May ready for tough talks over Brexit

SgtRock · November 22, 2016

10 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

'Canada quashes hopes of quick UK trade deal after Brexit' (FT)......Commonwealth to the rescue, not.

SheungWan.

IMO at this moment in time, the UK does not need to be worrying about external trade deals.

It should be focusing on the UK, and only the UK. Putting in place now the infrastructure to start producing for the UK internal market as much as possible of the goods that it currently imports.

This would be easily financed by scrapping vanity projects such as HS2 etc until sometime in the future.

It can then make a start on external trade deals, dealing with the necessities first and moving outwards from there.

No point in trying to run before you can walk.

Get the basics correct and everything else falls into place.

SgtRock · November 22, 2016

13 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I'd add getting rid of the waste of funding EU members money on the highest salaries and pensions possible/the ridiculous way bureaucratic empires are built/ and many other ridiculous EU idiosyncracies that waste a lot of EU money.

I'm suprised that the eruocrats haven't already changed policies to head off a likely defeat in other EU countries. Perhaps they really believe that brexit was an aberration and they can continue in the same way?

I really hope, but will not hold my breath, that the EUrocrats believe that Brexit was an aberration.

I honestly believe that they are so useless that they have no idea what to do.

Self preservation is currently leaving them more useless than they normally are.

SgtRock · November 22, 2016

12 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

It must be quite irritating for the Hard Brexiteers screaming about the EU abyss non-stop, while smiling wanly as Theresa May seemingly having to concede promises to the CBI and business leaders that she isn't going to drop them in it. Or 'er rather, out of it.

Not in the slightest.

But it is going to be a severe rocket up the @ss for the serial deniers, if and when it happens.

I actually wrote this with you in mind.

Plan and prepare for the worse case scenario and anything better is a bonus.

AlexRich · November 22, 2016

16 minutes ago, SgtRock said:

IMO it will not.

What happens in the next 1-3 years is a product of the EU's inability to adapt, change and move forward.

So many might's, could's and if's in that paragraph that it is not even worth talking about. I do not live my life on might's, could's or if's and I hope you do not either.

I do not know who many times I have to say this. The EUrocrats craniums are stuck so far up their collective posteriors that they cannot see anything, never mind he abyss that everyone else can see and is warning about.

The point about 'depends on what happens' is the qualification statement ... as neither you nor I actually know ... except that you appear to have a 'certainty' about all things relating to Europe?

So unless you are the all-knowing seer, we all have to consider what they could and might do ... none of the suggestions where outside the realms of possibility. Countries, companies and people evolve and adapt to circumstances.

Your whole theory is based on the ultimate collapse and disintegration of the EU ... it never seems to cross your mind that there are many possible outcomes, and that people are quite cap[able of evolving and adapting to changing circumstances. For example, I never thought I'd see the day when Martin McGuiness and Ian Paisley worked closely together in the same administration ... but it happened. The EU will adapt and evolve ... not collapse.

dick dasterdly · November 22, 2016

1 minute ago, SgtRock said:

Not in the slightest.

But it is going to be a severe rocket up the @ss for the serial deniers, if and when it happens.

I actually wrote this with you in mind.

Plan and prepare for the worse case scenario and anything better is a bonus.

Agree entirely that if the EU collapses it will be a nightmare for the serial deniers and - more importantly the eurocats.

But at the moment we are waiting to see whether the eurocrats will come up with a face-saving solution to encourage those who are seriously unhappy with the current policies. As I mentioned before, I'm suprised/shocked that they haven't done so already!

dick dasterdly · November 22, 2016

5 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

The point about 'depends on what happens' is the qualification statement ... as neither you nor I actually know ... except that you appear to have a 'certainty' about all things relating to Europe?

So unless you are the all-knowing seer, we all have to consider what they could and might do ... none of the suggestions where outside the realms of possibility. Countries, companies and people evolve and adapt to circumstances.

Your whole theory is based on the ultimate collapse and disintegration of the EU ... it never seems to cross your mind that there are many possible outcomes, and that people are quite cap[able of evolving and adapting to changing circumstances. For example, I never thought I'd see the day when Martin McGuiness and Ian Paisley worked closely together in the same administration ... but it happened. The EU will adapt and evolve ... not collapse.

Re. the last paragraph - how many years did that take?

Whereas the EU has a very short window of opportunity to start showing willingness to change - and they're doing nothing of the sort .

AlexRich · November 22, 2016

1 minute ago, dick dasterdly said:

Re. the last paragraph - how many years did that take?

Whereas the EU has a very short window of opportunity to start showing willingness to change - and they're doing nothing of the sort .

It happened when all parties realised that it needed to ... and that can happen in twenty years, or tomorrow, depending on the circumstances. But your betting on the Euro countries sitting back and allowing the whole project to disintegrate because they're not willing to make any changes? Politicians?

SheungWan · November 22, 2016

Some of these guys appear to be living in their own parallel Mad Max world.

SgtRock · November 22, 2016

9 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

The point about 'depends on what happens' is the qualification statement ... as neither you nor I actually know ... except that you appear to have a 'certainty' about all things relating to Europe?

So unless you are the all-knowing seer, we all have to consider what they could and might do ... none of the suggestions where outside the realms of possibility. Countries, companies and people evolve and adapt to circumstances.

Your whole theory is based on the ultimate collapse and disintegration of the EU ... it never seems to cross your mind that there are many possible outcomes, and that people are quite cap[able of evolving and adapting to changing circumstances. For example, I never thought I'd see the day when Martin McGuiness and Ian Paisley worked closely together in the same administration ... but it happened. The EU will adapt and evolve ... not collapse.

That is where we differ.

My theory as you call it, is not my theory. Hence the reason that I produce external sources for the vast majority of my posts.

Just one last thing.

Can you tell me what day you seen McGuiness and Paisley working closely together ?

I can tell you, that never happened. They might have been in the same building and they might have looked good in photo shoots. That is as far as it went

SgtRock · November 22, 2016

9 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Re. the last paragraph - how many years did that take?

Whereas the EU has a very short window of opportunity to start showing willingness to change - and they're doing nothing of the sort .

They do not have a short window to start showing willingness to change.

They had that window in February, instead they chose to send Camoron scuttling back to the UK believing that they were safe and secure in their little bubble.

That was a classic example of the EU's ability and willingness to adapt, change and move forward.

I think the correct phrase would be '' Blew it big time ''

AlexRich · November 22, 2016

3 minutes ago, SgtRock said:

That is where we differ.

My theory as you call it, is not my theory. Hence the reason that I produce external sources for the vast majority of my posts.

Just one last thing.

Can you tell me what day you seen McGuiness and Paisley working closely together ?

I can tell you, that never happened. They might have been in the same building and they might have looked good in photo shoots. That is as far as it went

I'm not going searching for citations, but it was reported that they worked well together ... the quip "Chuckle Brothers" was used to describe them, if I am not mistaken ... whatever the truth what happened is a far cry from "no surrender"!

dick dasterdly · November 22, 2016

6 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

It happened when all parties realised that it needed to ... and that can happen in twenty years, or tomorrow, depending on the circumstances. But your betting on the Euro countries sitting back and allowing the whole project to disintegrate because they're not willing to make any changes? Politicians?

But that's the odd thing. At the moment, they seem to be ignoring what's happening!

I don't understand it either.

AlexRich · November 22, 2016

2 minutes ago, SgtRock said:

They do not have a short window to start showing willingness to change.

They had that window in February, instead they chose to send Camoron scuttling back to the UK believing that they were safe and secure in their little bubble.

That was a classic example of the EU's ability and willingness to adapt, change and move forward.

I think the correct phrase would be '' Blew it big time ''

Cameron told them all he would win ... not a ridiculous statement to make at that particular time. The UK leaving is a blow for some countries, but an opportunity for others ... and as they are not in the Euro it's doable, Greece leaving was containable ... Italy and France are game changers ... and that's when you'll see some shifting in positions. There's not enough 'pain' at the moment so no one's crying uncle. Yet.

AlexRich · November 22, 2016

5 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

But that's the odd thing. At the moment, they seem to be ignoring what's happening!

I don't understand it either.

It appears to be the case that they change only when pushed as far as they can go ... very far by the look of it. An Italian referendum would be a case in point ... but whatever happens in Italy in December that is a long way away; you'd need an election for a start. And Le Pen would need to have a referendum also ... if she wins. Then you'd see change.

dick dasterdly · November 22, 2016

5 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

It appears to be the case that they change only when pushed as far as they can go ... very far by the look of it. An Italian referendum would be a case in point ... but whatever happens in Italy in December that is a long way away; you'd need an election for a start. And Le Pen would need to have a referendum also ... if she wins. Then you'd see change.

Depressing that the eurocracy need to be pushed to the brink before thinking about change .

But then again Brit politicians are the same as are the politicians in other EU 'paying' countries.

Edit - plus of course the PM of Hungary, who is fighting hard against allowing 'refugees' into the country. If those 'refugees' are anything like those 'children' brought into the UK, I can understand his concern .

Edited November 22, 2016 by dick dasterdly

SgtRock · November 22, 2016

This is brilliant

6 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

Cameron told them all he would win

Highlights the ineptitude prevalent throughout the hallowed halls of the EU. They should have adapted, changed and moved forward to ensure that he won.

8 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

The UK leaving is a blow for some countries, but an opportunity for others

This will be interesting.

What Countries will it be a blow to and what Countries will it be an opportunity for ?

9 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

Greece leaving was containable

I doubt it, or they would have been kicked out. Basket case then, basket case now and no chance of ever becoming anything other than a basket case.

Greece was kept in because of the fear of the domino effect.

11 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

There's not enough 'pain' at the moment so no one's crying uncle. Yet.

I think you will find that the pain you refer to, is one of the leading causes of the rise of the so called right.

One of the main causes is the ECB and its Monetary policy. If you look for it, you will see that the Bundesbank has been very critical in the press of the ECB.

https://www.fxstreet.com/news/059b4400-3fbb-40f9-805d-2ff621a56a61

The EU. The epitome of Political and Monetary harmony

Laughing Gravy · November 22, 2016

1 hour ago, SgtRock said:

What happens in the next 1-3 years is a product of the EU's inability to adapt, change and move forward.

Exactly and that will be its destruction. It's inability or willing.

Edited November 22, 2016 by Laughing Gravy

AlexRich · November 22, 2016

2 hours ago, SgtRock said:

This is brilliant

Highlights the ineptitude prevalent throughout the hallowed halls of the EU. They should have adapted, changed and moved forward to ensure that he won.

This will be interesting.

What Countries will it be a blow to and what Countries will it be an opportunity for ?

I doubt it, or they would have been kicked out. Basket case then, basket case now and no chance of ever becoming anything other than a basket case.

Greece was kept in because of the fear of the domino effect.

I think you will find that the pain you refer to, is one of the leading causes of the rise of the so called right.

One of the main causes is the ECB and its Monetary policy. If you look for it, you will see that the Bundesbank has been very critical in the press of the ECB.

https://www.fxstreet.com/news/059b4400-3fbb-40f9-805d-2ff621a56a61

The EU. The epitome of Political and Monetary harmony

The EU will be here - in some shape or form - when all on here are dead ... letting Greece go would not be a problem, and Schauble was keen to see them go. The UK is outside the Eurozone, an issue but doable. Italy and France another story, the EU will have to act decisively should they get to the point of calling referendums. Something that is some way off, given both would need elections. But if they have to, they will. Like the May Government, they are more interested in their political futures than any set of principles.

Throughout history there have been crises far worse than anything going on today ... Europe will adapt and move on ... even if it has to give up some of its principles.

You're obsessed with extreme outcomes, only a disaster will satisfy you ... prepare to be disappointed.

SgtRock · November 22, 2016

25 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

The EU will be here - in some shape or form - when all on here are dead

I have consistently said that the EU as we currently know it is dying. Whether it has any shape or form remains to be seen.

27 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

the EU will have to act decisively should they get to the point of calling referendums

Can you give me an example of when the EU has ever acted decisively when faced with a crisis ?

28 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

Europe will adapt and move on ... even if it has to give up some of its principles.

As has been stated many, many times, by every man and has dog, including Merkel and Schauble, who are German Politicians, not EU Politicians, there is no movement on the 4 pillars of the EU. The EU is backed into a corner and has nowhere to turn.

30 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

You're obsessed with extreme outcomes, only a disaster will satisfy you ... prepare to be disappointed.

I am never disappointed.

Plan and prepare for the worse case scenario and anything better is a bonus.

SgtRock · November 22, 2016

On 11/22/2016 at 6:00 PM, AlexRich said:

Europe will adapt and move on ... even if it has to give up some of its principles.

Here is a great example from today of the EU being able to adapt and move on, and an indication of how willing it will be to give up some of its principles.

At an informal meeting between Davis and Verhofstadt, remember no formal negotiations will take place before A50 is invoked ( Cough Cough )

Quote

Verhofstadt reiterated the EU position on Tuesday. “These four freedoms are key; they are a basic element of the European Union -- the freedom of movement of goods, of services, of capital and of people,” he said. “We will certainly never accept whatever development where these four freedoms are put at risk.”

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-11-22/verhofstadt-says-u-k-agrees-brexit-talks-should-end-by-mid-2019

The main EU negotiator has just stated that the EU '' Will never accept whatever development where these 4 freedoms are put at risk '' oblivious, or to the fact that his and the EU's stance is the very thing that will be its downfall.

Edited November 26, 2016 by metisdead
Oversize font in quoted content reset to normal.

AlexRich · November 22, 2016

53 minutes ago, SgtRock said:

Here is a great example from today of the EU being able to adapt and move on, and an indication of how willing it will be to give up some of its principles.

At an informal meeting between Davis and Verhofstadt, remember no formal negotiations will take place before A50 is invoked ( Cough Cough )

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-11-22/verhofstadt-says-u-k-agrees-brexit-talks-should-end-by-mid-2019

The main EU negotiator has just stated that the EU '' Will never accept whatever development where these 4 freedoms are put at risk '' oblivious, or to the fact that his and the EU's stance is the very thing that will be its downfall.

The "main EU negotiator" is hardly likely to say anything other than this now, is he? Is this really a great example, or just a great example of how you fail to understand the positioning that takes place prior to a negotiation?

But this refers to Brexit talks, not the wider EU issues. The EU is not yet at the point where it has to change anything radically, so why would it?

AlexRich · November 22, 2016

1 hour ago, SgtRock said:

I have consistently said that the EU as we currently know it is dying. Whether it has any shape or form remains to be seen.

Can you give me an example of when the EU has ever acted decisively when faced with a crisis ?

As has been stated many, many times, by every man and has dog, including Merkel and Schauble, who are German Politicians, not EU Politicians, there is no movement on the 4 pillars of the EU. The EU is backed into a corner and has nowhere to turn.

I am never disappointed.

Plan and prepare for the worse case scenario and anything better is a bonus.

I'm surprised you spend any time on here. Can we presume that you've already built the nuclear bunker, and filled it with baked beans and water?

The "End is Nigh" seems to be your motto!

SgtRock · November 22, 2016

6 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

The "main EU negotiator" is hardly likely to say anything other than this now, is he? Is this really a great example, or just a great example of how you fail to understand the positioning that takes place prior to a negotiation?

But this refers to Brexit talks, not the wider EU issues. The EU is not yet at the point where it has to change anything radically, so why would it?

Merkel and Schauble are not EU politicians are they ? So it is not just the main EU negotiator.

Of course it refers to Brexit talks. That is the what the thread is about after all. Brexit and the EU.

8 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

The EU is not yet at the point where it has to change anything radically, so why would it?

The EU cannot radically change, it needs 27 Countries to agree to radical change and hell will freeze over before that come about.

I will ask you the same question again to your ludicrous assertion.

1 hour ago, AlexRich said:

the EU will have to act decisively should they get to the point of calling referendums.

1 hour ago, SgtRock said:

Can you give me an example of when the EU has ever acted decisively when faced with a crisis ?

You are fading fast.

SgtRock · November 22, 2016

12 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

I'm surprised you spend any time on here. Can we presume that you've already built the nuclear bunker, and filled it with baked beans and water?

The "End is Nigh" seems to be your motto!

Seems to me that the above is just off topic nonsense. I had a fleeting hope today that you might actually manage to engage in decent debate, but that seems like that was a task too far.

Just to humour you on the above off topic nonsense.

Why would I build a nuclear bunker ?

If you had any clue to the effect of a nuclear holocaust you would know and pray that you were killed in the 1st strike.

I have never said the '' End is nigh ''

What I have said. Is that if the EUrocrats do not pull their craniums from the posteriors they will be responsible for the break-up of the EU and the potential carnage that will ensue.

Goodbye.

AlexRich · November 22, 2016

1 hour ago, SgtRock said:

Merkel and Schauble are not EU politicians are they ? So it is not just the main EU negotiator.

Of course it refers to Brexit talks. That is the what the thread is about after all. Brexit and the EU.

The EU cannot radically change, it needs 27 Countries to agree to radical change and hell will freeze over before that come about.

I will ask you the same question again to your ludicrous assertion.

You are fading fast.

The only ludicrous assertions on here are the constant predictions of meltdown and catastrophe that emanate from your posts. Whatever argument, example, citation, etc provided to you is pointless as you cannot see beyond your own doom laden predictions.

I'm going to keep looking in though ... as your predictions fail to materialise. Will you just fade away, or stick around and own that failure?

AlexRich · November 22, 2016

1 hour ago, SgtRock said:

Seems to me that the above is just off topic nonsense. I had a fleeting hope today that you might actually manage to engage in decent debate, but that seems like that was a task too far.

Just to humour you on the above off topic nonsense.

Why would I build a nuclear bunker ?

If you had any clue to the effect of a nuclear holocaust you would know and pray that you were killed in the 1st strike.

I have never said the '' End is nigh ''

What I have said. Is that if the EUrocrats do not pull their craniums from the posteriors they will be responsible for the break-up of the EU and the potential carnage that will ensue.

Goodbye.

As ever, the same old nonsense repeated ad nauseum ... I'm only grateful that no one has mentioned Deutsche Bank!

dick dasterdly · November 22, 2016

1 hour ago, AlexRich said:

The "main EU negotiator" is hardly likely to say anything other than this now, is he? Is this really a great example, or just a great example of how you fail to understand the positioning that takes place prior to a negotiation?

But this refers to Brexit talks, not the wider EU issues. The EU is not yet at the point where it has to change anything radically, so why would it?

To stop other EU countries voting for politicians that a few years ago would have been a minority vote - and are becoming mainstream?

dick dasterdly · November 22, 2016

2 hours ago, SgtRock said:

Here is a great example from today of the EU being able to adapt and move on, and an indication of how willing it will be to give up some of its principles.

At an informal meeting between Davis and Verhofstadt, remember no formal negotiations will take place before A50 is invoked ( Cough Cough )

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-11-22/verhofstadt-says-u-k-agrees-brexit-talks-should-end-by-mid-2019

The main EU negotiator has just stated that the EU '' Will never accept whatever development where these 4 freedoms are put at risk '' oblivious, or to the fact that his and the EU's stance is the very thing that will be its downfall.

Happy to read that I'm not the only one thinking negotiations are already happening between the UK and EU!

AlexRich · November 22, 2016

21 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

To stop other EU countries voting for politicians that a few years ago would have been a minority vote - and are becoming mainstream?

Agree, but they don't believe they are at that stage ... yet.

dick dasterdly · November 22, 2016

1 hour ago, AlexRich said:

Agree, but they don't believe they are at that stage ... yet.

In which case they really are in denial.....

Leaving it until other EU countries have elected politicians whose platform was anti immigration and EU, has to be a bad idea.

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