Do you prefer young staff or 35+ staff ? I think the 35+ are more reliable...

[georgemandm]

14 minutes ago, seancbk said:

 

I've been talking to Thais and they tell me that there are large numbers of university educated Thais who have debt from school loans but cannot find decent jobs, so they are having to take jobs paying 10-12,000 THB a month just to survive.

I'm talking about middle class Thais in Bangkok.   
 

Ok could be true but I have found in my years coming and going to thailand most are very lazy not all .

hop you do well best of luck and you will need lots of it here in thailand.

[NanLaew]

18 hours ago, Briggsy said:

1. Age is linked to seniority. Seniority specifies a Thai's place in the pecking order. Consequence, a new older member of staff who doesn't know the ropes (because she is new) may have to defer to and take instruction from a younger experienced member of staff. This is totally unnatural to Thais, leading to them feeling uncomfortable. They may quickly flip roles even though the younger is more experienced or they may fall out.

 

2. Age is linked to salary. The Thai salary system links pay to age. 2 members of staff aged say 50 and 25 doing exactly the same role may have a salary ratio of 3 : 1. This would be unheard of in the West. Consequence, older Thais employees expect more salary. Thai employers will go for the younger option when faced with the choice.

 

3. Age is linked to bossiness and face. From school age and in their twenties, Thais are taught and compelled to show deference and not to question seniors. When they hit their forties, it's payback time! Consequence, older staff may be unwilling to follow instructions and decide it is now their time to give the orders.

 

4. Thai employers are less likely to be interested in career development and sustainable human capital. Consequence. since the employer has not invested time and money in developing its staff, if the staff leave it is not so bad. In fact, it is an opportunity to get a younger, cheaper employee. Staff turnover is always viewed as a bad thing. Not always the case.

 

From that quite precise analysis, it appears both the Thai employee and employer have thoroughly embraced the standard Western employee/employer model.

[seancbk]

9 minutes ago, georgemandm said:

26 minutes ago, seancbk said:

 

I've been talking to Thais and they tell me that there are large numbers of university educated Thais who have debt from school loans but cannot find decent jobs, so they are having to take jobs paying 10-12,000 THB a month just to survive.

I'm talking about middle class Thais in Bangkok.   
 

 

Ok could be true but I have found in my years coming and going to thailand most are very lazy not all .

hop you do well best of luck and you will need lots of it here in thailand.

 

 

Thank you George.  I know you have extensive experience doing business here.

I know there will be challenges, there always are when you start a new business, but I think the potential rewards are worth it.   

Doing business here is really not much different to doing it in any Asian country.   The great thing about Thailand is it is still developing, so the middle class is growing and demanding more goods and services.  If you can provide them then there is a lot of money to be made.  The same goes for the neighbouring countries.

 

 

[NanLaew]

4 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

From that quite precise analysis, it appears both the Thai employee and employer have thoroughly embraced the standard Western employee/employer model.

And furthermore...

 

42 minutes ago, seancbk said:

 

I've been talking to Thais and they tell me that there are large numbers of university educated Thais who have debt from school loans but cannot find decent jobs, so they are having to take jobs paying 10-12,000 THB a month just to survive.

I'm talking about middle class Thais in Bangkok.   
 

[elliss]

13 hours ago, yellowboat said:

Small is beautiful in Thailand especially. 

 

  I prefer  being served  by  younger staff .

     The  customer is always right .

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

A lot of Thai companies, when they advertise for jobs, simply won't hire anyone over 30 or 35 years old.

 

I'm not sure I understand why, other than presumably wanting to be cheap.

 

But I have little doubt, that practice contributes to the generally horrible, unresponsive customer service that a lot of companies here provide. The staff are new or of short tenure, aren't personally invested in their jobs, and probably don't expect to remain there very long.

 

And perhaps, they figure they can treat their customers the same way they're treated by their employer.

 

[seancbk]

9 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

A lot of Thai companies, when they advertise for jobs, simply won't hire anyone over 30 or 35 years old.

 

I'm not sure I understand why, other than presumably wanting to be cheap.

 

But I have little doubt, that practice contributes to the generally horrible, unresponsive customer service that a lot of companies here provide. The staff are new or of short tenure, aren't personally invested in their jobs, and probably don't expect to remain there very long.

 

And perhaps, they figure they can treat their customers the same way they're treated by their employer.

 

 

I'm not sure what if any laws exist in Thailand to discourage employee discrimination.  

I don't know when exactly it changed in Hong Kong, but in the 90's it was common the see job ads that specified the applicant needed to be Female, pretty, under 30, no more than 50 kgs.

Perhaps Thailand still allows employers to discriminate based on the applicants looks or age?

[geriatrickid]

21 hours ago, seancbk said:

Do you think smart young Thais who get jobs with Google in Bangkok do so and then leave as soon as they can?    

If you have a company that rewards the staff then I see no reason why you wouldn't be able to retain good people.  

I may not be easy but we will offer plenty to encourage good people to stay with the company.    

 

Google is a bad example. No one and I mean no one can compete with Google, not even Microsoft. No one even bothers to recruit Google employees because the pay, benefits, working conditions etc are unmatchable. I have seen  what the employees get first hand and it explains why the employees are so in love with the company and why it is difficult to even get many of them to go home. Google has created the safety and ambiance of a loving family home. You would go broke trying to recreate that atmposphere.  However, i do wish to acknowledge the positive aspects of your statement.

 

21 hours ago, seancbk said:

35 years in Hong Kong, 8 years living in Bangkok.I think like an Asian in many ways.  
I have never lived in "the West".I have worked in factories in Hong Kong supervising Chinese workers (family businesses and non family businesses).

Working class Thais are not much different to working class HK Chinese.   Our factory workers here will be regular working class people.   
Some of the staff who will interact with customers might be from working class backgrounds, but some will be from more middle class backgrounds.
Managerial staff will more likely be middle class Thais.

Never been to Kansas ;-)

 

Hong Kong is very different from Thailand. The definition of working class is so fluid it cannot be defined. I am aghast at the work ethic of some, yet in awe of others. What I do know is that certain industries are more likely to attract duds, e.g. hospitality and retail service. Manufacturing jobs today do require skilled labour and to be blunt there is a shortage of that in Thailand. 84% of the labour in Thailand  is classified as unskilled. The June report of the World Bank's Thailand Economic Monitor said: “The working-age population of Thailand is expected to shrink by around 11 per cent as a share of the total population between now and 2040, from just under 49 million to around 40.5 million people.” This projected decline is higher in Thailand than in any developing country in East Asia, said the bank, which recommended action on labour productivity as a result. "

 

 This is why the auto and electronic manufacturers have trained their own workforces. As an aside, HIV/HCV infection,  vehicle incidents and general accidents combined with a reduced birth rate have had an impact upon the  male 25-40 years of age segment. The loss/impairment makes matters worse.

 

 

21 hours ago, seancbk said:

You obviously don't meet the types of Thais I meet.
Go along to some of the networking events where young Thais are talking about their latest app and raising 20 million baht to fund the development.
They absolutely get the concept of equity and performance based bonuses.

 

Perhaps some do, but seriously the business market is quite different than  IT klunks profeering their latest apps. You will be in manufacturing and the behaviour of some wobbly wonky IT hack has  no relationship to the chap who will be working on your shop floor or peddling your products.  I do understand your point and there are indeed intelligent and talented people in Thailand. However, it is unlikely any of them will make a beeline you unless you are super hansum and will be offering incentives of the carnal kind whilst you serenade them with the latest hits of some some odious Thai chanteur/chanteuse.

 

 

20 hours ago, seancbk said:

The nature of business is that it is inherently risky, but that is part of the appeal for some people and can be mitigated by careful planning and by having the right type of previous experience, the right contacts and even a bit of luck.

I may very well fail.   If I do then I'll try again.

The product we will manufacture and sell is a food item that everyone (Thai and foreigners) likes, it will be sold at a price point which will make it an easy purchase for most people in Bangkok and other Thai cities.  

We intend to grow the business initially in Bangkok, then expand (possibly by franchising , which I already have experience with) nationally, and eventually across the borders into Cambodia, Laos etc.


I don't think I'm Google or Microsoft, but I see nothing wrong with copying some of their ideas for building a great company ethos.   And perhaps one day we may be like them.

Hamdi Ulukaya the founder of Chobani in the US started small and look what he achieved.   Not saying I will achieve the same level of success but I admire what he has done and how he did it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/27/business/a-windfall-for-chobani-employees-stakes-in-the-company.html

Businesses mostly all start small, some fail, some don't.    But if no-one had the guts to give it a go the world would be a very different place.
 

 

You are obviously grounded and do have some common sense. If people didn't try things, we would never advance in business or as a society. I may disagree with some of your points, but I do see you are focused and are significantly better grounded than the twits who open another beer bar/bordello and then wonder why they lose their singlets and false teeth when the business fails.

 

13 hours ago, seancbk said:

I've been talking to Thais and they tell me that there are large numbers of university educated Thais who have debt from school loans but cannot find decent jobs, so they are having to take jobs paying 10-12,000 THB a month just to survive.
I'm talking about middle class Thais in Bangkok.   

 

This is my biggest  point of contention with you. A Thai university diploma unless it is from a small number of faculties, e.g.  Mahidol public health, nursing etc. is just a piece of paper. The universities do a dismal job of  properly educating students up to the levels one sees in Hong Kong or Singapore. Students graduate with international business degrees with  an inability; to speak in a language other than Thai, to perform basic accounting functions, to  understand basic finance functions, to grasp the fundamentals of personnel management or even of organizational leadership. .

 

As an aside, if you will be using a novel or innovative approach to manufacturing, I hope you do understand that you are in the land of the rip off. Your intellectual property will be discounted  as soon as you open yours doors for business.

 

1 hour ago, seancbk said:

 

I'm not sure what if any laws exist in Thailand to discourage employee discrimination.  
I don't know when exactly it changed in Hong Kong, but in the 90's it was common the see job ads that specified the applicant needed to be Female, pretty, under 30, no more than 50 kgs.

Perhaps Thailand still allows employers to discriminate based on the applicants looks or age?

 

Technically there are laws. I do hope you will not engage in discrimination based upon race, age or gender. I appreciate that some of the locals do it, but it is  wrong and repugnant. Our organization has a policy against such practices and we will not  transact with unethical suppliers. If you have a food product that you wish to  stock the shelves of any firm that has a head office in or is subject to EU regulations (e.g. Tesco Lotus) you may be surprised by the ethical guidelines the firm shares with its suppliers, even in Thailand. the larger German, Swedish, Dutch and Danish firms make a point of following up on corporate ethical policies.

 

Good luck with your enterprise. 

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

2 hours ago, seancbk said:

 

I'm not sure what if any laws exist in Thailand to discourage employee discrimination.  

I don't know when exactly it changed in Hong Kong, but in the 90's it was common the see job ads that specified the applicant needed to be Female, pretty, under 30, no more than 50 kgs.

Perhaps Thailand still allows employers to discriminate based on the applicants looks or age?

 

When it comes to current Thai job recruitment, it's absolutely common to see some statement about age not being over some range of years, nor is it uncommon to see some preference for female vs. male or the reverse.

 

The "pretty" and body weight references, I'm not so sure about.

[teacherpaul]

On 16/11/2016 at 1:45 AM, seancbk said:

My plan is that factory staff will be mostly middle aged Thai women and possibly some guys.

The staff who will be serving  customers will be young and pretty.

The young pretties will earn more (sales bonuses).

 

All staff will benefit from things like a provident fund, regular company trips, family days, free childcare, free english lessons (mandatory for customer facing staff, optional for factory staff).   My partners and I have discussed giving equity to staff who stay with the company.   

Managerial staff will be offered equity from day one so we can attract good people.  Looking for overseas educated, young Thais (they will need to stay with us for x years before they can vest their shares).

We will provide free transport from the nearest BTS, free lunch, free drinking water.

We intend to build a company culture that people will want to work for and stay working for.   They will see that there is a career progression for everyone, no matter what position you join in, if they stay we will try to teach them new skills and let them get up the career ladder.

 

 

Sounds good. You should be able to hang on to good staff longer than most companies.

[seancbk]

On 11/17/2016 at 10:59 AM, geriatrickid said:

On 11/16/2016 at 0:41 PM, seancbk said:

Do you think smart young Thais who get jobs with Google in Bangkok do so and then leave as soon as they can?    

If you have a company that rewards the staff then I see no reason why you wouldn't be able to retain good people.  

I may not be easy but we will offer plenty to encourage good people to stay with the company.    

 

Google is a bad example. No one and I mean no one can compete with Google, not even Microsoft. No one even bothers to recruit Google employees because the pay, benefits, working conditions etc are unmatchable. I have seen  what the employees get first hand and it explains why the employees are so in love with the company and why it is difficult to even get many of them to go home. Google has created the safety and ambiance of a loving family home. You would go broke trying to recreate that atmposphere.  However, i do wish to acknowledge the positive aspects of your statement.

 

 

I've worked for 2 companies that did things to keep the staff happy and motivated.  The first was in HK and was a company I joined as an executive director prior to us listing on Nasdaq at a  US$ 750 million opening valuation.  
Their way to motivate people was to give stock options.   The second company was in Auckland, New Zealand where I was sent to manage a team of developers for an online music startup (funded out of HK).  They had a pool table, foosball table, video games, relaxation lounge, free food, free drinks and regular company paid outings.  

 

On 11/17/2016 at 10:59 AM, geriatrickid said:

Hong Kong is very different from Thailand. The definition of working class is so fluid it cannot be defined. I am aghast at the work ethic of some, yet in awe of others. What I do know is that certain industries are more likely to attract duds, e.g. hospitality and retail service. Manufacturing jobs today do require skilled labour and to be blunt there is a shortage of that in Thailand. 84% of the labour in Thailand  is classified as unskilled. The June report of the World Bank's Thailand Economic Monitor said: “The working-age population of Thailand is expected to shrink by around 11 per cent as a share of the total population between now and 2040, from just under 49 million to around 40.5 million people.” This projected decline is higher in Thailand than in any developing country in East Asia, said the bank, which recommended action on labour productivity as a result. "

 

 This is why the auto and electronic manufacturers have trained their own workforces. As an aside, HIV/HCV infection,  vehicle incidents and general accidents combined with a reduced birth rate have had an impact upon the  male 25-40 years of age segment. The loss/impairment makes matters worse.

Yes absolutely they are very different places.   When I said 'Working class Thais are not much different to working class Thais"  I was referring to non skilled labour.   A Chinese housewife coming for a job in the sex toy factory I worked in would have never molded latex cocks in her life, but after being shown how to do it would happily get to work.   The same can be said for a Thai I'm sure.  In both cases they just want to be able to make money for their families.

 

 

On 11/17/2016 at 10:59 AM, geriatrickid said:

On 11/16/2016 at 1:03 PM, seancbk said:

You obviously don't meet the types of Thais I meet.
Go along to some of the networking events where young Thais are talking about their latest app and raising 20 million baht to fund the development.
They absolutely get the concept of equity and performance based bonuses.

 

Perhaps some do, but seriously the business market is quite different than  IT klunks profeering their latest apps. You will be in manufacturing and the behaviour of some wobbly wonky IT hack has  no relationship to the chap who will be working on your shop floor or peddling your products.  I do understand your point and there are indeed intelligent and talented people in Thailand. However, it is unlikely any of them will make a beeline you unless you are super hansum and will be offering incentives of the carnal kind whilst you serenade them with the latest hits of some some odious Thai chanteur/chanteuse.

My unskilled workers only need to have the desire to work.  It won't be stressful, physical or dirty work.  They will be indoors, in a nice cool, clean environment.   I hope to have a great group of Thai women, who might not easily find work elsewhere, doing the job and enjoying chatting to each other while they work.
 

The staff who I need to have a more Western style sensibility will be recruited from the pool of smart young Thais who are looking for a chance to grow with our company.  Hopefully we will offer sufficient inducements to attract them and retain them.

 

On 11/17/2016 at 10:59 AM, geriatrickid said:

You are obviously grounded and do have some common sense. If people didn't try things, we would never advance in business or as a society. I may disagree with some of your points, but I do see you are focused and are significantly better grounded than the twits who open another beer bar/bordello and then wonder why they lose their singlets and false teeth when the business fails.

 

Thank you.  

 

I've been fortunate to have had lots of different business experiences in my life, but more importantly I was taught that anyone can have their own business if they have a good idea and work hard.  The impression I get from a lot of people on this forum is that they don't believe they could succeed or even they don't believe they deserve to succeed.   Then again my family had successful businesses and many people I grew up with have very successful businesses.   

 

On 11/17/2016 at 10:59 AM, geriatrickid said:

On 11/16/2016 at 9:23 PM, seancbk said:

I've been talking to Thais and they tell me that there are large numbers of university educated Thais who have debt from school loans but cannot find decent jobs, so they are having to take jobs paying 10-12,000 THB a month just to survive.
I'm talking about middle class Thais in Bangkok.   

 

This is my biggest  point of contention with you. A Thai university diploma unless it is from a small number of faculties, e.g.  Mahidol public health, nursing etc. is just a piece of paper. The universities do a dismal job of  properly educating students up to the levels one sees in Hong Kong or Singapore. Students graduate with international business degrees with  an inability; to speak in a language other than Thai, to perform basic accounting functions, to  understand basic finance functions, to grasp the fundamentals of personnel management or even of organizational leadership. .

 

As an aside, if you will be using a novel or innovative approach to manufacturing, I hope you do understand that you are in the land of the rip off. Your intellectual property will be discounted  as soon as you open yours doors for business.

 

My staff will consist of :-

 

Non skilled workers - most likely Thai women in the 40-50 age bracket 

Supervisory staff - most likely a Thai woman with some food experience, perhaps worked in a hotel kitchen, age mid 40's to early 50's

 

Outside staff actually selling to customers will preferably be younger, male or female, with some English language ability (we will give them functional English lessons so they can learn to talk to customers about the product).
Other languages might be useful if we sell in areas for example where there are more Japanese, or more Mainland Chinese.

Sales staff trying to get cafe's and other suitable venues to stock our product can be any age, male or female and will not need to speak English as their target will be Thai business owners.

Administrative office staff will be any age, male or female with at least some spoken English ability (and of course reading/writing).   

I will have a personal assistant who will be fluent in English, overseas educated Thai or possibly mixed Thai / European.

There is nothing new or novel about the product or the manufacturing method.   We will most likely get copied although it will take a fair amount of time and investment for anyone to do so, and that may stop at least some of the copycats.   Most people give up if something is too hard.  

I also plan to expand aggressively to build brand awareness and have a marketing plan to support our brand building.   

 

For example it costs 600,000 THB per month to skin the outside of a BTS train, which I imagine will make any small time competitors think twice before trying to launch a similar product.

 

On 11/17/2016 at 10:59 AM, geriatrickid said:

On 11/17/2016 at 8:51 AM, seancbk said:

 

I'm not sure what if any laws exist in Thailand to discourage employee discrimination.  
I don't know when exactly it changed in Hong Kong, but in the 90's it was common the see job ads that specified the applicant needed to be Female, pretty, under 30, no more than 50 kgs.

Perhaps Thailand still allows employers to discriminate based on the applicants looks or age?

 

Technically there are laws. I do hope you will not engage in discrimination based upon race, age or gender. I appreciate that some of the locals do it, but it is  wrong and repugnant. Our organization has a policy against such practices and we will not  transact with unethical suppliers. If you have a food product that you wish to  stock the shelves of any firm that has a head office in or is subject to EU regulations (e.g. Tesco Lotus) you may be surprised by the ethical guidelines the firm shares with its suppliers, even in Thailand. the larger German, Swedish, Dutch and Danish firms make a point of following up on corporate ethical policies.

CSR (Corporate Social Responsibility) is a big component of my long term business plan.    That will include donating product to orphanages, providing financial assistance to farmers who we buy from and anything else we can do to give back to Thailand. 

If there was someone in a wheelchair (for example) no reason they couldn't work for us.

I have a friend who manufactures a food item in Thailand that is exported to Europe so I've got plenty of first hand advice on the things needed there.   Export to Europe is not really on my radar yet however.
 

 

On 11/17/2016 at 10:59 AM, geriatrickid said:

Good luck with your enterprise. 

Thank you for all your comments.

This is the largest enterprise I have started from scratch so any time someone questions how I'm thinking of doing something it makes me look at it and check my knowledge and plans make sense.   

There are many challenges that we will have to overcome but I like a challenge and seeing my plan go from just an idea, to a few test products and now to the stage I'm at has been mostly fun ;-)

 

[bberrythailand]

So if a 35+ woman is smart enough to understand and accept that she cannot get more salary than a 25+ for a job that she does not know and for which she has no experience, would she be a better choice ?

 

In my opinion yes.

 

Also, don't you think that choosing a woman who is too old to have kids and leave her job for this reason is a good idea ? People with kids always have problems and too many reason to take day off, which I do not appreciate.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[autoc]

Women and their kids really are a pain, I would only employ guys if it as possible...

[amjamj]

On 11/18/2016 at 6:44 PM, bberrythailand said:

So if a 35+ woman is smart enough to understand and accept that she cannot get more salary than a 25+ for a job that she does not know and for which she has no experience, would she be a better choice ?

 

In my opinion yes.

 

Also, don't you think that choosing a woman who is too old to have kids and leave her job for this reason is a good idea ? People with kids always have problems and too many reason to take day off, which I do not appreciate.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi, I am not sure that you will find an old Thai woman who can accept that she knows nothing.

In this country the older they are the smarter they think they are ! Just look at the English teachers who still cannot speak English at 60 years old and think that they are the king of their school !

 

 

 

 

 

[Ulysses G.]

I have had both working for me and some women were young in the beginning and worked until their 40s. I had no problem with either one. However, of course the longer they worked, the better they were at their jobs.

I will say that I tried to avoid men as much possible, although I did hire one who was married to one of the girls and he was excellent. My first employee was a young pretty boy and he was very unreliable That put me off hiring men.

Edited December 21, 2016 by Ulysses G.

[amjamj]

8 hours ago, Ulysses G. said:

I have had both working for me and some women were young in the beginning and worked until their 40s. I had no problem with either one. However, of course the longer they worked, the better they were at their jobs.

I will say that I tried to avoid men as much possible, although I did hire one who was married to one of the girls and he was excellent. My first employee was a young pretty boy and he was very unreliable That put me off hiring men.

 

 

I also do nit hire men except to handle heavy parcels, etc...

 

Women are more reliable and better for everything in this country, just look at how mothers teach their stupid boys and you understand why girls are better.

 

Congratulations to be able to keep staff for so long, but I guess that most of them were not as reliable as the ones who worked until their 40s ?

 

 

 

 

[Ulysses G.]

I really never had a problem with reliability - other than the young boy that I mentioned. All my staff were reliable. However, I let the girls bring in their friends from the same industry and they wanted people that they could rely on too, so it all worked well.

[NickJ]

It NEVER, ceased to amaze me when I would interview a young Thai girl for a position in my company. They would present these great resumes.  Outline there proud work history. Filled with experience.  Seven eight or more jobs. Two months here maybe six here and only three or so weeks here. I would feign being impressed. Then ask them how long they would be working here with us.

Older women. Married. Happy to have a job.  Worked out best...... Still going through that now with the gf's place.

[autanic]

The younger the better. !!

[thierryviteau]

I will never hire young staff anymore, they are useless and brainless.

 

 

 

 

[joeyg]

I'm overwhelmed with so much expert advice. 

[Thongkorn]

Unfortunately at 33  a female in Thailand is classed as old,

[abab]

14 hours ago, Thongkorn said:

Unfortunately at 33  a female in Thailand is classed as old,

 

 

And that's all she deserves ! hahahaha