May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[dick dasterdly]

10 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

My point was that the future of the EU is much more important to the EU politicians than the loss of a few car or prosecco sales to the UK. They will sacrifice economic interests for their own political interests. Why? Because they do not want other countries to leave the EU. The economic impact of that scenario would be far greater and more damaging.

 

On the other thread, many Brexit supporters seemed to believe that economic interests would force the EU to compromise ... if you like ... the "they need us more than we need them". That argument looks to have fallen flat on its face.

 

 

 

Time will tell.

 

At the moment those at the top in the EU have to worry about upcoming elections in other EU countries as well as the financial problems caused by brexit (if it happens) and struggling EU countries.

 

If the upcoming elections result in EU supportive parties staying in power - then they will hold a stronger negotiating hand.

[AlexRich]

5 minutes ago, SgtRock said:

 

Your point is missing the whole point of the article.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/19/europes-leaders-force-uk-hard-brexit-farage-le-pen

 

If those EUrocrats do not extract their craniums from their posteriors there is not going to be an EU for them to worry about their own political interests. The economic impact will be the least of their worries.

 

If you cannot, or are unwilling to see that. Good luck to you.

 

My point was that the EU forcing a hard brexit was something that pro-Brexit supporters (on a previous thread) argued would never happen. 

 

The collapse of the EU is your 'baby', not mine. I think they will have to make changes to survive but I would not underestimate them. I foresee inevitable change (the Euro for example) but not collapse ... I fear that you'll be disappointed. 

 

[sandyf]

20 hours ago, SheungWan said:

 

The hard Brexit position is primarily one of expectation not wishful thinking. Wishful thinking is, well, wishful thinking, but expectation is a political and economic perspective which requires addressing. If one does then the Brexiteer expectation of imminent EU collapse dictates to Theresa May that there is no need to cut any (soft brexit) deals with the EU but rather merely sign Article 50 asap and run for the hills. Apocalyptic? Sure. But that is the argument to have with them, not mislabeling their position as one of 'wishing'.

 

 

I didn't imply that 'hard brexit' and the collapse of the EU went hand in hand, just that a certain faction seem to think that chaos and conflict would be an an acceptable scenario for the future, and I will repeat what I said previously, they should think carefully about what they wish for.

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, AlexRich said:

 

My point was that the EU forcing a hard brexit was something that pro-Brexit supporters (on a previous thread) argued would never happen. 

 

The collapse of the EU is your 'baby', not mine. I think they will have to make changes to survive but I would not underestimate them. I foresee inevitable change (the Euro for example) but not collapse ... I fear that you'll be disappointed. 

 

Which is precisely why we're all waiting to see what happens in the upcoming EU countries general elections and how the EU will deal with those countries that are struggling.

 

I gather that a 'hard' brexit is being sought by some UK politicians - and some EU politicians are now saying the same thing.

 

Understandable from both sides as UK politicians need to do their best to gain the voters they lost in the referendum, and EU politicians need to send a 'hard line' (for the time being) to those voters in other EU countries that may be thinking about voting for their own exit from the EU.

[SgtRock]

8 minutes ago, sandyf said:

I didn't imply that 'hard brexit' and the collapse of the EU went hand in hand, just that a certain faction seem to think that chaos and conflict would be an an acceptable scenario for the future, and I will repeat what I said previously, they should think carefully about what they wish for.

 

No faction, especially here on TV is saying that chaos and conflict is an acceptable scenario.

 

What they are saying is that will be the outcome if the EUrocrats do not extract their craniums from their posteriors, identify, admit and then rectify what is happening in front of their eyes.

 

Is the far right, as they are labelled an illusion ? A made up boogeyman ? To try and scare the sheeples into being good little sheep ?

 

It is happening for a reason, and that reason stems from the EU, that is the institutions not EU Countries, although some of those politicians are also in denial and are not helping.

[SgtRock]

20 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

My point was that the EU forcing a hard brexit was something that pro-Brexit supporters (on a previous thread) argued would never happen. 

 

The collapse of the EU is your 'baby', not mine. I think they will have to make changes to survive but I would not underestimate them. I foresee inevitable change (the Euro for example) but not collapse ... I fear that you'll be disappointed. 

 

 

I am not really interested in what was said on another thread.

 

I have never bought into this '' Hard '' or '' Soft '' Brexit.

 

No disappointment on my part regardless of what happens.

 

I call a spade a spade, I have never bought into this EU Utopia, that is not working.

 

It does not need change to survive, it needs RADICAL change to survive. A word that scares the living sh!t out of politicians.

 

Therefore I do not see much chance of it surviving.

 

Date for your diary.

 

04 Dec. Renzi for the boot in Italy and Hofer to win in Austria.

 

You might want to check out the rantings emanating from the EU should this happen. I posted the links yesterday.

 

Quote

Italy and Austria elections keep Europe on edge

 

https://www.ft.com/content/653bf54c-ac1f-11e6-ba7d-76378e4fef24

[sandyf]

Sixty Tory MPs have urged Theresa May to commit Britain to a hard Brexit – pulling out of the single market and customs union.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/sixty-tory-mps-demand-theresa-may-commits-britain-to-a-hard-brexit-a7426811.html

[AlexRich]

1 minute ago, SgtRock said:

 

I am not really interested in what was said on another thread.

 

I have never bought into this '' Hard '' or '' Soft '' Brexit.

 

No disappointment on my part regardless of what happens.

 

I call a spade a spade, I have never bought into this EU Utopia, that is not working.

 

It does not need change to survive, it needs RADICAL change to survive. A word that scares the living sh!t out of politicians.

 

Therefore I do not see much chance of it surviving.

 

Date for your diary.

 

04 Dec. Renzi for the boot in Italy and Hofer to win in Austria.

 

You might want to check out the rantings emanating from the EU should this happen. I posted the links yesterday.

 

 

https://www.ft.com/content/653bf54c-ac1f-11e6-ba7d-76378e4fef24

 

For personal reasons, I'm looking forward to the Italian referendum and French elections ... but I wouldn't put any money on an EU collapse ... bad for everybody, including the UK.

 

 

[Grouse]

6 hours ago, nontabury said:

 

  Correct. It just shows those who have never been in business. 

 

You could not be more wrong.

[SgtRock]

2 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

For personal reasons, I'm looking forward to the Italian referendum and French elections ... but I wouldn't put any money on an EU collapse ... bad for everybody, including the UK.

 

 

 

That would be your decision.

 

I would put money on the EU collapsing if the EUrocrats continue to bury their collective heads in the sand.

 

Brexit was bad for everybody.

 

Trump was bad for everybody.

 

Still going ahead.

 

See the pattern ?

[sandyf]

Brexit means brexit - whatever the cost.

 

EU students are failing to turn up for their studies this term as a result of Brexit, UK business schools have warned.

One in six UK business schools has reported an increase in the number of “no show” undergraduate students for the 2016–17 academic year, with some institutions reporting a rise as high as 20 per cent.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/brexit-blamed-rise-foreign-student-no-shows-top-business-schools-universities-a7418501.html

[Grouse]

19 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Sixty Tory MPs have urged Theresa May to commit Britain to a hard Brexit – pulling out of the single market and customs union.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/sixty-tory-mps-demand-theresa-may-commits-britain-to-a-hard-brexit-a7426811.html

 

Pathetic

 

Typical extreme Con party self interest.

[sandyf]

4 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

Pathetic

 

Typical extreme Con party self interest.

You have to remember the UK will get the best deal possible, it is who for that is being kept quiet and touted as negotiating strategy.

I wouldn't be surprised if Nissan is on the phone tomorrow morning.

[SgtRock]

13 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Brexit means brexit - whatever the cost.

 

EU students are failing to turn up for their studies this term as a result of Brexit, UK business schools have warned.

One in six UK business schools has reported an increase in the number of “no show” undergraduate students for the 2016–17 academic year, with some institutions reporting a rise as high as 20 per cent.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/brexit-blamed-rise-foreign-student-no-shows-top-business-schools-universities-a7418501.html

 

So 5 in 6 reported no difference in the number of no shows.

 

14 minutes ago, sandyf said:

EU students are failing to turn up for their studies this term as a result of Brexit, UK business schools have warned.

 

Of course, its all down to Brexit. Nothing whatsoever to do with:

 

Quote

On top of increased tuition fees and the rising cost of living for students, 

 

Quote

 European schools outside the UK have become a much more attractive option to EU and many UK students, with institutions in cities such as Copenhagen and Amsterdam offering courses at a fraction of the price of British universities. 

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/brexit-blamed-rise-foreign-student-no-shows-top-business-schools-universities-a7418501.html

 

Not sure how much the cost of living has risen since June, but I guess it will not have been that much.

 

How much has tuition fees risen since June ?

 

Courses offered at a fraction of the UK price is sod all to with Brexit, other than the exchange rate.

[dick dasterdly]

35 minutes ago, SgtRock said:

 

I am not really interested in what was said on another thread.

 

I have never bought into this '' Hard '' or '' Soft '' Brexit.

 

No disappointment on my part regardless of what happens.

 

I call a spade a spade, I have never bought into this EU Utopia, that is not working.

 

It does not need change to survive, it needs RADICAL change to survive. A word that scares the living sh!t out of politicians.

 

Therefore I do not see much chance of it surviving.

 

Date for your diary.

 

04 Dec. Renzi for the boot in Italy and Hofer to win in Austria.

 

You might want to check out the rantings emanating from the EU should this happen. I posted the links yesterday.

 

 

https://www.ft.com/content/653bf54c-ac1f-11e6-ba7d-76378e4fef24

Agree entirely that radical EU change is necessary.

 

Will it happen?  Unlikely as those at the top do their best to do the minimum necessary to keep their own power and wealth.

 

Does anyone think that the EU elite are not doing their best to come up with policies to assuage the concerns of voters in all - particularly those with elections coming up?

 

And this plays into May's 'hand' - unless the elections in other countries result in pro EU governments and the EU manages to somehow control the problem in those countries suffering serious financial problems.

 

As I keep saying - time will tell.

 

 

[dick dasterdly]

28 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Brexit means brexit - whatever the cost.

 

EU students are failing to turn up for their studies this term as a result of Brexit, UK business schools have warned.

One in six UK business schools has reported an increase in the number of “no show” undergraduate students for the 2016–17 academic year, with some institutions reporting a rise as high as 20 per cent.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/brexit-blamed-rise-foreign-student-no-shows-top-business-schools-universities-a7418501.html

Thank god for that!

 

I've only yet met one graduate in business studies that had any intelligence at all!

 

Edit - as proven by EU (business) students failing to turn up for their studies as a result of brexit.  Really ??!!  How stupid are they??

Edited November 20, 2016 by dick dasterdly

[SgtRock]

How utterly bizarre. Yet another article that 6 months ago would never have been printed in the Pro-EU Guardian.

 

Quote

 It is taken for granted that Le Pen, 48, will reach the second round. But for the first time, the idea she could then beat Juppé, or any other centre-right candidate, and win outright is taken seriously. Manuel Valls, France’s prime minister, admitted last week it was entirely possible. It is a dreadful prospect.

 

Quote

If polls are correct, parliamentary elections in the Netherlands in March could see the triumph of Geert Wilders, an anti-Islam extremist who advocates a Dutch exit (Nexit) from the EU. Wilders predicts he will win partly because of Merkel’s “stupidity” in opening Europe’s doors to Syrian refugees. In Italy, the centre-left prime minister, Matteo Renzi, looks set to lose a controversial referendum on constitutional reform, and his job, next month. Pollsters say the “no” campaign, led by the anti-establishment Five Star movement (M5S), is benefiting from a “Trump effect”.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/19/liberal-democracy-trump-angela-merkel-france-netherlands-democratic

 

How can this be ?

 

Are those that have been in denial for so long, now opening their eyes to reality ?

[Khun Han]

43 minutes ago, SgtRock said:

How utterly bizarre. Yet another article that 6 months ago would never have been printed in the Pro-EU Guardian.

 

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/19/liberal-democracy-trump-angela-merkel-france-netherlands-democratic

 

How can this be ?

 

Are those that have been in denial for so long, now opening their eyes to reality ?

 

I was arguing this very point the other day with another poster (who appears to be pro-brexit, by the way), and they were basically saying that it's all just a flash-in-the-pan protest vote! Voting anti-establishment politicians into power is rather a lot more than a flash-in-the-pan, and I predict it to happen in the UK if brexit isn't delivered.

[Khun Han]

2 hours ago, sandyf said:

I didn't imply that 'hard brexit' and the collapse of the EU went hand in hand, just that a certain faction seem to think that chaos and conflict would be an an acceptable scenario for the future, and I will repeat what I said previously, they should think carefully about what they wish for.

 

The EU is in big trouble because it deserves to be. It still has time to put it's house in order, but is showing no interest in doing so. Instead, it's trying to bully it's way out of it's problems. If it does implode (and it will, if it doesn't set a radical change of course soon), it will be bad enough for us being out or on the way out. But it would be exponentially worse for us if we stayed in. All imo, of course.

Edited November 20, 2016 by Khun Han

[7by7]

17 hours ago, AlexRich said:

 

The 'content' of the Deloitte memo ... no Brexit plan and a government more concerned about it's own political future than the future of the country ... is in no way discredited. You are merely using a 'smoke and mirrors' argument, namely that it was not a Cabinet memo, as originally stated, to distract attention away from the point made by Deloitte's. Deloitte's are one of the biggest audit and consultancy practices in the world, with direct access to Government and big business, so they are certainly a 'credible' outfit ... and if that is their thoughts on where we are with Brexit we should sit up and take notice of it.

 

The fact that it was not a 'Cabinet memo' is a 'red herring' and completely irrelevant ... when a firm of their standing make those sort of comments, whether for internal or external consumption, those comments have credibility. You can't simply dismiss them because The Times got their story wrong on the original source of the document. 

 

 

 

Have you actually bothered to read the comments on this memo from Deloitte's themselves? It would appear not.

 

They have admitted that it was not, as originally stated, prepared for the Cabinet Office.

 

They have admitted that it was prepared with zero input from Number 10, the Cabinet Office or any other government source.

 

They have admitted that it represents just one view of the task facing Whitehall. One view among many.

 

You also seem completely unaware that memos of this type expounding widely differing views and opinions on the same subject are prepared by the thousands in government; both by outside consultants and government departments. Most of them end up in the circular file.

 

Even policy documents submitted to Cabinet are just suggestions for discussion and most of them never become actual government policy.

 

You can continue trying to convince people that this memo contains the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth if you wish; but as it's now a dead issue I'm done with it.

 

 

[MoonUnit]

Count down to EU and EUR implosion.  Won't be long now and I really can't wait. 

 

The government needs to get on board sharpish or the Tories will be voted out at the next election.  Fair play to Theresa May as she absolutely knows this.

[7by7]

5 hours ago, sandyf said:

On ‎19‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 10:24 AM, 7by7 said:

 

On ‎19‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 2:43 AM, sandyf said:

Quite. There is a huge difference between.

Leave the EU, and remain with the single market/customs union.  and

Leave the EU, and also separate from the single market/customs union.

 

A percentage of the people voted to leave and trusted the government to arrange the 'best' outcome. Obviously that trust was misplaced as the government has now damaged the UK beyond repair.

It is really now a question of damage limitation.

 

 

The government are, I believe, trying to arrange the best outcome for the UK. Why do you believe otherwise?

 

Don't say it's because May wont state her negotiating position; as stated earlier, only a fool would do that in advance of the actual negotiations.

 

Many of those who voted to leave believed that we could retain all the advantages of membership and merely ditch the disadvantages; they were fools. There is no way that the other 27 would ever agree to that; as evidenced by the terms of the deals with the other EEA states and Switzerland.

Your maths are obviously weak, you only seem to understand tangents.

I made no comment on what the government are trying to arrange or what I believe in that respect.

Do not make things up in order to push your own theories.

 

I have not made anything up

 

But I did ask you a question based upon your previous remark that the trust people had in the government to arrange the best possible outcome was misplaced.

 

If you do not wish to answer that question, up to you. But perhaps you should not make such statements if you are not prepared to defend them.

[AlexRich]

2 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 

Have you actually bothered to read the comments on this memo from Deloitte's themselves? It would appear not.

 

They have admitted that it was not, as originally stated, prepared for the Cabinet Office.

 

They have admitted that it was prepared with zero input from Number 10, the Cabinet Office or any other government source.

 

They have admitted that it represents just one view of the task facing Whitehall. One view among many.

 

You also seem completely unaware that memos of this type expounding widely differing views and opinions on the same subject are prepared by the thousands in government; both by outside consultants and government departments. Most of them end up in the circular file.

 

Even policy documents submitted to Cabinet are just suggestions for discussion and most of them never become actual government policy.

 

You can continue trying to convince people that this memo contains the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth if you wish; but as it's now a dead issue I'm done with it.

 

 

 

That it was not a Cabinet memo has been well established. So what? Deloitte's are a credible organisation with major government and private sector contracts ... that in itself carries weight. Something you seem incapable of acknowledging. 

 

[Grouse]

9 hours ago, SgtRock said:

 

That would be your decision.

 

I would put money on the EU collapsing if the EUrocrats continue to bury their collective heads in the sand.

 

Brexit was bad for everybody.

 

Trump was bad for everybody.

 

Still going ahead.

 

See the pattern ?

 

Once again you seem to show glee  at the prospect of damage to the EU

 

Most thinking people hope for the best

 

Why do you consistently think that way? What exactly do you want? A caliphate maybe?

[Grouse]

9 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

Agree entirely that radical EU change is necessary.

 

Will it happen?  Unlikely as those at the top do their best to do the minimum necessary to keep their own power and wealth.

 

Does anyone think that the EU elite are not doing their best to come up with policies to assuage the concerns of voters in all - particularly those with elections coming up?

 

And this plays into May's 'hand' - unless the elections in other countries result in pro EU governments and the EU manages to somehow control the problem in those countries suffering serious financial problems.

 

As I keep saying - time will tell.

 

 

 

Why?

 

We voted out. Why are you interested in the EU?

 

Why is radical change necessary?

 

I think you may be surprised....

[Grouse]

4 hours ago, MoonUnit said:

Count down to EU and EUR implosion.  Won't be long now and I really can't wait. 

 

The government needs to get on board sharpish or the Tories will be voted out at the next election.  Fair play to Theresa May as she absolutely knows this.

 

Why? Are you insane? Please enlighten us....

[3NUMBAS]

The Italian referendum on December 4 is likely to bring down the EU so may has no problems dealing with an EU that no longer exists by march

[Grouse]

5 minutes ago, 3NUMBAS said:

The Italian referendum on December 4 is likely to bring down the EU so may has no problems dealing with an EU that no longer exists by march

 

Do you welcome that?

 

Or have just not thought it through ?

[sandyf]

7 hours ago, Grouse said:

 

Why? Are you insane? Please enlighten us....

Looks like the troops are breaking ranks.

 

" No faction, especially here on TV is saying that chaos and conflict is an acceptable scenario. "

 

Of course the collapse of the EU could come peacefully and well organised completely free of chaos and conflict.

The pigs have been refuelled and ready for take-off.

[sandyf]

A touch of reality, Phillip Hammond acknowledges that the UK could be hung out to dry.

 

Philip Hammond urged EU countries to “think very carefully about what they want” before hanging Britain out to dry in any post-Brexit settlement.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-negotiations-philip-hammond-does-not-make-sense-splits-tory-a7428046.html