Sturgeon says UK PM May nudging Scotland towards second referendum

[webfact]

Sturgeon says UK PM May nudging Scotland towards second referendum

 

Scotland's First Minister Nicola Sturgeon attends the Brexit debate in the Scottish Parliament Edinburgh Scotland, Britain January 17, 2017. REUTERS/Russell Cheyne/Files

 

LONDON (Reuters) - The "sheer intransigence" of the British government over Brexit could lead to a second Scottish independence referendum, First Minister Nicola Sturgeon said on Tuesday, warning time was running out for the country to change course.

 

Writing in the Times newspaper, Sturgeon said Britain's vote to leave the European Union had changed the landscape since Scotland last held a referendum on its independence, voting by a 10-point margin to remain a part of the United Kingdom in 2014.

 

"If an independence referendum does arise, it will not be down to bad faith on the part of the Scottish government, but to sheer intransigence on the part of the UK government," Sturgeon said. "It is not too late for the UK government to change course, but time is running out."

 

While voters in England and Wales strongly supported leaving the EU in last June's referendum, Scots overwhelmingly backed staying inside the bloc.

 

Speculation about a possible second Scottish secession vote has increased in the last week with media reports suggesting nationalists were preparing to call for a referendum as early as next month to coincide with Prime Minister Theresa May's plan to formally trigger Britain's exit from the European Union.

 

Sources told Reuters last week that the semi-autonomous Scottish government, which is run by Sturgeon's pro-independence Scottish National Party, was increasingly confident it could win a second independence vote.

 

On Monday, a British government spokesman said the threat of a new Scottish referendum was creating unnecessary uncertainty and division.

 

"The question is not whether there could be a second referendum, it is whether there should be one - and the clear answer to that is no," a spokesman for May said.

 

(Reporting by Kate Holton; editing by Michael Holden)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2017-02-28

[daveAustin]

Quote

It is not too late for the UK government to change course, but time is running out

Arrogant old sow. So many things could be said here (ungrateful and why are they're special etc), but she and those of her ilk are best ignored. Having said that, would love to see an independent Scotland, it'd be like a huge sigh of relief for everyone else, sort of like a split from an acrimonious marriage or the removal of ball&chain for a lifer on death row. 

[RuamRudy]

30 minutes ago, daveAustin said:

Arrogant old sow. So many things could be said here (ungrateful and why are they're special etc), but she and those of her ilk are best ignored. Having said that, would love to see an independent Scotland, it'd be like a huge sigh of relief for everyone else, sort of like a split from an acrimonious marriage or the removal of ball&chain for a lifer on death row. 

Ungrateful for what, exactly? 

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, daveAustin said:

Arrogant old sow. So many things could be said here (ungrateful and why are they're special etc), but she and those of her ilk are best ignored. Having said that, would love to see an independent Scotland, it'd be like a huge sigh of relief for everyone else, sort of like a split from an acrimonious marriage or the removal of ball&chain for a lifer on death row. 

That's rather unpleasant 

 

And in line with so much English discourse now....

[steve187]

she talks s**t and is in this for the limelight, Scotland would fail as an independant country, they are dependant on the english tax payers, they take far more than they give.

 

rebuild the wall and put in a one way turnstile.

[NanLaew]

When Salmond was the ringmaster for the last 'once in a lifetime' referendum, he had (falling) oil prices as the bulwark for his vision of Scottish wealth and self sufficiency. With the moribund North Sea oil and gas industry, what has Sturgeon suggested as Scotland's collateral for a second tilt at this windmill? AFAIK, some EU members have said that pre-existing membership would not be grandfathered and in the unlikely event that Scotland leaves the Union, it would have to re-apply. Is that still the case?

 

Going back to Salmond's independence campaign; was there any consideration that the following Brexit vote might go the 'wrong way' as far as the SNP were concerned or were they totally blinded by their own self-importance (north of the border)? Brexit was a close call but maybe they forgot to consider that the rest of the Union were voting and not just remnant Scots and displaced or itinerant foreigners with some degree of voter eligibility handily foisted on them?

 

The only thing that the 'shock' result of the Brexit vote has given the SNP is loads of false hope. With Dugdale and Scottish Labour still sitting on the fence after Corbyn panned her plan for a federal UK as a soft option to independence at the recent conference in Perth, I don't see the overwhelming vote to leave that the SNP thinks is already there just waiting for a ballot paper to check.

Edited February 28, 2017 by NanLaew

[Grouse]

Conditions have substantially changed since the first referendum both because of Brexit and the ramp up of anti-Scottish hate.

 

I think the Scots have an absolute right to choose their destiny

 

Personally, I see Scotland doing just fine as an independent state with membership of a union of civilised European countries.

[lungbing]

The hatred is all one way, and it's anti-English hatred from the Scots.  We are just exasperated with the Scots, we don't hate them.  The Scots have already exercised their right to choose their destiny, and they chose to stay with the UK.    What do you want, best out of three or five or seven?

[NanLaew]

22 minutes ago, lungbing said:

The hatred is all one way, and it's anti-English hatred from the Scots.  We are just exasperated with the Scots, we don't hate them.  The Scots have already exercised their right to choose their destiny, and they chose to stay with the UK.    What do you want, best out of three or five or seven?

No, but an upset at Twickenham a week on Saturday would be acceptable.

[RuamRudy]

The hatred is all one way, and it's anti-English hatred from the Scots.  We are just exasperated with the Scots, we don't hate them.  The Scots have already exercised their right to choose their destiny, and they chose to stay with the UK.    What do you want, best out of three or five or seven?

I feel a touch of deja vu coming on...

Please show evidence of 'anti-English hatred'. Anything will do, any example welcome - I have asked this question repeatedly on TV and been left wanting each and every time.

In contrast, read through the current In Your Face Scottish independence threads and try to count the Scot bashing and compare that to the English bashing on the same thread. Then come back and whine about 'anti-English hatred'.

[emilymat]

 All I know, and it ain't much, is that the UK Parliament would have to sanction a second referendum. It seems unlikely that would be the decision.

 

I suppose, the Scottish government would have the power to authorise an 'advisory' referendum - but that would be an awful risk, given they could lose it.

 

It's jus tlike the papers speculating on Teresa May calling a snap election, after the Labour debacle in Cumbria. She simply cannot do that under the fixed term parliament legislation. The press ought to know better.  Mind you, we are now being steered towards who knows where, by an un-elected remainer prime minister who yearns to out ThatcherThatcher, in the minds of the electorate.

 

I have some sympathy with the Scots, given I am an avid 'remoaner' and regarded, by many, as some sort of traitor regading  the 'will of the  people' (That's what my daughter says anyway) . If I were in favour of an independent Scotland I might well be eager to test the will of the Scots people, in the light of the cataclysmic changes to the situation since the last referendum in Scotland. Constitutionally, I have no idea whether Scotland could remain in the EC were a succesful referendum held before the UK left, or would they have to re-apply, which I think they would, and then be vetoed by Spain, among others.

 

The reality is that it's all a bl**dy mess now.  Its a tough call if you are a Scot in favour of  independence.

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, lungbing said:

The hatred is all one way, and it's anti-English hatred from the Scots.  We are just exasperated with the Scots, we don't hate them.  The Scots have already exercised their right to choose their destiny, and they chose to stay with the UK.    What do you want, best out of three or five or seven?

All the evidence I have seen as anti Scottish and that includes this forum.

 

This best of 3 nonsense is just facile. Conditions change

 

Are You a Scot? What do you care?

 

It seems to me that the English particularly have enough bile stored up to spew over everybody. Take a little time to consider who is really responsible for this situation

[Flustered]

Don't you just love the adorable "Mary Doll" Nesbitt  wannabe.

 

She is the most deluded female I have ever seen.

 

She does realise that it takes an act of Parliament to have another referendum and she has as much chance of getting that through as Tony Blair has of a return to Labour leadership.

 

In this one, Labour would support the Tories as they need to gain seats back in Scotland if they wish to become a potential Government party again. Mind you, it is in the Tories interest to get rid of Scotland. In fact it's in all of our interests to get rid of Scotland.

 

Nope, won't happen Mary Doll.

[Chicog]

The majority of Scots voted to stay in the Union.

The Majority of the Union voted to leave the EU and establish their own footing.

Only the desperate fishwife keeps conflating the two, probably because she's seen the Irish profit from enormous EU handouts over the years.

If the silly moo looked a bit closer, she'd see that the EU gravy train is long gone.

 

She should shut it.

[NanLaew]

9 hours ago, emilymat said:

If I were in favour of an independent Scotland I might well be eager to test the will of the Scots people, in the light of the cataclysmic changes to the situation since the last referendum in Scotland.

Cataclysmic for who? The Scottish Labour party?

 

If Scottish Labour wants to survive against the SNP, it needs to start listening to Tony Blair

 

BTW, has there been any recent opinion polls north of the border regarding a new independence push? Is there any notable groundswell of public opinion that drives what the SNP claims they are entitled to? Most of these threads just recycle what Sturgeon is saying and doing ad nauseum but is there any evidence that the Scottish electorate have the brave heart for this?

Edited February 28, 2017 by NanLaew

[NanLaew]

11 hours ago, Grouse said:

Conditions have substantially changed since the first referendum both because of Brexit and the ramp up of anti-Scottish hate.

 

I think the Scots have an absolute right to choose their destiny

 

Personally, I see Scotland doing just fine as an independent state with membership of a union of civilised European countries.

This change is what Sturgeon bases her 'cast iron mandate' for a second referendum on. Beyond the keyboard jousting on TV, I would prefer to discount the ant-Scot and anti-English 'hate' as all a bit of a distraction. I haven't read about petrol being poured through letterboxes or doors daubed with 'get oot!' Sticks and stones and all that.

 

I agree they have the absolute right to chose their own destiny. I may go as far to say that it is democratically undeniable. But looking at the simple economics of it all, is it sensible?

 

I don't think that 'doing just fine' is going to cut it in a rapidly changing world of less centrist and more self-interested governments. The EU 'school' may see more significant challenges to it's current track record in doling out money for the new bairns to bring them up to scratch and may have to fundamentally change itself... just as Scotland is trying to get settled in. Then, one may have greater difficulty in picking one's schoolyard chums but if it does go that way, having a firm handle on east European languages may be an asset.

[ddavidovsky]

12 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Please show evidence of 'anti-English hatred'. Anything will do, any example welcome - I have asked this question repeatedly on TV and been left wanting each and every time.

 

 

I also don't think it's a serious issue - more of a friendly rivalry, as there is between many nations.

 

However, there are cases:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglophobia#Scotland

[NanLaew]

9 minutes ago, ddavidovsky said:

 

I also don't think it's a serious issue - more of a friendly rivalry, as there is between many nations.

 

However, there are cases:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglophobia#Scotland

Try the following link.

 

Not so much evidence of rampant anti-English sentiment in the original article but some of the readers comments are more accusatory.

 

Then again, that was last years "news".

Edited March 1, 2017 by NanLaew

[RuamRudy]

14 hours ago, steve187 said:

she talks s**t and is in this for the limelight, Scotland would fail as an independant country, they are dependant on the english tax payers, they take far more than they give.

 

rebuild the wall and put in a one way turnstile.

 

Your lack of understanding of the relative contributions to the UK exchequer is woeful, but I fear that you prefer ignorance over fact. If I am wrong, however, and you would like to learn how Scottish taxpayers subsidise the majority of England, please let me know - I would be more than happy to enlighten you. 

[RuamRudy]

11 hours ago, emilymat said:

 All I know, and it ain't much, is that the UK Parliament would have to sanction a second referendum. It seems unlikely that would be the decision.

 

I suppose, the Scottish government would have the power to authorise an 'advisory' referendum - but that would be an awful risk, given they could lose it.

 

It's jus tlike the papers speculating on Teresa May calling a snap election, after the Labour debacle in Cumbria. She simply cannot do that under the fixed term parliament legislation. The press ought to know better.  Mind you, we are now being steered towards who knows where, by an un-elected remainer prime minister who yearns to out ThatcherThatcher, in the minds of the electorate.

 

I have some sympathy with the Scots, given I am an avid 'remoaner' and regarded, by many, as some sort of traitor regading  the 'will of the  people' (That's what my daughter says anyway) . If I were in favour of an independent Scotland I might well be eager to test the will of the Scots people, in the light of the cataclysmic changes to the situation since the last referendum in Scotland. Constitutionally, I have no idea whether Scotland could remain in the EC were a succesful referendum held before the UK left, or would they have to re-apply, which I think they would, and then be vetoed by Spain, among others.

 

The reality is that it's all a bl**dy mess now.  Its a tough call if you are a Scot in favour of  independence.

 

It is certainly something that any party would use to its advantage - recent polls have shown no drop in support for independence with some suggesting a slight increase, and this without a new referendum on the table. If the SNP was to move to a war footing, it is not inconceivable that, given the dire state of UK politics and the unpopularity of Brexit north of the border, the groundswell of support could firmly tip the balance in favour of independence. 

Of course, the PM could dig her heels in and refuse to acknowledge this but that would only be further grist for the independence mill; the likely necessary Westminster intervention in Scots law to amend the Scotland Act 1998 against the will of the Scottish government will also be a great propaganda coup for the pro-indy side. I almost feel sorry for TM in this case - she is on a hiding to nothing. 

[RuamRudy]

10 hours ago, Chicog said:

The majority of Scots voted to stay in the Union.

The Majority of the Union voted to leave the EU and establish their own footing.

Only the desperate fishwife keeps conflating the two, probably because she's seen the Irish profit from enormous EU handouts over the years.

If the silly moo looked a bit closer, she'd see that the EU gravy train is long gone.

 

She should shut it.

It depends upon how you define "Scots'. The majority of people who were born in Scotland and voted in the referendum voted to leave the UK. The balance was tipped in favour of the UK by those who were born outside. Of course, as Sadiq Khan failed to understand (or did he simply want to stir the sh!t) we do not consider those latter votes as any less important - Scottish independence is not the same as Brexit, and is not driven by the xenophobia that blights that issue. We just need to work harder to reassure our immigrant countrymen that an independent Scotland will thrive much more than if it remains within the UK. Thankfully Brexit and TM are helping us daily on that front. 

 

The rest of your post is typical of those who fail to understand Scottish independence, and lash out with playground insults because they have nothing of substance at hand. Why not try to educate yourself on the motivations and principals rather than simply sitting back and hurling predictable and ineffective stones?

[RuamRudy]

45 minutes ago, ddavidovsky said:

 

I also don't think it's a serious issue - more of a friendly rivalry, as there is between many nations.

 

However, there are cases:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglophobia#Scotland

 

Unfortunately that swivel eyed loons come in all shapes, sizes and nationalities is a fact of life. 

 

The constant cry that Scottish independence is driven by anti-english sentiment would be laughable if it was not so offensive and ridiculously narcissistic. Can I suggest, without fear of being called a racist, that those English who constantly repeat this canard are merely struggling to accept the fact that the world stopped revolving around them half a century ago?

[RuamRudy]

44 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

 

 

Not so much evidence of rampant anti-English sentiment in the original article but some of the readers comments are more accusatory.

 

Thank you. I hope we have settled the matter now.

[rockingrobin]

12 hours ago, emilymat said:

 All I know, and it ain't much, is that the UK Parliament would have to sanction a second referendum. It seems unlikely that would be the decision.

 

I suppose, the Scottish government would have the power to authorise an 'advisory' referendum - but that would be an awful risk, given they could lose it.

 

It's jus tlike the papers speculating on Teresa May calling a snap election, after the Labour debacle in Cumbria. She simply cannot do that under the fixed term parliament legislation. The press ought to know better.  Mind you, we are now being steered towards who knows where, by an un-elected remainer prime minister who yearns to out ThatcherThatcher, in the minds of the electorate.

 

I have some sympathy with the Scots, given I am an avid 'remoaner' and regarded, by many, as some sort of traitor regading  the 'will of the  people' (That's what my daughter says anyway) . If I were in favour of an independent Scotland I might well be eager to test the will of the Scots people, in the light of the cataclysmic changes to the situation since the last referendum in Scotland. Constitutionally, I have no idea whether Scotland could remain in the EC were a succesful referendum held before the UK left, or would they have to re-apply, which I think they would, and then be vetoed by Spain, among others.

 

The reality is that it's all a bl**dy mess now.  Its a tough call if you are a Scot in favour of  independence.

Act of UK Parliament not required, Scotland Act section 30 request would be a possibility

[steve187]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Your lack of understanding of the relative contributions to the UK exchequer is woeful, but I fear that you prefer ignorance over fact. If I am wrong, however, and you would like to learn how Scottish taxpayers subsidise the majority of England, please let me know - I would be more than happy to enlighten you. 

are you saying they are not taking more than they give, and for that lack of giving they get more, free prescriptions and higher education.

 

from the bbc -   So, even by the most generous measure, Scotland raised £53.1bn in 2012/13 and spent £65.2bn, leaving the country £12.1bn short.

[gamini]

I hope Scotland becomes independent and I will get a Scottish passport and be able to remain a member of the EU. Hopefully Northern Ireland and Wales will do the same. Britain will be no longer be the United Kingdom and British passports will probably change from United Kingdom to simply English.

[RuamRudy]

4 minutes ago, steve187 said:

are you saying they are not taking more than they give, and for that lack of giving they get more, free prescriptions and higher education.

 

from the bbc -   So, even by the most generous measure, Scotland raised £53.1bn in 2012/13 and spent £65.2bn, leaving the country £12.1bn short.

 

I am saying that every region in the UK, with the exception of the City of London, takes more than it gives. How the Scottish government chooses allocate its funding is down to it. If you want free prescriptions, stop handing power to the Tories, simple as that.

 

The UK runs a deficit (as does every other country) so the UK finances are short - that is not down to Scotland alone. 

[nahkit]

59 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

It depends upon how you define "Scots'. The majority of people who were born in Scotland and voted in the referendum voted to leave the UK. The balance was tipped in favour of the UK by those who were born outside. Of course, as Sadiq Khan failed to understand (or did he simply want to stir the sh!t) we do not consider those latter votes as any less important - Scottish independence is not the same as Brexit, and is not driven by the xenophobia that blights that issue. We just need to work harder to reassure our immigrant countrymen that an independent Scotland will thrive much more than if it remains within the UK. Thankfully Brexit and TM are helping us daily on that front. 

 

The rest of your post is typical of those who fail to understand Scottish independence, and lash out with playground insults because they have nothing of substance at hand. Why not try to educate yourself on the motivations and principals rather than simply sitting back and hurling predictable and ineffective stones?

"The balance was tipped in favour of the UK by those who were born outside"  - I hadn't realised that those votes were counted seperately.

 

"we do not consider those latter votes as any less important" - so why mention them as being different then?

 

[RuamRudy]

11 minutes ago, nahkit said:

"The balance was tipped in favour of the UK by those who were born outside"  - I hadn't realised that those votes were counted seperately.

 

"we do not consider those latter votes as any less important" - so why mention them as being different then?

 

They weren't - this is based upon research and polling. 

 

I mentioned it because it was relevant to my correction of a mistake made in the OP. Try to read the context of a post rather than trying to latch onto the first little crack you think might give you an edge. 

Edited March 1, 2017 by RuamRudy
missed a word

[ddavidovsky]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Unfortunately that swivel eyed loons come in all shapes, sizes and nationalities is a fact of life. 

 

The constant cry that Scottish independence is driven by anti-english sentiment would be laughable if it was not so offensive and ridiculously narcissistic. Can I suggest, without fear of being called a racist, that those English who constantly repeat this canard are merely struggling to accept the fact that the world stopped revolving around them half a century ago?

So in being proven wrong you not only harden your opinion, but then actually display anti-English sentiment in your own post. Nice one.