May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[dick dasterdly]

19 hours ago, Grouse said:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/britain-divided-society-social-mobility-commission-alan-milburn-a7811386.html

 

This is way more important that Brexit. Read It and weep.

 

It explains a great deal, including my embarrassment of most things British at the moment

 

Please do read

Not sure what any of this has to do with the topic at hand - other than pointing out that various uk governments have increased the rich/poor divide more than the eu?

 

It doesn't change the fact that the eu needs serious reform from its power hungry/wasteful ways - and is showing zero inclination to do so.

[dick dasterdly]

22 hours ago, nauseus said:

The Greeks did some creative accounting initially but Germany and the EU wanted them in anyway and I would be very surprised if they were not aware of the true state of the Greek economy at that time. The 3% / GDP rule is just one of many that the EU has but ignores when it suits them.

 

The main issue here is that the Euro has completely crippled Greece, which is now being punished by the EU (particularly Germany). The Euro was not conceived and designed with the economic diversity of the later member (southern and eastern) states in mind. This problem has not gone away and the ECB continues pulling 80 billion a month out of the magic top hat, while being petrified to try to normalize interest rates!  

I recall that at least one UK paper pointed out that Greece failed the 'economic test' - so its impossible to believe that the EU didn't realise.....

[nauseus]

19 hours ago, Grouse said:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/britain-divided-society-social-mobility-commission-alan-milburn-a7811386.html

 

This is way more important that Brexit. Read It and weep.

 

It explains a great deal, including my embarrassment of most things British at the moment

 

Please do read

 

No mention there of the pro remain government pamphlet on the referendum, at an additional cost of 9M (to the taxpayer), of course!

 

Astonishing!

[dick dasterdly]

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

Another skirmish in the brexit battle.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/28/paid-leave-vote-funding-brexit-public-inquiry

If I understand correctly the DUP channeled 425,000 into the vote 'leave' campaign?

 

Could be true I suppose - although I'm at a loss to understand why.

 

The Guardian of course is completely impartial and unlikely to twist facts to suit their own cause .

[sandyf]

2 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

If I understand correctly the DUP channeled 425,000 into the vote 'leave' campaign?

 

Could be true I suppose - although I'm at a loss to understand why.

 

The Guardian of course is completely impartial and unlikely to twist facts to suit their own cause .

If the guy has twisted the facts then his petition will not get very far. The topic is not new I think I saw it on Question Time.

The issue is around the fact that in this day and age why are political donations still anonymous in NI when that is not allowed in the rest of the UK.

Don't you think it should be of some concern if in fact the campaign had received the £425,000 from Saudi Arabia.

[dick dasterdly]

Saudi Arabia has been a loved ally of western countries for many years.....

 

It should have been a problem previously, but only becomes a problem when they may have given money to the 'leave' campaign'....

Edited June 29, 2017 by dick dasterdly

[Flustered]

Meanwhile and not covered by that unbiased news machine called the BBC

 

 http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/806288/EU-pay-UK-Brussels-reality-check-ridiculous-Brexit-bill-Swedish-MEP-Peter-Lindgren

"EU should pay UK! Brussels needs REALITY CHECK over ridiculous Brexit bill" - Swedish MEP

The numbers are picked out from the blue, there is no reality check at all.  Peter Lindgren, of the Sweden Democrats

 

 http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/821754/Brexit-latest-news-EU-talks-Switzerland-treaty-trade

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-swiss-eu-idUKKBN19I0PT

Brexit Brits are new heroes of Swiss as they slam brakes on bullying EU trade deal

"We will wait and see how the Brexit negotiations go and then perhaps adopt a position similar to the UK," 

 

 

Edited June 29, 2017 by Flustered

[mommysboy]

5 hours ago, sandyf said:

Last week I watched Question time and there was a consensus from the whole panel, although a bit reluctantly from the conservative, that many issues needed cross part participation.

Yesterday I watched PM's questions and it was fairly obvious the she is just not interested in anything anyone else has to say, its my way or the highway.  It really is time she was put on the highway or there is no chance of bridging that divide.

 

Imo, yes, we need a cross party consensus on Brexit for sure.  And I would suggest it would also be useful for social care.  The problem is that both main parties are fighting shy of implementing difficult but necessary policies.  For instance, the Tory party manifesto proposal on social care costs, the dementia tax, was actually necessary, and came close to being as fair as it can be.  But as we saw the other parties just sought to make political gain.  Contrariwise, the earlier Labour death tax was also derided.  So nothing gets done.

 

If we have to do Brexit, it makes sense to have all the political heavyweights one can muster, some old some new.

 

I think it's dreaming, because of the extreme right wing of the Consevative party, which has a winner takes all- all or nothing mentality that is highly damaging for the nation.

 

 

 

 

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

Not sure what any of this has to do with the topic at hand - other than pointing out that various uk governments have increased the rich/poor divide more than the eu?

 

It doesn't change the fact that the eu needs serious reform from its power hungry/wasteful ways - and is showing zero inclination to do so.

This is the only cogent reason why it is perhaps right to leave the EU, but I would stress the Brexiteers have produced nothing by way of a cogent alternative.

[jpinx]

23 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

This is the only cogent reason why it is perhaps right to leave the EU, but I would stress the Brexiteers have produced nothing by way of a cogent alternative.

There have been many efforts to reform the EU from within and none gain traction with the eurocrats.  In the light of that, Brexit was inevitable.  Agreed that the alternatives are hard to construct, but that's mainly because of what you rightly point out as the destructive "winner takes all" mentality of politicians.

[Flustered]

24 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

This is the only cogent reason why it is perhaps right to leave the EU, but I would stress the Brexiteers have produced nothing by way of a cogent alternative.

In a nutshell I will tell you why I want to leave.

 

I am a BRITISH citizen, not an EU citizen.

 

I want my laws decided by by the people we the British vote into power, not an unelected EU bureaucrat and I want the British court system to be the final arbiter of our laws, not the EU courts.

 

Simple.

[onthesoi]

7 minutes ago, Flustered said:

In a nutshell I will tell you why I want to leave.

 

I am a BRITISH citizen, not an EU citizen.

 

I want my laws decided by by the people we the British vote into power, not an unelected EU bureaucrat and I want the British court system to be the final arbiter of our laws, not the EU courts.

 

Simple.

 

Ah, so you're another Brexiteer who voted to leave because you didn't comprehend how the EU operates and had your opinion fed to you by the Daily Express.

Edited June 29, 2017 by onthesoi

[jpinx]

3 minutes ago, Flustered said:

In a nutshell I will tell you why I want to leave.

 

I am a BRITISH citizen, not an EU citizen.

 

I want my laws decided by by the people we the British vote into power, not an unelected EU bureaucrat and I want the British court system to be the final arbiter of our laws, not the EU courts.

 

Simple.

Noble sentiments, and well-understood, but in terms of international law it risks isolationism from the world's courts who deal with terrorism, trade and other cross-border disputes.  Once again - there is a compromise here -- Flustered can have the UK under UK control and still have an agreement to take part in the international justice system -- but only if sane minds construct a political foundation for UK that will support it.

[Flustered]

55 minutes ago, onthesoi said:

 

Ah, so you're another Brexiteer who voted to leave because you didn't comprehend how the EU operates and had your opinion fed to you by the Daily Express.

The day you understand politics and the EU better than me will be when I am pushing up daisies.

 

You have constantly shown a complete lack of understanding and failed to contribute anything useful to any conversation.

 

Are you related to the Strawman?

[Flustered]

55 minutes ago, jpinx said:

Noble sentiments, and well-understood, but in terms of international law it risks isolationism from the world's courts who deal with terrorism, trade and other cross-border disputes.  Once again - there is a compromise here -- Flustered can have the UK under UK control and still have an agreement to take part in the international justice system -- but only if sane minds construct a political foundation for UK that will support it.

I have no problems with this at all.

 

There are issues in today.s world that require international co-operation and these can be written into British law. TM has already stated that under the Great Repeal Bill,  all EU law will be converted into United Kingdom law. Then we can change the bits that affect the UK only.

 

On this forum, the problem is FMs like ilostmymarbles and soidog who are only here to cause trouble and contribute no useful dialogue to the thread. The rest (even Strawman sometimes) contribute opposing views which are interesting.

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, Flustered said:

In a nutshell I will tell you why I want to leave.

 

I am a BRITISH citizen, not an EU citizen.

 

I want my laws decided by by the people we the British vote into power, not an unelected EU bureaucrat and I want the British court system to be the final arbiter of our laws, not the EU courts.

 

Simple.

Yes, I want that too- if we are to leave.

 

Yet, other than vague promises of trade deals with geographically remote or minor nations, the Brexiteers have not come up with any reasonable alternative.

 

And as for simple, complexity is the only thing guaranteed from Brexit!

Edited June 29, 2017 by mommysboy

[Flustered]

6 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

 

Yet, other than vague promises of trade deals with geographically remote or minor nations, the Brexiteers have not come up with any reasonable alternative.

 

 

Until we leave the EU, we cannot start trade talks with any other country. That's part of the issue. Until we leave , we are still an EU member and bound by their laws which prohibit trade talks on a single nation basis..

 

Almost a Catch 22.

[sandyf]

2 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

Saudi Arabia has been a loved ally of western countries for many years.....

 

It should have been a problem previously, but only becomes a problem when they may have given money to the 'leave' campaign'....

You are drifting away from the point, the government has the ability to make the regulations in NI the same as the rest of the UK but has chosen not to do so. That could be construed as being in their best interests regarding the DUP.

Nobody is saying there is a problem giving money to the leave campaign, just that it should be known where the money came from When this came up earlier in the year the DUP was forced into declaring the source of the funds, a guy with known links to Saudi Arabia and also an Indian gun runner. He has so far refused to name the actual source of the funds. If he came clean, the possibility of a sweetner on an arms deal with Saudi could be ruled out, or do you think that is too far fetched.

Teresa May has opened a can of worms by getting into bed with the DUP.

[jpinx]

22 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Yes, I want that too- if we are to leave.

 

Yet, other than vague promises of trade deals with geographically remote or minor nations, the Brexiteers have not come up with any reasonable alternative.

 

And as for simple, complexity is the only thing guaranteed from Brexit!

As I recall, Australia and India were amongst several large nations who were expressing a desire to quickly set up a new deal with independent UK.

14 minutes ago, Flustered said:

Until we leave the EU, we cannot start trade talks with any other country. That's part of the issue. Until we leave , we are still an EU member and bound by their laws which prohibit trade talks on a single nation basis..

 

Almost a Catch 22.

I never understand this.  How does the EU dictate who UK can talk to?  All the negotiating can be done, the contracts pencilled in and only waiting for Brexit day to come and the appropritate signatures to be added. 

[Flustered]

26 minutes ago, jpinx said:

As I recall, Australia and India were amongst several large nations who were expressing a desire to quickly set up a new deal with independent UK.

I never understand this.  How does the EU dictate who UK can talk to?  All the negotiating can be done, the contracts pencilled in and only waiting for Brexit day to come and the appropritate signatures to be added. 

To quote 

 

"Under current EU treaties, Britain can neither strike nor even begin to negotiate any trade agreement with countries outside of the Union until it has formally terminated its membership, which is expected to occur in March 2019."

 

http://uk.businessinsider.com/eu-warns-theresa-may-about-post-brexit-trade-deal-with-trump-usa-2017-1

[jpinx]

12 minutes ago, Flustered said:

To quote 

 

"Under current EU treaties, Britain can neither strike nor even begin to negotiate any trade agreement with countries outside of the Union until it has formally terminated its membership, which is expected to occur in March 2019."

 

http://uk.businessinsider.com/eu-warns-theresa-may-about-post-brexit-trade-deal-with-trump-usa-2017-1

I understand the language, but under what authority is the EU acting?  UK is leaving and still submits to what is basically a whim of the Eurocrats? 

[Orac]

To quote 
 
"Under current EU treaties, Britain can neither strike nor even begin to negotiate any trade agreement with countries outside of the Union until it has formally terminated its membership, which is expected to occur in March 2019."
 
http://uk.businessinsider.com/eu-warns-theresa-may-about-post-brexit-trade-deal-with-trump-usa-2017-1

Though this is a legal issue the practicalities of having negotiations with other nations outside the EU make things much more difficult.

Unless the decision has been made to walk away totally from the EU, in which case the legal issue is pretty much irrelevant, the difficulties of having separate negotiations ongoing would be huge both in that the UK lacks the negotiators to do it and the best we have would need to be on the EU gig and also we would lack a starting point for negotiations.

There has been an argument made which, though I don't agree with it has some validity, that during the negotiations with the EU the UKs cards should be held close to our chest now, when applied to other countries these cards literally would not exist since they would depend on the outcome of the EU talks.

[rockingrobin]

42 minutes ago, jpinx said:

As I recall, Australia and India were amongst several large nations who were expressing a desire to quickly set up a new deal with independent UK.

I never understand this.  How does the EU dictate who UK can talk to?  All the negotiating can be done, the contracts pencilled in and only waiting for Brexit day to come and the appropritate signatures to be added. 

The issue about not being able to deals whilst still being a member of the EU is a sideshow. The Uk went to India last year in an attempt to gain a favourable start to trade, but the stumbling block was visa's for indian nationals.

The problem for the UK is whilst still being a member of the EU , how deep can the negotations with other countries  go, without knowing what the EU agreement will be .

[jpinx]

7 minutes ago, Orac said:

 

Though this is a legal issue the practicalities of having negotiations with other nations outside the EU make things much more difficult.

Unless the decision has been made to walk away totally from the EU, in which case the legal issue is pretty much irrelevant, the difficulties of having separate negotiations ongoing would be huge both in that the UK lacks the negotiators to do it and the best we have would need to be on the EU gig and also we would lack a starting point for negotiations.

There has been an argument made which, though I don't agree with it has some validity, that during the negotiations with the EU the UKs cards should be held close to our chest now, when applied to other countries these cards literally would not exist since they would depend on the outcome of the EU talks.

Indeed -- but a good poker player can cope with multiple "hands".  It points more to the ineptitude of the politicians in how they might conduct these early negotiations.  I can't believe they are so spineless as to be afraid that the EU would make a new UK-EU trade deal more difficult.  The remaining members need the UK's trade and will not be happy.!  

[Grouse]

5 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

Not sure what any of this has to do with the topic at hand - other than pointing out that various uk governments have increased the rich/poor divide more than the eu?

 

It doesn't change the fact that the eu needs serious reform from its power hungry/wasteful ways - and is showing zero inclination to do so.

It explains why so many Brits are dissatisfied with status quo and want change. Any change. NOW!

 

Your comments on the EU are pure paranoia. I'll not comment further.

[Grouse]

5 hours ago, nauseus said:

 

No mention there of the pro remain government pamphlet on the referendum, at an additional cost of 9M (to the taxpayer), of course!

 

Astonishing!

I don't see the relevance of your post. Please explain.

 

The money spent by both sides was regulated. 9M is money from the back of the sofa. DUP just got 150x that

[onthesoi]

2 hours ago, Flustered said:

Until we leave the EU, we cannot start trade talks with any other country. That's part of the issue. Until we leave , we are still an EU member and bound by their laws which prohibit trade talks on a single nation basis..

 

Almost a Catch 22.

 

Sounds like you're still in full Brexiteer 'blame the EU for everything' mode even though article 50 has already been submitted. 

 

Or, is it more like the overgrown teenager who is refusing to leave home because they are scared to go it alone?

 

What exactly is the EU going to do if the UK strikes a trade deal with a non EU country?

 

My guess is these 'new trade deals with non EU countries' that are supposedly being held back by the EU are in fact entirely fictitious, to hide the fact that Brexit is and will be an economic disaster for the UK!

 

 

[Grouse]

Stormont talks look to have failed due to DUP intransigence. Direct rule coming.

 

This IS a DISASTER.

 

I fear for the Good Friday agreement

[Flustered]

48 minutes ago, onthesoi said:

 

Sounds like you're still in full Brexiteer 'blame the EU for everything' mode even though article 50 has already been submitted. 

 

Or, is it more like the overgrown teenager who is refusing to leave home because they are scared to go it alone?

 

What exactly is the EU going to do if the UK strikes a trade deal with a non EU country?

 

My guess is these 'new trade deals with non EU countries' that are supposedly being held back by the EU are in fact entirely fictitious, to hide the fact that Brexit is and will be an economic disaster for the UK!

 

 

As I said, you have constantly shown a complete lack of understanding and failed to contribute anything useful to any conversation.

 

 

[Kwasaki]

50 minutes ago, Grouse said:

This IS a DISASTER.

Well if was in charge get rid of Nth. Ireland.