Fish Farming - Large Pond/Lake Aeration Systems

[grollies]

Bozz, one very important safety point.

 

DO NOT try to swim in heavily aerated water.

 

You can't, you'll drown.

[BozZFX]

1 minute ago, grollies said:

Bozz, one very important safety point.

 

DO NOT try to swim in heavily aerated water.

 

You can't, you'll drown.

hahaha thx for the advice ^^

whirpool/spa ^^

[grollies]

3 minutes ago, BozZFX said:

hahaha thx for the advice ^^

whirpool/spa ^^

Only good when you sitting on the bottom of the tub 

[canuckamuck]

18 minutes ago, BozZFX said:

A fountain is just a water pump attached to a sprinkler system, it does quiet nothing to a large lake ^^ but visually beautiful,

but a timer attached to a aeration system is quite helpful for automatic on/off without interference ^^

 

I think you overestimate the amount of oxygen exchange that occurs with bubbling and misunderstand the benefits of other methods of aeration. I say this because you totally discount fountains, which do a magnificent job of capturing free oxygen.

 

Here is a brief note on Dissolved Oxygen from the  Fundamental of Environmental Measures site

Quote

Dissolved oxygen enters water through the air or as a plant byproduct. From the air, oxygen can slowly diffuse across the water’s surface from the surrounding atmosphere, or be mixed in quickly through aeration, whether natural or man-made ⁷. The aeration of water can be caused by wind (creating waves), rapids, waterfalls, ground water discharge or other forms of running water. Man-made causes of aeration vary from an aquarium air pump to a hand-turned waterwheel to a large dam.

The vast majority of oxygen entering a body of water comes from contact with the air at the surface. Bubbling does make some contact interaction with water, but it has been measured to be inefficient. However, the knock on advantage of bubbling is that it creates a lot of motion towards the surface and this gives a lot of opportunity for air to water exchange, More so than just the bubbles.  

But taking a volume of water atomizing it a dispersing it through the air in a fountain significantly increases the amount of air to water exchange, with the additional benefit of being able to direct the stream to create more current and also to strategically place the inlet to draw from the most oxygen starved regions. Yet another advantage is that the amount of water you can move with a water pump is much higher than what can be moved with bubbles with the same energy cost. 

[farmerjo]

What level of DO(ppm) is the OP looking for.

[farmerjo]

I don't know about water and fish farming(mine fend for themselves by trying not to overstock.

But have installed 96 percent oxygen purity plants around the world in the mining industry.

Oxygen from atmosphere is around 18 percent?

[BozZFX]

10 minutes ago, canuckamuck said:

 

I think you overestimate the amount of oxygen exchange that occurs with bubbling and misunderstand the benefits of other methods of aeration. I say this because you totally discount fountains, which do a magnificent job of capturing free oxygen.

 

Here is a brief note on Dissolved Oxygen from the  Fundamental of Environmental Measures site

The vast majority of oxygen entering a body of water comes from contact with the air at the surface. Bubbling does make some contact interaction with water, but it has been measured to be inefficient. However, the knock on advantage of bubbling is that it creates a lot of motion towards the surface and this gives a lot of opportunity for air to water exchange, More so than just the bubbles.  

But taking a volume of water atomizing it a dispersing it through the air in a fountain significantly increases the amount of air to water exchange, with the additional benefit of being able to direct the stream to create more current and also to strategically place the inlet to draw from the most oxygen starved regions. Yet another advantage is that the amount of water you can move with a water pump is much higher than what can be moved with bubbles with the same energy cost. 

 

Water Fountains has the same effect like those surface water paddles, they all aerate the water in a way.

but the question is how efficient and how much area they cover,

underground diffusers/bubblers aerate the water directly from the very bottom and pushes massive amounts of water to the top,

up to 250L/min just with Air (depends on the air compressor 1/4 - 1.5HP), i think no electric waterpump can do that without using lots of horsepower.

[BozZFX]

2 minutes ago, farmerjo said:

I don't know about water and fish farming(mine fend for themselves by trying not to overstock.

But have installed 96 percent oxygen purity plants around the world in the mining industry.

Oxygen from atmosphere is around 18 percent?

 

I dont know what level of DO PPM i need, but plenty for sure.

i think theres a calculator online for this.

[grollies]

26 minutes ago, farmerjo said:

I don't know about water and fish farming(mine fend for themselves by trying not to overstock.

But have installed 96 percent oxygen purity plants around the world in the mining industry.

Oxygen from atmosphere is around 18 percent?

er, 21%

[canuckamuck]

25 minutes ago, BozZFX said:

 

Water Fountains has the same effect like those surface water paddles, they all aerate the water in a way.

but the question is how efficient and how much area they cover,

underground diffusers/bubblers aerate the water directly from the very bottom and pushes massive amounts of water to the top,

up to 250L/min just with Air (depends on the air compressor 1/4 - 1.5HP), i think no electric waterpump can do that without using lots of horsepower.

Not disagreeing with you, but I would love to see some figures comparing the efficiency of moving water between air lift and a  water pump

I did find one graph that showed that moving 70 gallons per minute (similar to your 250 liter per minute) requires just .09Hp. Surely a 1/2 horse electric is going to do magnitudes more. And you are taking the water from the bottom and bringing it to the top, not just moving it around. Exactly like with the bubbles. 

[passedout]

Thanks BozZFX and grollies for the pond advice.

Cheers

[grollies]

1 hour ago, canuckamuck said:

 

I think you overestimate the amount of oxygen exchange that occurs with bubbling and misunderstand the benefits of other methods of aeration. I say this because you totally discount fountains, which do a magnificent job of capturing free oxygen.

 

Here is a brief note on Dissolved Oxygen from the  Fundamental of Environmental Measures site

The vast majority of oxygen entering a body of water comes from contact with the air at the surface. Bubbling does make some contact interaction with water, but it has been measured to be inefficient. However, the knock on advantage of bubbling is that it creates a lot of motion towards the surface and this gives a lot of opportunity for air to water exchange, More so than just the bubbles.  

But taking a volume of water atomizing it a dispersing it through the air in a fountain significantly increases the amount of air to water exchange, with the additional benefit of being able to direct the stream to create more current and also to strategically place the inlet to draw from the most oxygen starved regions. Yet another advantage is that the amount of water you can move with a water pump is much higher than what can be moved with bubbles with the same energy cost. 

The OP is looking for a system to help clear the muck from the bottom if his pond by providing microbes with oxygen to thrive.

 

Fountains will aerate, but only the top couple of feet and is very localised.

 

I still like the venturi idea () and am going to maybe give it a go when the wife stops coming up with other projects.

 

Coarse (>2mm bubbles) from paddles, fountains,are inefficient at oxygenation.

 

Fine bubbles from air compressors (or venturis  ) are much more efficient at providing DO in water.

 

IMHO

 

 

 

[canuckamuck]

With a fountain water droplets from the deep return to pond fully saturated with DO. With a bubbler bubbles wobble up to the top hardly interacting at all with the water. The only real benefit is the water movement created. A venturi moves water and introduces bubbles, its a blend of both. But don't be so enamored with the bubbles themselves, it is the volume of water that exchange with the atmosphere that is the critical component.

You may think that fountains are localized, but there is a consistent high volume entry of DO saturated water entering, and it has to go somewhere. Particularly when the intake is a good distance away.

 

Edited January 16, 2017 by canuckamuck

[ozzydom]

1 hour ago, BozZFX said:

 

100-200K fish excactly^^

but the problem is that i have a poultry farm over the pond that dumps a lot of chicken manure every day into the pond,

its good natural food for the fish but for the water its quite acid especially if you cant circulate/aerate the water.

last summer/dry season i've got thousands of fish kills because of water shortage and no aeration.

thats why i asked on the forum where to buy aeration systems in Thailand.

I'm Thai btw but speaks 3 languages.

At 10-20000 fish per rai I would have to say that you are not short on optomisim (sp)

We have been farming Pla Nin quite successfully for 12 years and despite having an adjacent Klong for regular  water exchange and 24 hour aeration we find that 1500 fish per rai is about the maximum carrying capacity (with safety)

By the way, our farm was awarded the Agricultural Dept best fish farm in our area last year.

[grollies]

11 minutes ago, canuckamuck said:

With a fountain water droplets from the deep return to pond fully saturated with DO. Bubbles wobble up to the top hardly interacting at all with the water. The only real benefit is the water movement created. A venturi moves water and introduces bubbles, its a blend of both. But don't be so enamored with the bubbles themselves, it is the volume of water that exchange with the atmosphere that is the critical component.

With the utmost respect, for producing DO, that is not correct.

 

It is during the production of fine bubbles, (<2mm dia), best via bottom diffusers, that produces the most O2.

 

Bubbles themselves during ascent to the water surface release little O2.

 

Boz is correct in his setup, I just think (oh, God), venturis are a lower maintenance, cheaper option.

[grollies]

I know Boz will laugh at this but I have made a (gulp) venturi aerator for my new fish pond. It's only 16m3 and the aerator is in the microbial filter setup.

 

I had a little trouble getting it to produce fine bubbles at the bottom of the filter but adjusting the venturi made it work eventually.

 

This is on a very low pressure (<0.7bar) supply. It uses only about 20% of the pump discharge flow, the rest going on circulation of water through the filter.

 

Great topic though Boz. I spent 25 years pumping water for a living and it still facintes me.

 

Cheers to @canuckamuck for making me research this further.

[grollies]

2 hours ago, Hutch68 said:

Forgive me for popping in on this one but surely a 10 rai pond should be able to take care of itself with thousands of fish in it.

Normally, yes. But if you're dropping 000's kg of chicken muck in it each year then no.

[Hutch68]

2 minutes ago, grollies said:

Normally, yes. But if you're dropping 000's kg of chicken muck in it each year then no.

Fair doos but he didn't say he was to start with did he?

[BozZFX]

33 minutes ago, ozzydom said:

At 10-20000 fish per rai I would have to say that you are not short on optomisim (sp)

We have been farming Pla Nin quite successfully for 12 years and despite having an adjacent Klong for regular  water exchange and 24 hour aeration we find that 1500 fish per rai is about the maximum carrying capacity (with safety)

By the way, our farm was awarded the Agricultural Dept best fish farm in our area last year.

 

Well my fishes are living in the pond for only 1 year before i sell them and clear the whole pond...

1 fish weights about 300-500g so around 2-4 fish per kilo... i dont grow 1+kg fishes because of water shortage in the dry season without aeration,

my main concept is poultry/egg farming over water with 10,000+ chickens,

the fishes in the pond below are a bonus that eats the chicken manure and later quality fish food before harvesting.

like i said i need proper aeration for my farm to reduce algae and toxic waste, and keep the water quality constant and clear.

happy farming!

[grollies]

7 minutes ago, Hutch68 said:

Fair doos but he didn't say he was to start with did he?

Nope, quite right and, in normal circumstances, fair comment.

[Hutch68]

3 minutes ago, BozZFX said:

 

Well my fishes are living in the pond for only 1 year before i sell them and clear the whole pond...

1 fish weights about 300-500g so around 2-4 fish per kilo... i dont grow 1+kg fishes because of water shortage in the dry season without aeration,

my main concept is poultry/egg farming over water with 10,000+ chickens,

the fishes in the pond below are a bonus that eats the chicken manure and later quality fish food before harvesting.

like i said i need proper aeration for my farm to reduce algae and toxic waste, and keep the water quality constant and clear.

happy farming!

Mate it may be a wise idea to listen to ozzydom.

[BozZFX]

27 minutes ago, grollies said:

I know Boz will laugh at this but I have made a (gulp) venturi aerator for my new fish pond. It's only 16m3 and the aerator is in the microbial filter setup.

 

I had a little trouble getting it to produce fine bubbles at the bottom of the filter but adjusting the venturi made it work eventually.

 

This is on a very low pressure (<0.7bar) supply. It uses only about 20% of the pump discharge flow, the rest going on circulation of water through the filter.

 

Great topic though Boz. I spent 25 years pumping water for a living and it still facintes me.

 

Cheers to @canuckamuck for making me research this further.

hahaha...

ive made myself a venturi pipe too last year,

attached to a 2" (1.5HP) waterpump that was actually my sprinkler system for the farm roof, to cool down the farm and chickens.

it worked pretty well for a small area but i needed maybe 5 more to fully aerate the pond ^^

so i dropped the venturi idea and searched for other method of aeration ^^

[canuckamuck]

I am going to take your word for it grollies. I still cannot imagine that fine bubbles can outdo a fine spray, for saturating with DO. But you sound pretty confident, and I don't have time to do the research. I enjoyed the discussion though

Sent from my UMI_SUPER using Thaivisa Connect mobile app

[grollies]

1 minute ago, canuckamuck said:

I am going to take your word for it grollies. I still cannot imagine that fine bubbles can outdo a fine spray, for saturating with DO. But you sound pretty confident, and I don't have time to do the research. I enjoyed the discussion though

Sent from my UMI_SUPER using Thaivisa Connect mobile app
 

 

Cheers mate, good discussion.

[BozZFX]

8 minutes ago, Hutch68 said:

Mate it may be a wise idea to listen to ozzydom.

Im a farmer too Hutch ^^

Like i said my main concept is not straight fish farming with 24hrs aeration...

where i live there are plenty of poultry/fish farmers around that never seen a aeration system before,

my "moo ban" alone has 5 poultry farms over a fish pond and im one of them.

if i would do only fish farming i wouldn't worry about aeration at all

because there's no waste dumped in the pond every second ^^

[BozZFX]

8 minutes ago, canuckamuck said:

I am going to take your word for it grollies. I still cannot imagine that fine bubbles can outdo a fine spray, for saturating with DO. But you sound pretty confident, and I don't have time to do the research. I enjoyed the discussion though

Sent from my UMI_SUPER using Thaivisa Connect mobile app
 

 

 fine spray will evaporate in the air mostly especially when its hot summer,

injecting fine air bubbles in the water is a better way without waterloss ^^

[canuckamuck]

Water loss is something I had not considered. Good point

Sent from my UMI_SUPER using Thaivisa Connect mobile app

[grollies]

 

@ozzydom

 

1 rai at 1m depth is 1,600m3.

 

A stocking density of 1 fish/m3 seems light compared to tank stocking density of 100 fish/m3.

 

I understand that pond culture is different but can you expand a little on the 1500 fish/rai.

 

I'm getting my info on tank cultures here as I'm looking at an aquaponics setup, small scale compared to you guys but the info is interesting.

http://www.thefishsite.com/articles/136/tank-culture-of-tilapia/

 

Edited January 16, 2017 by grollies

[BozZFX]

 
@ozzydom
 
1 rai at 1m depth is 1,600m3.
 
A stocking density of 1 fish/m3 seems light compared to tank stocking density of 100 fish/m3.
 
I understand that pond culture is different but can you expand a little on the 1500 fish/rai.
 
I'm getting my info on tank cultures here as I'm looking at an aquaponics setup, small scale compared to you guys but the info is interesting.
http://www.thefishsite.com/articles/136/tank-culture-of-tilapia/
 

Your 16m3 pond setup will do fine with your DIY venturi ^^
If your not satisfied with your homemade venturi you can order one online for only 280bth!
Its a 1" pipe veturi that fits into every waterpump and easy to install...
http://www.kasipantarut.com/
What fish you put in there?


Sent from my GT-I9500 using Thaivisa Connect mobile app

[grollies]

8 minutes ago, BozZFX said:

 

Your 16m3 pond setup will do fine with your DIY venturi ^^
If your not satisfied with your homemade venturi you can order one online for only 280bth!
Its a 1" pipe veturi that fits into every waterpump and easy to install...
http://www.kasipantarut.com/
What fish you put in there?


Sent from my GT-I9500 using Thaivisa Connect mobile app
 

 

Cheers Boz. Fish, don't know yet. My stepson wants to put in koi carp. 

 

Question on your aeration principle.

 

The fish waste produces nitrites (toxic to fish).

 

Aeration will aid microbial growth, converting nitrite to nitrate.

 

Won't the nitrates overwhelm the pond with algae if you haven't lots of pond weed to take up the nitrate?

 

Other than that you have to constantly turn over the water from a fresh supply using pond water on crops like rice?