German Nationales & Schengen Visa - moving to Germany

[Angus123]

Hello,

 

I am British and will marry my wife in Thailand in January. I live in Germany and we will move there after the wedding. I would like to know what is the best and quickest way for my wife to move to Germany after the wedding?Can she apply for a Schengen and Nationales visa at the same time at the German embassy, and travel to Germany on the Schengen visa whilst waiting for the all clear with the national visa? If yes, would she need to return to Thailand to collect the Nationales visa? Or can she apply for the Schengen visa, travel to Germany abd then apply for the nationales visa whilst in Germany?

 

Also can anyone recommend a good place to get documents legally translated in Bangkok from Thai & English into German quickly?

 

Best regards,

 

Angus

[Donutz]

As she will be a family member of an EU/EEA national traveling to an other EU/EEA country the Freedom of Movement Directive 2004/38 applies. She will only need one visa: she can either get a type C (short stay) and upon arrival apply for residency. Or she could apply for a type D (national visa for the purpose of immigration) and thus start the procedure from Thailand. 

 

The atvantage of the type C visa would be that she can move to Germany quickly, the visa would need to be issued ASAP and with minimum hassle and documents (maritial papers and usually legalisation stamps and a notarized translation into a language that the Germans can understand, her ID, copy of your ID, some sort of indication that she will join you such as a letter from you stating such). Upon arrival you could apply for residency (register with the townhall, apply for a residency card) though some officials may wrongfully say that immigration procedures need to be started from outside Germany.

 

With a D visa you would start the immigration procedure from Thailand and wait for that to finish before traveling to Germany, Finishing this procedure would take a bit longer (and I suspect even more so with the immigration services being rather busy) but you  won't run into German officials claiming that despite freedom of movement one cannot start immigration on a type C visa (they would be wrong). 

 

I'm unfamiliar with the steps to be taken in Germany, but it would be best to reqs up on those in advance on what to do at the townhall and auslanderbehorde (immigration office) to apply for her Aufenthaltskarte Freizugigkeit (residency card) etc. Personally I'd get the C visa unless you don't plan to move to Germany within a few weeks of your marriage.

Would be best to arrange a place to live in advance if possible. 

 

Don't know about translations. english should go a long way aslong as the documents are all legalized but perhaps some German officials insist on German translations.

Edited January 6, 2017 by Donutz

[Angus123]

Thanks for the info, Donutz. I had been trying to speak to someone at the German embassy in Bangkok all week and finally managed to do so after i posted my message. They recommended that I apply for the Nationales Visa and then the Schengen visa at the same time. I was told that my future wife could join me in Germany on the Schengen visa whilst the Nationales visa was being processed. 

[Donutz]

A Dutch forum that i frequently visit has a more extensive guide on Germany, it basically explains that you as EU national and non-EI national move to Germany , arrange a place to live, get your income sorted out so that there is sufficient income to live on, arrange insurance, the residency document etc. etc. 

 

Townhall:  urgerburo/burgerservice/rathau to register your place to live.  They generally ask for passports, marriage certificate, papers of the EU national confirming one is no longer registrated in the EU citizens home country (technically not required), documents that show your German adress such as a rental contract and a valid visa for the foreigner (technically not required). Some also insist on birthcertificates. 

 

Immigration office: each Kreis (region) has a Auslanderbehorde to get the  aufenthaltskarte Freizugigkeit/EU  (EU residency card). They generally ask for passports,  evidence of income/employement (sufficient income), marriage papers, evidenc of living with the EU partner 

 

All non-German docs needs to be translated and legalized. About legalisation:

http://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/EN/Laenderinformationen/01-Laender/Konsularisches/UrkundenverkehrTeilB_node.html

[Donutz]

2 hours ago, Angus123 said:

Thanks for the info, Donutz. I had been trying to speak to someone at the German embassy in Bangkok all week and finally managed to do so after i posted my message. They recommended that I apply for the Nationales Visa and then the Schengen visa at the same time. I was told that my future wife could join me in Germany on the Schengen visa whilst the Nationales visa was being processed. 

How exactly does that proposed approach work? Sounds silly. As generally if you start the immigration procedure from abroad you are expected to await the result from abroad and travel in a D visa. Where as with a C visa you could directly move to Germany, start and await the procedure from there.  After arrival you'd go to the immigration office and apply for a residency card (marriage certificate, legalisation and English translation would be perfectly fine for this) and seperatly also register in your new town (who may ask for a birthcertificate, legalized etc. but they could demand to be in German, ask you to show where you live etc.). This would be the most common approach. 

 

So what would the route proposed by the embassy be? The same except for handing in the paperwork for residency permit at the embassy (and fly to Germany the next day) instead of flying directly to Germany and hand the papers in at the the Auslanderbehorde? The difference would be minimal. Or do they have something else in mind? If you like there answer you can ofcourse do as they suggest but be sure to make a general plan of which steps to take when it comes to registrating in your new town, applying for a residency card, sorting out a place to live, work, getting health insurance etc.

Edited January 6, 2017 by Donutz
Grammar

[mgb]

It makes no sense to apply for a national visa.
A family member of a eu citizen is simply not subject to the national german immigration law.
Normally a visa for the family member of eu citizen has to be applied. Such a visa is being issued as schengen visa with the text "family member of a eu citizen/EEA citizen" in german in the remarks section.

[Angus123]

I was told by the embassy directly that she would not be able to travel to Germany on a Schengen visa and apply for a Nationales Visum in Germany.  She would need to apply for the Nationales Visum at the German embassy in Bangkok. 

 

I can not see there being any difference in applying for the nationales visium in Germany or in Bangkok. The process will still take 2 - 3 months apparently whereas the Schengen Visium around 5 days (she has been granted the Schengen Visa already a few times in the past to visit me). 

 

Edited January 6, 2017 by Angus123
c

[mgb]

She don't need a national visa.
She is subject to the Freizügigkeitsgesetz/EU (german implementation of the EU directive 2004/38) as a family member of a eu citizen in Germany and not to the Aufenthaltsgesetz (national german immigration law). 

[Donutz]

1 hour ago, Angus123 said:

I was told by the embassy directly that she would not be able to travel to Germany on a Schengen visa and apply for a Nationales Visum in Germany.  She would need to apply for the Nationales Visum at the German embassy in Bangkok. 

 

I can not see there being any difference in applying for the nationales visium in Germany or in Bangkok. The process will still take 2 - 3 months apparently whereas the Schengen Visium around 5 days (she has been granted the Schengen Visa already a few times in the past to visit me). 

 

That's incorrect, as the spouse of an EU/EEA national covered by Directive 2004/38 one can perfectly travel on a type C visum and apply for residency in Germany (going to the auslanderbehorde to apply for her Aufenthaltskarte Freizugigkeit).

 

If you'd apply via the embassy they'd expect you to await the procedure -taking a few months- from Thailand (and the embassy would need to make sure they follow the proper simplified EU/EEA freedom of movement  procedure as MGB also explained in the post below yours). And if somehow the Germans would forward the application and give her a visa on the spot to travel to Germany there would be little point to that (see my post #5).

 

But it's most likely a misunderstanding and the German embassy means to say that if you apply via BKK they'd simply wait for the procedure to be completed before issueing her a type D visa. This could take months. Which is fine if you don't plan to move to Germany in January-February. But if you rather jump on a plane this month, use the type C visa (issued for free, with minimum hassle etc.).

 

45 minutes ago, mgb said:

She don't need a national visa.
She is subject to the Freizügigkeitsgesetz/EU (german implementation of the EU directive 2004/38) as a family member of a eu citizen in Germany and not to the Aufenthaltsgesetz (national german immigration law). 

Indeed.

[Angus123]

Thanks for your responses. I will call them again and see if there is a misunderstanding.

 

This is the response (in German) that I got earlier today from the German embassy. 

 

"es ist nicht möglich, mit einem Schengenvisum in Deutschland einzureisen und dort ein nationales Visum zu beantragen. Das nationale Visum muss Ihre Partnerin an der Botschaft in Bangkok beantragen."

[Donutz]

32 minutes ago, Angus123 said:

Thanks for your responses. I will call them again and see if there is a misunderstanding.

 

This is the response (in German) that I got earlier today from the German embassy. 

 

"es ist nicht möglich, mit einem Schengenvisum in Deutschland einzureisen und dort ein nationales Visum zu beantragen. Das nationale Visum muss Ihre Partnerin an der Botschaft in Bangkok beantragen."

Translation: "It is not possible, with a Schengenvisum to travel to Germany and to apply for a national visa* there. Your female partner needs to apply for the national visa via the embassy."

 

*Visa? Err... Ofcourse she won't ask for a visa when she is in Germany (having entered on a type C visa), she will ask for a residency card. And not a standard residency card but an EU/EEA family member type. And if she'd wish to start the procedure from Thailand instead, then she'd wait for the EU/EEA family member procedure to be completed and not a national visa (with language test, fees and some other requirements, which all do not apply to you/her).

 

-----

 

It's not uncommon for EU embassies to insist that immigrants with a visa requirement need to apply from their country of residence and await the prodecure. That's common practise for most European countries when it comes to regular immigration law. However for those covered by Directove 2004/38 this is not the case, they do not fall under the general immigration law. And nowhere does Directive 2004/38 instruct that non-EU family would need a (D or even C) type of visa before moving to a member state.

 

You can find the Directive here (available in all EU languages, if you change 'en' near the end of the URL to 'de' DEUTSCH you will get the German version):

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2004:158:0077:0123:en:PDF

 

And a bit of And this handbook (available on the EU Home Affairs website) for embassy staff on type C visa's, Part III (page 81) is about visas issued under D 2004/38:

https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/sites/homeaffairs/files/policies/borders/docs/c_2010_1620_en.pdf

 

As you will see, no requirement what so ever on carrying a certain type of visa in order to apply for residence under the Directive. If your wife and you would step in a luftballon (hot air baloon) and parachute down when you reach the Auslanderbehorde with an official marriage certificate, MFA and embassy stamps and a legalized translation and both of your passports she could apply for a aufenthaltskarte Freizugigkeit/EU. Then heading to the local townhall they might also ask for her birthcertificate (with MFAand embassy  legalsiation stamps and this time only translated in German and with legalisation) and where she will live etc. No need to wait in Thailand unless that approach suits you aswell.

 

Thus leaving two options:

1- Apply for a C visa (at the German embassy or whatever your main destination is), get it within days, travel on type C visa to any Schengen member state, travel to Germany directly or via any other member state, go to the Auslanderbehorde to start the residency procedure, to the townhall etc..

2- Start the procedure for a D visa via the embassy and await this to complete, may take a few months, then travel to Germany, go to the townhall etc. 

Edited January 6, 2017 by Donutz

[Angus123]

Thanks, Donutz. Looks like option 1 is the best and easiest option. 

[Donutz]

Where are my manners? Didn't even congratulate you on your upcomming marriage. bad Dutchman, bad. 555

Congratulations mate!

 

Speaking of German(y) and marriage, my dearly beloved late wife loved to shout NEIN if we played Du Hast:

Quote

Willst du bis der Tod euch scheidet
treu ihr sein für alle Tage?

Nein

Willst du bis zum Tod, der scheide
sie lieben auch in schlechten Tagen?

Nein

 

-----

 

Do you want, until death seperates you,
to be faithful to her for all days?

No

Do you want, until death, which would seperate,
to love her, even in bad days?

No
 

Then again she was a bit baaaa (like me), being 3 years my senior and me in my 20's, she'd also tell me Rak Na Dek Ngo (a song by the Thai band Pink). <3

 

But for a bit more serious a contribution, here may be some useful previous topics on this subject:

- http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/938224-uk-citizen-living-in-germany-and-marrying-a-thai/#comment-11059440

- http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/956930-shengen-visa-waiver/#comment-11395050-

 

 

- http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/948125-validating-a-thai-marriage-certificate/#comment-11236747

- http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/926041-spanish-long-term-visa-thai-wife/#comment-10873344

- (and staff do make errors: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/901953-german-schengen-visa-required-info-for-letter-of-invitation/#comment-10515432 )

- ....

 

Edited January 6, 2017 by Donutz
Rak na Dek ngo

[Angus123]

Ha! Cheers, Donutz! Thanks for your help!

[Angus123]

Quick question............. once I have the marriage certificate, do I just need to get it translated into English and authorized at the Thai ministry of foreign affairs, and give the authorized English version to my wife along with the original Thai version, for it to be accepted at the German Embassy for a type C / schengen visa? 

[Donutz]

As any genuine, not fraudelent, evidence of a legal marriage should be accepted:

yes to get the Schengen visa under freedom of movement a Thai marriage certificate plus translation into English (or any other language that the Germans can understand), plus legalisation of both by the Thai MFA should be sufficient.

 

Now when it comes to moving to Germany, the authorities there may or may not (and I have no experience at all dealing with the German authorities and Freizugigkeit) :

- wish to see legalisation from the (German) embassy in Thailand of the marriage papers.

- The local townhall in Germany may insist in a birthcertificate (they shouldn't) and wish that to be translated in German (may accept English), also legalized. Would be best to inquire with the town where you want to live and ask what they would like to see and if you find their answer reasonable.

[mgb]

I guess the demand for a birth certificate is a misunderstanding.
If you register your address/residence in Germany at the town hall you need either Passport/ID-card or a birth certificate.

[Angus123]

Unbelievably the German embassy refused to grant my wife a Schengen visa despite them verbally agreeing to a Schengen visa for 70 days. This was only after having to escalate the case whilst at the embassy as they wanted her to get the Nationales Visa. I told them that we wanted the Schengen visa and would then apply for residency whilst in Germany. All marriage documents were fine.  The reason for the rejection was that the aim of the trip was not believable! Any advice on how to escalate this? 

[beano2274]

it is correct that whilst in Germany she cannot apply for a National Visa. Here is how I did it with my wife:

 

I moved to Germany, my wife applied for a Schengen Visa (married to EU national), I registered myself in the local Bürgerburo, also ensured that it was noted I was using my Freedom of Movement, wife arrived in Germany, went to the Bürgerburo and registered her first, then went to the KVR in Münich, applied for an Aufenthaltskarte (had to supply Marriage Certificate, passports, proof of me working in Germany, registration at Bürgerburo and Health Insurance card) all was checked and fingerprints taken at the time, paid for on that day, a week later the card arrived in the post.

 

We also tried for a National Visa for my mother in law, but this was refused due to the fact that she does not rely on us to give her money, she got a Schengen Visa. Did they ask for the "verpflichtsungserklarung" from you?

[Donutz]

6 hours ago, Angus123 said:

Unbelievably the German embassy refused to grant my wife a Schengen visa despite them verbally agreeing to a Schengen visa for 70 days. This was only after having to escalate the case whilst at the embassy as they wanted her to get the Nationales Visa. I told them that we wanted the Schengen visa and would then apply for residency whilst in Germany. All marriage documents were fine.  The reason for the rejection was that the aim of the trip was not believable! Any advice on how to escalate this? 

That (reasons for travel, reasons for return etc ) is something they cannot test on. They are in error , they cannot deny her the visa (if indeed you showed that she is your Spouse, you are a Briton or any other EEA national except German and the two of you are heading to Germany).

 

One mistake you made though is telling them you wish to immigrate. That is perfectly legal on a C visa (and apply for residency when you are in Germany) but the Germans will wrongfully insist on a D visa because incompetent officials will think that immigration applications can only be started from outside of Germany. But this does not apply for those under Directive 2004/38.

 

Best would have been not to mention applying for residency at all. She would have gotten her visa if she could have showed a letter by you that she would join you on the trip. If asked where, how long etc you two would travel she could politely told them that such a question is irrelevant for her type of application but that she doesn't know either since you will take care of it all (and you may not have a concrete plan either, and it would have been none of their business).

 

Best now would be to appeal or ask an other free visa.  Point to the directive and they will see there is no ground on which to deny the visa as there is no obligation to show reasons for return etc. That and contact the Solving and write to the European home affairs. 

 

Edit: see these topics for some useful posts and links:

 

- 

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/961389-schengen-visa/?page=2

 

 

- http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/956930-shengen-visa-waiver/?page=2

Edited January 23, 2017 by Donutz

[Donutz]

And perhaps a formal appeal or new application (both are entirely free).may not be needed if you can make the embassy realise their error with the information the two topics I linked to. Especially pointing out what is required (and the Germans were pleased with all that it seems) and what is not (reason for travel, need to return etc).

 

As the handbook explains:

----------------------

3.7. Burden of proof

The burden of proof applicable in the framework of the visa application under the Directive is

twofold:

Firstly, it is up to the visa applicant to prove that he is a beneficiary of the Directive. He must

be able to provide documentary evidence foreseen above as he must be able to present

evidence to support his claim.

If he fails to provide such evidence, the consulate can conclude that the applicant is not

entitled to the specific treatment under the Directive.

Additional documents may not be required regarding the purpose of travel and means of

subsistence (e.g. proof of accommodation, proof of cost of travelling), which is reflected in

the exemption for family members of EU citizens from filling in the following fields of the

visa application form:

Field 19: "current occupation";

Field 20:"employer and employer's address and telephone number. For students, name and

address of educational establishment";

Field 31: "surname and first name of the inviting person(s) in the Member State(s). If not

applicable, name of hotel(s) or temporary accommodation(s) in the Member State(s);

Field 32: "Name and address of inviting company/organisation";

Field 33: "Cost of travelling and living during the applicant's stay".

 

A Member State may require that the relevant documents are translated, notarised or legalised

where the original document is drawn up in a language that is not understood by the

authorities of the Member State concerned or if there are doubts as to the authenticity of the

document

---------------------

[Angus123]

Thanks for the tips and advice. I will appeal and let you know how the case goes. 

[Angus123]

12 hours ago, beano2274 said:

it is correct that whilst in Germany she cannot apply for a National Visa. Here is how I did it with my wife:

 

I moved to Germany, my wife applied for a Schengen Visa (married to EU national), I registered myself in the local Bürgerburo, also ensured that it was noted I was using my Freedom of Movement, wife arrived in Germany, went to the Bürgerburo and registered her first, then went to the KVR in Münich, applied for an Aufenthaltskarte (had to supply Marriage Certificate, passports, proof of me working in Germany, registration at Bürgerburo and Health Insurance card) all was checked and fingerprints taken at the time, paid for on that day, a week later the card arrived in the post.

 

We also tried for a National Visa for my mother in law, but this was refused due to the fact that she does not rely on us to give her money, she got a Schengen Visa. Did they ask for the "verpflichtsungserklarung" from you?

No, they did not ask for the Verpflichtungserklarung from me. 

[mgb]

Refer to "Allgemeine Verwaltungsvorschrift zum Freizügigkeitsgesetz/EU" paragraph 2.5.1

The content in short:
The first 3 month are unconditional and can be used as preparation for a longer stay.

 

You can additionally point out that a family member of a eu citizen is not subject to the Aufenthaltsgesetz.

 

 

Edited January 24, 2017 by mgb

[Angus123]

I wrote to the embassy and asked them to look into it for me and pointed to the Directive 2004/38. 

 

They are still pushing back and wanting me to apply for the nationales Visum. 

 

There response (below) is basically saying that because we plan to apply for residency that we need to get a Nationales Visum (D Visa) and that my wife is not allowed a Schengen Visa.  

 

"Da Ihre Ehefrau bei Antragstellung bereits einen nachweisbaren längerfristigen Aufenthaltszweck i.S.d. § 2 Abs. 2 FreizügG/EU anstrebte, richtet sich die Visumbearbeitung nach den hierfür geltenden besonderen Voraussetzungen. In diesem Fall ist ein nationales Visum (D-Visum) für den Ehegattennachzug zu beantragen (§ 2 Abs. 4 S. 2 FreizügG/EU). Die Erteilung eines Schengen-Visums ist nicht möglich, da Ihre Ehefrau einen Daueraufenthalt in Deutschland aufnehmen möchte."

 

Any advice?

[mgb]

Point to Allgemeine Verwaltungsvorschrift zum Freizügigkeitsgesetz/EU .

Paragraph 2.4.2.1
Die Verweisung des § 2 Absatz 4 Satz 2 bezieht sich ausschließlich auf die Regelung der Visumpflichtigkeit.

Paragraph 2.4.4
Im Rahmen der örtlichen Gegebenheiten sind ihre Anträge unverzüglich anzunehmen, zu bearbeiten und zu entscheiden.
Ein Zustimmungsverfahren nach § 31 AufenthV findet nicht statt.

 

The sentence from Paragraph 2.4.2.1 means the Aufenthaltsgesetz is only applicable for the question if a visa is needed or not. More is not allowed.

Paragraph 2.4.4 means the visa application has to be processed immediately. Asking the foreigner office in Germany is not allowed. 

[Angus123]

Thanks, mgb. Really appreciate all the help.

 

 

[bogus1965]

On 1/23/2017 at 7:23 PM, beano2274 said:

it is correct that whilst in Germany she cannot apply for a National Visa. Here is how I did it with my wife:

 

I moved to Germany, my wife applied for a Schengen Visa (married to EU national), I registered myself in the local Bürgerburo, also ensured that it was noted I was using my Freedom of Movement, wife arrived in Germany, went to the Bürgerburo and registered her first, then went to the KVR in Münich, applied for an Aufenthaltskarte (had to supply Marriage Certificate, passports, proof of me working in Germany, registration at Bürgerburo and Health Insurance card) all was checked and fingerprints taken at the time, paid for on that day, a week later the card arrived in the post.

 

We also tried for a National Visa for my mother in law, but this was refused due to the fact that she does not rely on us to give her money, she got a Schengen Visa. Did they ask for the "verpflichtsungserklarung" from you?

This sounds promising. I would be interested to how long is it ago that you did it this way?

[beano2274]

On 5.2.2017 at 0:12 PM, bogus1965 said:

This sounds promising. I would be interested to how long is it ago that you did it this way?

was in August 2013

[beano2274]

I also tried in July 2016 for my Mother in Law but because she had no Health Insurance in Germany they would not allow it, she came on a Tourist visa, I registered her at the Bürgerbüro as well before trying for the Aufenthaltskarte.