May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[SheungWan]

1 hour ago, Khun Han said:

 

Correction: the LibDems will get the support they've always got, from people with 'nice' accents and slightly (but not greatly) privileged educations, who are often far less intelligent than they like to think they are .

 

Chips on shoulder ahoy!

[Khun Han]

13 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

 

Chips on shoulder ahoy!

 

Nah, just a tongue-in-cheek riposte to Grouse's (hopefully) tongue-in-cheek post about the LibDems getting the intelligent vote.

 

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, Khun Han said:

 

Nah, just a tongue-in-cheek riposte to Grouse's (hopefully) tongue-in-cheek post about the LibDems getting the intelligent vote.

 

 

Actually I said the thinking people...

 

You keep bringing up intelligence, not me ?

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

 More tosh. You're bigging up people who are mostly the product of second-rate countries, where they were successful because they learned how to work the highly corrupt systems in those countries. Not for nothing is the EU's main base in Belgium, a country long established in the business world as the European mecca of corruption. This competed to the UK, which has been at the world's top table throughout it's modern history (again, for very good reasons). And you write as though our current ministers are lone rangers, not supported by a civil sevice which has kept us at said top table.

 

Tosh?

 

http://www.worldaudit.org/corruption.htm

[Khun Han]

6 hours ago, Grouse said:

 

Actually I said the thinking people...

 

You keep bringing up intelligence, not me ?

 

Is splitting hairs a personal hobby? 

[Khun Han]

6 hours ago, Grouse said:

 

Tosh?

 

http://www.worldaudit.org/corruption.htm

 

Instead of referencing recent world audit tables, you should educate yourself on the modern history of Belgian corruption. The institutionalised corruption exposed by the Marc Dutroux criminal case is it's nadir, and you don't have to go anywhwere near the conspiracy theories to fill your boots with that one.

[Laughing Gravy]

It would seem all that doom and gloom, end of the world due to brexit is, well total BS. I wonder if Osborne, Cameron et all get prosecuted for fake news

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/30/britain-has-secured-15billion-extra-foreign-investment-since/

 

"Based on current projections it is expected that the Government will now meet or exceed the £983billion in foreign direct investment pledged between 2015 and 2016.

Dr Fox said the investment shows that countries across the world are betting on “our strong economy post-Brexit”.

Senior Leave campaigners including Michael Gove and Iain Duncan Smith, both former Cabinet ministers, last night hailed the figures and hit out at the “prophets of doom” who predicted economic disaster after Brexit"

[sandyf]

On 12/27/2016 at 4:10 PM, jpinx said:

The only circumvention here is the Remainers trying to get around the result of the referendum - on which result the then-PM assured the electorate action would be taken to respect the wishes of the people.   Thank goodness TM has continued in that vein or democracy would be lying dead in the gutter.

How on earth can brexiteers shout democracy when they are in fact supporting autocracy.

 

Speaking to The Guardian about Brexit and Mrs May’s current stance, the Labour leader said: “It would have to come to Parliament. She cannot hide behind Henry VIII and the divine rights of the power of kings on this one.

“The idea that on something as major as this the prime minister would use the royal prerogative to bypass parliament is extraordinary – I don’t know where she’s coming from."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-henry-viii-behaving-brexit-vote-jeremy-corbyn-labour-leader-prime-minister-a7501086.html

[jpinx]

2 hours ago, sandyf said:

How on earth can brexiteers shout democracy when they are in fact supporting autocracy.

 

Speaking to The Guardian about Brexit and Mrs May’s current stance, the Labour leader said: “It would have to come to Parliament. She cannot hide behind Henry VIII and the divine rights of the power of kings on this one.

“The idea that on something as major as this the prime minister would use the royal prerogative to bypass parliament is extraordinary – I don’t know where she’s coming from."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-henry-viii-behaving-brexit-vote-jeremy-corbyn-labour-leader-prime-minister-a7501086.html

"The Labour Leader"  ???  Who's turn is it these days?

[jimmybkk]

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

How on earth can brexiteers shout democracy when they are in fact supporting autocracy.

 

Speaking to The Guardian about Brexit and Mrs May’s current stance, the Labour leader said: “It would have to come to Parliament. She cannot hide behind Henry VIII and the divine rights of the power of kings on this one.

“The idea that on something as major as this the prime minister would use the royal prerogative to bypass parliament is extraordinary – I don’t know where she’s coming from."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-henry-viii-behaving-brexit-vote-jeremy-corbyn-labour-leader-prime-minister-a7501086.html

 

Kindly highlight how the referendum was not democratic Sandy.

[Grouse]

5 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

Is splitting hairs a personal hobby? 

 

Yes indeed! With my finely honed Occam's razor ?

[sandyf]

2 hours ago, jimmybkk said:

 

Kindly highlight how the referendum was not democratic Sandy.

Maybe you can point out where I mentioned the referendum.

The point being that the UK is a parliamentary democracy and cannot be bypassed by autocracy.

 

It doesn't really matter how democratic people think the referendum was, it has no legal standing. TM thought she could throw parliamentary procedure out the window and has ended up in a legal minefield.

The EU is not obliged to accept Article 50 if there is any doubt over its legality in respect of the UK constitution.

[7by7]

The 1975 referendum was also not legally binding, but everyone accepted that the result would be the final say on the matter; which it was. The difference between then and 2016 being that the terms for the UK's continued membership of what was then the EEC had already been negotiated and agreed by Parliament before the referendum was held. Whereas in 2016 the terms of the UK's relationship with the EU should the vote be to leave would not be negotiated until and unless the vote was to leave.

 

In their 2015 manifesto the Tories promised a referendum and having won the general election assured the people that they would accept the referendum result and act upon it.

 

Parliament approved the referendum bill, which became the European Union Referendum Act 2015, and Parliament made it clear at that time that the decision of the British people as expressed in the referendum should, and would,  settle whether the UK remained in the EU or left.

 

So, even though the referendum result is not legally binding, May and her government not only have a clear mandate from the British people to trigger Article 50, but also a mandate, given before the referendum was even held, from Parliament to respect and act upon the referendum result.

 

That is democracy and should not, in my view, be sabotaged by the courts due to a constitutional technicality.

 

Since then, an Opposition motion in early December to trigger Article 50 by the end of next March was passed with a majority of nearly 400.

 

Having said that, I do believe that the final agreement reached between the UK and the EU should be put to, and agreed by, Parliament.

 

 

[Orac]

The 1975 referendum was also not legally binding, but everyone accepted that the result would be the final say on the matter; which it was. The difference between then and 2016 being that the terms for the UK's continued membership of what was then the EEC had already been negotiated and agreed by Parliament before the referendum was held. Whereas in 2016 the terms of the UK's relationship with the EU should the vote be to leave would not be negotiated until and unless the vote was to leave.
 
In their 2015 manifesto the Tories promised a referendum and having won the general election assured the people that they would accept the referendum result and act upon it.
 
Parliament approved the referendum bill, which became the European Union Referendum Act 2015, and Parliament made it clear at that time that the decision of the British people as expressed in the referendum should, and would,  settle whether the UK remained in the EU or left.
 
So, even though the referendum result is not legally binding, May and her government not only have a clear mandate from the British people to trigger Article 50, but also a mandate, given before the referendum was even held, from Parliament to respect and act upon the referendum result.
 
That is democracy and should not, in my view, be sabotaged by the courts due to a constitutional technicality.
 
Since then, an Opposition motion in early December to trigger Article 50 by the end of next March was passed with a majority of nearly 400.
 
Having said that, I do believe that the final agreement reached between the UK and the EU should be put to, and agreed by, Parliament.
 
 

I would agree with you up to a point though the Tory manifesto of 2015 did also make several references to how they would support the UK position within the single market.

Though there is a mandate from 'the people' for the UK to leave the EU, TM has clearly stated that she wants to include our ongoing dealings with the EU in the withdrawal negotiations and thus, basically, negotiate a new treaty deal of some sort be it within the single market or an ongoing free trade deal which should not be done without the the full scrutiny of parliament if not a further referendum. It is interesting to note that prior to the referendum being called it was being suggested that there would need to be a second referendum to accept the terms of any new deal by key leave politicians such as David Davis.

"In a speech in Westminster, hosted by Conservativehome.com, Mr Davis proposed a two-stage referendum. The first would ask whether the public wanted to renegotiate Britain’s relationship with the EU and the second would ask whether any resulting new deal was good enough or whether Britain should quit Europe."

http://www.daviddavismp.com/1233/

Though, to be honest, seeing how divisive the first referendum has been, I think this should remain a decision of parliament.

[7by7]

5 hours ago, Orac said:

<snip>

It is interesting to note that prior to the referendum being called it was being suggested that there would need to be a second referendum to accept the terms of any new deal by key leave politicians such as David Davis.

"In a speech in Westminster, hosted by Conservativehome.com, Mr Davis proposed a two-stage referendum. The first would ask whether the public wanted to renegotiate Britain’s relationship with the EU and the second would ask whether any resulting new deal was good enough or whether Britain should quit Europe."

http://www.daviddavismp.com/1233/

Though, to be honest, seeing how divisive the first referendum has been, I think this should remain a decision of parliament.

 

 

That is, indeed, what Davis was saying in 2014.

 

However, the question on the referendum ballot paper was quite clear: "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?"

 

The options given were

• Remain a member of the European Union or
• Leave the European Union.

No ifs, buts or maybes; a clear question with a clear response.

 

It is unfortunate that a small majority of those who voted did vote to leave and I believe that is a decision the country will come to regret. But as a democrat I accept that decision and what is now important for the country is to get on with negotiating the best possible post Brexit trade deal with the EU.

 

Then, as you say above and as I and others have said before, that deal should be put to Parliament for their approval.

Edited December 31, 2016 by 7by7

[jpinx]

Spain is starting 2017 nicely :)  It might shake things up quite well for the Brexit talks, though there is no clear idea about what happens to Spain's EU membership. 

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38477348

 

 

[Srikcir]

8 minutes ago, jpinx said:

Spain is starting 2017 nicely :)  It might shake things up quite well for the Brexit talks, though there is no clear idea about what happens to Spain's EU membership. 

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38477348

 

 

Are you sure about this link?

It's about the Spanish state of Catalonia conducting its own referendum on independence from Spain.

What's the connection with EU?

[Grouse]

12 minutes ago, jpinx said:

Spain is starting 2017 nicely :)  It might shake things up quite well for the Brexit talks, though there is no clear idea about what happens to Spain's EU membership. 

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38477348

 

 

 

But you don't fancy Scottish independence?

 

Both Spanish and Catalans are pro EU....

[jpinx]

19 minutes ago, Srikcir said:

Are you sure about this link?

It's about the Spanish state of Catalonia conducting its own referendum on independence from Spain.

What's the connection with EU?

A typical question demonstrating an inability to consider the bigger picture of the EU and it's members.  TM will use every lever available to her when negotiating the deal for UK.  Attention to what else is happening with EU members is vital when you remember that EU have stated that everyone must agree the UK's deal as an independent country.

[onthesoi]

6 minutes ago, jpinx said:

A typical question demonstrating an inability to consider the bigger picture of the EU and it's members.  TM will use every lever available to her when negotiating the deal for UK.  Attention to what else is happening with EU members is vital when you remember that EU have stated that everyone must agree the UK's deal as an independent country.

 

What kind of deal do you imagine the UK will get from the EU?

 

Don't you think the EU will be looking to make sure the UK will be worse off, to send the message to other EU countries who might be considering their own departure?

 

 

[onthesoi]

On 29/12/2016 at 4:28 AM, HauptmannUK said:

A lot of folks are going to be in for a really nasty shock once negotiations get under way and reality starts to bite...

 

Yes, immigration will be completely unaffected(shock! horror!) the only noticeable difference will  be paying 20% for almost everything

 

....I can't want to see the look on their little faces when the Brexiteers tear open their ' big present' only to reveal a steaming pile of excrement..

[jpinx]

3 minutes ago, onthesoi said:

 

What kind of deal do you imagine the UK will get from the EU?

 

Don't you think the EU will be looking to make sure the UK will be worse off, to send the message to other EU countries who might be considering their own departure?

 

 

My opinion is worth no more and no less than anyone else's.  It's fair to say that there has been an attempt by hardliners in EU to make UK pay, but at the same time there have been clear indications of willingness to much more magnanimous.  It would be nice to end up in the middle ground and not be controlled by extremist hardliners of either side. 

 

[Srikcir]

1 hour ago, jpinx said:

EU have stated that everyone must agree the UK's deal as an independent country

So your link regarding independence of Catalonia from Spain is erroneous as it deal with a completely unrelated political event that has no connection with Brexit.

I get it. Thanks for your obscurity.

[Scott]

Baiting posts removed.  Please stay on topic.   Members are under no obligation to engage in discussions if they do not wish to do so.  

 

 

[jpinx]

An interesting insight into TM's thinking - but no surprises...

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-38478619

 

.....and an "Idiots Guide" to Brexit by the BBC ..

also interesting to see what they include, and - more importantly - what they *don't* mention. 

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-37761607

[SheungWan]

On 12/30/2016 at 3:34 PM, sandyf said:

Maybe you can point out where I mentioned the referendum.

The point being that the UK is a parliamentary democracy and cannot be bypassed by autocracy.

 

It doesn't really matter how democratic people think the referendum was, it has no legal standing. TM thought she could throw parliamentary procedure out the window and has ended up in a legal minefield.

The EU is not obliged to accept Article 50 if there is any doubt over its legality in respect of the UK constitution.

 

The procedure for applying for Article 50 will be resolved by the Supreme Court later this month. Current legal status is that the High Court has ruled Royal Prerogative an invalid procedure as wished by the UK government.

[nontabury]

2 hours ago, jpinx said:

An interesting insight into TM's thinking - but no surprises...

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-38478619

 

.....and an "Idiots Guide" to Brexit by the BBC ..

also interesting to see what they include, and - more importantly - what they *don't* mention. 

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-37761607

 

Let's just  exclude the sheep, then ask ourselves,do the thinking people still take any notice of the Brussels Broadcasting Corporation.

Edited January 1, 2017 by nontabury

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, nontabury said:

 

Let's just  exclude the sheep, then ask ourselves,do the thinking people still take any notice of the Brussels Broadcasting Corporation.

That's according to Niall Ferguson, a prominent historian who quit the U.K. nearly five years ago in search a higher intellectual quality of life in the United States.

 

Hahaha! Jeez! Is he on Twitter?

 

As for Brussels Broadcasting Corporation, I assume that's a cheap shot at the BBC.

 

For 2017, Please turn over a new leaf and be polite; considerate even! 

[sandyf]

On 12/30/2016 at 5:46 PM, 7by7 said:

 

That is democracy and should not, in my view, be sabotaged by the courts due to a constitutional technicality.

 

There would never have been a court case if the correct constitutional procedure had been followed in the first place.

[sandyf]

On 12/31/2016 at 7:03 PM, onthesoi said:

 

What kind of deal do you imagine the UK will get from the EU?

 

Don't you think the EU will be looking to make sure the UK will be worse off, to send the message to other EU countries who might be considering their own departure?

 

 

Exactly. Messages aside, no institution ever provides better benefits to associate members than fully paid up members, and even less to total non members.

 

Mission impossible?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-impact-car-industry-germany-warning-single-market-theresa-may-matthias-wissman-a7501856.html