Water pump problems

[Artisi]

Suggestions, sketch the town supply and pump connection relative to each other, show inter-connections etc. 

 

[Charlie Cabana]

Thank you. Will take a day or two. No scanner at home.

[Artisi]

3 hours ago, Charlie Cabana said:

Thank you. Will take a day or two. No scanner at home.

Sketch, photograph and post. 

[Charlie Cabana]

I sketched the system, took it to an internet cafe, they scanned it onto a pdf file, but I can't attach the pdf file here. Suggestions? 

[Crossy]

4 minutes ago, Charlie Cabana said:

I sketched the system, took it to an internet cafe, they scanned it onto a pdf file, but I can't attach the pdf file here. Suggestions? 

 

A ,pdf should attach

 

Groundwire Mk2 book-Manual.pdf

 

Seems to work for me, how big is the file?

 

EDIT If it still won't attach PM me for my email address and email it to me.

[Artisi]

see my earlier post, sketch it, photograph and post just as you did with your photos of the installation.

[Charlie Cabana]

Ok. Thank you.

pump.pdf

[Crossy]

You need a non-return valve at point X (flow direction away from the meter)

 

 

It should be something like this, I don't think you're far off.

 

[RichCor]

On 4/17/2017 at 9:27 AM, Charlie Cabana said:

I have a Hitachi water pump. The type with a round base that is the pressure tank.
My pump cycles on when I'm not using water, and the frequency of the cycling on depends on the temperature. If it's clear and sunny, it will not cycle on from about 10 AM to midnight. Then it will start cycling on every 5 minutes or so. Then from about 7 AM to 10 AM, every interval between cycling on will be progressively longer. Your thoughts?



 

 

As @Crossy noted, your system is missing a non-return valve (anti-siphon/backflow preventer) so currently allows water to constantly recycle from the pump back into your tank inlet in a never ending cycle.

 

Adding a non-return at the red X @Crossy indicated would allow the system to operate properly. 

[Crossy]

2 minutes ago, RichCor said:

Adding a non-return at the red X @Crossy indicated would allow the system to operate properly. 

 

And, it would be fully automatic, no going out in the rain to change valves, just turn the pump off when you want to use city pressure

 

 

[Moonlover]

Lots of of answers here that are far too complicated, when the obvious problem is staring you in the face. FIX THE LEAKS!

[bankruatsteve]

2 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

Lots of of answers here that are far too complicated, when the obvious problem is staring you in the face. FIX THE LEAKS!

Very astute.  Perhaps you could identify the obvious leak to be fixed?

[Moonlover]

On 11/1/2016 at 6:51 PM, Elvenesse said:

A couple of our neighbours have indicated that it might be costing us money and we might have a leak somewhere (there's a small one in one of our bathrooms), but the language barrier prevents an in depth conversation.

 

This one for starters!

[Crossy]

12 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

This one for starters!

 

But we are talking about Charlie Cabana's issues.

 

He is missing a valve in his system.

 

EDIT which also explains the relationship between the cycling and the temperature.

[Charlie Cabana]

Thank you everyone for your help. Cheers, Charlie.

[Wirejerker]

7 hours ago, Crossy said:

EDIT which also explains the relationship between the cycling and the temperature.

Quantum leap. Can you explain it for me cause I missed something 

[Crossy]

Just now, Wirejerker said:

Quantum leap. Can you explain it for me cause I missed something 

 

Sure.

 

I'm assuming that (at least part of) the cycling was due to a re-circulating seepage through the (closed) tank ball valve.

 

Warm day, tank contents expands, forcing the valve tightly closed, no/less seepage, no/slower cycling.

 

QED.

 

Of course this could all be total b0ll0cks and it's all caused by restless spirits.

 

 

[Wirejerker]

10 minutes ago, Crossy said:

total b0ll0cks

Is the tank not vented to atmosphere?

[Crossy]

4 minutes ago, Wirejerker said:

Is the tank not vented to atmosphere?

 

It is, but it doesn't matter, the seepy ball valve (supposed to be closed) provides a limited bleed (just like a leak, but back into the system so no water loss).

[Artisi]

How much water do you use direct from the town supply (no pumping involved) - could be well worthwhile connecting the town supply directly to the tank and use the pump to supply the house 24/7. Unless you are using huge amounts of water the pumping costs will not break the bank and you can sleep easy without any worries .

[Wirejerker]

 

16 minutes ago, Artisi said:

How much water do you use direct from the town supply (no pumping involved) - could be well worthwhile connecting the town supply directly to the tank and use the pump to supply the house 24/7. Unless you are using huge amounts of water the pumping costs will not break the bank and you can sleep easy without any worries .

If Charlie puts a cock in next to the new non return valve at X he can have it both ways

[Artisi]

29 minutes ago, Wirejerker said:

 

If Charlie puts a cock in next to the new non return valve at X he can have it both ways

yes he can, my post was about convenience, set it up once and forget it. town supply keeps the tank full, water on demand as he needs it from the house pump - without worrying about changing valve settings, leakage of non-return valves etc. 

But up to Charlie - plenty of scenarios - pick the easiest and the one to give the least problems. 

[RichCor]

4 hours ago, Crossy said:

4 hours ago, Wirejerker said:

Quantum leap. Can you explain it for me cause I missed something 

Sure.

I'm assuming that (at least part of) the cycling was due to a re-circulating seepage through the (closed) tank ball valve.

Warm day, tank contents expands, forcing the valve tightly closed, no/less seepage, no/slower cycling.

QED.

Of course this could all be total b0ll0cks and it's all caused by restless spirits.

 

What I suspected happening was that his water line setup was missing the non-return so his water system was acting as the defacto water pressure reserve for the entire community connected to the water mains line.  When the mains water pressure dipped down, his pump would activate to compensate the community for their drop in water pressure and water availability.  

 

As water gets drained from the tank, its top off valve opened and becomes another tap drawing water (but in a circular cycle).

 

Currently, as it's piped, without the non-return a potential broken mains line will drain his tank if the pump is left plugged in.

[Artisi]

Just adding to the discussion, if the daily water usage is what you would consider normal for a home, the power used each day pumping all the water would be a few Bhat / day.   

[Wirejerker]

The jumper valve in the tap at the meter acted as a non return valve stopping water returning to the main. That the system worked at all is truly amazing and can only be attributed to the long runs of pipe between each component. If the ball cock in the tank is not sealed fully so it leaks water from the pressure side the pump then starts lowers the tank, opens the ball cock more so the pump is recycling to the tank, lifts the ball cock, pressure comes up and pump stops. Some where along the line the mains has to top up the system. Likens to grabbing your shoe laces and lifting yourself off the ground.


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[RichCor]

4 hours ago, Wirejerker said:

The jumper valve in the tap at the meter acted as a non return valve stopping water returning to the main.

 

I'm not sure that's always the case.

 

Quite a few houses in our village have both mains water run through meters provided by the local utility -and- well pumps. When their well pumps suck air they switch over to the metered municipal water, then when their wells have recharged they run the system 'open' so the meters run backwards, discharging into the municipal mains just enough to lower their bill without going too far.

 

For this reason I've been very reluctant to have metered municipal water as they don't require non-return backflow prevention on any of the lines they serve.

 

@Charlie Cabana stated they shut the water off at the meter when running the pump -- that would be the only reason (other than standing pressure) they weren't backfeeding into the municipal mains.

[Wirejerker]

6 hours ago, RichCor said:

Charlie Cabana stated they shut the water off at the meter when running the pump

My bad. Missed that bit

[Wirejerker]

Charlie would need to turn off both the village water and the tank inlet to run that

[Charlie Cabana]

My son has been visiting-so busy. I have the check valve, but have not installed it yet. I have my doubts that it will be the answer, because when I'm using the pump/tank, I turn off the valve at the meter and also the valve leading into the tank. The valves that I have closed have done the work of the check valve already-correct?

[Wirejerker]

No. The check valve does 3 things
1. stops pumping water into the village main
2. Stops recycling water to the tank
3. Allows village main to top up tank
Closing those valves only achieves 1 & 2.
Charlie you got a leak. Maybe in your pipe work underground.

Per chance do you have solar hot water


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