Big Dog Problem, Need Urgent Help, Please

ColPyat · December 5, 2006

Two of my dogs developed a hate against each other recently, or better, one dog attacks the other constantly.

At the moment i am at the end of my dog knowledge what i can do about it. Basically, i have both dogs since years. Dog 'A' i picked up from the streets when he was about 1 or 2 years old, i have him now since about 6 years, dog 'B' came a year after to us when he was a tiny puppy. Both are Thai streetdogs, both males. Previously they were best friends, for years.

About half a year ago they have had a nasty fight, and things haven't been the same since. A month ago or so they have had another fight, again without any clear victor. Things detriorated further, and they started having more fights, always dog 'A' attacking dog 'B'.

Right now things are out of hand. Last week dog 'A' atacked dog 'B'. The next day i have put medicine on dog 'B' and dog 'A' attacked dog 'B' from the back, and i could not get my hand out of the way fast enough. Dog 'A' bit me badly, but i believe it was not intentional. Bad enough though, with daily hospital visits to get the bone deep wounds cleaned.

Dog 'B is very frightened and disturbed, hardly gets out of his cave under my sofa.

Today similar situation, dog 'B' on his rare visits out of the sofa, rubs his head on my leg, and dog 'A' attacks him viciously, i guess out of jealousy. He locks on dog 'B's ear, and even lets not lose when dog 'B' lies on the back and screams. I managed finally to pull dog 'A' off, dog 'B' hides again. Just now, hours after the incident i was able to get dog 'B' out of the cave to doctor his ear.

The big problem is that i have a two year old son, and i do fear very much that he might one day get between an attack. I know that this of course has to be avoided at all costs, and that therefore one of the dogs might have to go. I have a place upcountry on our farm.

Dog 'A', vicious as his attacks against dog 'B' are, is though lovely with my son, absolutely patient. But of course i am a bit insecure if there is a character change happening, and that he might change his behavior towards my son as well. So far though there is no indication for that.

My question is, does anyone here see a chance that i might get dog 'A' to stop attacking dog 'B'. I would even consider castration, or do you believe that this might make no difference?

Basically, i am open to all suggestions, preferrably from people who do know about dogs.

This is a very serious situation, and needs to be solved fast. Please, i need honest opinion from knowledgable people.

November Rain · December 5, 2006

OK, this sounds like a turf war. Dog A won the first round & will now keep going until he wins the entire war. Are they neutered? I would guess not, though we (the dog center I run) have neutered dogs that fight. Neutering males has many advantages, one of which is reduced aggression. I would get them both neutered as a matter of course.

Are there any females in heat in your area? Sexual frustration might have started it, as might food or jealousy. Can you separate them?

Behaviour wise, you have to decide who the leader is. (You should always be alpha, but who's next in the pecking order?) Much as you might choose the lower dog out of a sense of justice, you should go for the top dog. You should feed him first, pet him first - he's number 1. This goes against the human sense of what's right, but you're dealing with dogs. If you make a fuss of the underdog, it reinforces the jealousy. Much as you might hate it, you need to reinforce the pack pecking order. Subordinates in a pack actually do very well & are happy when they know where they stand.

Not sure if it'll work, as sometimes they do get ingrained in this "hatred" mode, we still have dogs that we can't let into adjoining areas because of this.

I'd try neutering & reinforcing the pack hierarchy & see how you go. It might just work, if not you might have to separate them, temporarily or (hope not) permanently

ColPyat · December 5, 2006

I'd try neutering & reinforcing the pack hierarchy & see how you go. It might just work, if not you might have to separate them, temporarily or (hope not) permanently

Thanks for you advise.

Dog 'A' was always alpha dog, and we treated him the way you pointed out. Dog 'B' was all his life submissive. We have a female as well, but she was neutered before we even got her.

We always had a slight problem with dog 'A' regrading his imagined alpha role over us. Unavoidable as we got him when he was already grown up. I got him though towards a point where his behavior was acceptable. And, he is lovely around our son.

The changes started suddenly, and the initial agression come only from dog 'A'. Dog 'B' fights back, but never initiates attacks. Right now he so frightened and disturbed that he does not dare to come out of his cave.

Both dogs were together now for more than 5 years, the problems started only about half a year ago. I don't think it is a turf war, as dog 'B' never challenged dog 'A's role as leader of the pack.

Dog 'A' is perfectly healthy, no crankyness because of sickness.

It seems that neutering is the only option. I have already asked for advise, and most people said that i should neuter dog 'A' straight away (as you also suggested), because chances are that dog 'A' might very soon develop his agressions towards humans as well. I was told that in most cases this would defuse the situation radically, and as in the few cases it doesn't, i should then also neuter dog 'B'.

What do you think?

bina · December 5, 2006

castration doesnt always work, especially if behavior patterns have developed; but first get dog completely vetted . wierd behavior changes can also be due to tumors etc so try a vet physical...

try to remember when the first time happened... what was the trigger

any females in heat in local area

dont take care of dog b s wounds in front of dog a, its the same as attention he doesnt know u are taking care of wounds

u may have to leash him at all times and keep him with u; to reinforce YOUR alpha status and then release him away from dog b, play and then back on leash or box again... and let dog b get his confidence bakc again...

HOWEVER since u have a small child, u may have to send one off to the farm for some 'reeducation' for a while as he can even be the cause of the fighting as he may be seen as a 'new ' member of the pack and being causing power wars and undercurrents that u dont see always when there are two against one, the two win so your alpha may see your son as 'number 2'..

i've seen this in families with more than one dog...

bina and anon

November Rain · December 6, 2006

bina's right. This may come from a medical problem and if not some behaviour modification might be required. From what you say, A has always been dominant, even challenging your role? Not sure where you are, but are you in an area where there is a dog trainer or dog behaviourist? If not, it may help to do an internet search about dominant dogs & see if there are any training tips that you haven't tried that you can utilise.

bina's also right that you shouldn't even tend to B's wounds when A is around - even the smallest thing can lead to the dog getting jealous.

I would try getting them both neutered, but A first, certainly. May not work, as it may be an ingrained thing now, but it does reduce some of the aggression hormones & if it's sexual frustration (female on heat, somewhere) it will definitely help. Good luck!

macb · December 6, 2006

CASTERATION:

THe above is nearly an old wives tale after 19yrs of professional handling we had many that came to us neutered and the aggression although channeled was still there:

This is a behavoural territorial problem, but remember also you are the boss not the the dogs are the boss over you:

It may sound easier said than done. As this dog fighting and ruling the roost culture is common in Thailand and around the villages.

It is diffifcult one for you, but they need to know you are there boss

ColPyat · December 6, 2006

Thanks a lot for all the advice.

A bit more information.

I don't think it has anything to do with our son - no jealousy involved. Dog 'A' is the most patient dog you can imagine with our son. The squirt pull his ears, nuts (not for much longer... ), pokes his finger in his eye, etc. when it gets too much he just wanders off.

Dog 'B' just ignores the son, he is a bit scared of children, and just avoids him.

I have certain problems with dog 'A's alpha status, but it is not out of order, and he does get punished when over the top. He is extremely attached to me and the wife, always has been. Usually when i have to go working in some other country for a few days or weeks he hardly eats.

The trigger of the situation was two neighbor's dogs who every day come barking at our gate. Our dogs go nuts. That was initially how the situation developed - dog 'A' just started then attacking dog 'B'. There is nothing i can do about it, they won't keep their dogs in their compound. The neighbors are not the sort of people i can talk to about it - the only thing they understand is violence, and i do not want to start a streetwar over this issue.

I can't also open the gate and let our dogs fight it out with the neighbor's dogs because one of the neighbor's dogs is very big and would slaughter our dogs.

Now though it does not even need that trigger anymore, since last week dog 'A' randomly attacks dog 'B'.

No females in heat either.

All our dogs never leave our compound. They have enough running space there, both have handicaps and would not be able to stand up against the streetdogs.

Basically, i have decided to get dog 'A' castrated today. Lets hope that it will get him down enough. I will also take very much care then to reinforce the hirarchy issue in the future, along the lines you suggested, more than before. I hope it works, as i am very attached to both of 'em, and i would not want to separate them unless absolutely necessary.

In two weeks we go for a christmas holiday to Europe, so, at least the son is out of the way then, and our relatives will take care of the house. If the situation does not improve during our absence, then i will have think about separating them. As things are now, most likely i will send dog 'B' upcountry, as he is less likely to go and kill the other farmer's chicken, and is a bit more independent a slightly less attached to us.

Thanks a lot for all the good advice. And keep the comments coming, please.

BambinA · December 6, 2006

I would try getting them both neutered, but A first, certainly. May not work, as it may be an ingrained thing now, but it does reduce some of the aggression hormones

agree..and if the neuter process can't help ..seperate them ..as u feed the dog A at the front part of your home and The dof B at the rare part

after neuterd the hormone will degrade in 3- 6mths

Thanks a lot for all the advice.
A bit more information.

I don't think it has anything to do with our son - no jealousy involved. Dog 'A' is the most patient dog you can imagine with our son. The squirt pull his ears, nuts (not for much longer... ), pokes his finger in his eye, etc. when it gets too much he just wanders off.

Dog 'B' just ignores the son, he is a bit scared of children, and just avoids him.

Teach your son and don't let him hurt the dogs..coz if one day the dogs can't stand no more , they can hurt your son ..

ColPyat · December 6, 2006

Teach your son and don't let him hurt the dogs..coz if one day the dogs can't stand no more , they can hurt your son ..

Yes, i do.

Everytime i catch him doing that i do get him off he dog straight away. But it ain't easy to reason with a two year old.

bina · December 6, 2006

col

what i meant wasnt jealousy but that now there was a new member of the pack so power shifts occur...

with a number two youngster your son, the A dog might now think he has a partner and two together is always nastier than one on one...

i'm totally positive that your dogs see your son as an other puppy not a dominant person... so the power balance shifts...as two year olds are small, crawl around alot, play/attack the older dogs as u say he pulls ears etc all the activities that a puppy upstart would be doing also, and your child dosnt give orders like u the proper alpha.

i've seen mixed results with neutering which is always a good thing but doesnt really always help; our neighbhors recently castrated their male terrier who has been harrassing my boxers for the past year; he still continues to harrass the female -- tthe male is now RIP---and the terriere's barking and territorialness towards passersby and other dogs has remaind, mostly due to the fact that they refuse to prevent the dog from running loose and protecting his section of our walkway past the house. it just helped him limit the amount of wanderlust that intact dogs have due to bitches in heat.

btw, our male used to attack our bitch also everytime dogs went past the house; or if strangers came to the door... it seemed to be a sublimized attack on us, so he attacked her... it took a year of remodelling behavior -- which i know how to do and needs patience , time and animal behavior experience--to break the habit. i had to read all the clues/signs etc to anticipate his reaction by watching his ears, body lang. muscle tension whatever, every single time, then divert his attention exactly before he launched himself at her, and teach him to greet the stranger etc. and when he wasnt with me, he was in his box/crate so he couldnt re inforce the bad behaviors... but frankly most people havent the patience experience or desire to do this and the whole family must be involved.

its really time consuming and not 100 percent successful with setbacks... with a two year old at home, your plan B might be better

********* actually, i would do it before your vacation cause relatives wont be able to take care of torn up dog/break up dog fights that might or might not happen. when we went on vacations, nero was in a boarding kennel and nala stayed home since his behavior would always worsen when we werent around and they were stressed.

ColPyat · December 6, 2006

********* actually, i would do it before your vacation cause relatives wont be able to take care of torn up dog/break up dog fights that might or might not happen. when we went on vacations, nero was in a boarding kennel and nala stayed home since his behavior would always worsen when we werent around and they were stressed.

Our relatives are good with the dogs, and know them since years. No problem with that. I'll see how it goes. Right now 'A' is in the process to become an alpha neuter and will stay with the vet for a few days until it's healed.

All my dogs have so far never been aggressive with people, only dog 'A' in the first weeks after i picked him up 6 years ago, but i solved that very fast. On the opposite, especially he is extremely happy with every human visitor. If he would have shown any aggression towards humans he would already be gone, regardless of my attachment.

The problem is only his agression towards dog 'B', and my fears that my son might get in between them. I do not see dog 'A' treating my son a an inferior, and my son does attempt already to order him around. I am watching, and teaching the son as it goes.

I don't want to give the impression that i spoil and pamper my dogs - i have grown up with dogs, had dogs all my life. It's only that i have never encountered such a particular problem. Both dogs have been with us or 6 and 5 years respectively. Until half a year ago there never was any animosity between them. No hirarchy challenges from dog 'B', no aggression between them.

My house and garden have enough space for them to run around, dig plants up, and do what dogs generally do. They are not circus dogs, but generally happy dogs and are following us as much as street mongrels generally can be expected to do.

Well, lets hope the neutering works. The vet said that the hormonal change will be in effect within two to four weeks. Until that we will have to be careful and seperate them as much as we can. An advantage is that dog 'B' so far does not want to confront dog 'A', and disappears into his cave as soon as dog 'A' come even close, and clearly shows his submissive position.

ColPyat · December 7, 2006

Update:

Dog 'A' is now an alpha neuter. He doesn't seem to suffer much at all and is rather happy to be at home again. I will keep them completely separated until the wounds have healed - dog 'A' will be inside the house, and the others will be outside, especially dog 'B'.

Thanks a lot for all the good advice, lots i will heed, and I'll keep you posted how it goes in the future.

November Rain · December 7, 2006

Glad his op went OK. Good luck!

PeaceBlondie · December 7, 2006

If I may be the odd man out in this dialog, it appears that the original poster and a veteranarian are the only ones who mention the safety of the HUMAN BEING. I had babies crawling on the floor and our wonderful dog of 12 years. He got a wound from worms that went into his flesh, and one night he was hiding under the bed when I tried to treat the wound for him. He bit me. He bit me, and I figured one of the kids was next. Within an hour, that old dog was humanely killed at the animal shelter.

Priorities. A human child is much more important than any old dog. Get Dog A out of the house first; that seemed like the most sensible thing from the beginning. Maybe Dog B as well.

Unless animals are more important than human beings.......sorry; I'll go quietly now.

ColPyat · December 7, 2006

Priorities. A human child is much more important than any old dog. Get Dog A out of the house first; that seemed like the most sensible thing from the beginning. Maybe Dog B as well.

Very much so, i definately agree. As much as i love my dogs, my son will always come first, no comparism there.

Dog 'A' is absolutely lovely with my son. Even today, when he was back from the op, there was no crankyness towards my son. But i am watching, especially now - always an eye open for the son.

If there would be any sign of agression towards my son - the dog is going to the farm.

The reason why i would send dog 'B' to the farm instead of 'A' is because he is not that good with children, he doesn't bite, but he wants to be left alone by kids.

Anyhow, i gonna watch it very carefully. The problem i see is not that any of my dogs would puposely attack the squirt, but that the squirt would get accidently in between a fight, like my hand did a week ago, which was the main reason for the panic post, and the neutering.

I believe it is a good thing when kids grow up with dogs in the house, and learn that way how to deal with dogs, respect them, but not be scared of them, and know to read them. But we never leave him alone with the dogs, there is always me or the missus in close vicinity.

ColPyat · December 7, 2006

Glad his op went OK. Good luck!

Thanks.

shantie · December 7, 2006

Hi .

How is your dog doing now?have you noticed any differens?

Reason I'm asking is .I have a dog of 8 years old .He always fights..loves kids is lovely with any person and some other unger dogs.,but for sure makes sure he is the older one heheh.

He hassent beed chopped yet thought.getting old now, ldropping his teeth out like a baby hihi.

He is still in thailand ,been taken care of a friend of myne..he had a heart attac, had to go to the vet for amonth on the mainland.I havent been able to get any answers from my friend,contacted him loads of times but nothing..I'm worried.

wondering if the heart attac will come back?

thx

November Rain · December 8, 2006

Shantie,

I hope your dog is OK. How long ago was the heart attack? Unfortunately, with heart conditions, there is always a risk it will happen again. Not sure if you were meaning that you were considering getting him neutered, but don't! The risk of him dying under anaesthetic is too great to be outweighed by any benefits neutering would bring. I hope you hear from your friend soon.

ColPyat · December 8, 2006

I have one more question. Shall i let the dog lick his wound, or shall i keep him in a collar preventing him from licking. I have had conflicting information, some said that it would be good to let him clean the wound, and others said that i would risk getting the wound infected?

November Rain · December 8, 2006

Try to prevent him licking. Not only could he get an infection, he could take the stitches out & leave an open wound which you'd have to then get dressed until it heals.

ColPyat · December 8, 2006

Try to prevent him licking. Not only could he get an infection, he could take the stitches out & leave an open wound which you'd have to then get dressed until it heals.

Thanks a lot.

Thought so already. I just got confused when some told me that it would be fine to let him lick.

Old Man River · December 8, 2006

Colpyat, I have two female dogs, a poodle and a golden and they fight. The poodle has been spayed, but it hasn't slowed her down at all as she is the aggressor. I think the golden just wants to play as that is their nature. Neither has ever bitten us and the poodle is a house dog. At times, we make a mistake and they get together, but I pick the poodle up and carry her away from the golden and the fighting stops.

I am sure that this wouldn't happen with the dog training experts (I have seen Dog Whisperer on TV) and it is amazing how they can sort these dogs out quickly. Still, for the rest of us mortals, better to keep them separated.

bina · December 8, 2006

keep him collared and keep any friendly dogs that are likely to 'clean' him away also; also away from anything that could snag his stitches or get dirt in them...like farm dirt... dont know if they told you but if he does lay around in the dirt etc u can usually wash him off using warm water and salt -half tspn salt to cup of water, use a syringe or just slather it on to keep dirt off... only if needed. keep an eye out for red puffiness that gets worse not better, and green stuff oozing...

spaying doesnt change the hormones quite the same way as castration does with a male....

bina

ColPyat · December 8, 2006

keep him collared and keep any friendly dogs that are likely to 'clean' him away also; also away from anything that could snag his stitches or get dirt in them...like farm dirt... dont know if they told you but if he does lay around in the dirt etc u can usually wash him off using warm water and salt -half tspn salt to cup of water, use a syringe or just slather it on to keep dirt off... only if needed. keep an eye out for red puffiness that gets worse not better, and green stuff oozing...
spaying doesnt change the hormones quite the same way as castration does with a male....

bina

Thanks, i will look out for the signs.

I keep him in the house until he's OK, and let him only briefly out into the yard, and then only on a leach so he can't get into the dirt. Dog 'B' sleeps outside for the time being, and i guess i will let the female sleep outside now as well, which she will not like.

ColPyat · December 8, 2006

Colpyat, I have two female dogs, a poodle and a golden and they fight. The poodle has been spayed, but it hasn't slowed her down at all as she is the aggressor. I think the golden just wants to play as that is their nature. Neither has ever bitten us and the poodle is a house dog. At times, we make a mistake and they get together, but I pick the poodle up and carry her away from the golden and the fighting stops.
I am sure that this wouldn't happen with the dog training experts (I have seen Dog Whisperer on TV) and it is amazing how they can sort these dogs out quickly. Still, for the rest of us mortals, better to keep them separated.

My aunt (she is into all thet stuff) actually went to the dog whisperer back in the west to consult her about our situation here in Thailand. The pendle confirmed that dog 'A' needs to be neutered.

At the moment i am somewhat hopeful. In the morning dog 'B' looked from the outside in, and dog 'A' did not react much, no real growling. Maybe it's just wishful thinking, so early on, but...

leisurely · December 8, 2006

Maybe he is still feeling the effect of the anaesthetic...............................

ColPyat · December 8, 2006

Maybe he is still feeling the effect of the anaesthetic...............................

That's the cheerful thought for the day...

Nienke · December 9, 2006

Maybe he is still feeling the effect of the anaesthetic...............................

That's the cheerful thought for the day...

Hi,

I hope I provide you with some understanding on the situation with the folloing:

Dog A’s abnormal aggression is caused by his (initially dormant) insecurity about his social position within his pack. It is very possible that due to the growing up of the child (he started walking, may not sleep during the day anymore, etc), but it is also very possible that Dog A starts suffering old age defects such as eye sight going down, hearing getting worse, first pains from arthritis (that he doesn’t really show yet, as dogs/animals do not show pain very quickly or is his handicap starting to trouble him <quote> both have handicaps and would not be able to stand up against the streetdogs <unquote> ).

Therefore, closely observe Dog A: does he has slightly more difficulties with getting up or laying down, do you have the impression that he sometimes really does not hear you while before he did, are his eyes still bright and clear or is there a slight color change? But whatever the motivation, Dog A finds it necessary to re-establish his rank again.

Dogs insecure about their social status can show abnormal aggression even when the other dog doesn’t do anything or shows all signs of submission. They are ongoing busy with controlling their environment in order to get information from that environment about their social status by seeking continuous attention and by ‘forcing’ the other pack members to submit <quote> I have certain problems with dog 'A's alpha status, but it is not out of order, and he does get punished when over the top. He is extremely attached to me and the wife, always has been. Usually when i have to go working in some other country for a few days or weeks he hardly eats.<unquote>

Often other kinds of aggression can be recognized such as territorial aggression, re-directed aggression (at the fence with the neighbor dogs and when the first real fight occurred) possession aggression, food-possession aggression and/or sibling rivalry.

Aggressive behavior is NOT genetic, it is learned behavior. The dog has learned that by showing certain (aggressive) behavior he can control his environment, which has been reinforced each time when it was shown. <quote> We always had a slight problem with dog 'A' regarding his imagined alpha role over us. Unavoidable as we got him when he was already grown up (I do not agree with this last sentence. There are non-confrontational dog friendly ways that can be very clear towards the dog about your higher position over him ). I got him though towards a point where his behavior was acceptable. And, he is lovely around our son.<unquote>

Castration can be an option, but it can’t prevent nor solve dominance aggression. It can, however, be a helpful tool in a behavior modification therapy.

Before deciding to do such an irreversible thing, it is of uttermost importance to understand which male dog is really highest in rank. Because it has to be the LOWER rank that should be castrated!!!!! After all, it is the highest rank that has the right to reproduce. If you take away his reproduction tools, the dog automatically drops in status in the eyes of the other dog, but that does not mean that Dog A still wants to give up his position as most of it is learned behavior with increased fights as result both in frequency and intensity (I do not state that this will happen, only that this can happen).

As been written in the OP <quote> A month ago or so they have had another fight, again without any clear victor<unquote> I’m not sure whether Dog B hasn’t challenged Dog A status in subtle ways unnoticed by the owner (Dogs immediately notice if the other starts showing physical or mental problems, long before we notice them).

Advice:

• Have a full body check up of Dog A, making sure he is not suffering any physical problem.

• Prevent any circumstances that can trigger aggression or any other unacceptable behavior.

• NEVER let your child together when both dogs are in the same area. There is a very serious danger that your child may end up in between them. And your child’s face is approximately at the same height as the dogs’ mouths. Plus that you already have encounter re-directed aggression in Dog A. (be aware of the unnoticed split second!)

• NEVER let your child unsupervised with any of the dogs ever. (with all the respect, that is what you already do). Although, Dog A loves your child to pieces, your child is growing up and soon will fall under the normal pack hierarchy. Meaning, in the dog’s mind, your child by that time will have to follow the hierarchy rules. He may or may not face a point once where Dog A finds it his duty to correct your child for improper behavior (in his mind).

• NEVER punish any dog when fights have occurred. They may take this as you favor the other or may join you and help in punishing the other.

• Castration of the lower rank dog. Keeping them apart for a period of not less than 6 weeks and then slowly reintroduce them again.

• Household rules and regulations should be reinforced consistently by all (adult) human household members in a non-confrontational way. Only punishing certain behavior at certain moments does not solve the problem, and in some cases even increases aggression.

• Obedience train both dogs.

But to be honest, in a case like this with a viciously attacking dog and a small child involved and where the owners have unsufficient control over the dog (Not blaming anybody, just based on the information written in this thread), advice over the internet can be downright dangerous. Little, very important things can be easily overlooked by the owner and by the ones who (with all the good intention) give advice as nobody have actually seen the dogs with their human pack members interacting. Therefore, behavior modification therapy is advised with a certified dog behaviorist. If this is not possible, it may be seriously considered to rehome one of the dogs.

I wish you good luck,

Nienke

ColPyat · December 9, 2006

If this is not possible, it may be seriously considered to rehome one of the dogs.
I wish you good luck,

Nienke

Thanks a lot.

I will take all your excellent advice to heart. Some of it i cannot do, some i will definately do.

I will see how it goes, and definately keep the option of sending one of the dogs (most likely dog 'B') to the farm if it does not work out. Priority has the safety of my son.

I do not see any diminished difficulty in seeing or hearing in dog 'A', no more difficulties than usual in getting up (he had a badly broken leg when we picked him up and has a limp).

The last fight the both have had, dog 'A' was clear winner, so i do hope that the hirarchy status was sufficiently re-inforced. I have let the fight go on for longer than i previously did for exactly that reason, and only interfered when dog 'B' did not put up any resistence whatsoever anymore, and things started getting dangerous.

Dog 'A's castration seems to have calmed him down a bit already (but that may be just wishful thinking). I will try to do as you suggested concerning behavior. Unfortunately the main trigger of the fights is not in my power to take away, and my neighbors simply don't care (don't get me started on that one, at least they are too frightened of my friends to be any more than being a pain in the arse), and i don't want to cause a possibly very violent conflict over the dog issue.

If things between the don't change, next step is getting dog 'B' neutered as well. and as last option i will send one of 'em upcountry.

Unfortunately 6 weeks seperation is impossible, so i have to make do without it, but especially considering your advice concerning behavior and hirarchy.

Could you help me some on what i can do with non-confrontational behavior modification of dog 'A's alpha problems towards us. Main signs of this are that we have an ongoing battle trying to get him to stop making his marks in our house (he knows that he should not do it, everytime we caught him out he disappears), another sign is that especially me and him have a battle over not allowing him to jump up on my leg when he greets me. That is an ongoing thing, he also knows that i am not allowing this, so he stops himself from doing it in my front, but makes then a small jump in my back before running off.

Dog 'A' is very smart, he knows the rules exactly, and delights in breaking them. But he is very much a human oriented dog, even though we picked him up from the streets when he was already grown up. I have to admit though that my wife can handle him much better than i can, even though he is completely fixated on me.

Dog 'B' is incredibly stupid, and very timid towards people. He doesn't know the rules (and i doubt that he will ever), but he always assumes that he must have broken one, even if he hasn't. He generally follows very well, only sometimes it takes a while for him until he gets it, if he gets it at all. He is happiest when left alone, and always goes off on strange missions around the household.

Dog 'C', a neutered female, is very smart as well, follows very well. The only point where we can't trust her is with food. She is a habitual thief, always getting dog 'B' into trouble. And she is a perfect hunter, keeping the rat population down very well (unfortunately once a cat as well ). She is very disturbed by the fights between dog 'A' and 'B', just runs and hides in a corner while both slug it out.

Dog 'B' and 'C' always play with each other, dog 'B' being higher in status, but that is equalised by his incredible stupidity (It really is beyond believe how stupid he is).

Dog 'A' is above playing with the other dogs, because he's the boss. He only plays with us. Only rarely he decides he is in the mood to play wth the other dogs.

Until the trouble started, a few months ago, triggered by the constant barking through the fence of our gate this was an almost perfect set up. Dog 'A' has been with us for 6 years (i think he was around 1 or 2 when we picked him up), dog 'B' for 5 years since he was tiny (it was very sweet how dog 'A' cared for dog 'B' when dog 'B' lost one of his legs), and dog 'C' has been with us for 3 years.

I do hope i can manage to get things back to the old set-up. I have no idea if there are any recources here in Bangkok for dog behaviorists, but i doubt that there are.

Nienke · December 11, 2006