May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[Grouse]

23 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

"As I see it , an MPs duties is to do what he thinks is in the best interests of the nation as an whole."

 

And that's where the problems start.

 

Should MPs represent the constituents that voted them into power, or the MP's version of "what he thinks is in the best interests of the nation as a whole"?  (Putting aside the obvious argument that MPs are mainly/only interested in increasing their own power and wealth ). 

Dick, we've had this dozens of times. Please read Burke on representative democracy!

 

http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/v1ch13s7.html

 

Absolute democracy doesn't work unless all have adequate levels of education and are equally informed. Capital Punishment being the usual exemplar!

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08v8ssb

 

Listen to this, " A Tale of Two Cities". Brexiters from Wakefield and Remainers from Oxford. How would qualitatively analyse the two groups?

Edited July 29, 2017 by Grouse

[SheungWan]

21 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

"As I see it , an MPs duties is to do what he thinks is in the best interests of the nation as an whole."

 

And that's where the problems start.

 

Should MPs represent the constituents that voted them into power, or the MP's version of "what he thinks is in the best interests of the nation as a whole"?  (Putting aside the obvious argument that MPs are mainly/only interested in increasing their own power and wealth ). 

The answer, of course, is that one should refrain from endless pontificating blah as to what an MP should or should not do.

[SheungWan]

15 hours ago, elliss said:

   Could  be worse,  Issan has had rain for the last sixty days ,  

    Live  the  dream ,  and get water proofs . 

Bttopic ,    JC  is our  only  hope , the people have spoken , the new old labour .

Somehow I am not dreaming right this moment of swapping London for Nakhon Nowhere. But wait, what is that outside my window? is it pigeon poop? No! Its a ray of sunshine! Must go before it disappears!

[dick dasterdly]

24 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

"As I see it , an MPs duties is to do what he thinks is in the best interests of the nation as an whole."

 

And that's where the problems start.

 

Should MPs represent the constituents that voted them into power, or the MP's version of "what he thinks is in the best interests of the nation as a whole"?  (Putting aside the obvious argument that MPs are mainly/only interested in increasing their own power and wealth ). 

 

6 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Dick, we've had this dozens of times. Please read Burke on representative democracy!

 

http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/v1ch13s7.html

 

Absolute democracy doesn't work unless all have adequate levels of education and are equally informed. Capital Punishment being the usual exemplar!

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08v8ssb

 

Listen to this, " A Tale of Two Cities". Brexiters from Wakefield and Remainers from Oxford. How would qualitatively analyse the two groups?

I agree with you to a certain extent, but the logical conclusion to your argument is that some people (not enough education/low IQ) shouldn't be allowed to vote - even though they can see what is happening in their own lives!

 

I'd add that some of the most intelligent people I've known,  didn't have a clue outside their sphere of intelligence....

[rockingrobin]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

"As I see it , an MPs duties is to do what he thinks is in the best interests of the nation as an whole."

 

And that's where the problems start.

 

Should MPs represent the constituents that voted them into power, or the MP's version of "what he thinks is in the best interests of the nation as a whole"?  (Putting aside the obvious argument that MPs are mainly/only interested in increasing their own power and wealth ). 

Are you saying MPs should only represent the people who voted for them

[jpinx]

46 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

I agree with you to a certain extent, but the logical conclusion to your argument is that some people (not enough education/low IQ) shouldn't be allowed to vote - even though they can see what is happening in their own lives!

 

I'd add that some of the most intelligent people I've known,  didn't have a clue outside their sphere of intelligence....

"........most intelligent....."  ?  measured by what yardstick?  What's that Einstein quote about the intelligence of a fish?     The people who just don't ""get it" are the ones who struggle with anything outside of their specialist fields of knowledge.  Intelligence is, by-and-large, a factor of memory, not reasoning. 

[SheungWan]

1 hour ago, jpinx said:

"........most intelligent....."  ?  measured by what yardstick?  What's that Einstein quote about the intelligence of a fish?     The people who just don't ""get it" are the ones who struggle with anything outside of their specialist fields of knowledge.  Intelligence is, by-and-large, a factor of memory, not reasoning. 

Intelligence is, by-and-large, a factor of memory, not reasoning. Well we definitely have a winner here!

[melvinmelvin]

3 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

I agree with you to a certain extent, but the logical conclusion to your argument is that some people (not enough education/low IQ) shouldn't be allowed to vote - even though they can see what is happening in their own lives!

 

I'd add that some of the most intelligent people I've known,  didn't have a clue outside their sphere of intelligence....

 

re outside their sphere of int.

 

reminds me of a Danish chap, well known, Kumbel,

once he said somethig along the lines of;

 

My intellectual horizon is like a circle with radius 0

This I call my point of view

 

 

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

I agree with you to a certain extent, but the logical conclusion to your argument is that some people (not enough education/low IQ) shouldn't be allowed to vote - even though they can see what is happening in their own lives!

 

I'd add that some of the most intelligent people I've known,  didn't have a clue outside their sphere of intelligence....

Which is why representative democracy is good and referendums are bad! Did you have chance to listen to the Radio 4 piece? Well balanced I thought.

[Grouse]

37 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

re outside their sphere of int.

 

reminds me of a Danish chap, well known, Kumbel,

once he said somethig along the lines of;

 

My intellectual horizon is like a circle with radius 0

This I call my point of view

 

 

Intelogence (six)

 

"A very general mental capability that, among other things, involves the ability to reason, plan, solve problems, think abstractly, comprehend complex ideas, learn quickly and learn from experience. It is not merely book learning, a narrow academic skill, or test-taking smarts. Rather, it reflects a broader and deeper capability for comprehending our surroundings—"catching on," "making sense" of things, or "figuring out" what to do.^[8]"

 

But I said:-

 

"Absolute democracy doesn't work unless all have adequate levels of education and are equally informed. Capital Punishment being the usual exemplar!"

 

Not the same thing!!

 

So, back to the topic, our carefully elected MPs should do what they think best and NOT just mirror the majority of their lumpen constituents.

 

Edited July 29, 2017 by Grouse

[Grouse]

47 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

re outside their sphere of int.

 

reminds me of a Danish chap, well known, Kumbel,

once he said somethig along the lines of;

 

My intellectual horizon is like a circle with radius 0

This I call my point of view

 

 

Thanks for that! I had never heard of him!

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piet_Hein_(scientist)

 

Read the glove bit!

[melvinmelvin]

Yes

And structure cnmplexity into managable parts

And grasping what is important and not or whatt must be addressed and not or simplx being able to discriminte between ordinary <deleted> and deep <deleted>

[Grouse]

5 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

Yes

And structure cnmplexity into managable parts

And grasping what is important and not or whatt must be addressed and not or simplx being able to discriminte between ordinary <deleted> and deep <deleted>

Pity can not like twice! Great response! ?

[melvinmelvin]

2 hours ago, Grouse said:

Thanks for that! I had never heard of him!

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piet_Hein_(scientist)

 

Read the glove bit!

 

 

Piet Hein was a great guy. Produced a lot of "few"-liners hitting nail heads.

 

Here follow pointers to some examples, (not in Danish - but in English);

 

 

 

Piet Hein | Brief Poems

https://briefpoems.wordpress.com/tag/piet-hein/

 

23. feb. 2016 - Piet Hein (1905 – 1996) was a Danish scientist, philosopher, mathematician, inventor, designer, author, and poet, often writing under the Old ...

Grook s by Piet Hein - Archimedes' Lab

www.archimedes-lab.org/grooks.html

 

A collection of small aphoristic verses written by Piet Hein, the inventor of the ... so for him 'being a poet' was only one outlet for his astonishing creativity.

 

Grooks of Piet Hein

www.sophilos.net/GrooksofPietHein.htm

 

Grooks of Piet Hein ..... A poet should be of the old-fahioned meaningless brand: obscure, esoteric, symbolic, -- the critics demand it; so if there's a poem of mine

 

***********'

I'm sure he would have enjoyed making Brexit punch lines.

 

Edited July 29, 2017 by melvinmelvin
cleaning

[jpinx]

10 hours ago, SheungWan said:

Intelligence is, by-and-large, a factor of memory, not reasoning. Well we definitely have a winner here!

Which is the only point some people like to make -- winners over losers.  It's a shame for the genius who is narrow minded......   

[Grouse]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/government-acids-acid-attacks-deregulation-act-conservatives-poisons-board-a7856041.html

 

Do you really trust our executive to do the right thing? Cutting "red tape" saves retailers 20k per annum as they do not have to be licenced to sell concentrated acids! Give me the EU any day!

[melvinmelvin]

54 minutes ago, Grouse said:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/government-acids-acid-attacks-deregulation-act-conservatives-poisons-board-a7856041.html

 

Do you really trust our executive to do the right thing? Cutting "red tape" saves retailers 20k per annum as they do not have to be licenced to sell concentrated acids! Give me the EU any day!

 

anarchists would say; give me acid any time

 

liberal politics may be ok, but letting down any guard mostly in order to appear liberal is maybe somewhat ott

 

[Johnyo]

Even the post patriotic Brits can see sense.

Even flag-waving Falklanders don't want Brexit

http://dailym.ai/2vi2LVo


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

[billd766]

2 hours ago, Johnyo said:

Even the post patriotic Brits can see sense.

Even flag-waving Falklanders don't want Brexit

http://dailym.ai/2vi2LVo


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

 

 

quote  from the link above.

 

" We may well lose the support of the rest of Europe, and may well see Spain and possibly other members of Europe give greater support to Argentina over its mistaken and illegal claim to the Falkland Islands.’ "

 

Or perhaps you may not.

 

As usual a lot of ifs, buts, maybes and don't knows.

 

At this stage of the negotiations only 2 months into it NOBODY knows what will happen.

 

Still predicting doom, gloom and Project Fear though aren't you.

[dick dasterdly]

3 hours ago, Johnyo said:

Even the post patriotic Brits can see sense.

Even flag-waving Falklanders don't want Brexit

http://dailym.ai/2vi2LVo


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

I'm not at all 'patriotic", whilst still caring about the country in which I spent most of my life or - more importantly, the 'ordinary' segment of society.

 

Edit - Which is why I can understand the brexit vote and hope that the negotiations don't result in a more expensive version of 'staying'....

Edited July 30, 2017 by dick dasterdly

[Johnyo]

9 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

 

quote  from the link above.

 

" We may well lose the support of the rest of Europe, and may well see Spain and possibly other members of Europe give greater support to Argentina over its mistaken and illegal claim to the Falkland Islands.’ "

 

Or perhaps you may not.

 

As usual a lot of ifs, buts, maybes and don't knows.

 

At this stage of the negotiations only 2 months into it NOBODY knows what will happen.

 

Still predicting doom, gloom and Project Fear though aren't you.

 

How can anyone possibly know when the cabinet keep contradicting themselves nearly every week. 40 years the Brexiteers have had to decide on a plan and still no clue. 

[nauseus]

18 minutes ago, Johnyo said:

 

How can anyone possibly know when the cabinet keep contradicting themselves nearly every week. 40 years the Brexiteers have had to decide on a plan and still no clue. 

A really strange observation, as very few of the original Brexiteers are still around and of these none are in government! 

[melvinmelvin]

look at the bright side of it,

 

lack of plan ensures uncertainty - suspense - excitement(and the opposite)

 

 

[SheungWan]

7 hours ago, Johnyo said:

 

How can anyone possibly know when the cabinet keep contradicting themselves nearly every week. 40 years the Brexiteers have had to decide on a plan and still no clue. 

 

6 hours ago, nauseus said:

A really strange observation, as very few of the original Brexiteers are still around and of these none are in government! 

Now that the forum Hard Brexiteers are getting a little bit twitchy about the comments coming out from even the staunchest Brexiteers in the Cabinet about there being the possibility of transitional arrangement deals with the EU rather than just walking out the door (which is what the forum guys would prefer), some of the forum hard core are beginning to loosen that support and edging towards the exit of supporting the government. Probably we will hear a lot more blather about all politicians being this or that during the next month or so.

[melvinmelvin]

19 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

I'm not at all 'patriotic", whilst still caring about the country in which I spent most of my life or - more importantly, the 'ordinary' segment of society.

 

Edit - Which is why I can understand the brexit vote and hope that the negotiations don't result in a more expensive version of 'staying'....

 

where I come from the majority (in a referendum) voted no to joining the EEC, early 70s that was (don't really remember much of the debate now, long time ago,  but its fairly safe to say that the debate was pretty much as disorganised and divisive and full of unsubstantiated "truths" as in the UK now) now, re your comment on cost/price:

 

One of the slogans I remember clearly from that time went along the lines of; "Vote no to EEC and austerity!"  so apparently not everybody viewed EEC membership as a path to improved economy (public and private).

 

 

[Grouse]

This new forum format suits my personality perfectly; I don't like anything ?

[vogie]

27 minutes ago, Grouse said:

This new forum format suits my personality perfectly; I don't like anything ?

Like

[Grouse]

 

5 minutes ago, vogie said:

Like

Like

Edited July 31, 2017 by Grouse

[billd766]

13 hours ago, Johnyo said:

 

How can anyone possibly know when the cabinet keep contradicting themselves nearly every week. 40 years the Brexiteers have had to decide on a plan and still no clue. 

 

Really? You are telling me and everybody else that the Brexiteers have had 40 years to decide on a plan.

 

What a crock.

 

Please tell us all when the choice to have a referendum was given. Hint, it wasn't 40 years ago.

 

The Brexiteers won the referendum in 2016, but were not in power at the time, which has left it to the current government to honour their committment to declare for a Brexit, which they did, and the negotiations have been eunning for only a couple of months, NOT 40 years as you falsely claim.

[billd766]

12 hours ago, nauseus said:

A really strange observation, as very few of the original Brexiteers are still around and of these none are in government! 

 

Like.