wants it is just not on the negotiating table.

[teddog]

44 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

EU will put the underlying principles before money, as it will not be so badly effected financially, whereas anything other than a punitive exit will encourage others to perhaps leave.

 

Support for Brexit seems to be cooling.  It could easily be that by the time there is Brexit, the majority will not want it, especially on the inevitable hard Brexit which is the only real option.

 

Would not say 'cooling'   just fed up with the talk-talk.  Just bring it on as quickly as possible,if the EU was in massive surplus to UK in trade,then a win-win for UK

[mommysboy]

Bring what on? The only thing that can be brought on is to crash out.  It might not be a bad thing long term, but the majority don't want that.

[teddog]

20 hours ago, mommysboy said:

Bring what on? The only thing that can be brought on is to crash out.  It might not be a bad thing long term, but the majority don't want that.

 

So TM might lose the election?, I think not.  see what sort of majority she gets,it will be overwhelming...yes crash out,just walk away,the EU would not like that,but stuff 'em

[dick dasterdly]

21 hours ago, mommysboy said:

EU will put the underlying principles before money, as it will not be so badly effected financially, whereas anything other than a punitive exit will encourage others to perhaps leave.

 

Support for Brexit seems to be cooling.  It could easily be that by the time there is Brexit, the majority will not want it, especially on the inevitable hard Brexit which is the only real option.

"Support for Brexit seems to be cooling.  It could easily be that by the time there is Brexit, the majority will not want it, especially on the inevitable hard Brexit which is the only real option."

 

Possibly, but its also possible that the EU's negotiating stance will annoy many voters - as its basically forcing the UK into a quick, hard brexit solution.  The EU is adopting a bullying attitude, and this may well backfire.

 

Very good article by Reuters in the thread 'EU leaders united - for now'.

[mommysboy]

54 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

"Support for Brexit seems to be cooling.  It could easily be that by the time there is Brexit, the majority will not want it, especially on the inevitable hard Brexit which is the only real option."

 

Possibly, but its also possible that the EU's negotiating stance will annoy many voters - as its basically forcing the UK into a quick, hard brexit solution.  The EU is adopting a bullying attitude, and this may well backfire.

 

Very good article by Reuters in the thread 'EU leaders united - for now'.

 

EU has repeatedly said that what UK wants is not on the table.  This is not a stance as it is stating it the way it is: all but the Brexiteers seem unable to grasp the fundamental principles of club membership.  More importantly, I think the silent majority, irrespective of how they voted, probably understand this too.

 

Another interpretation could be EU does not want UK to leave: it would be very happy for it to stay in actual fact, and wants to prevent a sad state of affairs.  It is ironic that it should have the interests of the UK at heart more than the UK politicians.  Quite simply by not playing ball, it is hoping that the UK government will have to square up to the electorate who are beginning to realize that the Brexit they will be getting is not at all like the one they voted for.

 

If there is a miscalculation: it is the UK's obsession with liberal capitalism, which seems somehow pathetic these days since we are nearing the status of a tier two nation, and EU gives more credence to values.

 

Brits may well fight best when backed in to a corner, but the cause is arguably not noble.

 

 

Edited April 29, 2017 by mommysboy

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, teddog said:

So TM might lose the election?, I think not.  see what sort of majority she gets,it will be overwhelming...yes crash out,just walk away,the EU would not like that,but stuff 'em

 

1 hour ago, teddog said:

So TM might lose the election?, I think not.  see what sort of majority she gets,it will be overwhelming...yes crash out,just walk away,the EU would not like that,but stuff 'em

 

What we all tired of is the disruption, strife, insecurity and uncertainty. People will vote TM because they see her as a person that can provide strength (a mummy), and there isn't an effective opposition either.  They will not really be endorsing Brexit.

 

What many of us care about is money in the pocket.  It isn't there for millions and hasn't been for many years now.  The latest GDP figures seem to confirm a return to the same depressing feature of slow growth, and low or no wage growth.  In addition we are now seeing inflation outstrip real earnings.

 

 

 

 

[dick dasterdly]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

"Support for Brexit seems to be cooling.  It could easily be that by the time there is Brexit, the majority will not want it, especially on the inevitable hard Brexit which is the only real option."

 

Possibly, but its also possible that the EU's negotiating stance will annoy many voters - as its basically forcing the UK into a quick, hard brexit solution.  The EU is adopting a bullying attitude, and this may well backfire.

 

Very good article by Reuters in the thread 'EU leaders united - for now'.

 

26 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

 

EU has repeatedly said that what UK wants is not on the table.  This is not a stance as it is stating it the way it is: all but the Brexiteers seem unable to grasp the fundamental principles of club membership.  More importantly, I think the silent majority, irrespective of how they voted, probably understand this too.

 

Another interpretation could be EU does not want UK to leave: it would be very happy for it to stay in actual fact, and wants to prevent a sad state of affairs.  It is ironic that it should have the interests of the UK at heart more than the UK politicians.  Quite simply by not playing ball, it is hoping that the UK government will have to square up to the electorate who are beginning to realize that the Brexit they will be getting is not at all like the one they voted for.

 

If there is a miscalculation: it is the UK's obsession with liberal capitalism, which seems somehow pathetic these days since we are nearing the status of a tier two nation, and EU gives more credence to values.

 

Brits may well fight best when backed in to a corner, but the cause is arguably not noble.

 

 

We disagree insofar as I think that the aggressive EU negotiating stance may well cause an even worse backlash.

 

i.e. quite a few of those who didn't vote in the referendum/wanted a soft brexit - may be becoming annoyed enough at the EU's bullying attitude to negotiations that they will start to agree that an immediate, hard brexit is the only solution.

 

Edit - e.g. the EU doesn't see that demanding 'divorce fees' before trade talks can be started is only going to cause problems??  Surely the two are inextricably linked?

Edited April 29, 2017 by dick dasterdly

[dick dasterdly]

16 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

 

 

What we all tired of is the disruption, strife, insecurity and uncertainty. People will vote TM because they see her as a person that can provide strength (a mummy), and there isn't an effective opposition either.  They will not really be endorsing Brexit.

 

What many of us care about is money in the pocket.  It isn't there for millions and hasn't been for many years now.  The latest GDP figures seem to confirm a return to the same depressing feature of slow growth, and low or no wage growth.  In addition we are now seeing inflation outstrip real earnings.

 

 

 

 

"People will vote TM because they see her as a person that can provide strength (a mummy), and there isn't an effective opposition either.  They will not really be endorsing Brexit."

 

Disagree entirely.  They will vote according to whether or not they support brexit IMO.

 

But I assume its the start of the 'arguments' as to why so many left Labour and supported the tories - assuming (as looks likely) the tories win an increased majority....