Obama expels 35 Russian diplomats, accuses Russia of meddling in election

[craigt3365]

5 minutes ago, jaidam said:

I always enjoy your posts, you are an honest poster (and were also a v fair mod)

but hopefully your views are not the norm for the Dem party. If the dems really are going to blame Mr.Putin for the electoral drubbing, you guys are going to again field Clinton in 4 yrs on a platform of open borders and then again act thunderstruck when Don or Ivanka wipes the floor with you. Come on guys, your candidate blew, she lost, stop blaming manbearpig/putin/global warming for it. Take responsibility for heavens sake. I'm not sure I can handle 4 years of this frantic whining and random blame casting.

LOL!  Perfect!  For the record, I'm not democrat nor republican.  I'm an independent.  I didn't like either candidate, so out of protest, didn't vote.  If I would have, it would have been with one of the underdogs. 

 

Yes, Hillary blew.  So did Trump.  A majority of voters didn't like either one.  But that's no reason for a foreign power to hack a system and potentially influence an election.

 

I'm amazed at how many here are happy this happened.  I'm guessing these are either Trump supporters or non-Americans.  If the tables were turned (Trump was hacked and lost) or one of these non-American posters had a similar hack in their country, the comments would probably be vastly different from them.  In the end, it's great Obama is going to do something about it.  Trump has vested interests to make this go away.  And quickly.

 

I read an opinion piece that said there's still an option to have him disqualified to become president.  I can't remember the article, but will try to find it.  Something like one republican and one democrat have to file something and it would be taken to a vote.  So, this might be what's worrying Trump.  For good reason!!

[alocacoc]

To me, as a European that's all funny. IMO, the EU should start to kiss Donald's arse and lift the sanctions against Russia. 

[Kasset Tak]

7 hours ago, craigt3365 said:

So you are saying it'd be OK for Russia to hack your government's computer systems and expose misdeeds?  With zero regard as to the consequences or the data exposed?  Or many hack into other systems?

 

When did the US hack into other country's political parties email servers and publish that data on the internet?

 

Agreed that some interesting info was exposed, but this isn't the way to go.  Where do you stop?  It's a slippery slope.  And it's not just about the election system hack, though this is the driving force.  Russia has hacked into many different systems in the US over the years.  Time to fight back.

 

Good job.  One day, these hacks could have an impact on you.  And guaranteed, they already are.  Increasing company's security costs, which is passed along to you.

 

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/02/05/an-inside-look-at-whats-driving-the-hacking-economy.html

 

 

http://www.news.com.au/technology/online/hacking/criminal-hacking-groups-in-russia-are-becoming-more-like-sophisticated-corporations/news-story/4ce33b50da25041d1b3f4b30af2addbe

 

 

 

NSA and CIA basically has one directiv, to gather information about other countries and people of interest, people like the German prime minister and the French president. The difference is that US don't want the information they get to get out publicly... Unless it will be in the interest of US.

And basically US complaining that Russia are meddling is hypocrisy as US has been meddling in most countries internal affairs, elections and so on sins the end of WWII.

[smotherb]

1 hour ago, Honthy said:

Why do you think these hacking happened? Just to know what Merkel had for dinner ? 

Hacking to gather intelligence is one thing; disseminating what you have gathered with intent to persuade is another,

[Rhys]

4 hours ago, soalbundy said:

next week, Russia expels 35 American diplomats

 

 

Early new years gifts from the comrades...

[dick dasterdly]

20 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

I can't believe the support  given here for the Russian hacking and yes, interference in the US electoral process. Is there no respect for the US voting system? IS the  petty hatred of political opponents so great that it causes some Americans to support an attack on their own nation? Truly disgusting display by many US nationals on here, who are also very quick to label equitable treatment of people "commie" or leftwing and to belittle patriots who support the US Constitution as libtards.

 

Thankfully, there are still some rational members of the Republican party and  senators who will take action against the Russians. It's a crisis of national security.

Re. the emboldened part (my emboldening) - the problem is that many of us believe that all countries do their best to hack each other, and that the US is far from the bottom of the list in this respect.

 

Additionally,  I suspect that most doubt that Russia's hacking was the reason behind Trump being elected.

 

As for this 'spat' - it reminds me of school kids.....  We've seen it before (countries kicking diplomats/spies out of each others' countries) when they have a tantrum.  Seems a bit stupid to me as surely its better to know who and where are your enemies, rather than have to work it all out again in the future?

Edited December 31, 2016 by metisdead
Emboldened part (my emboldening) has been removed as per forum rules.

[connda]

Patiently waiting for January 20th in hopes that the next administration will end this stupidity and normalize relationships around the globe instead of continuing to beat this dead horse. 

[JackThompson]

6 hours ago, boomerangutang said:

Russians also hacked Republican political computers.  Yet, because the Russkies wanted Trump to win, they only released data on the Dems, not data from Reps.  In sum:  Russian state operatives tangibly helped Trump win.

 

The FBI told the RNC that their systems were not hacked.  The FBI also disagrees with some CIA claims about Russian hacking extent and intentions.  And often not discussed, some Republican accounts were hacked, and the data put out on DC-Leaks, but it was boring. 

 

Note that the most damning data released on the Dems was from Podesta's emails, achieved from a simple phishing operation - and he was foolish enough to click on the link and type in his password - hardly an attack requiring "state intel" capabilities.

 

Note that the Republicans supporting Obama's actions are the same ones who tried to work out a "shamnesty" for millions of illegal aliens (McCain and Graham), and of those, McCain was an active supporter of Al-Bagdadi and other terrorists in Syria (they even posed for selfies together), whom Russia helped stop.

 

There is a battle going on between factions in the US-Intel community - some wanting to restart the cold war, others wanting to pivot to working with the non-communist Russians and focus on the real threat, China.

[JackThompson]

6 hours ago, simple1 said:

From the OP...

"A total of 35 Russian intelligence operatives based at the Russian embassy in Washington and the consulate in San Francisco have been declared “persona non grata” and ordered to leave the country within 72 hours."

 

What has been overlooked by many responding to the OP is US diplomats have been harassed extensively during the past year in Moscow The removal orders are not just related to the hacking incidents, but also a considered foreign relations response to abuse of diplomatic staff in Russia.

 

Yes, there has been more monitoring of US-Diplomats in Russia, in response to active cooperation between "opposition" political parties and activists with US-Diplomats - documented here:

 

www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9FfX0B8ujA

[KenKadz]

A knee jerk reaction without concrete evidence!

Neither Obama or the U.S. Intelligence Community have been able to prove their accusations. Furthermore Julian Assange has said publicly that Russia was not the source of the emails on Wikileaks. Who do you trust?

[Honthy]

1 hour ago, smotherb said:

Hacking to gather intelligence is one thing; disseminating what you have gathered with intent to persuade is another,

Hacking is not just a hobby. It always has intention. If the stolen data are used now, or later, go to public or not are just question of interests. Do not be sure, that the gathered information from the other side and their own people will be well closed to a never opened drawer.  Sooner or later they will be gear of persuasion.

Cardinal Richelieu said: If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him. 

 

[smotherb]

Just now, Honthy said:

Hacking is not just a hobby. It always has intention. If the stolen data are used now, or later, go to public or not are just question of interests. Do not be sure, that the gathered information from the other side and their own people will be well closed to a never opened drawer.  Sooner or later they will be gear of persuasion.

Cardinal Richelieu said: If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him. 

 

Intelligence gathering, whether it be hacking or physical observance, is done by all governments and most other competitive entities. Whether you see a difference between gathering and dissemination is not the point; the point is the Russians were caught in their covert attempts to influence internal US affairs and sanctions were rightly placed against them.

[Honthy]

1 minute ago, smotherb said:

Intelligence gathering, whether it be hacking or physical observance, is done by all governments and most other competitive entities. Whether you see a difference between gathering and dissemination is not the point; the point is the Russians were caught in their covert attempts to influence internal US affairs and sanctions were rightly placed against them.

 

As you know, some of the diplomats delegated to other countries are spies in reality. Everybody knows, the governments know how many spies were delegated from that country. They can work without any major problem, they enjoy their diplomat status. When they have to show power, they stand up the stage saying what terrible action has happened. When it is needed the parties apply reciprocity. I would not be shocked  if Putin said: Oh, yes. How many of us were fired from you? 

Well, we have found a breathtaking spying scandal. So we have to send some American diplomats back immediately.  And the number of these diplomats will be exactly the same 

[smotherb]

3 minutes ago, Honthy said:

As you know, some of the diplomats delegated to other countries are spies in reality. Everybody knows, the governments know how many spies were delegated from that country. They can work without any major problem, they enjoy their diplomat status. When they have to show power, they stand up the stage saying what terrible action has happened. When it is needed the parties apply reciprocity. I would not be shocked  if Putin said: Oh, yes. How many of us were fired from you? 

Well, we have found a breathtaking spying scandal. So we have to send some American diplomats back immediately.  And the number of these diplomats will be exactly the same 

I have no intention of arguing with a duck. The US has exercised its right to apply sanctions. I suggest you get over it. Enough said.

[Honthy]

1 minute ago, smotherb said:

I have no intention of arguing with a duck. The US has exercised its right to apply sanctions. I suggest you get over it. Enough said.

Thanks, actually I am not a duck. Otherwise, wait a bit, you will see .... 5555

[WaywardWind]

56 minutes ago, KenKadz said:

A knee jerk reaction without concrete evidence!

Neither Obama or the U.S. Intelligence Community have been able to prove their accusations. Furthermore Julian Assange has said publicly that Russia was not the source of the emails on Wikileaks. Who do you trust?

The FBI and the Department of Homeland Security yesterday released a joint report which details the Russian hacking operation. I am certain that there is more information, but this report is limited to information which has been analyzed and declassified.

https://www.us-cert.gov/sites/default/files/publications/JAR_16-20296A_GRIZZLY STEPPE-2016-1229.pdf

 

It was widely disseminated through the media.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/12/29/us/politics/document-Report-on-Russian-Hacking.html?_r=0

 

Trust Julian Assange? Surely you jest...

[craigt3365]

2 hours ago, Kasset Tak said:

NSA and CIA basically has one directiv, to gather information about other countries and people of interest, people like the German prime minister and the French president. The difference is that US don't want the information they get to get out publicly... Unless it will be in the interest of US.

And basically US complaining that Russia are meddling is hypocrisy as US has been meddling in most countries internal affairs, elections and so on sins the end of WWII.

All countries gather intelligence.  Again, the US doesn't put that data on the internet.  And has not done this to Russia.  So tit for tat.  Time for the US to do the same. 

[dick dasterdly]

4 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

All countries gather intelligence.  Again, the US doesn't put that data on the internet.  And has not done this to Russia.  So tit for tat.  Time for the US to do the same. 

Let's all hope so!  But I suspect that Russia will just expel a few US 'diplomats', which is a bit boring .

 

On the other hand, there's always the possibility that they won't do so as they see Trump as an ally - which would be slightly less boring.  I say slightly less, as its all politics.....

[craigt3365]

1 hour ago, connda said:

Patiently waiting for January 20th in hopes that the next administration will end this stupidity and normalize relationships around the globe instead of continuing to beat this dead horse. 

That's a 2 way street.  Russia has been very aggressive lately.  No denying that.

 

Worth reading.  Could be some interesting times coming up in Europe:

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/19/opinion/russian-meddling-and-europes-elections.html?emc=edit_ae_20161219&nl=todaysheadlines-asia&nlid=58582962

 

Quote

 

While revelations about Russian involvement in the American presidential election rock the United States, there are ominous signs that Russia is spreading propaganda and engaging in cyberattacks in Europe in advance of several national elections next year.

.........

There is strong evidence that Russia played a role in the defeat of the Italian referendum, as well as in the Brexit vote in June and a Dutch referendum in April in which voters rejected a treaty to strengthen ties between the European Union and Ukraine.

 

 

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/12/16/politics/russia-hacking-allegations-mikheil-saakashvili/index.html

 

Quote

Ex-Soviet states tell US 'I told you so' over Russia hacking allegations

 

Again, I'm amazed so many here don't care about this.

[craigt3365]

1 hour ago, JackThompson said:

 

The FBI told the RNC that their systems were not hacked.  The FBI also disagrees with some CIA claims about Russian hacking extent and intentions.  And often not discussed, some Republican accounts were hacked, and the data put out on DC-Leaks, but it was boring. 

 

Note that the most damning data released on the Dems was from Podesta's emails, achieved from a simple phishing operation - and he was foolish enough to click on the link and type in his password - hardly an attack requiring "state intel" capabilities.

 

Note that the Republicans supporting Obama's actions are the same ones who tried to work out a "shamnesty" for millions of illegal aliens (McCain and Graham), and of those, McCain was an active supporter of Al-Bagdadi and other terrorists in Syria (they even posed for selfies together), whom Russia helped stop.

 

There is a battle going on between factions in the US-Intel community - some wanting to restart the cold war, others wanting to pivot to working with the non-communist Russians and focus on the real threat, China.

The FBI and CIA, along with many other intelligence agencies and private companies, agree Russia hacked the systems.  What they don't agree on is why.  Was it to influence the elections or not.  The FBI needs to prove this in a court of law, the CIA doesn't have to. 

 

China is definitely a threat and has hacked into many computer servers in the US.  Time to fight back.

[Opl]

“there is no such thing as a former KGB man” (Putin) According to the Russian daily Kommersant, a major new reshuffle of Russia’s security agencies is under way that will unite the FSB (the main successor agency to the KGB) with Russia’s foreign intelligence service into a new super-agency called the Ministry of State Security .. at its core, the reshuffle marks Putin’s asserting his own personal authority over Russia’s security apparatus."

 

http://www.politico.eu/article/vladimir-putin-resurrects-the-kgb-moscow-security/

 

French newspaper Le Monde reported on Wednesday that an unnamed Western intelligence agency believes Russian hacker group APT28 - which is also known as Fancy Bear, Pawn Storm or Sofacy Group - to be behind the OSCE attack.

The same source told Le Monde that APT28, which is believed to have connections to the Russian intelligence services, carried out cyber attacks on the Democratic National Committee during this year's presidential campaign in the United States.

http://www.dw.com/en/osce-targeted-by-cyber-attackers/a-36934962

Edited December 30, 2016 by Opl

[dick dasterdly]

13 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

That's a 2 way street.  Russia has been very aggressive lately.  No denying that.

 

Worth reading.  Could be some interesting times coming up in Europe:

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/19/opinion/russian-meddling-and-europes-elections.html?emc=edit_ae_20161219&nl=todaysheadlines-asia&nlid=58582962

 

 

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/12/16/politics/russia-hacking-allegations-mikheil-saakashvili/index.html

 

 

Again, I'm amazed so many here don't care about this.

Re. Russia being very aggressive lately - so has the US, as per this thread.

 

But Russia influencing European elections??  I doubt it as I'm pretty sure that (segments of) the electorate are just pretty fed up with their politicians.

 

Hence the 'unlikely' votes.  Of course you are free to interpret this as Russian influence, but the vast majority (IMO) realise this has nothing to do with Russia, and everything to do with unhappiness amongst the populace as to the way things are going.

Edited December 30, 2016 by dick dasterdly

[craigt3365]

Just now, dick dasterdly said:

Re. Russia being very aggressive lately - so has the US, as per this thread.

 

But Russia influencing European elections??  I doubt it as I'm pretty sure that the electorate are just pretty fed up with their politicians.

 

Hence the 'unlikely' votes.  Of course you are free to interpret this as Russian influence, but the vast majority (IMO) realise this has nothing to do with Russia, and everything to do with unhappiness amongst the populace as to the way things are going.

Where has the US been aggressive?  At this level and scale? 

 

Merkel apparently doesn't agree with your comments about German elections.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/nov/08/russian-cyber-attacks-could-influence-german-election-says-merkel

 

Quote

 

Russian cyber-attacks could influence German election, says Merkel

Chancellor says Germany having to deal with cyber-attacks and disinformation campaigns on daily basis

 

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38288181

Quote

 

Russia was blamed for a cyberattack on the German parliament last year.

 

An unnamed German security official said it was "highly likely" that secret files published by Wikileaks two weeks ago originated from that cyberattack.

 

The files - dating from early 2014 to January 2015 - came from the parliamentary lower house (Bundestag) committee investigating US National Security Agency (NSA) spying on German politicians.

 

 

This problem isn't isolated to the US.

[IMA_FARANG]

Hacking has been going on for years.

Alrhough I retired in 2010, I could tell you stories, if they  ever let me, of diplomats, foriegn military officers, and even "friends" and allies who have been caught reading classified U.S. documents they shouldn't have had,

But I can't tell you those things or I night go to jail.

And yes it also works the other way around also.

Don't be silly, yes Gentlemen do read others peoples's mail.

Tha't's why the NSA has the notto of......... "Trust, but verify"

[dick dasterdly]

11 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

Where has the US been aggressive?  At this level and scale? 

 

Merkel apparently doesn't agree with your comments about German elections.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/nov/08/russian-cyber-attacks-could-influence-german-election-says-merkel

 

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38288181

 

This problem isn't isolated to the US.

Yes, if Merkel loses the election it will all be down to Russian interference - nothing to do with the policies she has pursued.

 

As for your first sentence - I say again, it reminds me of children's games as throwing out foreign diplomats/spies is the normal game played between governments.  And yes, in this case the US has been aggressive by being the first to play this game.

 

Unless of course you believe that the US is guilt-free when it comes to hacking and that Russia influenced the election......

Edited December 30, 2016 by dick dasterdly

[craigt3365]

21 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Yes, if Merkel loses the election it will all be down to Russian interference - nothing to do with the policies she has pursued.

 

As for your first sentence - I say again, it reminds me of children's games as throwing out foreign diplomats/spies is the normal game played between governments.  And yes, in this case the US has been aggressive by being the first to play this game.

 

Unless of course you believe that the US is guilt-free when it comes to hacking and that Russia influenced the election......

I don't believe Merkel is saying she'll lose because of Russian Hacking.  She's saying it is already happening and the government needs to deal with it.  Makes sense.  It's called national security.

 

First to play this game?  When?  Where?   Not sure what you are referencing.

 

You didn't answer my question before.  Where was the US aggressive?  Similar context.

[Puccini]

I wonder if Trump knows that his email accounts have also been hacked by the Russians.

[car720]

9 hours ago, craigt3365 said:

If your country's computers were hacked, data made public, and potentially impacted your election process, would you just say "get over it"?  I doubt it.

 

Oh God.  Please tell me that the Russians will do it to Australia next.
If ever there were a mob that needed doing in then they are they.  

[Kiwiken]

And Trump will repay Putin's kindness. The US people will all learn Russian and the Country renamed. Amerika

[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, craigt3365 said:

The FBI and CIA, along with many other intelligence agencies and private companies, agree Russia hacked the systems.  What they don't agree on is why.  Was it to influence the elections or not.  The FBI needs to prove this in a court of law, the CIA doesn't have to. 

 

China is definitely a threat and has hacked into many computer servers in the US.  Time to fight back.

 

Not sure if "fight back" is the appropriate term, given ongoing US hacking efforts.  I am not, however, advocating a unilateral stand-down, either.  Whether expelling diplomats is the appropriate response, or just a hollow face-saving effort - ongoing in a series of excuses to try to discredit/explain the last election - is another question. 

 

Trump was the first presidential candidate since the 80s to say, "We will bring back jobs" instead of the bi-partisan mantra of "Your jobs are gone, 'forgetaboutem'."  I believe his twin policies on immigration and trade - reversing the anti-American, bi-partisan-consensus policies in place - which are the core-reasons for increasing US-poverty - were the reason he won.