China says Pearl Harbor visit won’t ‘clear’ Japan’s wartime role

[tonbridgebrit]

20 hours ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

 

Under Mao 30 million died in the most hideous ways and some even turned to cannibalism to survive. The Chinese should be more honest about their own history.

Yeah, so if China owns up to killing 30 million Chinese under Mao's time, how does that change the issue of Japan doing mass murder during World War Two ????

Will it make you happier, will it make America and Europe safer, if China never again kills 30 million Chinese people ?

 

[tonbridgebrit]

16 minutes ago, Cook my sock said:

To answer both

If you read the news..they certainly do not

Yes, what the Chinese leaders did 20 yrs later

I'm not sure what you're trying to say.
Pattaya is packed with Chinese tourists, even Chang Mai is getting a whole load of them. You do reckon, Thailand is trying to boost tourist numbers ?

In the Philipinnes, Duterte seems to be well in with Beijing.

What China's leaders did 20 years later ?  When did China take over other countries, and carried out mass murder on the same scale as Germany or Japan ??

 

[tonbridgebrit]

America dropped two atomic bombs on Japan towards the end of World War Two, hence, America got the justice it needed.

With China, China never did get justice over World War Two.

 

[Cook my sock]

Yeah, so if China owns up to killing 30 million Chinese under Mao's time, how does that change the issue of Japan doing mass murder during World War Two ????

Will it make you happier, will it make America and Europe safer, if China never again kills 30 million Chinese people ?
 

You're the one Digging the past up. What the Chinese did to its own people was staggeringly awful.
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/news/maos-great-leap-forward-killed-45-million-in-four-years-2081630.html

[ExpatOilWorker]

3 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Moa, Stalin, and all those other communist "men of the people" murdered, tortured and used all sorts of economic and social controls to keep their people enslaved. History should reflect that. 

 

Doesn't excuse the appalling Japanese crimes nor their failure to repent though.

 

Until China acknowledge their own past, they should stop lecture other countries what to do. The Japanese themselves suffered tremendously during WWII. 

[jcsmith]

On 12/28/2016 at 8:26 AM, phantomfiddler said:

But isn,t China doing in the South China Sea exactly what Japan attempted to do 80 years ago ? ie take over a large area that did not belong to them ! Hypocrites !

 

I would guess most people would hope that they have learned a lesson from the mistakes of their ancestors. It isn't like any of these guys had anything to do with what happened there.

[geriatrickid]

23 hours ago, Grouse said:

 

Always a mistake to apply 21st century morals to a situation 200 years previously. The British were buying Chinese tea, ceramics and silk and selling opium. All sorts of appalling things were going on at the time including slavery and tobacco production. How far do you want to go back?

 

It is not a mistake to understand the basis for the  heavy emotions the Chinese attach to foreign invasions. Nor is this about applying 21st century morals. Rather it is a rational explanation for  Chinese strategy. If your  homeland was invaded and looted  by foreigners, I expect, many in your country would be resentful and angry. Need an example? The War of 1812 and the USA's attempt to forcibly seize Canada and to annex the territory. The fear and resentment of US expansionism drove Canadian politics for over a century. It is why a national railway was built, and it is one of the principal causes of a deep resentment in Canada of the USA. The burning  of the US White House is a source of pride in Canada as was the defeat of the superior numbers of  US troops, all done without much assistance from England. 

[geriatrickid]

52 minutes ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

 

Until China acknowledge their own past, they should stop lecture other countries what to do. The Japanese themselves suffered tremendously during WWII. 

 

The suffering of the Japanese was of their own doing and they deserved and still deserve much worse.  Look up  the "live' experiments the  Japanese conducted on  the Chinese.  Look at the  slave labour of US & Commonwealth POWs in Japan. Look up how the Japanese population as a whole profited and  lived comfortable lives based upon their abuse of the Chinese.

 

Today, the Japanese and their leaders still pay homage to brutal war criminals. At least Angela Merkel and other  German leaders have never  bowed down before shrines set up to honour Hitler, Goering, Himmler and the  rest of those maniacs. How can anyone respect the Japanese when they celebrate the  war crimes of their past? One day Japan will pay for its arrogance and refusal to accept responsibility or apologize when the region looks the other way when the Chinese lay waste to the land of the rising sun.

[Grouse]

3 minutes ago, geriatrickid said:

 

It is not a mistake to understand the basis for the  heavy emotions the Chinese attach to foreign invasions. Nor is this about applying 21st century morals. Rather it is a rational explanation for  Chinese strategy. If your  homeland was invaded and looted  by foreigners, I expect, many in your country would be resentful and angry. Need an example? The War of 1812 and the USA's attempt to forcibly seize Canada and to annex the territory. The fear and resentment of US expansionism drove Canadian politics for over a century. It is why a national railway was built, and it is one of the principal causes of a deep resentment in Canada of the USA. The burning  of the US White House is a source of pride in Canada as was the defeat of the superior numbers of  US troops, all done without much assistance from England. 

 

My comment was related to moralising about The British selling opium not about the threat to territory. If you want go down that route then Russia has the best case....

[narak34]

On 12/28/2016 at 8:26 AM, phantomfiddler said:

But isn,t China doing in the South China Sea exactly what Japan attempted to do 80 years ago ? ie take over a large area that did not belong to them ! Hypocrites !

 

Eh no. The Japanese murdered and raped millions of people. The South China sea is not populated. Not a very good comparison.

[ExpatOilWorker]

15 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

 

The suffering of the Japanese was of their own doing and they deserved and still deserve much worse.  Look up  the "live' experiments the  Japanese conducted on  the Chinese.  Look at the  slave labour of US & Commonwealth POWs in Japan. Look up how the Japanese population as a whole profited and  lived comfortable lives based upon their abuse of the Chinese.

 

Today, the Japanese and their leaders still pay homage to brutal war criminals. At least Angela Merkel and other  German leaders have never  bowed down before shrines set up to honour Hitler, Goering, Himmler and the  rest of those maniacs. How can anyone respect the Japanese when they celebrate the  war crimes of their past? One day Japan will pay for its arrogance and refusal to accept responsibility or apologize when the region looks the other way when the Chinese lay waste to the land of the rising sun.

 

So you are condemning war by encouraging war. Bah!  

Edited January 2, 2017 by metisdead
Please do not modify someone else's post in your quoted reply, either with font or color changes.

[Cook my sock]

Yes it was really going well til that rant at the end

[Humberstone]

I might be wrong here, but in answer to some of the comments above, Japan has, on many occasions, issued apologies for their actions during WWII and the 1930's. The problem is that that these apologies are couched in a very Japanese diplomatic language and are not deemed sufficiently profuse or go far enough and, much worse, Japanese PM's and senior officials continue to visit *that* shrine in Tokyo.

 

I'm not trying to down play what the Japanese did, nor am I in the '2 wrongs somehow make a right' school by using the equivalence of crimes committed by the Chinese and the Allies as an excuse (it never is).

[Yann55]

On 29/12/2016 at 10:36 PM, geriatrickid said:

 

In what imaginary  universe did this seizure  of $US 20 billion occur? Ever  hear of the Treaty of San Francisco?  Mainland China was not a signatory at the time,  and was  intentionally excluded. The Treaty awarded compensation of $15.8 billion of assets to China, of which  a large portion were assets that the Japanese had taken from the Chinese dating back to 1901 and more specifically, the illegal occupation of Manchuria.  What do you think that works out to if you use the  Treaty of San Francisco's 14 million Chinese killed  by the Japanese? Works out to about  $1000 per fatality doesn't it? Hardly, big bucks.

 

The Japanese occupation of Manchuria was brutal and was on the same level of colonial occupation as the Portuguese in Angola and Namibia or the Belgians in the Congo. Absolute theft with no investment in anything. At least the French and British left schools, hospitals and other infrastructure behind in China.

The Japanese investments were intended to benefit Japan  through the use of cheap labour.

 

Yes, let's look at the  Chinese behaviour in their region. Are you aware that the  issue with the Spratleys and other territories goes back to the Treaty of San Francisco? Because the Chinese were intentionally excluded, the Chinese claims  for the return of the territories were never resolved. That's why they exist today. Thank the idiots of the 1950's who thought that they could marginalize  and isolate the Chinese.

 

Yes, the Chinese can be accused of exploiting Africa, but the reality is that unlike the westerners, the Chinese have not forced themselves on anyone. The Chinese have filled a vacuum created by the west. The Chinese haven't committed a genocide like the Belgians did in the Congo did they? How about a forced militarization of a country as the Germans did in Botswana?  Have the Chinese engineered the overthrow of any elected governments in Africa as the  USA did in Zaire?  Did they violently suppress any local government attempts in a brutal manner as was done  by the British in Kenya, or the French in Algeria?

 

I am no fan of the Chinese. My family lost  its Chinese assets, first to the Japanese and then to the communists, with the final insult, the family patriarch detained for being an anti revolutionary agent of a foreign power, aka a spy. He was only released  in the mid 1950's as the last of the foreigners were expelled. There were tens of thousands of westerners who had been born and raised in China, and all were mistreated and all lost everything. And yet,   because of the Japanese war crimes, the forced starvation and trauma of the Chinese that they had witnessed they understood why the Chinese were so angry and resentful. The horrors of the Japanese  occupation are worse than what the Germans did. It emotionally scarred and traumatized  generations of  Chinese.  

 

Our own countries helped  create the double standard. Look at how the  Commonwealth  & US POWs were abused by the Japanese, and the Japanese were never fully held accountable for it. The horrors inflicted on the POWS from Singapore and Hong Kong and the death marches like Bataan are unknown to the Japanese public. How can  one expect the Chinese to  care about western sensitivities, when the west gave a pass on the war crimes to the Japanese?

 

A remarkable post, well informed and well written. Thank you.

 

What a nice and refreshing difference it makes with the many ignorant rants that are all too often offered on this Forum by people who seem to think that if they're aggressive and impolite enough, that will somehow make them right as well.

[tonbridgebrit]

On 01/01/2017 at 3:04 PM, Cook my sock said:

You're the one Digging the past up. What the Chinese did to its own people was staggeringly awful.
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/news/maos-great-leap-forward-killed-45-million-in-four-years-2081630.html

People are trying to make the connection between Japan's crimes during World War Two, and stuff being done by China.

Let's just say, that Mao did kill 45 million Chinese in China. That's not the same thing is it, as Japan and Germany taking over other peoples' countries, and doing mass murder in those other countries ?  Can you see that ?

So, it might be the case that China butchered a load of Chinese in China. But Japan butchered a load of people OUTSIDE of Japan,  Japan did this whilst invading other countries. China hasn't done that. Nobody has died because of China claiming that it owns the South China Sea.

 

[tonbridgebrit]

On 01/01/2017 at 4:47 PM, ExpatOilWorker said:

 

Until China acknowledge their own past, they should stop lecture other countries what to do. The Japanese themselves suffered tremendously during WWII. 

A load of Japanese soldiers were killed by British, American, Australian, Chinese, etc, soldiers. Do we really have any sympathy for those Japanese soldiers ?

How much sympathy have you got for the Germans who were killed by Allied bombng raids during World War Two ? Why have special sympathy for the Japanese who were killed by the US bombing raids ?

If China did actually kill a load of Chinese in China during Mao's time, do you really reckon that China should be punished for this ? After all, Japan should be punished and condemned, right ?

A lot of the China bashers do actually reckon, "it would have been better if Mao had of killed 100 million rather than 50 million Chinese".

 

[ilostmypassword]

2 hours ago, tonbridgebrit said:

People are trying to make the connection between Japan's crimes during World War Two, and stuff being done by China.

Let's just say, that Mao did kill 45 million Chinese in China. That's not the same thing is it, as Japan and Germany taking over other peoples' countries, and doing mass murder in those other countries ?  Can you see that ?

So, it might be the case that China butchered a load of Chinese in China. But Japan butchered a load of people OUTSIDE of Japan,  Japan did this whilst invading other countries. China hasn't done that. Nobody has died because of China claiming that it owns the South China Sea.

 

Tibet, anyone?

[Cook my sock]

People are trying to make the connection between Japan's crimes during World War Two, and stuff being done by China.

Let's just say, that Mao did kill 45 million Chinese in China.
But Japan butchered a load of people OUTSIDE of Japan
 

LOL

So it's ok to kill your own
I've read it all now.

[ilostmypassword]

18 hours ago, tonbridgebrit said:

People are trying to make the connection between Japan's crimes during World War Two, and stuff being done by China.

Let's just say, that Mao did kill 45 million Chinese in China. That's not the same thing is it, as Japan and Germany taking over other peoples' countries, and doing mass murder in those other countries ?  Can you see that ?

So, it might be the case that China butchered a load of Chinese in China. But Japan butchered a load of people OUTSIDE of Japan,  Japan did this whilst invading other countries. China hasn't done that. Nobody has died because of China claiming that it owns the South China Sea.

 

I know. It's like domestic violence, right? It's really bad to kill a stranger, but your own wife, not so much.

[tonbridgebrit]

On 04/01/2017 at 5:10 PM, ilostmypassword said:

I know. It's like domestic violence, right? It's really bad to kill a stranger, but your own wife, not so much.

Look, people are using the issue of Mao killing a load of Chinese in order to justify fighting a future war against China. Most of those who raise the issue of Mao doing his mass murder are against China, the people of China. They certainly don't care about people in China, they simply want to see a strong military, ready for whatever future war against China.

America and Europe are certainly not in danger because of China. That's important. China has not done mass murder outside of China's borders, people should stop being ridiculous by having belief that China might start doing this.

 

 

[ExpatOilWorker]

On 7/1/2560 at 2:25 AM, tonbridgebrit said:

Look, people are using the issue of Mao killing a load of Chinese in order to justify fighting a future war against China. Most of those who raise the issue of Mao doing his mass murder are against China, the people of China. They certainly don't care about people in China, they simply want to see a strong military, ready for whatever future war against China.

America and Europe are certainly not in danger because of China. That's important. China has not done mass murder outside of China's borders, people should stop being ridiculous by having belief that China might start doing this.

 

 

 

Japan was very a isolated and inward nation prior to 1900, but the next 45 years were very different, so the past in no guideline to predict the future.

Please give me ONE, just a single major military power that never have used military force outside their own borders throughout history.

Tough, right?

Once you have a big military, you need to use it, if not it might go after the very state that created it. A certain country famous for tom-yam-gung spring to mind.

 

Edited January 8, 2017 by ExpatOilWorker

[ExpatOilWorker]

On 3/1/2560 at 10:31 PM, tonbridgebrit said:

A load of Japanese soldiers were killed by British, American, Australian, Chinese, etc, soldiers. Do we really have any sympathy for those Japanese soldiers ?

How much sympathy have you got for the Germans who were killed by Allied bombng raids during World War Two ? Why have special sympathy for the Japanese who were killed by the US bombing raids ?

If China did actually kill a load of Chinese in China during Mao's time, do you really reckon that China should be punished for this ? After all, Japan should be punished and condemned, right ?

A lot of the China bashers do actually reckon, "it would have been better if Mao had of killed 100 million rather than 50 million Chinese".

 

 

I have all the sympathy in the world for the average Fritz in the German Wehrmacht and anybody who have ever read about Stalingrad would tend to agree with me. They were victims of the time and most would probably have taken great pleasure in slow roasting a certain Adolf.

I am sure that most young Japaneses men deep down also knew that a haircut and a glass of Sake was a bad deal for a flight into the sunset in a plane with a full bomb load and a half empty fuel tank.