Cuba's Fidel Castro, who defied US for 50 years, has died

[MalandLee]

14 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

It's pretty clear to me that there is an American/ rest of the world divide here.

I get the impression most Americans think it great that he is dead, but many elsewhere in the world  respect him as a great liberator from oppression.

Perhaps if the US hadn't embargoed Cuba and tried to assassinate him so many times, he would have become more amenable to relaxing the regime over time.

I am not an American (USA), however, I have zero respect for someone who wants to impose their version of how I should live my life.

 

I'm an Aussie, and all my country-people have their own view, I respect their right to have their views, but disagree with many.

 

Most American I have met have been fantastic people, regardless of race... I do not see a "divide"...

[craigt3365]

3 hours ago, AlexRRR said:

 

Ive only just returned from Cuba 2 weeks in the country.....didnt look poor to me when i compare it to Cambodia or India....

 

People in general seemed happy, plenty of food to have as long as you didn't mind a lack of choice, most would be seasonal and certainly tasty.

 

Havana could be one of the best cities in the world once the $ start rushing in.

 

Politicly Castro was good for the country in the beginning, the revolution had run its course by the 70's, you only have to look around the world to see what is working and what is not, the Americans are broke, lot of other democratic governments on or close to there knees too....

Definitely not one of the poorest, but at an average salary of $30 a month, far from wealthy.  Comparing Cuba to Cambodia or India is probably perfect!

 

The people are wonderful.  Even if they have nothing, they are happy.  Beautiful people.  Havana is a fantastic city.  Falling apart, but that's part of the charm.  Kinda like Tbilisi, Georgia.

 

I don't think America is broke.  In debt yes, but doing OK otherwise.  Not fantastic, but OK compared to other countries around the world.

[craigt3365]

3 hours ago, MalandLee said:

I am not an American (USA), however, I have zero respect for someone who wants to impose their version of how I should live my life.

 

I'm an Aussie, and all my country-people have their own view, I respect their right to have their views, but disagree with many.

 

Most American I have met have been fantastic people, regardless of race... I do not see a "divide"...

The average American barely knows about Cuba.  It's a blip on their radar.  The government, Cuban exiles and those who lost investments there after the revolution are a different story.  And for valid reasons.

 

There are many Cuban Americans.  They are part of the society.  The US is a melting pot.  Which is a great thing.

[thaibeachlovers]

On ‎30‎.‎11‎.‎2016 at 1:12 PM, MalandLee said:

I am not an American (USA), however, I have zero respect for someone who wants to impose their version of how I should live my life.

 

I'm an Aussie, and all my country-people have their own view, I respect their right to have their views, but disagree with many.

 

Most American I have met have been fantastic people, regardless of race... I do not see a "divide"...

I think most Americans choose to ignore that the oppression he liberated Cuba from was American, through their puppet dictator, and that they spent many years trying to assassinate a sovereign nation's leader, and reimpose their oppression.

 

Most Americans I have met were wonderful people ( with a notable exception ), but that opinion does not stretch to the American government, which has done terrible things to innocent peoples in South and Central America, never mind what it has done and is doing to the Native Americans.

[thaibeachlovers]

20 hours ago, craigt3365 said:

Definitely not one of the poorest, but at an average salary of $30 a month, far from wealthy.  Comparing Cuba to Cambodia or India is probably perfect!

 

The people are wonderful.  Even if they have nothing, they are happy.  Beautiful people.  Havana is a fantastic city.  Falling apart, but that's part of the charm.  Kinda like Tbilisi, Georgia.

 

I don't think America is broke.  In debt yes, but doing OK otherwise.  Not fantastic, but OK compared to other countries around the world.

That's the nub of it. Poor but fed and housed people in a reasonably equal society generally are happier than people in a capitalist society where a few people live high, high, high lives and everyone else is left with the dregs.

[thaibeachlovers]

On ‎30‎.‎11‎.‎2016 at 1:12 PM, MalandLee said:

I am not an American (USA), however, I have zero respect for someone who wants to impose their version of how I should live my life.

 

I'm an Aussie, and all my country-people have their own view, I respect their right to have their views, but disagree with many.

 

Most American I have met have been fantastic people, regardless of race... I do not see a "divide"...

LOL. The divide I refer to is on TVF. Most people not from the US admire him while most if not all the Americans on here are happy he is dead.

[craigt3365]

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

That's the nub of it. Poor but fed and housed people in a reasonably equal society generally are happier than people in a capitalist society where a few people live high, high, high lives and everyone else is left with the dregs.

Actually, not fed very well.  Housing is bottom of the barrel.  I'd never trade my life in the US for a life there.  They'd gladly trade their life in Cuba for one in the US. 

[craigt3365]

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I think most Americans choose to ignore that the oppression he liberated Cuba from was American, through their puppet dictator, and that they spent many years trying to assassinate a sovereign nation's leader, and reimpose their oppression.

 

Most Americans I have met were wonderful people ( with a notable exception ), but that opinion does not stretch to the American government, which has done terrible things to innocent peoples in South and Central America, never mind what it has done and is doing to the Native Americans.

With respect, the problems Cuba had were brought on by their leaders.  If they let the US dictate to them, it was because they were profiting from it. Not being oppressed.  But yes, assassination attempts against Castro were many!  And partially for good reasons:

 

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/fidel-castro-once-asked-leader-235920011.html?.tsrc=daily_mail

Quote

Fidel Castro once asked the leader of the Soviet Union to annihilate the US with nuclear weapons

 

I think your assessment of the US government can be made for many countries around the world.  Actually, the problems for the Native Americans were started by Europeans.  My father was born on a res.  I still have family living there.  Can't blame all the worlds problems on the US, though many try.

[Shawn0000]

8 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

Actually, not fed very well.  Housing is bottom of the barrel.  I'd never trade my life in the US for a life there.  They'd gladly trade their life in Cuba for one in the US. 

 

You spectacularly missed the point.  The point not being about you specifically but Americans as a whole, many of whom have worse lives than those in Cuba which is a very equal society whereas America is the most unequal in the developed world, if it is even fair to describe a country with situations found in the US as being fully developed, to many it would be seen as an insult to development.

[craigt3365]

4 minutes ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

You spectacularly missed the point.  The point not being about you specifically but Americans as a whole, many of whom have worse lives than those in Cuba which is a very equal society whereas America is the most unequal in the developed world, if it is even fair to describe a country with situations found in the US as being fully developed, to many it would be seen as an insult to development.

I'm from the US!  I know few Americans who'd rather live in Cuba!  Have you ever been there?  It's basically a slum.  No way their lives are better than most Americans.  Some yes, but most, no way.

[Shawn0000]

11 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

I'm from the US!  I know few Americans who'd rather live in Cuba!  Have you ever been there?  It's basically a slum.  No way their lives are better than most Americans.  Some yes, but most, no way.

 

Who said most?  I said many, and there are many Americans living in basically slums, right?

[rijb]

1 hour ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

Who said most?  I said many, and there are many Americans living in basically slums, right?

 

What's your experience with American slums?  What's your experience with Cuban slums?  What's your experience with any slum?

[gemini81]

8 minutes ago, rijb said:

 

What's your experience with American slums?  What's your experience with Cuban slums?  What's your experience with any slum?

Question is WHY he isn't answering: US blockade and sanctions on trade, and after soviet union divided, they lost 85% of trade. After Batista corruption, US decided they didn't like not getting a slice of the pie. The sanctions starved an island indeed, that was only trying to be sovereign and not have a western puppet regime installed.

[Shawn0000]

17 minutes ago, rijb said:

 

What's your experience with American slums?  What's your experience with Cuban slums?  What's your experience with any slum?

 

You are actually looking for anecdotal evidence?  Really?

 

Are you denying that many Americans live in third world conditions without access to either the education or healthcare standards that is available to every Cuban?  4.5% of American deaths are directly attributed to poverty, about 4000 per year through malnutrition, 45,000 of treatable diseases through lack of access to healthcare, 21% of adults read at 5th grade level and 32 million cannot read at all.  All Cubans can read, 100% of them, all of them have access to health care, one of the lowest ratios of doctors to patients in the world.  Hardly anyone is wealthy, the people in middle class positions live on less per month than the value of American food stamps, but no one suffers the problems that some Americans have to suffer.

[rijb]

5 minutes ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

You are actually looking for anecdotal evidence?  Really?

 

Are you denying that many Americans live in third world conditions without access to either the education or healthcare standards that is available to every Cuban?  4.5% of American deaths are directly attributed to poverty, about 4000 per year through malnutrition, 45,000 of treatable diseases through lack of access to healthcare, 21% of adults read at 5th grade level and 32 million cannot read at all.  All Cubans can read, 100% of them, all of them have access to health care, one of the lowest ratios of doctors to patients in the world.  Hardly anyone is wealthy, the people in middle class positions live on less per month than the value of American food stamps, but no one suffers the problems that some Americans have to suffer.

 

I'm trying to understand your point.

 

Cuba has 11.5 million people vs. the USA with 319 million people.  

 

Are you in love with Cuba? Or do you just have a hard-on for the U.S.?

[Shawn0000]

22 minutes ago, rijb said:

 

I'm trying to understand your point.

 

Cuba has 11.5 million people vs. the USA with 319 million people.  

 

Are you in love with Cuba? Or do you just have a hard-on for the U.S.?

 

I have no idea what you have posted the populations for, please explain.

 

The point is that many people in America live in worse conditions than people in Cuba live in, the same point that started the conversation and led Craigt3365 to start comparing his own life, and those of people he knows in America, to the average Cubans life, that is what I was countering with some reality, as if he had of known some poor Americans he could not have disagreed that for many Americans life would be better in some ways with some Cuban socialism in their lives.

[rijb]

10 minutes ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

I have no idea what you have posted the populations for, please explain.

 

The point is that many people in America live in worse conditions than people in Cuba live in, the same point that started the conversation and led Craigt3365 to start comparing his own life, and those of people he knows in America, to the average Cubans life, that is what I was countering with some reality, as if he had of known some poor Americans he could not have disagreed that for many Americans life would be better in some ways with some Cuban socialism in their lives.

 

My point is you should be comparing Cuba to Ohio.  Ohio has 11.6 million people.  Where are the slums in Ohio?  Do you think people in Ohio would like to move to Cuba?  Do you think people in Cuba would like to move to Ohio?

[Credo]

<snip - off topic post removed from view>

The difference is that if they were in the US, they could move anywhere they want.   There is limited freedom of movement in Cuba.   

 

The communist countries were a massive economic failure -- Vietnam, Cuba, China, Russia and North Korea.   Cuba could trade with all of them, as well as many of the South American and Latin American countries.   

 

Unless you are saying that the US is so GREAT that it, and it alone, is responsible for the economic failure of these regimes.   

[stevenl]

Actually, not fed very well.  Housing is bottom of the barrel.  I'd never trade my life in the US for a life there.  They'd gladly trade their life in Cuba for one in the US. 

That's very good underlining of thaibeachlover's argument about the divide in perception between those from the US and from elsewhere.

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[craigt3365]

10 hours ago, gemini81 said:

Question is WHY he isn't answering: US blockade and sanctions on trade, and after soviet union divided, they lost 85% of trade. After Batista corruption, US decided they didn't like not getting a slice of the pie. The sanctions starved an island indeed, that was only trying to be sovereign and not have a western puppet regime installed.

Perhaps best to read up on why the US instituted sanctions.  Guaranteed it wasn't because they weren't getting a "piece of the pie". LOL 

[craigt3365]

9 hours ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

I have no idea what you have posted the populations for, please explain.

 

The point is that many people in America live in worse conditions than people in Cuba live in, the same point that started the conversation and led Craigt3365 to start comparing his own life, and those of people he knows in America, to the average Cubans life, that is what I was countering with some reality, as if he had of known some poor Americans he could not have disagreed that for many Americans life would be better in some ways with some Cuban socialism in their lives.

I lived in Pahrump, Nevada.  An extremely poor community.  Crack is a huge problem, with houses blowing up from time to time.  A trip to Walmart was...interesting to say the least.  I guarantee not one of the "poor" people I knew would move to Cuba.  I'm guessing you've never been to Cuba?  Seen where the "middle" class lives?  If you have, you'd change your tune.  They live in poverty with little support from the government.  A ration card, which I've seen, that doesn't provide the basic necessities of life.

 

Yes, some Americans live in poverty.  In slums, terrible housing, etc.  I don't think even these individuals would want to live in Cuba.  Having some socialism in the US is another topic.

[craigt3365]

14 minutes ago, stevenl said:

That's very good underlining of thaibeachlover's argument about the divide in perception between those from the US and from elsewhere.

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I think it underlines the divide between those who don't like the US and those who do.  And perhaps for those who've never been to Cuba, just know what they read from the press, for better or worse.

[stevenl]

I think it underlines the divide between those who don't like the US and those who do.  And perhaps for those who've never been to Cuba, just know what they read from the press, for better or worse.

Sorry, total nonsense. This has nothing at all to do with a dislike or not of the US.

I have been to many parts of the US and to Cuba, and I think in general Cubans are happier. That most from the US would not like to change says a lot about mentality and perception.

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[craigt3365]

9 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Sorry, total nonsense. This has nothing at all to do with a dislike or not of the US.

I have been to many parts of the US and to Cuba, and I think in general Cubans are happier. That most from the US would not like to change says a lot about mentality and perception.

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I was referring to the posters here who do tend to bash the US.  As for Americans, Cuba is barely a blip on their radar.  For most.  The reason most from the US wouldn't want to change is because of the lifestyle.  Sorry, but who'd want to live in a place where you need permission just to travel to another city?  Can't buy basic food stuffs.  Can't own a new car.  Can't leave the country. Lousy housing.  Etc, etc, etc.  Reports say the medical system is great, which is true for preventative stuff.  For serious stuff, it's a big problem.

 

I remember walking down the street with my friends and they'd just disappear.  Why? They'd see a cop or an undercover cop.  If seen with me, they'd be arrested.  Who wants to live like that?  It has nothing to do with mentality and perception. 

[stevenl]

I was referring to the posters here who do tend to bash the US.  As for Americans, Cuba is barely a blip on their radar.  For most.  The reason most from the US wouldn't want to change is because of the lifestyle.  Sorry, but who'd want to live in a place where you need permission just to travel to another city?  Can't buy basic food stuffs.  Can't own a new car.  Can't leave the country. Lousy housing.  Etc, etc, etc.  Reports say the medical system is great, which is true for preventative stuff.  For serious stuff, it's a big problem.
 
I remember walking down the street with my friends and they'd just disappear.  Why? They'd see a cop or an undercover cop.  If seen with me, they'd be arrested.  Who wants to live like that?  It has nothing to do with mentality and perception. 

No, you were not, you were answering my post.

A blip for many or not, this thread is about Cuba.

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[spidermike007]

I had the good fortune of visiting Cuba many times, while "LA chcaracha grande" was still in power. I befriended many in Cuba. Amazing place. Extraordinary people. Great culture. But, all had the same thing to say about Fidel.

 

They had a great PR machine, and it would crank out alot of hyperbole about their educational and healthcare system being the best in the world. And you would then have numskulls like Michael Moore pick up on that, and run with it, to create utter disinformation campaigns. Yes, they did produce the greatest number of doctors per capita. But, most would have to leave the country to make a living, as they could not live very well on the $40 a month government salary. I met civil engineers, who had trained in Russia, and specialized in suspension bridges, who made $38 a month, and moonlighted as tour guides, to feed their families. All the while Castro was living in his gilded mansion, feasting on lobster tail, and socking away billions. For some of us, we were able to see for ourselves, and we saw that the dissemination was just that. When I would meet locals, they would nearly all say the same thing. Fidel was universally despised, and so was the regime. All of that was said in hushed tones, for fear of being discovered, and sent to one of his concentration camps, or marched before a firing squad. I would stop to chat with a local, and within minutes he would get picked up by the police. I would later find out he was held for days, under suspicion of offering either prostitution services or currency exchange. The government hated for the people to engage in exchange, as it gave them power and freedom. It was sickening. I stopped visiting, around 2008, as I got so disgusted with the government and the low quality of life the people had to endure under the despotic regime of the Castro brothers. They are absolute vermin, on every level. I was told by reputable sources that both brothers had fortunes into the tens of billions of dollars, and many of the generals were worth billions. Total hypocrisy. Castro lost his ideals, and sight of the bigger picture within 30 days of assuming power. It was all about the money, and the power, and the totalitarian rule. It was not about the people.

 

[craigt3365]

16 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

I had the good fortune of visiting Cuba many times, while "LA chcaracha grande" was still in power. I befriended many in Cuba. Amazing place. Extraordinary people. Great culture. But, all had the same thing to say about Fidel.

 

They had a great PR machine, and it would crank out alot of hyperbole about their educational and healthcare system being the best in the world. And you would then have numskulls like Michael Moore pick up on that, and run with it, to create utter disinformation campaigns. Yes, they did produce the greatest number of doctors per capita. But, most would have to leave the country to make a living, as they could not live very well on the $40 a month government salary. I met civil engineers, who had trained in Russia, and specialized in suspension bridges, who made $38 a month, and moonlighted as tour guides, to feed their families. All the while Castro was living in his gilded mansion, feasting on lobster tail, and socking away billions. For some of us, we were able to see for ourselves, and we saw that the dissemination was just that. When I would meet locals, they would nearly all say the same thing. Fidel was universally despised, and so was the regime. All of that was said in hushed tones, for fear of being discovered, and sent to one of his concentration camps, or marched before a firing squad. I would stop to chat with a local, and within minutes he would get picked up by the police. I would later find out he was held for days, under suspicion of offering either prostitution services or currency exchange. The government hated for the people to engage in exchange, as it gave them power and freedom. It was sickening. I stopped visiting, around 2008, as I got so disgusted with the government and the low quality of life the people had to endure under the despotic regime of the Castro brothers. They are absolute vermin, on every level. I was told by reputable sources that both brothers had fortunes into the tens of billions of dollars, and many of the generals were worth billions. Total hypocrisy. Castro lost his ideals, and sight of the bigger picture within 30 days of assuming power. It was all about the money, and the power, and the totalitarian rule. It was not about the people.

 

Shhhh....you'll upset the anti-US/pro-Castro crowd with stuff like this!

 

We were there one time in about 2001.  Took a boom box with us and left it with our friend from Guantanamo Bay when we left.  On the way home, he was arrested for having this.  The police said no way could he afford it, so it must have been stolen.  We had handwritten a note, in English and our poor Spanish, saying we gave it to him.  Didn't matter.  He spent some time in jail and lost the boom box.  Lovely country.  And people (who've never been there) wonder why most would never want to live there.  Whether they are rich or poor.

[spidermike007]

23 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

Shhhh....you'll upset the anti-US/pro-Castro crowd with stuff like this!

 

We were there one time in about 2001.  Took a boom box with us and left it with our friend from Guantanamo Bay when we left.  On the way home, he was arrested for having this.  The police said no way could he afford it, so it must have been stolen.  We had handwritten a note, in English and our poor Spanish, saying we gave it to him.  Didn't matter.  He spent some time in jail and lost the boom box.  Lovely country.  And people (who've never been there) wonder why most would never want to live there.  Whether they are rich or poor.

 

Very, very typical of the regime of despots. You have been made so poor by our policies, and our systematic repression of the people, that there is no way you could afford a $60 boom box. I know people who have been put into jail for the most minor of offenses. During my last trip in about 2008, "la grande cucaracha" (Fidel, for those of you who do not speak spanish. The grand cockroach). started losing his faculties, and really begun a heavy crackdown. He became very paranoid, and probably should have been put on heavy anti-depresent of bi-polar meds. He started having people locked up for the most minor of offenses. Women who were hanging out talking to their friends were locked up on suspicion of prostitution. It was quite sickening. I left a few days early on that trip, and vowed to never return, until they had cleared out the vermin. I hope that happens. Nothing of any real significance will happen as long as Raul is in power. No doubt he is less dogmatic than his older brother. But, he is also a pragmatist. If he can still maintain absolute control, while amassing many more billions of dollars, why not? 

 

I wish the best for the Cuban people. They deserve a better life, and they deserve better government. 

[gemini81]

12 hours ago, craigt3365 said:

Perhaps best to read up on why the US instituted sanctions.  Guaranteed it wasn't because they weren't getting a "piece of the pie". LOL 

I am well read up on it, try me. Under Batista, USA was heavily involved in Havana graft, prostitution rings, gambling and casinos. I think you ought to read up on it to.

[craigt3365]

11 hours ago, gemini81 said:

I am well read up on it, try me. Under Batista, USA was heavily involved in Havana graft, prostitution rings, gambling and casinos. I think you ought to read up on it to.

You mean USA mafia.  Not the government.  Get your facts straight.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Revolution

Quote

Although Batista had been a relative progressive during his first term,^[14] in the 1950s he proved far more dictatorial and indifferent to popular concerns.^[15] While Cuba remained plagued by high unemployment and limited water infrastructure,^[16] Batista antagonized the population by forming lucrative links to organized crime and allowing American companies to dominate the Cuban economy.

 

Seems the problem was another corrupt dictator, and corrupt government officials under him.  Can't blame the US for every bad thing that happens in the world.

 

P.S. Seems the mob is still going after Cuba! LOL

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/centralamericaandthecaribbean/cuba/12043024/Heirs-of-gangster-Meyer-Lansky-demand-compensation-for-nationalised-Cuban-casino.html

 

Quote

 

The heirs of American organised crime legend Meyer Lansky want compensation for his nationalised hotel, the Riviera, the seaside home to one of the last casinos built in swinging Havana of the 1950s.

 

U.S. and Cuban officials on Tuesday opened talks about honouring legal claims against the respective governments that were dormant for half a century and are now under review since the former Cold War foes have restored diplomatic ties.