"Forget it," London tells Scots who want second independence vote

[chickenslegs]

4 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

I appreciate that, from your perspective, we are the junior partner and should do as we are told, however I do not agree that an English want is worth more than a Scottish one - but let's not return to the whole UK / regional thing because we know that that will achieve nothing.

 

I am sure that I told you before that I would not want to stand in the way of the English securing their chosen goal of departing the EU, however the Scots have even more emphatically chosen to remain. Clearly the situation is only going to create more tension.

With the greatest of respect to yourself and the people of Scotland  - the Scots did not vote for Scotland to remain in the EU. They voted for the UK to remain in the EU.

We know that the Scots have already voted to remain within the UK. However, everything has changed since the Scotland independence poll. IMHO it's time for a new poll.

I suspect that, given the choice, most Scots would prefer to remain within the UK  - regardless of EU membership - but that is just my view.

 

 

[jpinx]

12 hours ago, nontabury said:

But your not asking for an equal partnership, what you want to see is the tail wagging the dog.

It doesn't matter how the tail is wagged - it's only important that everyone is so happy that it *IS* wagging :)

[Grouse]

12 hours ago, nontabury said:

That's if you believe the population of the U.K. Is only 65.5. I've read estimates of 75 million, Personnally I've no idea.

 

As to the number of M.P.s that Scotland has.Read up on the late Scottish politician Tam Dalyel regarding the West Lothian question.

So where are the additional 10 million? Wakefield? ?

 

The point is that the number of Scottish MPs is about right

 

The West Lothian Question is a fair point though.

[jpinx]

15 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Ah, I never noticed that someone else came to the same logical conclusion. Apologies for the repetition.

 

Just for clarification, you want to keep the terms that give you the result that you want, but reject terms that may not?

Here's the plan ....   Have a referendum in the whole of UK, with the question being worded for the country the voter is in.  Example--- "Do you want Wales to remain in the United Kingdom?"  ,,  substituting the locale according to the place - including Isle of Man, Guernsey, Jersey, Gibraltar, Falklands, Bermuda, etc, etc.    The referendum to be run at the same time everywhere and all the YES majority results are the new UK >

 

 

[RuamRudy]

8 hours ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

A Highland Terrier?

I thought the SNP had a minority government at Holyrood, propped up by the tree huggers.

 

A minority government in an Additional Member System parliament, i.e. a system designed to prevent any one party dominating - so approximately 49% of the MSPs, while not a majority, is pretty impressive.

[baboon]

14 minutes ago, jpinx said:

Here's the plan ....   Have a referendum in the whole of UK, with the question being worded for the country the voter is in.  Example--- "Do you want Wales to remain in the United Kingdom?"  ,,  substituting the locale according to the place - including Isle of Man, Guernsey, Jersey, Gibraltar, Falklands, Bermuda, etc, etc.    The referendum to be run at the same time everywhere and all the YES majority results are the new UK >

 

 

Problem being the SNP will never take Yes for an answer.

[RuamRudy]

14 minutes ago, jpinx said:

Here's the plan ....   Have a referendum in the whole of UK, with the question being worded for the country the voter is in.  Example--- "Do you want Wales to remain in the United Kingdom?"  ,,  substituting the locale according to the place - including Isle of Man, Guernsey, Jersey, Gibraltar, Falklands, Bermuda, etc, etc.    The referendum to be run at the same time everywhere and all the YES majority results are the new UK >

 

 

 

I suddenly had a vision of Lennie in 'Of Mice and Men', clutching his puppy tightly, ignorant of the fact that the puppy is struggling to get away, but Lennie is so happy that he has something warm and soft and cuddly that he owns, and he is in no hurry to let it go...

[jpinx]

9 hours ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

The recent polls have shown they are not a reliable indicator of what will happen, but it is all they have to go on. Sturgeon is a cold fish that wants her own way all the time. Maybe when the Scottish MPs are excluded from voting on exclusively English affairs at Westminster she might have more credibility. She seems to think if she shouts long enough and loud enough her demands will be met.

Personally, since realistically the Scots just can't afford to leave the UK, I think she should get her 2nd vote.

If she loses, bye bye to the Krankies, Salmond and Sturgeon. If she wins bye bye and good luck Scotland. Win - win situation.

Oh! and remember Scotland you need to pay your share of the UK national debt before you go.

 

 

 

Is there not an "agreement" whereby Westminster MP's who do not represent an English constituency refrain from voting on exclusively English affairs? 

[RuamRudy]

16 minutes ago, jpinx said:

Is there not an "agreement" whereby Westminster MP's who do not represent an English constituency refrain from voting on exclusively English affairs? 

 

There is, but because the English have failed to organise themselves into creating their own assembly, there are very few matter which go through Parliament that do not affect the entire UK due to spending on English matter affecting regional budgets.

The only time I can recall the SNP voting on purely English matters was the attempt to lift the fox hunting ban in England? While I object on a moral ground to toffs hunting and kiiling small animals for pleasure, I accept that the SNP should have stayed out of the matter.

[TEFLKrabi]

Following your logic, the Brexit referendum must be invalid as the rest of the EU was excluded from voting?

We're talking about a 'country' here, not an economic union.


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

[jpinx]

8 minutes ago, TEFLKrabi said:

We're talking about a 'country' here, not an economic union.


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

If the EU was just an "Economic Union", the UK would probably not want to leave.....     

 

Joking aside -- You're not wrong.  The UK is a nation-state and an identifiable country.  The EU is a mess of treaties between lots of mismatched countries.  The EU has no real identifiable status -- for example, the EU can not be a member of the UN, or NATO, etc, etc.

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

11 hours ago, Grouse said:

So where are the additional 10 million? Wakefield? ?

 

The point is that the number of Scottish MPs is about right

 

The West Lothian Question is a fair point though.

I'm not sure where they all live but a great deal came from eastern Europe, ask Gordon and Tony.

It is a strange system though, with the number of constituents and voters.

I'm not in favour of proportional representation in its various forms and didn't vote for it.

But the current system throws up some real anomalies, as Nigel Farrage can tell you.

56 SNPs in Westminster with 1.4m votes and 1 UKIP for 3.8m votes.

The SNP had the lowest number of votes per seat by far too.

[onthesoi]

6 minutes ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

... as Nigel Farrage can tell you.

56 SNPs in Westminster with 1.4m votes and 1 UKIP for 3.8m votes.

The SNP had the lowest number of votes per seat by far too.

 

Yes, poor old Nigel, he couldn't even win his own seat as party leader lolz & he also failed to fulfil his pre-election promise to resign if he didn't win his own seat,  in fact his entire party only won 1 seat of a possible 650.  The total number of votes is irrelevant unless it's a referendum.

 

But, thankfully Nigel has regained his senses and left UK politics ...even he knows his political career has been an abject failure.

[Grouse]

10 minutes ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

I'm not sure where they all live but a great deal came from eastern Europe, ask Gordon and Tony.

It is a strange system though, with the number of constituents and voters.

I'm not in favour of proportional representation in its various forms and didn't vote for it.

But the current system throws up some real anomalies, as Nigel Farrage can tell you.

56 SNPs in Westminster with 1.4m votes and 1 UKIP for 3.8m votes.

The SNP had the lowest number of votes per seat by far too.

Yes, it's a serious issue

 

I can see both sides of the argument 

 

On the one hand, the big parties become entrenched 

 

On the other hand the truely dreadful UKIP are kept out ?

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

6 minutes ago, onthesoi said:

 

Yes, poor old Nigel, he couldn't even win his own seat as party leader lolz & he also failed to fulfil his pre-election promise to resign if he didn't win his own seat,  in fact his entire party only won 1 seat of a possible 650.  The total number of votes is irrelevant unless it's a referendum.

 

But, thankfully Nigel has regained his senses and left UK politics ...even he knows his political career has been an abject failure.

After 10 years of hard work UKIP led by Farrage forced the conservatives to finally keep the oft made promise of an in/out EU-UK referendum. That was hardly a failure, possibly the greatest feat of someone that never got elected to Westminster...

I thought we were talking about Scotsit and the Jocks in Westminster and Holyrood wanting out of the UK?

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

14 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Yes, it's a serious issue

 

I can see both sides of the argument 

 

On the one hand, the big parties become entrenched 

 

On the other hand the truely dreadful UKIP are kept out ?

I've been anti-EU for 35 years, the rise of UKIP was the only way we would ever get a referendum.

UKIP now wants to take on the wreck that is left of the Labour Party after the Corbynisters and complete its destruction. I wish them the best of luck, but will not vote for them with Nuttall as leader.

Back to the plot...

[onthesoi]

13 minutes ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

After 10 years of hard work UKIP led by Farrage forced the conservatives to finally keep the oft made promise of an in/out EU-UK referendum. That was hardly a failure, possibly the greatest feat of someone that never got elected to Westminster...

 

That's the myth Nigel likes to feed to his followers. but meanwhile back on planet earth David Cameron called the referendum to block a leadership challenge from within the Tory party, prob Boris & Gove, nothing to do with Nigel as he belongs to a completely different party thus has no influence over the Tories.

 

Farage's only political success was being an integral part of & drawing a huge salary from, the European union, he is an out and out conman & grifter, it's like a pacifist joining the army to kill people then claiming he's trying to 'change it from within', the public record shows Nigel has been balls deep in the EU money trough since 1999 ....

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

12 minutes ago, onthesoi said:

That's the myth Nigel likes to feed to his followers. but meanwhile back on planet earth David Cameron called the referendum to block a leadership challenge from within the Tory party, prob Boris & Gove, nothing to do with Nigel as he belongs to a completely different party thus has no influence over the Tories.

 

Farage's only political success was being an integral part of & drawing a huge salary from, the European union, he is an out and out conman & grifter, it's like a pacifist joining the army to kill people then claiming he's trying to 'change it from within', the public record shows Nigel has been balls deep in the EU money trough since 1999 ....

There's no myth, any political annalist will tell you that UKIP were instrumental in pushing the split in the Tory party over the EU. If you claim to live on earth you must live in a very deep hole in the ground.

I don't blame MEPs from the many political parties that are UK MEPs for picking up their salary and expenses, the EU created the trough after all.

As for UKIP MEPs, there are a couple of old sayings:

Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer.

And,

Better the devil you know.

[onthesoi]

3 hours ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

There's no myth, any political annalist will tell you that UKIP were instrumental in pushing the split in the Tory party over the EU.

 

 

I'm not sure what a class of writers on Roman history has to do with UKIP,  but I can tell you it's complete nonsense to suggest that Farage was somehow even remotely involved in the referendum being called by the Tories.

 

This is the same guy who failed to win his own seat at the head of a party which spectacularly crashed and burned in the last election, UKIP as a whole won only one seat of a possible 650.  Yet he would have us believe he forced the Tories to call a referendum using some kind of psychic mind control trick?!?!?!

 

This picture was from the EU parliament last week, ah yes..the same place Farage claims he hates so much to his followers ...he has in fact been balls deep in the EU money trough since 1999:

 

 

 

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

1 hour ago, onthesoi said:

 

I'm not sure what a class of writers on Roman history has to do with UKIP,  but I can tell you it's complete nonsense to suggest that Farage was somehow even remotely involved in the referendum being called by the Tories.

 

This is the same guy who failed to win his own seat at the head of a party which spectacularly crashed and burned in the last election, UKIP as a whole won only one seat of a possible 650.  Yet he would have us believe he forced the Tories to call a referendum using some kind of psychic mind control trick?!?!?!

 

This picture was from the EU parliament last week, ah yes..the same place Farage claims he hates so much to his followers ...he has in fact been balls deep in the EU money trough since 1999:

 

 

 

 

Analyst, very funny, a spellcheck mistake...

You really need to crawl out of that insular deep dark hole you live in.

Wake up! Don't you read or watch any political debate? Or do you sit at home reading history by candle light. If you do read history you need to read about European history too.

Farage tells the EU like it is and they don't like it.

Now May is telling the undemocratic empire building fat cats and lobbyists from the tax avoiding multinationals that pay bribes, we are out and will no longer pay multi billions to support their ridiculous misconception for Europe. 

There will be several elections in the next year or so in the EU countries, we will see what happens.

 

I could go on, but this is NOW WAY OFF topic.

I will say ON topic, one Roman was right, Hadrian.

Jocksit asap.

 

[onthesoi]

3 minutes ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

You really need to crawl out of that insular deep dark hole you live in.

Wake up! Don't you read or watch any political debate? Or do you sit at home reading history by candle light. If you do read history you need to read about European history too.

Farage tells the EU like it is and they don't like it.

Now May is telling the undemocratic empire building fat cats and lobbyists from the tax avoiding multinationals that pay bribes, we are out and will no longer pay multi billions to support their ridiculous misconception for Europe. 

There will be several elections in the next year or so in the EU countries, we will see what happens.

 

 

Rambling nonsense that has nothing to do with the post you're replying to. 

 

Don't worry though, your lack of response to my points speaks volumes, it seems even Farage's own followers cannot defend him.

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

12 minutes ago, onthesoi said:

 

Rambling nonsense that has nothing to do with the post you're replying to. 

 

Don't worry though, your lack of response to my points speaks volumes, it seems even Farage's own followers cannot defend him.

Yes it did, every point. You are just in denial like the rest of the "remoaners".

Go live in France, Germany, Romania, Lithuania, Estonia or Albania etc soon too. Or better still in Scotland after it is out of the UK, broke, run by Sturgeon and struggling to join the EEA.

Explain who is going to pay for their nonexistent economies?

The Euro favours the German economy, but is a disaster for southern Europe. The Germans are already pissed off about bailing everyone out. Merkel will be very lucky to get in again.

You know nothing on this subject.

Good night sir.

 

 

 

[nontabury]

3 hours ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

Yes it did, every point. You are just in denial like the rest of the "remoaners".

Go live in France, Germany, Romania, Lithuania, Estonia or Albania etc soon too. Or better still in Scotland after it is out of the UK, broke, run by Sturgeon and struggling to join the EEA.

Explain who is going to pay for their nonexistent economies?

The Euro favours the German economy, but is a disaster for southern Europe. The Germans are already pissed off about bailing everyone out. Merkel will be very lucky to get in again.

You know nothing on this subject.

Good night sir.

 

 

 

 

  Do you not know,Nicola is the surpreme leader of the 45%.

 

 

[vogie]

6 hours ago, onthesoi said:

 

I'm not sure what a class of writers on Roman history has to do with UKIP,  but I can tell you it's complete nonsense to suggest that Farage was somehow even remotely involved in the referendum being called by the Tories.

 

This is the same guy who failed to win his own seat at the head of a party which spectacularly crashed and burned in the last election, UKIP as a whole won only one seat of a possible 650.  Yet he would have us believe he forced the Tories to call a referendum using some kind of psychic mind control trick?!?!?!

 

This picture was from the EU parliament last week, ah yes..the same place Farage claims he hates so much to his followers ...he has in fact been balls deep in the EU money trough since 1999:

 

 

 

UKIP amassed nearly 4 million and got 1 seat, the SNPs got 1.4 million votes and got 56 seats, don't you think the fault is with our voting system, rather than UKIP?

[RuamRudy]

12 hours ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

After 10 years of hard work UKIP led by Farrage forced the conservatives to finally keep the oft made promise of an in/out EU-UK referendum. That was hardly a failure, possibly the greatest feat of someone that never got elected to Westminster...

I thought we were talking about Scotsit and the Jocks in Westminster and Holyrood wanting out of the UK?

 

It was touched upon on the other current Scottish thread - I think that, by straight proportions, the ideal number of Scottish seats would be around 54 so, all things being equal, I see no reason not to reduce the headcount by 5. I am sure that labour did not pursue that in the past because of the advantages they received previously. Now, however, 56 or 54 SNPs in Westminster would not make a big difference to any outcome.

[Grouse]

12 hours ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

I've been anti-EU for 35 years, the rise of UKIP was the only way we would ever get a referendum.

UKIP now wants to take on the wreck that is left of the Labour Party after the Corbynisters and complete its destruction. I wish them the best of luck, but will not vote for them with Nuttall as leader.

Back to the plot...

It's ironic that Cameron made the fatal decision to call a referendum because he feared the rise of UKIP; in fact, as you say, it is Labour that has most to fear.

 

Of course we have seen a rise of populist, nationalist, isolationist movements in Western democracies. Often this has been whipped up by demagoguery.

 

In the U.K. and USA I point the finger of blame at the obscene levels of inequality. Though much of this is due to automation and globalisation, our governments have done little to mitigate this.

 

In the UK, we have UKIP which has become home for all kinds of numpties and racists in addition to those who just wanted to leave the EU for whatever real or imaginary reasons.

 

Sadly, UKIP seems to have uncovered a particularly nasty under belly of English society. 

 

This is is one of the negative reasons that is driving me to remain, personally, with the EU. The positive reasons are manifold, but less just say that I prefer European style social democracy.

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, vogie said:

UKIP amassed nearly 4 million and got 1 seat, the SNPs got 1.4 million votes and got 56 seats, don't you think the fault is with our voting system, rather than UKIP?

That picture of Farage made me want to vomit

 

Trying to enjoy a Sunday bacon sandwich and that pops up.

 

Can't the Government take down this awful man from bringing the UK into disrepute? 

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, nontabury said:

 

  Do you not know,Nicola is the surpreme leader of the 45%.

 

 

Very funny!

[RuamRudy]

18 minutes ago, Grouse said:

It's ironic that Cameron made the fatal decision to call a referendum because he feared the rise of UKIP; in fact, as you say, it is Labour that has most to fear.

 

Of course we have seen a rise of populist, nationalist, isolationist movements in Western democracies. Often this has been whipped up by demagoguery.

 

In the U.K. and USA I point the finger of blame at the obscene levels of inequality. Though much of this is due to automation and globalisation, our governments have done little to mitigate this.

 

In the UK, we have UKIP which has become home for all kinds of numpties and racists in addition to those who just wanted to leave the EU for whatever real or imaginary reasons.

 

Sadly, UKIP seems to have uncovered a particularly nasty under belly of English society. 

 

This is is one of the negative reasons that is driving me to remain, personally, with the EU. The positive reasons are manifold, but less just say that I prefer European style social democracy.

 

Just to develop your point a little further and to stay on topic, the SNP has, time and again, proven that they are not the isolationist form of unpleasant ethnic nationalism that UKIP thrives upon for its base; UKIP panders slavishly to the hard right racists, hence their loose, unashamed links to the more unpleasant aspects of UK 'politics', and the ugly, racist rhetoric that they speak.

 

This reality seems to be repeatedly overlooked by our Brexit / UKIP loving posters, who routinely call us SNP supporters anti-English - oh, the irony.

 

For those who still fail to understand the difference, try this very straight-forward guide.

[nontabury]

2 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Just to develop your point a little further and to stay on topic, the SNP has, time and again, proven that they are not the isolationist form of unpleasant ethnic nationalism that UKIP thrives upon for its base; UKIP panders slavishly to the hard right racists, hence their loose, unashamed links to the more unpleasant aspects of UK 'politics', and the ugly, racist rhetoric that they speak.

 

This reality seems to be repeatedly overlooked by our Brexit / UKIP loving posters, who routinely call us SNP supporters anti-English - oh, the irony.

 

For those who still fail to understand the difference, try this very straight-forward guide.

 

 

 Typical,when loosing the argument,call your opponents    racist,Facist,bigots etc.