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Putin orders Russia to recognise documents issued in rebel-held east Ukraine

 

Local police officers arrange passports during a ceremony to issue the first passports of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic to residents in Donetsk, Ukraine, March 16, 2016. REUTERS/Alexander Ermochenko/File Photo

 

MOSCOW (Reuters) - President Vladimir Putin ordered Russian authorities on Saturday to temporarily recognise civil registration documents issued in separatist-held areas of eastern Ukraine, a decision strongly criticised by Ukraine's president.

The decision will enable people from the conflict-hit region to travel, work or study in Russia.

According to Putin's order, published on the Kremlin website, Russia will temporarily recognise identity documents, diplomas, birth and marriage certificates and vehicle registration plates issued in the eastern Ukraine regions of Donetsk and Luhansk.

The legislation will be in place until a "political settlement of the situation" in these regions based on the Minsk peace accords, the Kremlin said.

Ukrainian authorities sharply criticised Putin's decision, saying Russia had violated the Minsk peace process.

"For me, this is another proof of Russian occupation as well as Russian violation of international law," Ukraine's President Petro Poroshenko told reporters in Munich, Germany.

"This step completely negates the Minsk process," said Oleksander Turchynov, secretary of Ukraine's National Security and Defence Council, which is headed by Poroshenko.

Fighting has recently escalated in the conflict between the Ukrainian government and Russian-backed separatists in eastern Ukraine, refocusing global attention on a simmering conflict that has strained relations between Russia and the West.

The February 2015 Minsk peace agreement only locked the two sides into a stalemate that has been broken periodically by sharp resurgences of fighting that Kiev and the Kremlin accuse each other of instigating.

The foreign ministers of Germany, France, Russia and Ukraine met on Saturday in Munich and agreed to use their influence to implement a ceasefire and the withdrawal of heavy weapons from Monday in eastern Ukraine.

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2017-02-19

[craigt3365]

Hmmmm....talk about making things worse.  Wow.

[Srikcir]

The new Russian annexation. How will Trump respond to this new Russian attack against Ukraine's sovereignty? Lift more sanctions against Russia?

[Richard W]

7 hours ago, craigt3365 said:

Hmmmm....talk about making things worse.  Wow.

"According to Putin's order, published on the Kremlin website, Russia will temporarily recognise identity documents, diplomas, birth and marriage certificates and vehicle registration plates issued in the eastern Ukraine regions of Donetsk and Luhansk."

 

So how do you think people living under the control of the rebels should obtain such documents?

[craigt3365]

14 hours ago, Richard W said:

"According to Putin's order, published on the Kremlin website, Russia will temporarily recognise identity documents, diplomas, birth and marriage certificates and vehicle registration plates issued in the eastern Ukraine regions of Donetsk and Luhansk."

 

So how do you think people living under the control of the rebels should obtain such documents?

They've already got these documents for Ukraine, as they are all citizens of that country.  How about Russia leave, quit supplying the rebels heavy weapons, and let Ukraine be sovereign again?  It is an invasion after all.

[ddavidovsky]

The majority of the population here is ethnically Russian. Certainly the native language spoken by the vast majority is  Russian.How is this an annexation? How does this area 'belong' to Ukraine? At the very least, the area needs more automony. And if the majority want to be part of Russia, then that is the most sensible solution. This is not Russia against the west, so quit spreading that paranoia - it's simply an irredentism issue. Time to fix this properly or there will be conflict for generations.

[Srikcir]

14 minutes ago, ddavidovsky said:

This is not Russia against the west

No, more specifically it's Russia against a sovereign nation.

[craigt3365]

4 minutes ago, ddavidovsky said:

The majority of the population here is ethnically Russian. Certainly the native language spoken by the vast majority is  Russian.How is this an annexation? How does this area 'belong' to Ukraine? At the very least, the area needs more automony. And if the majority want to be part of Russia, then that is the most sensible solution. This is not Russia against the west, so quit spreading that paranoia - it's simply an irredentism issue. Time to fix this properly or there will be conflict for generations.

Wow.  So you are saying it's OK if Malaysia takes over the southern part of Thailand because it use to belong to them and they speak primarily Malay there?  What a ridiculous idea.  It's up to an entire nation as to what to do, not just a few with guns.

 

Russia has invaded Ukraine.  Impossible to say otherwise, unless trolling.

[ddavidovsky]

4 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

Wow.  So you are saying it's OK if Malaysia takes over the southern part of Thailand because it use to belong to them and they speak primarily Malay there?  What a ridiculous idea.  It's up to an entire nation as to what to do, not just a few with guns.

 

Russia has invaded Ukraine.  Impossible to say otherwise, unless trolling.

 

I'm not inclined to look up the demographics of Southern Thailand right now, but if the numbers are equivalent to the situation in Donetsk, then, yes, the area needs more autonomy. And if the majority of the people there want to be part of Malaysia, then yes, they should be. And don't think Malaysians haven't been supporting them.

 

Quit the trolling accusations - it's the recourse of people who are offended by anything that doesn't accord with their prejudices.

 

 

[ddavidovsky]

12 minutes ago, Srikcir said:

No, more specifically it's Russia against a sovereign nation.

 

Sovereign nations are a human invention, and often fatuous - I don't think the lines were drawn during Creation.

The lines were drawn relatively recently, and I doubt the local populations had any say over that at the time. By not recognising that there is a large population of people not happy - you are promoting continued conflict rather than rational resolution. Why should you care so much about Ukraine?

[ilostmypassword]

14 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

Wow.  So you are saying it's OK if Malaysia takes over the southern part of Thailand because it use to belong to them and they speak primarily Malay there?  What a ridiculous idea.  It's up to an entire nation as to what to do, not just a few with guns.

 

Russia has invaded Ukraine.  Impossible to say otherwise, unless trolling.

 

3 minutes ago, ddavidovsky said:

 

I'm not inclined to look up the demographics of Southern Thailand right now, but if the numbers are equivalent to the situation in Donetsk, then, yes, the area needs more autonomy. And if the majority of the people there want to be part of Malaysia, then yes, they should be. And don't think Malaysians haven't been supporting them.

 

Quit the trolling accusations - it's the recourse of people who are offended by anything that doesn't accord with their prejudices.

 

 

You have a point.  It should read "Russia has invaded Ukraine. Impossible to say otherwise unless delusional."

[craigt3365]

9 minutes ago, ddavidovsky said:

 

I'm not inclined to look up the demographics of Southern Thailand right now, but if the numbers are equivalent to the situation in Donetsk, then, yes, the area needs more autonomy. And if the majority of the people there want to be part of Malaysia, then yes, they should be. And don't think Malaysians haven't been supporting them.

 

Quit the trolling accusations - it's the recourse of people who are offended by anything that doesn't accord with their prejudices.

Not a prejudice.  Just an inclination to follow the law.  What Russia did was illegal.  No denying that. 

 

If a region needs more autonomy, then that's a decision the central government makes.  Not just a small group of people.  It's up to the entire nation. 

 

This guy lays it out quite well.  Interesting to see if you'll read this or not:

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/coping-with-russia
 

Quote

 

Defence Secretary Sir Michael Fallon speaking about Russia at St Andrews University.

 

I was in Ukraine two weeks ago and, as this month marks three years on from the events leading to Russia’s illegal annexation of Crimea, it’s instructive to reflect on what’s happened since.

.......

Since then, in the Donbas, almost 10,000 people have been killed and nearly 1.5 million displaced.

 

 

And you support 10,000 people being killed and 1.5 million displaced?  Really?

[craigt3365]

10 minutes ago, ddavidovsky said:

 

Sovereign nations are a human invention, and often fatuous - I don't think the lines were drawn during Creation.

The lines were drawn relatively recently, and I doubt the local populations had any say over that at the time. By not recognising that there is a large population of people not happy - you are promoting continued conflict rather than rational resolution. Why should you care so much about Ukraine?

Incredible insight that sovereign nations were a human invention. LOL

 

A rational resolution would be for Russia to leave Ukraine.  Problem solved.  Conflict ended.  They could also do the same in Moldova and Georgia.

[ddavidovsky]

1 minute ago, craigt3365 said:

Not a prejudice.  Just an inclination to follow the law.  What Russia did was illegal.  No denying that. 

 

If a region needs more autonomy, then that's a decision the central government makes.  Not just a small group of people.  It's up to the entire nation. 

 

This guy lays it out quite well.  Interesting to see if you'll read this or not:

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/coping-with-russia
 

 

And you support 10,000 people being killed and 1.5 million displaced?  Really?

 

I support Ukraine swallowing its pride and letting the people in this region decide for themselves.

Not sure what law you are talking about but law is also made by people for people, and, when it comes to nationhood, often made by some people against other people. When a large enough group doesn't recognise the 'law' it's not the law. You are promoting an unsustainable situation of conflict. Why not go for the logical resolution, given the demographics?

[ddavidovsky]

4 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

Incredible insight that sovereign nations were a human invention. LOL

 

A rational resolution would be for Russia to leave Ukraine.  Problem solved.  Conflict ended.  They could also do the same in Moldova and Georgia.

So you simply refuse to acknowlege the demographics of the region. Seems to be okay in your book for a regional majority not to have autonomy. Good luck for promoting world peace...

[craigt3365]

2 minutes ago, ddavidovsky said:

 

I support Ukraine swallowing its pride and letting the people in this region decide for themselves.

Not sure what law you are talking about but law is also made by people for people, and, when it comes to nationhood, often made by some people against other people. When a large enough group doesn't recognise the 'law' it's not the law. You are promoting an unsustainable situation of conflict. Why not go for the logical resolution, given the demographics?

It's not up to just the people in one region.  You don't seem to understand that.  It's up to the nation.  How about Russia swallow it's pride and leave Ukraine?  Problem solved.

 

It's called international law.  You can look it up.  One reason why there are sanctions against Russia right now.   It's was brought on by the international community.

 

You can't just selectively not recognize one law because you don't like it.  Silly thing to say.  If the Russian speaking people in that area don't like living there, then apply for citizenship in Russia and move.  Easy!

[craigt3365]

2 minutes ago, ddavidovsky said:

So you simply refuse to acknowlege the demographics of the region. Seems to be okay in your book for a regional majority not to have autonomy. Good luck for promoting world peace...

I know the demographics very well.  Again, it's like saying Malaysia has the right to invade and kill innocent civilians in Southern Thailand because it use to belong to them and most are of Malay origin.  If this principle were applied world wide, there'd be mass chaos.

[thaihome]

3 hours ago, ddavidovsky said:

The majority of the population here is ethnically Russian. Certainly the native language spoken by the vast majority is  Russian.How is this an annexation? How does this area 'belong' to Ukraine? At the very least, the area needs more automony. And if the majority want to be part of Russia, then that is the most sensible solution. This is not Russia against the west, so quit spreading that paranoia - it's simply an irredentism issue. Time to fix this properly or there will be conflict for generations.

There are only small areas within Ukraine that are majority ethnically Russian, almost exclusively in the very Eastern part of the country. I don't think these people would be fighting a civil war without the support of the Russian government. 

TH

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Ukraine

[Srikcir]

2 hours ago, ddavidovsky said:

Seems to be okay in your book for a regional majority not to have autonomy.

I expect then that you support the Malay-Thais in Thailand's Southern provinces to have autonomy?

Historically, they were part of the Islamic Kingdom of Patanni, spoke Bahasa Malaysia and forced to integrate into a Thai-speaking Buddhist society and culture.

[Richard W]

17 hours ago, ddavidovsky said:

The majority of the population here is ethnically Russian.

As the man on the spot, can you tell us whether Ukrainian-sanctioned authorities are issuing birth and marriage certificates, both for recent marriages and, where appropriate, births and marriages registered long ago?  (That's 4 questions.) 

17 hours ago, ddavidovsky said:

The majority of the population here is ethnically Russian. Certainly the native language spoken by the vast majority is  Russian.How is this an annexation? How does this area 'belong' to Ukraine? At the very least, the area needs more automony. And if the majority want to be part of Russia, then that is the most sensible solution. This is not Russia against the west, so quit spreading that paranoia - it's simply an irredentism issue. Time to fix this properly or there will be conflict for generations.

There are a number of issues here.  Firstly, Russia guaranteed the territorial integrity of the Ukraine in return for the Ukraine giving up nuclear weapons.  The lesson is clear - countries need reliable nuclear umbrellas.

 

Secondly, your argument justifies precautionary ethnic cleansing.  Should Latvia expel its Russians?  (I get the impression a fair number are actually stateless.)

 

Thirdly, unless ethnic cleansing has been  happening in the Ukraine, any reasonable borders will leave significant minorities - see map.  The Crimea was the cleanest border readjustment available.

[Richard W]

14 hours ago, Srikcir said:

Historically, they were part of the Islamic Kingdom of Patanni, spoke Bahasa Malaysia and forced to integrate into a Thai-speaking Buddhist society and culture.

There seem to be good reasons to regard their language, Patani Malay (ISO 693-3 code mfa) , as distinct from Bahasa Malaysia (ISO 6930-3 code zsm).

[ddavidovsky]

20 hours ago, thaihome said:

There are only small areas within Ukraine that are majority ethnically Russian, almost exclusively in the very Eastern part of the country. I don't think these people would be fighting a civil war without the support of the Russian government. 

TH

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Ukraine

 

Of course the Russians have the support of Russia. You would expect them to. I don't see any immorality in that, only honour.

 

The map clearly shows how insupportable this situation is. Irredentism is a problem the world over and most minorities are willing to put up with it, but when they are the historic majority and the borders have been set relatively recently, autonomy or national boundary-change are the sensible solutions.

[craigt3365]

5 minutes ago, ddavidovsky said:

 

Of course the Russians have the support of Russia. You would expect them to. I don't see any immorality in that, only honour.

 

The map clearly shows how insupportable this situation is. Irredentism is a problem the world over and most minorities are willing to put up with it, but when they are the historic majority and the borders have been set relatively recently, autonomy or national boundary-change are the sensible solutions.

Honor in them killing 10,000 innocent civilians?  Really?  Strange sense of honor.  And definitely not moral.

 

You make good points about minorities.  It's a problem in pretty much every country in the world.  But having another country come in and kill thousands to "help" out isn't the answer.  Russia did this to keep Ukraine siding with NATO.  I hope Trump changes that.  Russia will back down quickly.  Russia's playing the same game in Moldova and Georgia.  And it has nothing to do with minorities.

[Pakboong]

24 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

The last part is not true.  Donetsk and Lugansk belong to the sovereign country of Ukraine.  There are problems traveling due to the weapons and soldiers Russia is providing.  Stop this and you'll stop the fighting.  Simple, really.

 

 

That train has left the station. These people can't just drive across the border to do anything. Their choice, not mine.

[craigt3365]

4 minutes ago, Pakboong said:

That train has left the station. These people can't just drive across the border to do anything. Their choice, not mine.

It wasn't their choice.  It was Russia's.  100% of the people in these areas are not interested in becoming part of Russia.  Some, yes, but not all.  So no, it wasn't their choice.  It was Putin's and the 10,000 dead are on his hands.

[ddavidovsky]

22 hours ago, craigt3365 said:

Honor in them killing 10,000 innocent civilians?  Really?  Strange sense of honor.  And definitely not moral.

 

You make good points about minorities.  It's a problem in pretty much every country in the world.  But having another country come in and kill thousands to "help" out isn't the answer.  Russia did this to keep Ukraine siding with NATO.  I hope Trump changes that.  Russia will back down quickly.  Russia's playing the same game in Moldova and Georgia.  And it has nothing to do with minorities.

People struggle for autonomy. What's not to understand? Those who are preventing the claims of a majority to independence are the aggressors. The people in this region want their own country. They have already established their own republics, such is there aversion to being part of Ukraine.

 

The solution is simple, logical and humane. It simply involves Ukraine swallowing its pride and relinquishing those unworkable borders, because that is all that is causing the conflict. Instead, they are actually trying to build a wall along the border that will lock people into a country in which they don't want to live! Irresponsible and clueless.

 

This is already a fait accompli. History is done. There's no going back. Now Ukraine can make it easy or they can make it difficult by prolonging a conflict with no foreseeable end. What's it to be?

[craigt3365]

30 minutes ago, ddavidovsky said:

People struggle for autonomy. What's not to understand? Those who are preventing the claims of a majority to independence are the aggressors. The people in this region want their own country. They have already established their own republics, such is there aversion to being part of Ukraine.

 

The solution is simple, logical and humane. It simply involves Ukraine swallowing its pride and relinquishing those unworkable borders, because that is all that is causing the conflict. Instead, they are actually trying to build a wall along the border that will lock people into a country in which they don't want to live! Irresponsible and clueless.

 

This is already a fait accompli. History is done. There's no going back. Now Ukraine can make it easy or they can make it difficult by prolonging a conflict with no foreseeable end. What's it to be?

Luckily, what you say should happen is illegal and the entire Western world is against this.  Countries have borders for a reason.  Like them or not, they have to be respected.  Why doesn't Russia open up it's borders and let people pass freely?  Wouldn't that solve these problems?

 

The solution is simple and humane.  Have Russia leave.  Luckily, the entire EU is in agreement with this.  Read this:

 

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//TEXT+TA+P8-TA-2015-0225+0+DOC+XML+V0//EN

 

C.  whereas Russia has – by illegally annexing Crimea, an action which was strongly condemned by the EU and which will not be recognised, and waging an armed conflict against Ukraine, with the direct and indirect participation of military and security services, and by deliberately destabilising this neighbouring sovereign and independent country – profoundly damaged its relationship with the EU by jeopardising the basic principles of Europe’s security by not respecting borders and by breaking its international commitments, notably the United Nations Charter, the Helsinki Final Act, the Budapest Memorandum, the 1990 Paris Charter for a New Europe and the bilateral Treaty of Friendship, Cooperation and Partnership; whereas the humanitarian situation in Crimea and in Eastern Ukraine has considerably deteriorated, with a death toll of several thousand;