As A Westerner How Did You React To A Death In Your Thai Family?

[dukkha]

Interested in how you experienced and dealt with death of a thai person who was, de facto, part of your thai family? Dukkha

[tutsiwarrior]

Interested in how you experienced and dealt with death of a thai person who was, de facto, part of your thai family? Dukkha

my wife's grandma died about 3 years ago...I went along to the wat to light incense and pay my respects. In the background a noisy wake was going on with cards, booze and etc. If I was expected to do anything it wasn't noticed...except by my wife who wasn't too bothered...

[Mahout Angrit]

Interested in how you experienced and dealt with death of a thai person who was, de facto, part of your thai family? Dukkha

My 25 year old daughter/step daughter died in the Tsunami, She was washed out of a dive shop on Phi Phi island where she worked. I cried my heart out for weeks. We are now 'parents' to her 9year old so I still get to see her everyday in the ways of her son, I wish she did.

Edited December 6, 2006 by Mahout Angrit

[tutsiwarrior]

Interested in how you experienced and dealt with death of a thai person who was, de facto, part of your thai family? Dukkha

My 25 year old daughter/step daughter died in the Tsunami, She was washed out of a dive shop on Phi Phi island where she worked. I cried my heart out for weeks. We are now 'parents' to her 9year old so I still get to see her everyday in the ways of her son, I wish she did.

oh, man...please receive my condolences...and to your poor wife...what a horror...

[Mighty Mouse]

My g/f lives with me in Sydney. She is very close to her family and phones them at least three times per week.

Her grandmother died last month. When she was living in Thailand, my g/f spent a lot of time with her grandmother, but when grandmother died, my g/f took it all in her stride.

I think that I was more upset than was she.

Her parents are now well into their senior years and I'm wondering what impact their death will have on the family and particularly on my g/f.

She being just one of a large family, perhaps the burden of grief is shared equally amongst them and they don't outwardly show too much emotion.

Could it be part of the Buddhist teaching?

[dukkha]

Many thanks for those of you who have contributed to this thread which is not the most jolly of topics but one which interests me, especially from the Buddhist perspective and the way I have seen my thai family deal with death. Dukkha

[Indifferent]

Treat a death in the family as it was your own. that siad...if they think you will pay for the funeral then they will probably expect you to pay for it.

Go by your g/f's reaction. If she doesn't give a ######..then why should you. If she is upset and needs condolenceses..give her all the support she needs and just do the polite stuff to anyone else. After all most people at the wake (for 3 days) will be getting drunk and probably don't even know the persons name.

[Farma]

I've lost 2 inlaws from cancer and grieved for them the same as I would for my own parents.

I'm in a new relationship and my wife's mother is knocking on deaths door due to cancer as well. I will grieve the same when she passes.

Indifferent's post reflects what I experienced when my first 2 inlaws passed on.

[tom579]

My girlfriend died in the tsunami on Phi Phi also. This is what I experienced in the weeks following her death.

As a westerner, and as someone who had never before experienced such tragedy, I felt an urgent need to let my emotions out. I didn't know what else to do with them. I was pulled up (gently) several times by Thai friends who were concerned about the way I was reacting: I think that, to them, I wasn't accepting the inevitability of death with jai yen (that is my own simple interpretation, as inaccurate as it may be). Consequently I learned to keep everything inside, at least in public. I don't necessary agree that it was the right answer for me, but as a visitor here, I respected it. It was a difficult lesson to learn though, difficult to understand what was happening in the community around me, while at the same time coping with losing my girlfriend. I was among Thai friends, but as a westerner, completely alone. One thing I always remember: during the cremation, a family friend took photos. No one objected, so I did not object, although it seemed completely wrong to me. Two years on, I am so glad I have copies of those photos, along with all the photos of my girlfriend. That's kind of hard to explain.

We made merit for several days after my girlfriend was cremated. I admit that it took its toll on me. One day, I was feeling quite emotional, and as I sat in front of one of the monks, he said very loudly 'Why are you crying?'. Quite a few people laughed (to cover their embarrassment for my tears?). I managed a smile, and his point was made.

One aspect of Thai society I find truly amazing is the extended family. On the evening we arrived back in the village with my girlfriend's body, around 10 women appeared, unasked, at our house. They proceeded to cook and clean for around 40 people every day for the next week (during my girlfriend's funeral and merit making). There was not one complaint, but also no tears: just gamlang jai, and as usual, a lot of singing, joking and laughing as they got on with the work. They encouraged me to remember my girlfriend with happiness, and not to be afraid to laugh and joke, or even get up and dance, as she loved to do so much. Not once did anyone openly dwell on the tragedy of a young life lost.

There was so much to do; there was almost no time to indulge in introspection. I was usually dragged out of bed at 3:30am to drive a gang of women to the market. They sat me in a corner out of the way, with a can of Chang and a straw to keep me awake, while they loaded the pickup with food. The day's work was only just beginning. We were all exhausted by the end of the week.

Naturally, there were indeed tears during the funeral, mainly among older women, close relatives of my girlfriend. To this day, my girlfriend's mother shows her emotions openly, in contrast to everyone else in the village. She was, and still is, totally distraught. Everyday for her, it feels like she lost her daughter only yesterday. As much as I miss my girlfriend (every day), I realise that it is little compared to the grief of a parent who has lost a child. I go to visit the family regularly. My girlfriend's mother appreciates that I think, she knows that I am the one person she can talk to openly, about her feelings for her daughter. Every visit, we go to the temple and make merit for her. That brings a sense of peace.

I know that my girlfriend's father feels the same - I was with them both in the days following the tsunami - but he has hidden his grief away completely now. Just last week I was sitting drinking (whiskey) with my girlfriend's aunt - they were particularly close. When she mentioned her niece, she was told not to talk about that. And that is the way it is. It is the same with our Thai friends on Phi Phi. They don't talk about the people they lost. Of course, I would never confront them about this, but occasionally, when eating food my girlfriend always liked or watching her favourite TV show, I will mention how much she used to like eating that food, or watching that show. Everyone smiles, but it goes no further. I was last on Phi Phi in November. I was feeling quite down about several things, and wanted some space to think. I decided to go to the tsunami memorial garden, and just spend some time thinking about my girlfriend. One of our Thai friends, who had not been to the garden yet, wanted to come along. I had planned to spend some time sitting on the bench in the garden, in quiet introspection. But as soon as I had lit a candle and incense, the friend said we should leave. I don't think she would have understood my need for soul searching at that time and place, so we left. I decided to come back on my own another time.

Reactions at the time of the tsunami are understandably a special situation because of the shocking events that were unfolding. While looking for my girlfriend's body at the mortuary, I found the local Thai people to be a tower of strength - very positive, tirelessly caring, providing food and drinks for the bereaved. Everyone smiled. I cannot say enough about the forensic teams and volunteers, Thai and foreign, who worked day and night to identify bodies. The most terrible job, but they did it with care and compassion. Simply incredible people.

We had no problems with Thai officialdom. Our contact with the police and government departments as we arranged for release of the body, the death certificate and compensation, was efficient at all times.

Much has been said about how mercenary journalists were in their need for a story at this time. One day I stood at the mortuary, holding the hand of my girlfriend's mother, both of us crying - a fairly un-Thai scene. A camera crew - from Korea I think - approached and asked for an interview. My girlfriend's mother simply ignored them and I was physically unable to speak. They backed off immediately and respectfully.

The guy who took Anna's coffin and me to the airport was fairly indifferent, and his kid, who sat between us in the cab of the pickup was curious but cautious. It was early morning and he stopped off for M150 on the way. He had probably been carrying bodies through Krabi for a couple of weeks by then. It was very tough for everyone.

The Thai Airways staff at Krabi were fantastic. They seemed to feel my girlfriend's death very personally; I was very aware of their sadness in losing one (thousands) of their own people. They carried her body to Khon Kaen free of charge. As I waited at the airport, the enormity of what I was doing sank in, and I started to lose any composure I might have had. The airport staff took care of me with great kindness but were never intrusive. The following year I was going through Krabi airport again, and one of the staff pulled me aside as I went to board. My heart started racing as I tried to imagine what law I had broken. She simply remembered me from the day I took my girlfriend home and wanted to ask how I was.

We were met at Khon Kaen airport by a delegation from the village, including the village leader. He escorted us home and to the temple, to begin my girlfriend's funeral. Many people came. In my experience, the people of Thailand responded magnificently during that time. In this regard, I respect Thai people and their ways immensely. I feel privileged to be living here.

Mahout Angrit, I am very sorry to hear about your step daughter. Some people have said that it is fortunate my girlfriend and I did not have children. I think that is impossible to know. I am sure you feel her son is a gift for you to treasure.

[helicoptor]

a great post, I have a lump in my throat reading it, I would just like to convey my sincerest sympathy to you and wish that, through time the pain will ease for you, Thai advice to remember your girlfriend in a good is the best advice, definately.

[tutsiwarrior]

yeah...a great post. One's emotional trauma at the sudden, violent death of a loved one is hard to understand by others even within a familiar cultural milieu much less that of a falang within a thai environment.

Please receive my condolences.

[sbk]

tom579 makes a very good point in his moving post, that a Thai funeral is a long exhausting process for the family. And this, I believe, helps get their minds off their grief. They are so busy that they can't let their grief overwhelm them and then, at the end of it, just so tired they only want to rest.

It gives the death some space and allows the family some perspective.

[November Rain]

I'm so sorry for your losses, tom579 & Mahout Angrit. Losing a loved one at that time, surrounded by everyone's curiosity & horror must have been an incredibly difficult experience.

My (Thai) boyfriend died in March this year. He'd been in ICU for just over 2 weeks, in a coma & on a respirator for much of it. I can't describe how I felt, I still can't put it into words. The hospital where he died called me a couple of hours before he went so I had time to come in & say goodbye with our little boy & my mum. Then Mum took littl'un home & I called all his friends. We all sat with him until he went & I was holding his hand as his heart gave out. Somehow I knew, immediately, although the respirator was still breathing for him.

We all said our goodbyes & I had to sort out some official things. We sat in the lobby for a while, his Thai friends & I sorting out who would do what for him, over the next days. Totally surreal. I had an English friend with me (married to a Thai friend of my BF) & she was great, as was my Mum, who came as soon as she heard.

He had a 5 day funeral & I, his son, & some of his friends went every day. Others went some days & not others. I didn't understand the funeral, but everyone tried to help me do the right thing. I was treated as his wife throughout, which I appreciated. If I asked questions, someone always tried to answer me. Mum & I paid for much of the funeral, but each of his friends & colleagues "took" a day, where they paid for refreshments etc. His boss also paid for his coffin. The hardest day for me was when his friends did a "jam session" (he was a musician) His group & many others faced his coffin & sang to him all afternoon & into the evening. I cried my eyes out & had to retreat to somewhere I could be on my own, as I had been told you weren't allowed to cry. That was really hard.

His son (4 then, 5 now) really enjoyed all the people & attention & seemed to take it all in his stride. He's still doing OK, although a little pre-occupied with death.

On the actual cremation day (the day after his 39th birthday!) I had a hard time. I couldn't face people telling me he was happy now & I ended up throwing the coins into the crowd pretty viciously. The following day (putting his bones in the sea) in contrast was a really peaceful, lovely thing to do. He always loved the sea.

Sorry for this rather rambling account, it has been cathartic to try to put it into words

[Douggie Style]

Interested in how you experienced and dealt with death of a thai person who was, de facto, part of your thai family? Dukkha

My 25 year old daughter/step daughter died in the Tsunami, She was washed out of a dive shop on Phi Phi island where she worked. I cried my heart out for weeks. We are now 'parents' to her 9year old so I still get to see her everyday in the ways of her son, I wish she did.

I am so sorry for you..very sad.

(After further reading also extend thoughts to tom579 & other posters)

Edited December 12, 2006 by Douggie Style

[Douggie Style]

My g/f lives with me in Sydney. She is very close to her family and phones them at least three times per week.

Her grandmother died last month. When she was living in Thailand, my g/f spent a lot of time with her grandmother, but when grandmother died, my g/f took it all in her stride.

I think that I was more upset than was she.

Her parents are now well into their senior years and I'm wondering what impact their death will have on the family and particularly on my g/f.

She being just one of a large family, perhaps the burden of grief is shared equally amongst them and they don't outwardly show too much emotion.

Could it be part of the Buddhist teaching?

From my understanding it is, at times I have been surprised at the seeming resiliance..however you never know what is going on the inside.

[tutsiwarrior]

this has been an interesting thread...death and the associated grief is one of the hardest things that anyone has to deal with. As sbk pointed out people stay busy as a way to not confront their grief but it always comes washing back despite whatever means that are taken to buttress it.

In the US my brother-in-law recently lost his mother and his first reaction was to comfort those that were concerned...she was a special person to lots of people. I did the same when my mother was killed in an accident...other people's grief needed to be attended to. We all manage to do what we have to in these circumstances it seems...our personal time of grieving comes later.

my condolences to everyone contributing to this thread that has lost someone...

Edited December 12, 2006 by tutsiwarrior

[tom579]

November Rain, I am very sorry to hear about your husband. Reading your post I felt for you: it is very hard being told that you are not allowed to cry.

Like you, at times, I didn't want to be a part of it all. One particular ritual during our merit making was for me to take a tray of my girlfriend's favourite food outside, away from the house, and wait for her spirit to come and eat. I think I was only supposed to sit there for a couple of minutes - perhaps it was symbolic, although many people asked me if she had come to eat - anyway, I felt much better out there alone with my thoughts. I sat there for about half an hour until someone realised I was missing. Having said that, I do find the action of taking some of my girlfriend's favourite things when we make merit for her a comforting thing to do. It seems sentimental, but I don't think sentiment is part of the Thai approach to death. I suppose it is considered spiritually practical.

It was good to read your post, November Rain. It must be hard to write about your husband dying only this year. But I agree, it is cathartic to reflect on how we came through such trauma. People are different, but in my view it certainly helps to talk. I suppose that is what Dukkha was getting at: it seems to be a major difference between Thai culture and several western cultures. Of course, we travel to experience different cultures, and I am very happy to be part of this one. Sometimes though, it is difficult, for reasons that transcend cultural expectations. It is good to have TV to express that from time to time.

To echo tutsiwarrior, my sympathy to everyone coping with the death of a loved one.

[Bryan in Isaan]

On the topic of grief - but that of the Thais over their loved ones. My wife and I were at a concrete supply yard in NE Thailand a few years ago while we were building our house. The owner, a woman about 30 yrs old was waiting on us. We had been there a few times, but were not close friends with her. The woman was talking with my wife and mentioned that her husband died in an electrical accident, I think a few years before, and the she broke out sobbing. My wife, who is westernized from living in the states for years talked with her, hugged her and so forth. This seemed unusual to me that anyone, especially a Thai would confide in us like that and display emotions in this way. She probably felt safe with my wife and was able to let go.

Bryan

[tuky]

When my Wife's Grandmother passed away several years ago we did the funeral bit, there was drinking and laughing and fireworks etc etc, the thing that was hardest for my wife to deal with was the fear of the Gandmother's ghost.

There was nothing I could say or do to make her feel more secure, it was months before I could leave her alone at night, and months before she could sleep without having me sitting on the bed making sure she was safe.

Whilst nobody was emotional most were certainly irrational.

Our nephew is still in the ICU, he came off his bike. He has lost one leg, the other was bent up around his head, he has lost one eye and most of his face. My wife and I didn't go in the to the room to see him because neither of us felt able to cope seeing him in that condition but most of the other family members went in for a look, I found it more out of morbid curiosity than support for either him or the family, but no family member will pass by where he went down just in case he has died and his ghost is back at the scene (it was a hit and run).

As for my reaction as a westerner, I must say I do distance myself from it all, what reasons I do not know.

[November Rain]

Oh, yes. The "ghost thing". Actually that made me quite annoyed after my boyfriend died. My Thai helper refused to come into my house for about a week after his funeral, because his picture (the one that they have at the funeral - I have it along with a small urn with some ashes in it) scared her. Even then, she wouldn't come in alone. Then a while later a bandmate of his asked me to light a candle & incense for him, which I readily agreed to, being happy his friends still cared for him. Oh, no, it wasn't for that. It was because some silly woman in BKK who knew my BF in passing said she kept seeing him & was scared. I had to ask my BF to stop haunting her!!

I actually do believe in some of this, as I had loads of inexplicable incidents in the week of BF's funeral, but I believe if BF were to expend enough psychic energy to visit someone, it would be someone he loved (me, his son, my mum, his family) rather than someone he hardly knew with an overactive imagination!

[gburns57au]

Most Thais celebrate death as going on to a better life, sure there is grief concerning the loss of a dear one but the belief that the person is moving on to a new and possibly better life is a great comfort to them.

My fiance lost both her grandmothers in the past year and she displayed no grief at all, My ex BIL actually run over and killed an old lady in the village and attended the funeral, my ex was actually excited about it when she told me what had happened, my friend and I went to the old ladies house which was just a supported thatch roof to see how her daughter was and she started crying but was smiling at the same time. They definately look at death in a different way to most Westerners.

But how do I react...I usually tend to stay away unless it is a close family member or unless invited....and then I do just as the Thais do, although it has taken a few funerals to get used to it.

[dukkha]

I am pleased I began this thread as people's anecdotes are proving to be of support to one another...I have always been impressed with the thai saying..born, get old, get sick, then die....there doesnt appear to be as many taboos etc that are involved in the western manner of dealing with death...of course I dont agree with the notion of buying ones way to heaven, my efforts at merit making wouldnt take me very far if that is the case..when my partners grandmother was dying he asked that I go to the village, my first visit, she was lying on the floor surrounded by all in sundry each day, when one of her daughters asked me if it would be better that she be taken to hospital I replied that she is receiving more love and compassion here without tubes and monitors blinking than at any hospital either in the west or in Thailand, they agreed and two days after my visit she passed away with all of them beside her...it was a great lesson for me in accepting death and am grateful to have experienced it... Dukkha