1 hour ago, alanrchase said:

 

I will never consider a holiday in America again. Awful place according to you. Thanks for the Truth.

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Other awful places have similar, if not worse, problems than the Muricans.  You live in Thailand (I presume), so don't put your nose too far up in the air.

 

 

Edited February 10, 20179 yr by 55Jay

7 hours ago, Tawan Dok Krating Daeng said:

 

So what - you just make stuff up now? The idea of presenting a fact based rationale is something too difficult for you? You compare an unknowable figure for the cost of building (not including its operation and maintenance) a Wall to a completely fabricated and patently bogus number created by multiplying an absurdly false number of undocumented immigrants with an assumed, un-supported assertion about the dollar value of 'benefits' provided to undocumented immigrants.

 

The US does not lose 360bn every year in providing 'benefits' to undocumented immigrants.

 

What you have done is the very definition of intellectual self abuse.

 

Politifact concurs that the assertion that around 40% of undocumented immigrants arrive by air and overstay their visas. http://www.politifact.com/texas/statements/2013/sep/06/john-carter/john-carter-claim-40-percent-nations-illegal-resid/ 40% is a number large enough to drive a massive hole in your flimsy statement. Is it any wonder that many people are just fed up with being treated like idiots by the Alt Right anti-immigration bigots with this crap being pushed at them? Anti Immigrant bigoted hysteria is self defeating. The new generation of voting citizens reject your kind of BS.

 

"Generational differences in attitudes about immigrants have been evident since the mid-1990s, but they too have grown wider.

As of March, 76% of Millennials say immigrants strengthen the country, up from 59% in early 2013. Among those in Generation X, there has been an 11-point increase in positive views of immigrants since then (60% now, 49% then)."

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/04/15/americans-views-of-immigrants-marked-by-widening-partisan-generational-divides/

 

'Illegal Immigrants' cannot exist in nature. It is unnatural and illogical to say that a human being is illegal. Undocumented immigrants may have broken some codes -primarily civil - but they cannot be an illegal person. To argue that they are illegal people is a violation of their human rights. In any case, with one signature, all 5 billion (or is it 100 gazillion) "illegal Mexicans" in the US can become legal. Reagan did it.

 

And you wonder why people snigger at your sort.

I tend to snigger at "your sort" a lot more..  Self righteous pomposity springs to mind.  Keen to promote human rights and all that liberal luvvy goodness but only when they agree with you. 

If they build a wall on the scale that is being "Trumpeted" It will have to be patrolled and guarded, to stop people climbing over it.

 

That means guarding 2000 miles of wall, that will mean a lot of manpower, thousand and thousands of troops (of some paramilitary persuasion), and kit, communications, vehicles, command systems - that will cost a lot of dollars. An awful lot of dollars

 

Sooner or later there will have to be force used to stop people trying to cross.

 

That will probably translate into a significant number of dead people.

 

I vaguely recall that the Inner German Border, a wall of some 800 mile took up some 30%+ of the GDRs economic output. Now I am aware that is not a valid comparison, but, like the IGB, such a border wall will become an escalating struggle to guard/breach, and a bottomless pit into which to pour money.

 

Still - cheap at half the price eh?

Great investment

57 minutes ago, JAG said:

If they build a wall on the scale that is being "Trumpeted" It will have to be patrolled and guarded, to stop people climbing over it.

 

That means guarding 2000 miles of wall, that will mean a lot of manpower, thousand and thousands of troops (of some paramilitary persuasion), and kit, communications, vehicles, command systems - that will cost a lot of dollars. An awful lot of dollars

 

Sooner or later there will have to be force used to stop people trying to cross.

 

That will probably translate into a significant number of dead people.

 

I vaguely recall that the Inner German Border, a wall of some 800 mile took up some 30%+ of the GDRs economic output. Now I am aware that is not a valid comparison, but, like the IGB, such a border wall will become an escalating struggle to guard/breach, and a bottomless pit into which to pour money.

 

Still - cheap at half the price eh?

But think of the jobs and the necessary new infrastructure it will create in otherwise poor rural areas. Private companies will win contracts and locals will open  or expand businesses to serve the in rush of people. Building a wall is little different to FDR's New Deal agencies building dams and roads etc during the 1930's. Trump's wall could conceivably create thousands of jobs. 

1 hour ago, Pdaz said:

I tend to snigger at "your sort" a lot more..  Self righteous pomposity springs to mind.  Keen to promote human rights and all that liberal luvvy goodness but only when they agree with you. 

 

Thank you for taking the time to post about yourself in response to my comments on the completely insane anti-immigrant beat up of another poster. It is fascinating how Conservatism now no longer has any relation to Republicanism which is based on a system of government structured on individual commitment to community. Now Conservatism is just old man grump. Leave it to the Post Neo-Cons to impugn others for advocating human rights and seeing that as an insult.

 

You confuse pomposity with elitism. Most insecure and under-educated people tend to do so. Elitism is justified in a meritocracy. Do your sour grapes twist up your visage much?

 

Of course this is entirely off topic but please continue. I love talking about myself.

11 hours ago, alanrchase said:

Seem to recall Trump starting at 4 billion and anyone who said different was stupid.

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mebbee it was a typo on his tweet

 

 

if he scraps Obamacare, would that cover a reasonable part of the wall?

 

I guess he can ship over the left overs of the Berlin Wall they are going for a song

10 hours ago, Tawan Dok Krating Daeng said:

 

So what - you just make stuff up now? The idea of presenting a fact based rationale is something too difficult for you? You compare an unknowable figure for the cost of building (not including its operation and maintenance) a Wall to a completely fabricated and patently bogus number created by multiplying an absurdly false number of undocumented immigrants with an assumed, un-supported assertion about the dollar value of 'benefits' provided to undocumented immigrants.

 

The US does not lose 360bn every year in providing 'benefits' to undocumented immigrants.

 

What you have done is the very definition of intellectual self abuse.

 

Politifact concurs that the assertion that around 40% of undocumented immigrants arrive by air and overstay their visas. http://www.politifact.com/texas/statements/2013/sep/06/john-carter/john-carter-claim-40-percent-nations-illegal-resid/ 40% is a number large enough to drive a massive hole in your flimsy statement. Is it any wonder that many people are just fed up with being treated like idiots by the Alt Right anti-immigration bigots with this crap being pushed at them? Anti Immigrant bigoted hysteria is self defeating. The new generation of voting citizens reject your kind of BS.

 

"Generational differences in attitudes about immigrants have been evident since the mid-1990s, but they too have grown wider.

As of March, 76% of Millennials say immigrants strengthen the country, up from 59% in early 2013. Among those in Generation X, there has been an 11-point increase in positive views of immigrants since then (60% now, 49% then)."

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/04/15/americans-views-of-immigrants-marked-by-widening-partisan-generational-divides/

 

'Illegal Immigrants' cannot exist in nature. It is unnatural and illogical to say that a human being is illegal. Undocumented immigrants may have broken some codes -primarily civil - but they cannot be an illegal person. To argue that they are illegal people is a violation of their human rights. In any case, with one signature, all 5 billion (or is it 100 gazillion) "illegal Mexicans" in the US can become legal. Reagan did it.

 

And you wonder why people snigger at your sort.

 

What should also be said is that the 'undocumented' actually add very large amounts of value which their mostly US bosses turn into very large amounts of local real $ revenue and margin and in fact make many Americans wealthy.

 

Also where's the old argument that low paid 'undocumented' often do the jobs that yanks (and Thais) don't want to do?

 

Back to the wall, is it not possible that those determined to go to the US will just find other ways to get there. Perhaps this could also start a new industry? 

Edited February 10, 20179 yr by scorecard

Baiting post removed.  

7 hours ago, WaywardWind said:

No worries - just head to the nearest IKEA:

 

The WALL is not to keep people out, it is to keep people in.........

I have no idea how they can come up with an accurate estimate when the wall has not even been designed yet. Just throw a number out and then the inevitable cost overruns. A make work project but philosophically needed I guess.

I read an interesting comment recently - attach solar panels to it and it will pay for itself

4 hours ago, SaintLouisBlues said:

I read an interesting comment recently - attach solar panels to it and it will pay for itself

And who gets the electricity?   

 

Could it be used for Air Conditioning to keep people cool while they wait to cross (whichever way they decide to go).

On 2/10/2017 at 8:10 AM, jackh said:

Cheap at half the price!  BUILD THAT WALL!

Yeah build a wall and the refugees will just tunnel under it as in Gaza and Berlin. Complete waste of money. Seems USA has more money than good sense.

On 2/11/2017 at 4:49 AM, Ulic said:

I have no idea how they can come up with an accurate estimate when the wall has not even been designed yet. Just throw a number out and then the inevitable cost overruns. A make work project but philosophically needed I guess.

"The wall is getting designed right now."

On 2/10/2017 at 4:02 PM, daveAustin said:

I don't get all the invective from the anti-Trump wallies. Who cares about the cost. Along with curbs on immigration, the idea is not a new one; successive presidents have ruminated extending the wall. People build walls on their property to keep out burglars all the time. Don't see the big deal. Folk are up in arms not because of the idea, but because who is behind it this time. All he's trying to do is to stop his country rotting from the inside out and to protect Americans. But the leftie detractors would sooner cut off their nose to spite their face and let everyone in, even if it means putting themselves and their kin at risk.

 

People care about the wall because at first Trumps language was not appropriate. People didn't think he would follow through, but now that he is keeping his words. People care because it will be tax payers paying for it, not Mexico, not Trump. The wall is a stupid idea that will cost even more money for maintenance and upkeep. Trump keeps on preaching about jobs it will create, its only temporary jobs no need for any celebration. Materials used can't be within budget if its all made in the usa. Trump continues to play on the immigrant fears of his followers.

 

On 2/10/2017 at 9:13 AM, hdkane said:

Something...a barrier of some sort...is needed...people only focus on the poor mexicans who work in the usa...and forget the citizens who are also human and need services...

 

the average benefit that an illegal immigrant takes from the us govt is about 10000 usd...it's 15000 if they are a kid going to public school...because illegals don't pay taxes, except for sales tax, an individual must purchase about 200,000 worth of goods to offset the benefits they take...i know no one who spends that kind of money as an illegal...there are about 30 million illegals, so that's about 360,000,000,000 usd a year that is lost...anyone who thinks the wall is too expensive needs to realize that  virtually ALL of the social welfare programs that are becoming insolvent could be replenished if the us govt can get this problem under control...

The average illegal does not take 10,000 USD, if so please state how? Its more like the resources the US government puts into stop illegals will cost about that much if you divide it, also taking into consideration public facilities used such as roads, etc.  You are right when saying kids take benefit due to their education as they are entitled to attend a public school. That is for the benefit for the country, legal or illegal, kids should not be punished for their parents actions. 

 

Social programs fail not just because of the illegals, a big part is also due to American citizens. If you want programs to be sustainable Americans simply needs to pay more taxes like countries in Europe that have free healthcare and education.

On 2017-02-10 at 2:42 PM, scorecard said:

 

What should also be said is that the 'undocumented' actually add very large amounts of value which their mostly US bosses turn into very large amounts of local real $ revenue and margin and in fact make many Americans wealthy.

 

Also where's the old argument that low paid 'undocumented' often do the jobs that yanks (and Thais) don't want to do?

 

Back to the wall, is it not possible that those determined to go to the US will just find other ways to get there. Perhaps this could also start a new industry? 

Alabama immigration: crops rot as workers vanish to avoid crackdown.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/oct/14/alabama-immigration-law-workers

On 2/10/2017 at 0:43 PM, attrayant said:

What Geology Has to Say About Building a 1,000-Mile Border Wall

 

 

My prediction:  Trump will skip the years of surveying and quickly & messily plug various easy-to-reach spots with a combination of cheap walls an fences, then claim success on a completed project and a fulfilled campaign promise.  Immigrants will continue to flow into the country by air, which is how most of the current undocumented foreigners got in - by coming in legally and overstaying their visas.

 

In other words, the party of "fiscal responsibility" we will end up spending north of $30 billion to achieve almost no effect on illegal immigration.

 

Landmines?

 

 

On 2/10/2017 at 7:30 AM, elgordo38 said:

Seems the wall will be counter productive. You will be stopping people that want to go back. Politicians campaign promises filled at any price.

Study finds more Mexicans leaving the US than coming. ... During the same five years, 870,000 Mexicans came to the United States, resulting in a net flow to Mexico of about 140,000. The desire to reunite families is the main reason more Mexicans are moving south than north, Pew found.Nov 19, 2015

I don't think it's just Mexican's DJT wants to stop walking into the USA, there are a lot of other people who are pure evil. I suppose my question is why shouldn't a country have a physical border around it and people only come in legally? The UK has a big moat around it.

Edited February 13, 20179 yr by uptheos

I don't think it's just Mexican's DJT wants to stop walking into the USA, there are a lot of other people who are pure evil. I suppose my question is why shouldn't a country have a physical border around it and people only come in legally?

Because it costs a lot of money building, even more maintaining, and most illegals enter legally and/or via other ways.

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1 minute ago, stevenl said:

Because it costs a lot of money building, even more maintaining, and most illegals enter legally and/or via other ways.

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You have no idea who enters, how and how many.

A country is still entitled to have protected borders

You have no idea who enters, how and how many.
A country is still entitled to have protected borders

Those numbers are available all over the net.

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Just now, stevenl said:

Those numbers are available all over the net.

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OK but the border sentence stands

Will it be possible to see The Great Wall of Chump from the International Space Station?

38 minutes ago, uptheos said:

A country is still entitled to have protected borders

 

Nobody has said a country has no right to protect its borders; so I am not sure who you are arguing against with that remark.

 

What most people object to is the wastefulness and implausibility of the project.  Do you have any idea how much good could be done with $30 billion?  You could solve the water crisis in Flint, Michigan twenty times.  You could make the entire homeless population vanish by buying them each a house.

 

 

 

20 minutes ago, attrayant said:

 

Nobody has said a country has no right to protect its borders; so I am not sure who you are arguing against with that remark.

 

What most people object to is the wastefulness and implausibility of the project.  Do you have any idea how much good could be done with $30 billion?  You could solve the water crisis in Flint, Michigan twenty times.  You could make the entire homeless population vanish by buying them each a house.

 

 

Couldn't agree more, but they set aside billions to waste anyway. Take rocket launching as a prime example (not counting those that don't blow up)