Tragedy played out on Facebook as sick and uninsured Bangkok expat dies on the way to hospital

[mommysboy]

3 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

FYI, there are lots of Americans, and probably in increasing numbers, who think the current system in the U.S. is woefully inadequate and are looking for some kind of universal care solution.

 

But, stupid people keep electing loons like Trump for reasons that probably don't have much to do with health care policy, and who knows what's going to happen now. The Obama administration supposedly early on tried for a version of universal health, but it just wasn't going to fly with opposition from the Republicans in Congress and big pharma, etc.

 

In my working years in the U.S., I always had good health insurance subsidized by my employers and never really was lacking for anything. But even so, I recognized then and even more now that lots of my fellow countrymen remained uninsured or under-insured and thus were being denied affordable health care. That's why I've always supported some version of universal care.

 

However, I think the one thing that scares a lot of Americans on that subject are the reports we read coming out of places like Canada, the UK, etc. of sick people under their national health plans having to wait months/many months for particular services/operations because of demand backlogs. And no one wants to find themselves in that kind of situation. In my years of private health insurance in the U.S., I never had to wait for anything...

 

 

 

Certainly, regarding the UK, one is very unlikely to be kept waiting for emergency operations.  However, it can be an agonizing wait for hip replacements for instance.  And just these past couple of months there have been long waiting times in A and E.  There is also an increasing tenedency to treat sick people as social care instead of health care, which in many cases means treatment must be self funded.

 

I think there is a health crisis in nearly all western societies because of the incredible demands of an ageing population, as well as challenges brought about by obesity.

 

Uk is actually underfunded.  USA spends more.  The problem in USA appears to me to be the national psyche and tyranny of drug companies, who cannot manipulate the NHS in the same way.

 

 

[Gonefortea]

10 minutes ago, Travel2003 said:

Hair splitting.

You obviously did not get the point.

 

Was was the point? Can't own a motor bike? Why because he had no money for hospital treatment?. Circumstances change from one day to the next. Maybe he was waiting for a pension to be paid to him soon. Maybe he didn't have a lot of money, and panicked thinking it was going to cost a fortune. (Reading posts on here I can see why he might have been worried about costs of medical care) in reality it's not expensive if you go to a government hospital. This he can have a bike but can't afford hospital care is rubbish. 

[paulbj2]

23 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

How can Healthcare  not be a right when every Constitution ever written states each person has a right to life. Right now in the US- this is a very hot issue because of the rising costs associated with 'Obamacare'. It is  incredible to me that of all the Nations on this Earth that America has the highest defense budget in the World and cannot provide universal healthcare to its citizens and residents and the current President Trump does not have a real plan to provide even what Canada, the UK , Japan or even Thailand has.

 

He does have a plan to raise the defense budget even more while US citizens will continue to die from lack of funds for ever rising healthcare and pharmaceutical costs. The insurance companies; Big Pharma; and those associated with the Medical industry will continue to get wealthier while Americans die and the politicians will support the system because the medical industry and its hangers on will continue to 'lobby'  the politicians.

 

The suckers are the American public who actually believe Government cares about them. Is there no one who will step up and stop this madness?  If there is not a change for the better Worldwide where every person on Earth is assured of healthcare, one day we will see Worldwide revolution and anarchy.

It is entirely mysterious to me, as a European, how it can be that the US spends much, much more, per capita, on healthcare than any other nation on earth and yet Americans are regularly forced into bankruptcy because of medical bills; it seems completely insane.

 

Until recently, I was living in Luxembourg which, according to at least to one respected international researcher, the Legatum Institute, has the best healthcare system in the world. Its citizens also enjoy one of the longest lifespans in the world; maybe the two are related! If you are salaried in Luxembourg, your contribution to the government healthcare budget is deducted directly from your salary and is a straight percentage of your applicable earnings. As a retirée, it is deducted directly from your pension; my contribution was 31€/month after I retired. There are no exclusions for pre-existing conditions, or for accidents when drunk (excluded from most insurance policies to the chagrin of many a holiday-maker here). There are fees that the patient has to pay; for example, a visit to a family doctor is around 39 Euros of which only around 35 Euros is refunded and there is a ceiling, a maximum sum you can be asked to pay for prescriptions and other treatment over the course of a year this is related to your income so that the retired on small pensions and the low paid will be able to recover most of the patients charges. I have never experienced health care as good as I was offered in Luxembourg!

[mommysboy]

8 minutes ago, paulbj2 said:

It is entirely mysterious to me, as a European, how it can be that the US spends much, much more, per capita, on healthcare than any other nation on earth and yet Americans are regularly forced into bankruptcy because of medical bills; it seems completely insane.

 

Until recently, I was living in Luxembourg which, according to at least to one respected international researcher, the Legatum Institute, has the best healthcare system in the world. Its citizens also enjoy one of the longest lifespans in the world; maybe the two are related! If you are salaried in Luxembourg, your contribution to the government healthcare budget is deducted directly from your salary and is a straight percentage of your applicable earnings. As a retirée, it is deducted directly from your pension; my contribution was 31€/month after I retired. There are no exclusions for pre-existing conditions, or for accidents when drunk (excluded from most insurance policies to the chagrin of many a holiday-maker here). There are fees that the patient has to pay; for example, a visit to a family doctor is around 39 Euros of which only around 35 Euros is refunded and there is a ceiling, a maximum sum you can be asked to pay for prescriptions and other treatment over the course of a year this is related to your income so that the retired on small pensions and the low paid will be able to recover most of the patients charges. I have never experienced health care as good as I was offered in Luxembourg!

Sounds like a great system.  I hope UK learns from this.  I particularly agree with the small fee to see a doctor.  A big problem for the UK is doctor's waiting rooms clogged with people who don't need to be there, and A and E suffers with drunks most weekends.

[Thaidream]

I would agree that the care you described for citizens/residents of Luxembourg is a model the World could follow. The truth is that America is spending its citizens tax dollars on the largest military budget in the World; spending billions more on 17 intelligence agencies and paying billions more in interest .  The US political system is one of the worst in the World and that is why people like Donald Trump can be elected. I could go on and on and explain it but nothing is going to change until the American people are told the truth about how other countries like Luxembourg can provide quality healthcare to its citizens and residents without breaking the bank. Instead Americans are fed utter drivel and BS about terrorists behind every door and how America is exceptional and has to be made great again.

If you keep spending your citizens precious taxes on weapons of war and support the huge income disparity that has created a system in which 1% of your population are so wealthy the other 99% suffer without basic rights such as healthcare and living in safety- you do not have a great country. What we have now is a government that has come into power by fabricating what really is wrong in America and the World and unfortunately there are enough suffering people who would vote for the devil if change was promised.

[paulbj2]

1 minute ago, mommysboy said:

Sounds like a great system.  I hope UK learns from this.  I particularly agree with the small fee to see a doctor.  A big problem for the UK is doctor's waiting rooms clogged with people who don't need to be there, and A and E suffers with drunks most weekends.

I certainly never objected to paying a modest fee for a visit to my family doctor. Oddly enough, getting prescriptions made up generally, worked out much cheaper than the equivalent in the UK. I certainly never paid as much as I would have done in the UK. The UK adage of "free at the point of delivery" is utter nonsense if you consider prescription charges, patient's charges for dental treatment and almost complete absence of any NHS optical services these days. 

 

My brother was a consultant in "acute medicine" at one of the biggest hospitals in the UK and he said that well in excess of of 80% of the patient admissions to his speciality were directly or indirectly due to excessive alcohol consumption so your remark about drunks clogging up A+E departments can be extended to include clogging up acute medical wards! 

[off road pat]

28 minutes ago, paulbj2 said:

It is entirely mysterious to me, as a European, how it can be that the US spends much, much more, per capita, on healthcare than any other nation on earth and yet Americans are regularly forced into bankruptcy because of medical bills; it seems completely insane.

 

Until recently, I was living in Luxembourg which, according to at least to one respected international researcher, the Legatum Institute, has the best healthcare system in the world. Its citizens also enjoy one of the longest lifespans in the world; maybe the two are related! If you are salaried in Luxembourg, your contribution to the government healthcare budget is deducted directly from your salary and is a straight percentage of your applicable earnings. As a retirée, it is deducted directly from your pension; my contribution was 31€/month after I retired. There are no exclusions for pre-existing conditions, or for accidents when drunk (excluded from most insurance policies to the chagrin of many a holiday-maker here). There are fees that the patient has to pay; for example, a visit to a family doctor is around 39 Euros of which only around 35 Euros is refunded and there is a ceiling, a maximum sum you can be asked to pay for prescriptions and other treatment over the course of a year this is related to your income so that the retired on small pensions and the low paid will be able to recover most of the patients charges. I have never experienced health care as good as I was offered in Luxembourg!

It's exactly the same health care system in Belgium !!!!

[paulbj2]

4 minutes ago, off road pat said:

It's exactly the same health care system in Belgium !!!!

Yes, I lived in Belgium for a while and I found the healthcare system there OK as well, except if you a self employed in which case it is one of the biggest rip-offs in the western world.

 

If you are self employed, the vast sum you have to pay for for cover for "petits risques" is unaffordable for any normal person whilst the contributions that employers have to make to the government on behalf or their employees are simply outrageous.

[cheapskatesam]

Our country (UK) is being robbed blind by foreigners and it's a fact. We'll never get the full facts of health tourism 

 

There are loads and loads of Europeans from the likes of Poland, Romania and Hungary that have cronically serious conditions and they make the decision to come to the UK.. "work" for a few months to become habitually resident then proceed to extract hundreds of thousands of £ worth of operations and drugs from the NHS. This technically is not counted as health tourism because its all "legal" and above board

[paulbj2]

21 minutes ago, cheapskatesam said:

Our country (UK) is being robbed blind by foreigners and it's a fact. We'll never get the full facts of health tourism 

 

There are loads and loads of Europeans from the likes of Poland, Romania and Hungary that have cronically serious conditions and they make the decision to come to the UK.. "work" for a few months to become habitually resident then proceed to extract hundreds of thousands of £ worth of operations and drugs from the NHS. This technically is not counted as health tourism because its all "legal" and above board

What utter nonsense! if, as you say: "We'll never get the full facts of health tourism" then where are you getting your facts from, eh? 

 

If I was a would be health care tourist, I'd choose to go to a country with decent healthcare provision not a creaking heap of sh1t like the NHS!

 

When I worked in Luxembourg, I was entitled to seek healthcare from any country anywhere in the world that I wished and I did indeed get dental treatment in Germany that was paid for by the Luxembourg Caisse Nationale de Santé (CNS) and medical treatment in Thailand that was also paid for by the CNS. Most EU nationals (except the bloody benighted British) are likewise entitled to seek treatment in any other country that they choose and that treatment will be paid for by their equivalent of the CNS. Anyone who obtains employment in any country in the EU will automatically be covered by the local healthcare services as indeed they absolutely should be; in fact anyone who comes from anywhere into the UK (or any other decent country) will automatically become eligible for healthcare the moment they start work.  

 

Stop reading adult comics like the Sun, the Express, and the Daily Mail and open your eyes a bit, eh?

Edited February 27, 2017 by paulbj2

[Gonefortea]

57 minutes ago, paulbj2 said:

What utter nonsense! if, as you say: "We'll never get the full facts of health tourism" then where are you getting your facts from, eh? 

 

If I was a would be health care tourist, I'd choose to go to a country with decent healthcare provision not a creaking heap of sh1t like the NHS!

 

When I worked in Luxembourg, I was entitled to seek healthcare from any country anywhere in the world that I wished and I did indeed get dental treatment in Germany that was paid for by the Luxembourg Caisse Nationale de Santé (CNS) and medical treatment in Thailand that was also paid for by the CNS. Most EU nationals (except the bloody benighted British) are likewise entitled to seek treatment in any other country that they choose and that treatment will be paid for by their equivalent of the CNS. Anyone who obtains employment in any country in the EU will automatically be covered by the local healthcare services as indeed they absolutely should be; in fact anyone who comes from anywhere into the UK (or any other decent country) will automatically become eligible for healthcare the moment they start work.  

 

Stop reading adult comics like the Sun, the Express, and the Daily Mail and open your eyes a bit, eh?

Mostly agree but in my eyes the UK health care is second to none. The dedication of the doctors and the nurses is phenomenal, this is based on first hand knowledge by the way.

[mommysboy]

2 hours ago, cheapskatesam said:

Our country (UK) is being robbed blind by foreigners and it's a fact. We'll never get the full facts of health tourism 

 

There are loads and loads of Europeans from the likes of Poland, Romania and Hungary that have cronically serious conditions and they make the decision to come to the UK.. "work" for a few months to become habitually resident then proceed to extract hundreds of thousands of £ worth of operations and drugs from the NHS. This technically is not counted as health tourism because its all "legal" and above board

 

This is true.

 

However, the NHS receives 7% of GDP, which is much lower than comparable countries.

 

It is simply underfunded.

 

This translates as tens of billions, whereas so called health tourism is less than a billion.

Edited February 27, 2017 by mommysboy

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, Gonefortea said:

Mostly agree but in my eyes the UK health care is second to none. The dedication of the doctors and the nurses is phenomenal, this is based on first hand knowledge by the way.

We spend much less on healthcare. I agree about doctors and nurses in UK, and many of them are foreign.  Where would we be without their dedication?

[paulbj2]

10 minutes ago, Gonefortea said:

Mostly agree but in my eyes the UK health care is second to none. The dedication of the doctors and the nurses is phenomenal, this is based on first hand knowledge by the way.

Interesting! I have experienced "first hand" the health care systems in 7 different countries. The UK and four other countries where I have lived and worked plus of course Thailand and lastly Germany where I was treated but never lived. The best I have experienced is Luxembourg. Presumably, you, yourself, also have wide ranging experience of healthcare systems other than the UK; what countries have you lived in and why do you think their healthcare systems are not up to the standard of the NHS? What makes you insult medical staff in other healthcare systems by implying that, compared to the staff in the NHS, they are less dedicated to their patients?

 

One of the criteria that I would judge it on is availability. For example:

Can I see a GP at any time, day or night, weekday or weekend without an appointment? In the UK for a huge percentage of patients the answer is no. In Luxembourg the answer is yes.

Can I easily find a dentist who offers treatment under the healthcare system. In the UK the answer is often no or there are long waiting lists. In Luxembourg, the answer is yes, of course, all dentists offer treatment under the healthcare system.

Are there long waiting lists for routine surgery and is such surgery regularly cancelled due to a lack of beds for the patient to recover in? 

In the UK, surgeons often spend hours every day twiddling their thumbs because there is no bed available so they can't operate on scheduled patients whose surgery has in many cases already been cancelled on one or more previous occasions. In Luxembourg that virtually never happens as their hospital bed occupancy rate is only just over 70% whereas in the UK many hospitals run at close to 100% occupancy. The same applies to intensive care beds.

Can I easily and quickly get an appointment to see a specialist if I need one. In the UK, no! In Luxembourg, Yes! I needed a non-urgent appointment  to see a cardiologist for an "aged 50+ routine heart check" (something the NHS doesn't do because they can't afford it). I was offered an appointment two days after my doctor referred me; I wasn't able to get time off work at such short notice so I settled for one ten days later. My brother, who is a senior consultant physician in the NHS, said that in his hospital, I would have waited between 6 and 18 months for such an appointment.

 

I could go on for several pages but let's leave it at that, eh.

 

Do I know anything about the NHS? Yes, my brother spent his whole career as a hospital doctor ending up as a senior consultant in one of the largest hospitals in the UK, my niece was a nurse in that same hospital, one of my nephews is a manager in the NHS and another is senior manager in the Blood Transfusion service. My father worked for the NHS from its formation in 1947 to the day he died, my mother was a nurse and even I have worked for it! Why, you could almost call the NHS the family business.

 

http://www.wort.lu/en/lifestyle/legatum-institute-luxembourg-has-best-healthcare-in-the-world-says-study-587ccd88a5e74263e13a9127

 

 

[paulbj2]

15 hours ago, Thaidream said:

Absolute nonsense- everyone can have insurance at a reasonable cost if the government of any country let's its resident- that means expats buy into it. Your vision is not only heartless and cruel- it shows the selfishness that so many people now exhibit toward their fellow man.

In addition- many insurance companies do cancel policies after a catastrophic illness and if not raise the rates so high that a person can no longer afford to pay it. I know, I have had the experience with a very large American insurance company. Private Insurance is a scam- their goal is to make as much money as possible off the misery of others, That is why Healthcare must be a human right and administered as such by Governments. Private insurance needs to be put out of business.

The facts are plain: as we get older, the demands we place on the healthcare system tend to increase almost exponentially. So, even if the Thai government were to allow retired "farangs" to join the Thai healthcare system, the rate at which they would need to be charged for that privilege would necessarily be very high indeed. To do otherwise would be grossly unfair to the rest of the Thai population who will have been paying in from an early age when their drain on the system will, on average,  have been negligible.

 

 

[paulbj2]

22 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

 

This is true.

 

However, the NHS receives 7% of GDP, which is much lower than comparable countries.

 

It is simply underfunded.

 

This translates as tens of billions, whereas so called health tourism is less than a billion.

How do you know "this is true"? Where are you getting your "data" from? Farage, the Daily Mail, the Express, the Sun, some right wing Tory fascist?

 

What you are saying is that you agree that it's OK to accuse Poles and Romanians of coming to Britain to exploit the NHS based on nothing; no data , no evidence, nothing. Personally, I don't think that's OK! 

[mommysboy]

3 minutes ago, paulbj2 said:

The facts are plain: as we get older, the demands we place on the healthcare system tend to increase almost exponentially. So, even if the Thai government were to allow retired "farangs" to join the Thai healthcare system, the rate at which they would need to be charged for that privilege would necessarily be very high indeed. To do otherwise would be grossly unfair to the rest of the Thai population who will have been paying in from an early age when their drain on the system will, on average,  have been negligible.

 

 

 

Thais are treated for free in the UK.  They shouldn't be, but the rules tend not to be enforced because the NHS has people who want to help people in any way they can, and not all Brits are as the tabloids describe.

 

But one important point that is being missed: Thai Government Hospitals don't charge much, and although the surroundings are less than salubrious, it is routine to receive good treatment up to a standard.  If someone has some money it should be possible to be patched up, and cured of most basic ailments, and I believe there are also cancer specialists, etc.

 

I went to Surat Than Hospital today.  Firstly, the more expensive private hospital did not offer specialist eye treatment- a designer hospital then!

 

I got a quality eye check up and some medicine for 400 baht. The diagnosis corresponded with that offered recently in the UK.  Yes the surroundings were not so good but who cares!  Moreover the doctor was able to diagnoze a dry eye problem I have as 'surfer's eye'; thankfully mild, as is the glaucoma in the left eye that he correctly identified.

 

I am booked in next week for more exhaustive tests.  I doubt it will be more than 2000 baht total, and any medicine more than 500 baht a month.,

 

So it's not as if we paupers are high and dry.  Really, I would say to anyone living in Thailand without 100,000 baht: look it's time to go home because you are living in peril.

[Andrew Dwyer]

medical records get removed from the GP after a few years

you need to re-register and request your records from a central store

I lived outside the uk for 20 years, still got paid by a uk company but was classed as non resident for tax purposes.

Last year I wanted the medical certificate for an O-A visa , went to my gp fully expecting to have to register again but she treated me like I'd never been away.

I guess what kept me on the books was I was still paying national insurance all the time ?

Sent from my iPhone with the usual amount of sincerity and sarcasm [emoji4]

[mommysboy]

24 minutes ago, paulbj2 said:

How do you know "this is true"? Where are you getting your "data" from? Farage, the Daily Mail, the Express, the Sun, some right wing Tory fascist?

 

What you are saying is that you agree that it's OK to accuse Poles and Romanians of coming to Britain to exploit the NHS based on nothing; no data , no evidence, nothing. Personally, I don't think that's OK! 

BBC Radio 4.

 

Also I was saying that so called abuse by foreigners isn't such a big problem. 

 

Underfunding is the main issue- simple as that.  There wouldn't be such a big problem otherwize, would there?

Edited February 27, 2017 by mommysboy

[paulbj2]

3 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

 

Thais are treated for free in the UK.  They shouldn't be, but the rules tend not to be enforced because the NHS has people who want to help people in any way they can, and not all Brits are as the tabloids describe.

 

But one important point that is being missed: Thai Government Hospitals don't charge much, and although the surroundings are less than salubrious, it is routine to receive good treatment up to a standard.  If someone has some money it should be possible to be patched up, and cured of most basic ailments, and I believe there are also cancer specialists, etc.

 

I went to Surat Than Hospital today.  Firstly, the more expensive private hospital did not offer specialist eye treatment- a designer hospital then!

 

I got a quality eye check up and some medicine for 400 baht. The diagnosis corresponded with that offered recently in the UK.  Yes the surroundings were not so good but who cares!  Moreover the doctor was able to diagnoze a dry eye problem I have as 'surfer's eye'; thankfully mild, as is the glaucoma in the left eye that he correctly identified.

 

I am booked in next week for more exhaustive tests.  I doubt it will be more than 2000 baht total, and any medicine more than 500 baht a month.,

 

So it's not as if we paupers are high and dry.  Really, I would say to anyone living in Thailand without 100,000 baht: look it's time to go home because you are living in peril.

"Thais are treated for free in the UK". Who told you that? If I understand the situation correctly, Thais will not be granted a visa to enter the UK unless they have medical insurance to prevent them being a burden on the NHS.

 

As a matter of interest, I was recently treated in the UK for free when I shouldn't have been. However, I was entitled to treatment as I was subject to CNS insurance in Luxembourg but when I offered them my Social Security card which would, if they had bothered to take down the details, have enabled them to claim back the cost of my treatment from Luxembourg, they waved it away with the words "Oh don't worry, we'll take your word for it". This idiotic as the NHS is desperately short of money but they are turning away free money that they are entitled to claim!

[mommysboy]

1 minute ago, Andrew Dwyer said:

I lived outside the uk for 20 years, still got paid by a uk company but was classed as non resident for tax purposes.

Last year I wanted the medical certificate for an O-A visa , went to my gp fully expecting to have to register again but she treated me like I'd never been away.

I guess what kept me on the books was I was still paying national insurance all the time.


Sent from my iPhone with the usual amount of sincerity and sarcasm

It's normally about 5 years, and can be about postcode, ie, if you fall within new boundaries or don't.

 

I don't think NI contributions were a factor.

[paulbj2]

8 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

BBC Radio 4

Could you be a tad more specific - programme - name of the person speaking. Not everyone interviewed on the BBC tells the truth; see Nigel Farage, Boris Johnson, that foul little creep Gove and others for further details!

[mommysboy]

13 minutes ago, paulbj2 said:

"Thais are treated for free in the UK". Who told you that? If I understand the situation correctly, Thais will not be granted a visa to enter the UK unless they have medical insurance to prevent them being a burden on the NHS.

 

As a matter of interest, I was recently treated in the UK for free when I shouldn't have been. However, I was entitled to treatment as I was subject to CNS insurance in Luxembourg but when I offered them my Social Security card which would, if they had bothered to take down the details, have enabled them to claim back the cost of my treatment from Luxembourg, they waved it away with the words "Oh don't worry, we'll take your word for it". This idiotic as the NHS is desperately short of money but they are turning away free money that they are entitled to claim!

 

Personal experience told me that. 

[mommysboy]

5 minutes ago, paulbj2 said:

Could you be a tad more specific - programme - name of the person speaking. Not everyone interviewed on the BBC tells the truth; see Nigel Farage, Boris Johnson, that foul little creep Gove and others for further details!

I can't. It's something I listened to in passing.  I remmber it wasn't a politician- it was a former senior administrator. Then a comparative chart was in a newspaper- the Guardian I think.  Then the family were sitting round the table one evening and it seemed that was common knowledge.

 

But look, it's underfunded isn't it?  What other explanations?

[paulbj2]

1 minute ago, mommysboy said:

I can't. It's something I listened to in passing.  I remmber it wasn't a politician- it was a former senior administrator. Then a comparative chart was in a newspaper- the Guardian I think.  Then the family were sitting round the table one evening and it seemed that was common knowledge.

 

But look, it's underfunded isn't it?  What other explanations?

I did wonder if you would come up with anything verifiable and I thought probably not!

 

The underfunding issue isn't as clear cut as you might think. Belgium has a world renowned health care system with outcomes for cancer sufferers that are the envy of the world but they don't spend that much more than the UK on healthcare, maybe they have a system that is much more efficient than the UK?

 

Luxembourg does spend a lot more than the UK as do several other countries, notably Switzerland, Sweden, the Netherlands and Norway. However, France, a country noted for the excellence of their healthcare system, and that is something I can vouch for as I have lived there, doesn't spend significantly more than the UK but they seem to get a lot more "bang for their buck"!

 

[mommysboy]

28 minutes ago, paulbj2 said:

I did wonder if you would come up with anything verifiable and I thought probably not!

 

The underfunding issue isn't as clear cut as you might think. Belgium has a world renowned health care system with outcomes for cancer sufferers that are the envy of the world but they don't spend that much more than the UK on healthcare, maybe they have a system that is much more efficient than the UK?

 

Luxembourg does spend a lot more than the UK as do several other countries, notably Switzerland, Sweden, the Netherlands and Norway. However, France, a country noted for the excellence of their healthcare system, and that is something I can vouch for as I have lived there, doesn't spend significantly more than the UK but they seem to get a lot more "bang for their buck"!

 

 

 

That's what was on reputable sources: take it or leave it. Perhaps I was loose on what the figure was, but it was a comparative figure between countries.  It was just something in general media.  Obviously I didn't take notes.

 

The  table still supports the general argument- from this chart we can see UK spends 3448 Euro per inhabitant, whereas many other similar countries are spending more- from Belgium at 3772 per inhabitant to Switzerland at 7361.  Luxembourg spends 5556.  In fact it can be said UK is rock bottom out of peer countries.

 

Yes France has the same problem as UK.  I'll take your word for it that they are coping better, but coping isn't much cop really.

 

It's clearly underperforming as you yourself have said.

 

What is the problem then?  If not lack of funding? 

 

It's not health tourism.  There has already been a lot of cutbacks and reorganization.  Staff don't get much I think.

 

You can't get a quart out of a pint pot.

 

Why is it then?  The only thing I can think is that we have far more obese, and drunken people, and perhaps generally neglect our health.

 

Edited after reviewing GDP figures.  Rather depressingly I can see a possible answer: UK is no longer a first world country.  WE do spend 10% which is in line with most countries, it's just that our GDP must now resemble a second world nation.

Edited February 27, 2017 by mommysboy

[Gonefortea]

6 hours ago, paulbj2 said:

Interesting! I have experienced "first hand" the health care systems in 7 different countries. The UK and four other countries where I have lived and worked plus of course Thailand and lastly Germany where I was treated but never lived. The best I have experienced is Luxembourg. Presumably, you, yourself, also have wide ranging experience of healthcare systems other than the UK; what countries have you lived in and why do you think their healthcare systems are not up to the standard of the NHS? What makes you insult medical staff in other healthcare systems by implying that, compared to the staff in the NHS, they are less dedicated to their patients?

 

One of the criteria that I would judge it on is availability. For example:

Can I see a GP at any time, day or night, weekday or weekend without an appointment? In the UK for a huge percentage of patients the answer is no. In Luxembourg the answer is yes.

Can I easily find a dentist who offers treatment under the healthcare system. In the UK the answer is often no or there are long waiting lists. In Luxembourg, the answer is yes, of course, all dentists offer treatment under the healthcare system.

Are there long waiting lists for routine surgery and is such surgery regularly cancelled due to a lack of beds for the patient to recover in? 

In the UK, surgeons often spend hours every day twiddling their thumbs because there is no bed available so they can't operate on scheduled patients whose surgery has in many cases already been cancelled on one or more previous occasions. In Luxembourg that virtually never happens as their hospital bed occupancy rate is only just over 70% whereas in the UK many hospitals run at close to 100% occupancy. The same applies to intensive care beds.

Can I easily and quickly get an appointment to see a specialist if I need one. In the UK, no! In Luxembourg, Yes! I needed a non-urgent appointment  to see a cardiologist for an "aged 50+ routine heart check" (something the NHS doesn't do because they can't afford it). I was offered an appointment two days after my doctor referred me; I wasn't able to get time off work at such short notice so I settled for one ten days later. My brother, who is a senior consultant physician in the NHS, said that in his hospital, I would have waited between 6 and 18 months for such an appointment.

 

I could go on for several pages but let's leave it at that, eh.

 

Do I know anything about the NHS? Yes, my brother spent his whole career as a hospital doctor ending up as a senior consultant in one of the largest hospitals in the UK, my niece was a nurse in that same hospital, one of my nephews is a manager in the NHS and another is senior manager in the Blood Transfusion service. My father worked for the NHS from its formation in 1947 to the day he died, my mother was a nurse and even I have worked for it! Why, you could almost call the NHS the family business.

 

http://www.wort.lu/en/lifestyle/legatum-institute-luxembourg-has-best-healthcare-in-the-world-says-study-587ccd88a5e74263e13a9127

 

 

I have lived and been treated in many countries I never implied anything. I said first hand experience.  I have no idea why you posted all this you obviously didn't read my post correctly. I really don't care if your brother/sister/dog worked at hospitals I said Ino my first hand experience it's second to none. My experience ok. As for dentist in wherever and eye care wherever. I just pay to go private easy no waiting lists ect ect ect.

So please leave me out of your obvious attempt to rubbish a health care system that has not only looked after all of my family indeed still does and when the chips were down did me proud. Thankyou

[elektrified]

I will never understand why foreigners come to Thailand to ride a motorcycle!

[Gonefortea]

2 minutes ago, elektrified said:

I will never understand why foreigners come to Thailand to ride a motorcycle!

? Why not. Not everyone wants to go to a foreign country and sit on a beach. Some myself included love to jump on a bike and explore.

[LannaGuy]

10 minutes ago, Gonefortea said:

? Why not. Not everyone wants to go to a foreign country and sit on a beach. Some myself included love to jump on a bike and explore.

it's not worth the risk.... believe me... sitting in a hospital bed (or worse) paralysed with little money to get the best treatment and your whole life ruined?  forget it, sell the bike and find another less dangerous hobby and if you don't... good luck coz you are going to need heaps of it

Edited February 28, 2017 by LannaGuy