TM30 - Still Confused!

[GroveHillWanderer]

23 hours ago, thaihome said:

Sounds like good logic, but in practice unless you have just arrived in a location where it's your problem to file the TM 30 for the first time ever, you are likely in arrears and eligible to be fined for bringing it up. 

 

A good rule to live a hassle free life,  never volunteer anything to a government bureaucracy. Applies worldwide.

 

I still say, keep your mouth shut and if they enforce it, pay the 2,000 baht fine once and go on with your life. 

TH 

It is fairly obvious that enforcement of the TM30 requirement is quite aleatory but reading the various threads where this is mentioned it does seem to me that those who wait until they are required to submit it end up having to pay a fine whereas those who go along and voluntarily submit it, do not. This was certainly my experience, I had been in the country some months before becoming aware of the requirement and when the house owner went along to submit the form, there was no hint of a fine being levied. 

 

I can't claim to have read every thread so I might have missed something but I cannot recall any reports of fines for people who volunteered the form at a time when nothing else was being submitted but plenty of reports of people being required to submit the form and of a fine being levied after trying to submit some other kind of paperwork  (90 day report, extension etc) at an immigration office. 

 

No doubt if I am wrong on this, someone will correct me. 

 

So while I would agree it is better in most cases not to volunteer things to government bureaucracies, this might appear to be one situation where it is not the case.   

Edited January 17, 2017 by GroveHillWanderer

[docspinoff]

think every thing on the internet about this TM30) form  should be deleted . and the government tell us fresh information covering all possibilities. .

[Lovethailandelite]

8 minutes ago, docspinoff said:

think every thing on the internet about this TM30) form  should be deleted . and the government tell us fresh information covering all possibilities. .

Yes. That will teach the government and immigration not to mess with you.

[gmac]

On 1/16/2017 at 10:33 AM, johnnybgood said:

 

Not really, the source is usually the cause...

 

My wife completed my 90 day last week at Jomptien.

That would be 12yrs x 4 = 48 actual  reports of the same address.

 

On her way out she was asked by an officer  "If as a house owner

had she registered her husband's address?"

My wifee's questions were then answered by "Go look at the Immigration web page"

 

Any experiences?  

 

 

It's interesting that the wording in the above Immigration Notice is clearly headed 'for businesses' and is intended to be used for foreigners 'accommodated on a temporary basis'.

 

I know we are all here temporarily as extensions are given for no more than 1 year at a time but it seems that the inclusion of the words 'home owners and heads of households' give them the opportunity to extend this to private individuals as well although this surely wasn't the original intention. 

[docspinoff]

7 minutes ago, gmac said:

 

It's interesting that the wording in the above Immigration Notice is clearly headed 'for businesses' and is intended to be used for foreigners 'accommodated on a temporary basis'.

 

I know we are all here temporarily as extensions are given for no more than 1 year at a time but it seems that the inclusion of the words 'home owners and heads of households' give them the opportunity to extend this to private individuals as well although this surely wasn't the original intention. 

it still looks like it could mean if you fill in the arrival tm6 card correctly you dont need to fill in a TM30 !!!!!!! is this true ????

[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, docspinoff said:

it still looks like it could mean if you fill in the arrival tm6 card correctly you dont need to fill in a TM30 !!!!!!! is this true ????

 

No, that is not the case.   As to what is the case, the enforced policy on TM-30 submissions differs by immigration office.  If you post what office you use, perhaps someone else who has run the TM-30 gauntlet with that office can advise on their policy.

[tgeezer]

You are guilty of applying logic. TM30 form is submitted by the House Master, a Thai phrase difined thus:
"House Master means any persons who is the chief possessor of a house , whether in the capacity of owner , tenant , or in any other capacity whatsoever , in accordance with the law on people act. " .
It may as well not have been translated.
If certain offices define you as House Master then you need to fill in a Form TM30. You will know if you are defined as House Master if a fine is administered. If you are not sure and want to avoid a fine submit the TM 30 form but then you won't know what you are!
For the rest of us, Immigration learns of our intended place of stay from the the TM6 form which you are right in thinking should be enough information irrespective of how we are defined.



Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

[Andrew Dwyer]

I went to Pathum Thani Immigration today for a certificate of residence ( for DL) and decided to do a TM30 as I've been here since May 2016 !! ( long story)
She filled the bottom in, tore it off and stapled it in back of my passport..... with a smile !!
Not a mention of a fine !

Like someone said earlier, the more Farangs the more likelihood of a fine !


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

[Nerone]

On 16/1/2017 at 2:23 PM, ocddave said:

 

Actually they do serve the same purpose, its just that the antiquated, and ridiculous system here is pathetic in this modern age of computers. The central government (Customs)should have one computer system with info on all tourist and long-term guest, that database should be accessed, and updated by relevant agencies, with time/user stamps, and receipt verification. How in this world of computers that can't be accomplished, is beyond me, and I work with computers/programming/databases. Either this is the most inept government in history, or their computer geniuses are complete morons. Instead we are fed ten million useless/repetitive pieces of paper/forms, that who knows what they are doing with it, and can't seem to handle. Hey Thailand, Join the modern age!!!! 

They join more our money...

[Maestro]

 
It's interesting that the wording in the above Immigration Notice is clearly headed 'for businesses' and is intended to be used for foreigners 'accommodated on a temporary basis'.
 
I know we are all here temporarily as extensions are given for no more than 1 year at a time but it seems that the inclusion of the words 'home owners and heads of households' give them the opportunity to extend this to private individuals as well although this surely wasn't the original intention. 

What did the immigration official say when your wife mentioned to him that the web page he asked her to read is for businesses, not for a private person like herself?

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Thaivisa Connect mobile app

[GroveHillWanderer]

On 01/18/2017 at 9:11 AM, gmac said:

 

It's interesting that the wording in the above Immigration Notice is clearly headed 'for businesses' and is intended to be used for foreigners 'accommodated on a temporary basis'.

 

I know we are all here temporarily as extensions are given for no more than 1 year at a time but it seems that the inclusion of the words 'home owners and heads of households' give them the opportunity to extend this to private individuals as well although this surely wasn't the original intention. 

While the notice on the website is headed 'for businesses' I would simply take that to mean that the information is applicable to businesses (which it is). The wording given below clearly shows that the regulation was also designed to include house owners and heads of household. So it seems to me the original intention was for it to include both private individuals and businesses. It's just that they didn't bother enforcing it for private individuals before, whereas now they are.

[Get Real]

On 2017-01-15 at 11:29 AM, Maestro said:

@Generalchaos

 

 

Although you neither own nor rent a house or apartment you are living somewhere, a place you refer to as "here", a residential dwelling, and it is the "house-master", owner or possessor of this residence who must submit the TM.30 notification of your arrival at the residence if the immigration office responsible for the area where the residence is located requires the submission of this form.

Everything you say is true. There is just one thing that doesn´t work with this system, and it´s therefore not lagally bound in any way. Niether for the house master or for the one living at the address.
The reason for that is simple. Any lawyer in any court would break this down into pure rubbish, due to that you as a person living at a place can not move and stay somwhere else for over 24 hour. Here the immigration rules regarding the TM.30 states that the house master must make a new TM.30 when you arrive again back to the place you stay. Mean that you as a person staying at the place must inform the house master of everything you do, but you are not responsible for the TM.30 so you will not do that and can not be punished for disobeying. The other option is that the house master spy on you and open your room to see that you been away for over 24 hours, which would be totally illegal.

[Roger Lee]

Just a quick response.  I did a 30 day extension at the Chon Buri Immigration office and submitted a TM-30 with that day's date, no problem.  I also have been submitting TM-30's on every visit irregardless if I've left the country or not.  It was smooth sailing with no questions or hassles.

[Get Real]

2 minutes ago, Roger Lee said:

Just a quick response.  I did a 30 day extension at the Chon Buri Immigration office and submitted a TM-30 with that day's date, no problem.  I also have been submitting TM-30's on every visit irregardless if I've left the country or not.  It was smooth sailing with no questions or hassles.

Yep! That´s what they want.

[Maestro]

1 hour ago, Get Real said:

Everything you say is true. There is just one thing that doesn´t work with this system, and it´s therefore not lagally bound in any way. Niether for the house master or for the one living at the address.
The reason for that is simple. Any lawyer in any court would break this down into pure rubbish, due to that you as a person living at a place can not move and stay somwhere else for over 24 hour. Here the immigration rules regarding the TM.30 states that the house master must make a new TM.30 when you arrive again back to the place you stay. Mean that you as a person staying at the place must inform the house master of everything you do, but you are not responsible for the TM.30 so you will not do that and can not be punished for disobeying. The other option is that the house master spy on you and open your room to see that you been away for over 24 hours, which would be totally illegal.

 

From a legal point of view, when a foreigner rents an apartment or a house, who is the "house-master" according to the immigration rules, the owner of the residence or the tenant?

 

From the Immigration Act (highlighting in bold red is mine):

Quote

 

Section 4 : In this Act :

...

“ House Master ” means any persons who is the chief possessor of a house , whether in the capacity of owner , tenant , or in any other capacity whatsoever , in accordance with the law on people act.

...

 

 

Is the owner, who is listed as the house-master (เจ้าบ้าน) in his blue book for the residence based on another law, probably the Civil Registration Act, also the house-master (เจ้าบ้าน) according to the Immigration Act after granting possession of the residence to the tenant with a lease agreement?

[Get Real]

2 hours ago, Maestro said:

 

From a legal point of view, when a foreigner rents an apartment or a house, who is the "house-master" according to the immigration rules, the owner of the residence or the tenant?

 

From the Immigration Act (highlighting in bold red is mine):

  Quote

 

Section 4 : In this Act :

...

“ House Master ” means any persons who is the chief possessor of a house , whether in the capacity of owner , tenant , or in any other capacity whatsoever , in accordance with the law on people act.

...

 

2 hours ago, Maestro said:

 

Is the owner, who is listed as the house-master (เจ้าบ้าน) in his blue book for the residence based on another law, probably the Civil Registration Act, also the house-master (เจ้าบ้าน) according to the Immigration Act after granting possession of the residence to the tenant with a lease agreement?

That´s actually the point. There is no way in knowing this, due to that the law clearly pointing in 2 or more directions which basically contradicts eachother.

[Maestro]

I see the Immigration Act pointing only in one direction. If the owner of a residence lives himself in it he is its possessor and therefore the house-master as defined by Section 4 of the Act. If the owner rents it out, then the tenant is the possessor and therefore the house-master as defined by Section 4 of the Act. This definition is the only one that counts for the implementation of the the legal duties under the Immigration Act.

 

What contradiction do you see?