Trump faces hurdles to reinstating waterboarding

[Morch]

10 minutes ago, ClutchClark said:

 

This is where I would disagree.

 

I would far prefer to be waterboarded than have bones broken, teeth pulled, fingers cut off, etc..

 

 

 

Would you like fries with that?

[ClutchClark]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

Would you like fries with that?

 

I am sorry but I don't know what that means.

 

Have a good one.

[Ulysses G.]

1 hour ago, ilostmypassword said:

In fact, our special forces can't prepare for waterboarding. If you had bothered to read the whole thread, you would find that nobody can prepare for it.

 

Baloney. There is a reason that the special forces have their soldiers experience it: stress inoculation.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ben-sherwood/waterboarding-101-inside_b_190318.html

Edited November 23, 2016 by Ulysses G.

[Grouse]

10 minutes ago, Ulysses G. said:

 

 I have nothing against your father, but it is a known fact that the Allies tortured prisoners during WW2 and there is plenty of evidence besides the Daily Mail.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Cage

 

https://historyimages.blogspot.com/2012/01/shocking-american-torture-of-german.html

 

 

11 minutes ago, Ulysses G. said:

 

 I have nothing against your father, but it is a known fact that the Allies tortured prisoners during WW2 and there is plenty of evidence besides the Daily Mail.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Cage

 

https://historyimages.blogspot.com/2012/01/shocking-american-torture-of-german.html

 

 

I can only speak for the UK

 

I can categorically assure you there was no state sanctioned torture.

 

What troops on the frontline do, one can only imagine.

[Basil B]

They had something similar in medieval England...

 

Maybe they should try it out on Donald to see if he is a fit and proper person to be President of the USA.

[ilostmypassword]

7 minutes ago, Ulysses G. said:

 

Baloney. There is a reason that the special forces have their soldiers experience it: stress inoculation.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ben-sherwood/waterboarding-101-inside_b_190318.html

First of all, I've got to love the fact that you routinely and automatically reject articles just because they come from the Huffington Post, which you've characterized as being the leftwing counterpart to Breitbart.com. Hypocrite much? I guess that was the only article you could find in support of stress inoculation  It's a theory.  In fact here's an article by someone who underwent stress inoculation. Oh, but I've got to warn you. It comes from Slate, a leftwing publication and therefore untrustworthy.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2009/01/cancel_waterboarding_101.html

[ilostmypassword]

35 minutes ago, Ulysses G. said:

 

 I have nothing against your father, but it is a known fact that the Allies tortured prisoners during WW2 and there is plenty of evidence besides the Daily Mail.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Cage

 

https://historyimages.blogspot.com/2012/01/shocking-american-torture-of-german.html

 

I have no doubt that torture occurred. But is it a good way to get reliable information?  Are there better ways? The experts seem to think so. But some people just love to imagine that being hardheaded means using brutality. In fact, some of these people use an unconfirmable quote allegedly from George Orwell as a kind of badge for this attitude.

[Grouse]

8 minutes ago, Basil B said:

They had something similar in medieval England...

 

Maybe they should try it out on Donald to see if he is a fit and proper person to be President of the USA.

 

As you know, if they drowned, they were innocent

 

If they didn't drown, they were guilty and were burnt at the stake

 

We British have a sense of humour ! ?

[Morch]

11 minutes ago, Basil B said:

They had something similar in medieval England...

 

Maybe they should try it out on Donald to see if he is a fit and proper person to be President of the USA.

 

 

[ClutchClark]

38 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

I have no doubt that torture occurred. But is it a good way to get reliable information?  Are there better ways? The experts seem to think so. But some people just love to imagine that being hardheaded means using brutality. In fact, some of these people use an unconfirmable quote allegedly from George Orwell as a kind of badge for this attitude.

 

You lost me. What is the Orwell quote? 

 

EDIT: Is this about Room 101?

 

 

Edited November 23, 2016 by ClutchClark

[ilostmypassword]

9 minutes ago, ClutchClark said:

 

You lost me. What is the Orwell quote? 

 

EDIT: Is this about Room 101?

 

 

The alleged Orwell quote is this: "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf"

[Andaman Al]

1 hour ago, Ulysses G. said:

 

Baloney. There is a reason that the special forces have their soldiers experience it: stress inoculation.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ben-sherwood/waterboarding-101-inside_b_190318.html

 

You are completely wrong. Let me explain (What I am about to describe is not any form of classified information.) Stress inoculation is a fairy tale. Training on this stuff is given to 'certain' military 'at risk' personnel so that you can make choices before any torture begins.

 

In my previous life not so long ago I was, (apart from my main role), a fully trained military interrogator. Before you all hate me, I was not involved in the real time interrogation of actual prisoners (as we didn't have many at that time) but did do extensive training with Aircrew and SF for resistance to Interrogation training. It does not matter what you do to prepare yourself for water boarding, the fact is that your bodies internal survival system takes over and you have no control over that. Your body believes with every sinew that you are about to drown and you will do ANYTHING to stop it.

 

The other thing is that you all think you are being led into a room to be waterboarded in a state of full mental acuity and that you know its just pretend. Wrong again. You would be subject to a minimum of 12-24 hrs of white noise, hands behind your back more often than not in a stress position. The noise is so loud you literally cannot hear yourself think. By the time you are taken to be waterboarded you could not put up a fight against someone armed with a feather duster. Pulling finger nails out and putting electrodes on your testicles is considered the 'fun' way to torture eh! but it is no good. If you want to break someone down completely then it must be done inside the head.

 

The MOST powerful way to get someone to sing like a canary and tell you the truth is by sleep deprivation. Most on here would sing like a bird after 48-60 hrs total sleep deprivation. For the incredibly fit then 72 hrs would be the limit. The pain and mental anguish is unbearable but you are just missing sleep. You are not allowed 1 minute, iced water will see to that. AT around that point the hallucinations you experience (i have experienced) are I am told as powerful as those on an LSD trip (which I have not experienced ). You will answer any question asked of you and you WILL tell the truth, just for the promise of 10 mins sleep. The Chinese up until 100 years ago or so used to use sleep deprivation as a form of capital punishment for the worst criminal offenders as it imposed the maximum suffering on an individual - more so than the death of a 1000 cuts. The internal mental and physical pain needs to be experienced to be believed. I have never met ANYBODY that can resist this form of 'interrogation'. Of course once you crash out and get 8 hrs sleep your body will recover with no marks and no lasting mental or physical damage.

 

The problem in a fast moving intelligence environment is that generally these days once information is more than 24 hrs old it is out of date and useless, and it is this that led to the misconception that waterboarding will get quicker results. Yes it does get quick results but the validity and credibility of the information you get is completely unreliable. Any of you on here would break within minutes and admit that you take it up the rear from your Grandfather every night if it makes them stop. Not so with sleep deprivation, the truth comes out, you have no ability to resist or concoct stories.

 

Instilling fear leads to a prisoner saying anything you desire, so if your questioning is even slightly biased or incorrect then you get the answers you want. Breaking down the ability of the mind to resist through sleep deprivation always gets results and it is non invasive, does not damage physically (unless you do it like the Chinese did where it can take you 13-25 days to die in extreme suffering). It takes a short time, but for prisoners in Gitmo where you are after long term intelligence info there is NO need for waterboarding. If you catch someone who has just planted a bomb and is running away and you want to know where the bomb is then you do not even have time for water boarding!

 

That's all, take it or leave it. Physical torture belongs in the hands of those who enjoyed doing it in the 15th century, it has no place in modern society and to inflict it on an innocent 'just in case' removes your right to belong to a human civilised society.

 

Here is a man we knew well( RIP), and he was fully prepared and fully aware he was in safe hands. His ability to 'not last' is not a weakness it shows the powerful effects of your survival instincts (by the way if you just try and hold your breath then when you do eventually breath the drowning effect will be far more explosive). Christopher Hitchins was an advocate for water boarding....until.................

 

 

And here is a tough guy an MMA fighter/Trainer. Please watch.

 

 

 

Edited November 23, 2016 by Andaman Al

[ClutchClark]

4 hours ago, ilostmypassword said:

Actually, and I'm not kidding you, he is ignoring me, too. Who does he think he is, my parent?

 

Lol...that makes me feel better.

 

He is a strange man but I can't help but enjoy the guys presence here on TVF.

 

[Ulysses G.]

1 hour ago, ilostmypassword said:

First of all, I've got to love the fact that you routinely and automatically reject articles just because they come from the Huffington Post, which you've characterized as being the leftwing counterpart to Breitbart.com. Hypocrite much? I guess that was the only article you could find in support of stress inoculation

 

 

Wrong as usual. I used the Huffington Post article, because they seem to speak to you types, like your article from Slate. There are PLENTY of articles from other sources.

 

http://www.newsweek.com/ultimate-stress-test-special-forces-training-82749

Edited November 23, 2016 by Ulysses G.

[thaibeachlovers]

6 hours ago, ilostmypassword said:

Donald Trump disagrees with you.

"On the question of whether the U.S. military should use waterboarding and other forms of torture to break suspected terrorists — a position he advocated frequently during the campaign to great applause — Trump bluntly stated that he had changed his mind after talking with James N. Mattis, the retired Marine Corps general, who headed the United States Central Command.

Trump said Mattis told him of torture: “I’ve never found it to be useful.”...

He quoted Mattis as saying, “Give me a pack of cigarettes and a couple of beers and I always do better” than anyone using torture. "

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/22/opinion/at-lunch-donald-trump-gives-critics-hope.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-right-region&region=opinion-c-col-right-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-right-region

 

If anyone wants to read the entire transcript of Trump's interview, here's the link. Somehow, I think his supporters would rather not.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/23/us/politics/trump-new-york-times-interview-transcript.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=b-lede-package-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

I certainly hope that you are correct- I don't have time to read it now.

I fundamentally disagree with Trump on torture, and if he has seen the light that is great. Torture has no business in a civilized country.

It was my impression that waterboarding was done more for revenge post 9 11 than to gain information

 

I think it was just confirmed on Fox that Trump has backed away from using torture, but I missed part of it. No doubt it will be repeated later if true.

[ilostmypassword]

5 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I certainly hope that you are correct- I don't have time to read it now.

I fundamentally disagree with Trump on torture, and if he has seen the light that is great. Torture has no business in a civilized country.

It was my impression that waterboarding was done more for revenge post 9 11 than to gain information

 

I think it was just confirmed on Fox that Trump has backed away from using torture, but I missed part of it. No doubt it will be repeated later if true.

I don't think Fox uses truth or falsehood as a criterion for the repeatability of a news item.

[thaibeachlovers]

15 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

I don't think Fox uses truth or falsehood as a criterion for the repeatability of a news item.

Oh, they repeat everything. Saves on the cost of providing new content 24/7.

[ClutchClark]

19 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Oh, they repeat everything. Saves on the cost of providing new content 24/7.

 

True but CNN is the same. 

I think they all do it. 

 

I prefered the days when you tuned into the news for an hour in the evening. 

Local, National, World all wrapped up in an hour which left you 23 hours to actually just live life. 

 

This 24/7 news delivering events to your doorstep that you have zero control over does nothing but get everybody stressed out.

 

 

[Credo]

Personally, I agree with Mattis, beer and cigarettes are better.   After about 3 beers, I can't keep my mouth shut.   

 

 

[ilostmypassword]

6 hours ago, Ulysses G. said:

 

 

Wrong as usual. I used the Huffington Post article, because they seem to speak to you types, like your article from Slate. There are PLENTY of articles from other sources.

 

http://www.newsweek.com/ultimate-stress-test-special-forces-training-82749

Did you actually read the article you cited from Newsweek? It says nothing at all about the effect of stress inoculation. It's just about how Special Forces people are more inherently resistant to stress.

 

[Morch]

8 hours ago, Grouse said:

 

As you know, if they drowned, they were innocent

 

If they didn't drown, they were guilty and were burnt at the stake

 

We British have a sense of humour ! ?

 

Trust, but verify?

[Morch]

6 hours ago, ClutchClark said:

 

True but CNN is the same. 

I think they all do it. 

 

I prefered the days when you tuned into the news for an hour in the evening. 

Local, National, World all wrapped up in an hour which left you 23 hours to actually just live life. 

 

This 24/7 news delivering events to your doorstep that you have zero control over does nothing but get everybody stressed out.

 

 

 

Guess it's an open question whether public opinion is easier to control with limited access to information or with the overdose of the same.

[Morch]

4 hours ago, Credo said:

Personally, I agree with Mattis, beer and cigarettes are better.   After about 3 beers, I can't keep my mouth shut.   

 

 

 

Kinda makes the cigarettes pointless, then.

[Credo]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

 

Kinda makes the cigarettes pointless, then.

Oh no.   The torture part is having them there and then not letting me have one.   The alcohol is just the lubricant that gets the mouth running.   

 

Sort of carrot-and-stick approach.

 

Why don't they use Sodium Pentathol?   It's not admissible in court, but then I doubt waterboarding is either.   

[Ulysses G.]

4 hours ago, ilostmypassword said:

Did you actually read the article you cited from Newsweek? It says nothing at all about the effect of stress inoculation. It's just about how Special Forces people are more inherently resistant to stress.

 

 

Because of their TRAINING. That is the reason that they do it - to be more resistant to the real thing.

 

http://www.newsmax.com/t/newsmax/article/720570?section=Newsmax-Tv&keywords=james-woolsey-waterboarding-train-navy&year=2016&month=03&date=23&id=720570&aliaspath=%2FManage%2FArticles%2FTemplate-Main&oref=com.google.android.googlequicksearchbox

[geriatrickid]

21 hours ago, OMGImInPattaya said:

When it's necessary, like after the next mass-terrorism attack, it will be right back on the table, no matter what McCain has to say.

 

What part about torture not being effective or moral or legally acceptable do you not  understand?

Do you understand what waterboarding is or what forced rectal injections are? The people who would do these things are violent psychopaths, not patriots.  Christians do not torture.  The Trump  regime claims to be Christian This makes them liars.

 

Perhaps the antichrist  with his statuary and garish decorations is  upon us now. All I know is that Trump is not Christian. I believe he is in league with Satan.

[thaibeachlovers]

4 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Guess it's an open question whether public opinion is easier to control with limited access to information or with the overdose of the same.

Thanks. I never thought of the news like that before. Obviously our lords and masters have decided reality shows are insufficient to keep the sheeple sedated and are making the news itself into a reality show.

[thaibeachlovers]

19 minutes ago, geriatrickid said:

 

What part about torture not being effective or moral or legally acceptable do you not  understand?

Do you understand what waterboarding is or what forced rectal injections are? The people who would do these things are violent psychopaths, not patriots.  Christians do not torture.  The Trump  regime claims to be Christian This makes them liars.

 

Perhaps the antichrist  with his statuary and garish decorations is  upon us now. All I know is that Trump is not Christian. I believe he is in league with Satan.

What part about torture not being effective or moral or legally acceptable do you not  understand?

Do you understand what waterboarding is or what forced rectal injections are? The people who would do these things are violent psychopaths, not patriots.

I "like" that part.

I do not "like" the rest.

[thaibeachlovers]

2 hours ago, Credo said:

Oh no.   The torture part is having them there and then not letting me have one.   The alcohol is just the lubricant that gets the mouth running.   

 

Sort of carrot-and-stick approach.

 

Why don't they use Sodium Pentathol?   It's not admissible in court, but then I doubt waterboarding is either.   

They don't use non violent methods because they are sadistic monsters that enjoy hurting people.

[Grouse]

9 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

 

What part about torture not being effective or moral or legally acceptable do you not  understand?

Do you understand what waterboarding is or what forced rectal injections are? The people who would do these things are violent psychopaths, not patriots.  Christians do not torture.  The Trump  regime claims to be Christian This makes them liars.

 

Perhaps the antichrist  with his statuary and garish decorations is  upon us now. All I know is that Trump is not Christian. I believe he is in league with Satan.

 

I would not bring religion of any flavour into a discussion about torture!