Sturgeon says UK PM May nudging Scotland towards second referendum

[Belzybob]

The only 'nudging' is that old kipper stirring up populist sentiments.

[RuamRudy]

6 minutes ago, ddavidovsky said:

So in being proven wrong you not only harden your opinion, but then actually display anti-English sentiment in your own post. Nice one.

 

I don't accept either of those statements. Firstly, nowhere, on any thread here has anyone demonstrated anything that could be said to remotely back up the claim that Scottish independence was driven by anti-English sentiment. Even the link you gave referred to nothing other than a handful of anecdotal or one-off incidents. If that is sufficient to convince you, your burden of proof is set very low.

 

I am actually laughing at your gall to suggest that my psychobabble was anti-English. Not a great effort on your part, and very wide of the mark. I think there is no doubt that there are people who believe in English exceptionalism. I simply point out that their desire to claim that Scottish independence is actually an attempt to stick two fingers up at the English is narcissistic in the extreme. Independence is about what is best for Scotland, not about how to show disdain for the English.  

 

 

[Grouse]

Is fiscal balance some kind of holy grail?

 

UK has run a fiscal deficit of about 5% of GDP for the last 20 years.

 

So what?

[badlad]

13 hours ago, Grouse said:

All the evidence I have seen as anti Scottish and that includes this forum.

 

This best of 3 nonsense is just facile. Conditions change

 

Are You a Scot? What do you care?

 

It seems to me that the English particularly have enough bile stored up to spew over everybody. Take a little time to consider who is really responsible for this situation

would that be the british electorate?

[dlodratsab]

18 hours ago, daveAustin said:

Arrogant old sow. So many things could be said here (ungrateful and why are they're special etc), but she and those of her ilk are best ignored. Having said that, would love to see an independent Scotland, it'd be like a huge sigh of relief for everyone else, sort of like a split from an acrimonious marriage or the removal of ball&chain for a lifer on death row. 

I believe the referendum should have included all of the "dis-United  Kingdom"  and my guess is that the Scots would have got their wish by an overwhelming majority.  Then  the need for raking this over  would be over and done with, leaving the Scots to their fate, good or bad.

[Grouse]

5 minutes ago, badlad said:

would that be the british electorate?

I was quite specific in my statement.

[Grouse]

3 minutes ago, dlodratsab said:

I believe the referendum should have included all of the "dis-United  Kingdom"  and my guess is that the Scots would have got their wish by an overwhelming majority.  Then  the need for raking this over  would be over and done with, leaving the Scots to their fate, good or bad.

And the same with NI? Let's get all of Ireland to vote!

 

Self determination would seem the civilised way forward. I would like to see Westminster TRY to stop another referendum if Scots wanted that. What possible argument could there be?

[dlodratsab]

5 minutes ago, Grouse said:

And the same with NI? Let's get all of Ireland to vote!

 

Self determination would seem the civilised way forward. I would like to see Westminster TRY to stop another referendum if Scots wanted that. What possible argument could there be?

Yes....All...including the rest of the UK ....settle the issues finally and get it out of the way.

[dlodratsab]

1 hour ago, gamini said:

I hope Scotland becomes independent and I will get a Scottish passport and be able to remain a member of the EU. Hopefully Northern Ireland and Wales will do the same. Britain will be no longer be the United Kingdom and British passports will probably change from United Kingdom to simply English.

As an Englishman, I'd be content with that, if that was the wish of the majority....It would end the petty squabbles,  ...Hopefully

[TEFLKrabi]

15 hours ago, NanLaew said:

No, but an upset at Twickenham a week on Saturday would be acceptable.

How about we play the Calcutta Cup and the winner gets to decide if we vote or not. ?

[Baerboxer]

18 hours ago, Grouse said:

That's rather unpleasant 

 

And in line with so much English discourse now....

 

And very similar to the discourse from many Nationalists thats been said for some time now regarding the rest of the UK, England and unionist Scots.

 

Something the SNP wants and encourages. The more divisiveness, the more chance of swinging some votes.

 

Just another Sturgeon bit of smoke and mirrors - "see, it's not us, they're forcing us to do it". What a load of <deleted>. She's been looking for any excuse to try and force another referendum but backs off every time their winning doesn't look clear. Then comes back with another excuse whilst her party cronies in Westminster act like children to disrupt - again calculated to provoke divisiveness.

 

Maybe any future referendums on Union membership should poll all the UK electorate? She should try that because the 95% that don't live in Scotland are getting fed up with the constant whining, moaning, lies from the one small populated country that already enjoys special treatment but like any spoiled petulant child constantly demands more and more. 

 

I feel sorry for the majority of Scots who voted No and have seen that constantly ignored by the scheming Sturgeon who cares only about 2 things - her ego and her place in history.

[RuamRudy]

4 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

What a load of <deleted>. She's been looking for any excuse to try and force another referendum but backs off every time their winning doesn't look clear. Then comes back with another excuse whilst her party cronies in Westminster act like children to disrupt - again calculated to provoke divisiveness.

If her actions are as obvious as you say, I look forward to your examples of her pushing for a referendum then backing off with an excuse. You suggest that this is repeated behaviour so there must be repeated examples of this?

6 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

I feel sorry for the majority of Scots who voted No and have seen that constantly ignored by the scheming Sturgeon who cares only about 2 things - her ego and her place in history.

Where do your sympathies lie for the majority of Scots who voted to remain in the EU? Far more emphatic was our wish to remain in the EU than in the UK. 

[Baerboxer]

50 minutes ago, Grouse said:

And the same with NI? Let's get all of Ireland to vote!

 

Self determination would seem the civilised way forward. I would like to see Westminster TRY to stop another referendum if Scots wanted that. What possible argument could there be?

 

Get real Grousey.

 

NI is part of the UK. Eire isn't. UK issues aren't their business. They've enough coming down the line with the EU and corporation tax to worry about.

 

Westminster don't have to try - the law is they have to approve. The UK laws aren't for the Scottish parliament to change because the SNP can't get their own way. Who is Sturgeon to dictate to the rest of the UK? Nobody in reality. Get on with her job not the one she dreams about.

 

And if Westminster, i.e. the UK government and parliament, which includes the very over representative 53 MP's representing Scotland votes against another referendum - what ya gonna do? Cry to the EU? Cry to the ECJ? Get old Nic to nip over to the UN? 

 

Time the nationalists realized, unionists and the rest of the UK aren't going to be bullied by them,

[Baerboxer]

1 minute ago, RuamRudy said:

If her actions are as obvious as you say, I look forward to your examples of her pushing for a referendum then backing off with an excuse. You suggest that this is repeated behaviour so there must be repeated examples of this?

Where do your sympathies lie for the majority of Scots who voted to remain in the EU? Far more emphatic was our wish to remain in the EU than in the UK. 

 

Why should I have special feelings for Scots who voted to remain? As distinct from people in Ulster, England and Wales?

I voted to remain. I have to accept that the majority who voted didn't. I opposed the use of the Royal Prerogative which was unconstitutional and thankfully the courts rules according to law. I was disappointed with the parliamentary debate, the spinelessness of some MP's, the juvenile behavior of some, and the lack of representation of actual constituents views.

But I have to get on with it. Not throw my toys out the pram and declare UDI.

 

Read back to and just before Brexit and you can find lots of examples of Sturgeon announcing another ref is imminent for one reason or another. Just like she announced she could personally veto Brexit after her first meeting with May. 

[RuamRudy]

3 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

And if Westminster, i.e. the UK government and parliament, which includes the very over representative 53 MP's representing Scotland votes against another referendum - what ya gonna do? Cry to the EU? Cry to the ECJ? Get old Nic to nip over to the UN? 

 

Is it your knowledge of Westminster or your arithmetic skills that are letting you down? We don't have 53 MPs in Westminster, we have 59. If all was equal, then we would have 53.5  - so the number you quote would not be over representative. 

 

As for crying, no need to do that. We would simply use the opportunity given to us - yet another democratic outrage dished out by a Westminster government that has a sole joke representative in our country. Of course, we would exploit that to the hilt 

[Baerboxer]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

Is fiscal balance some kind of holy grail?

 

UK has run a fiscal deficit of about 5% of GDP for the last 20 years.

 

So what?

 

Its not a grail. But there are financial criteria that must be met as part of the conditions of progressing membership applications for the EU.

Should Scotland leave the UK before the UK leaves the EU, Scotland would cease to be a member of either.

[RuamRudy]

3 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Why should I have special feelings for Scots who voted to remain? As distinct from people in Ulster, England and Wales?

I voted to remain. I have to accept that the majority who voted didn't. I opposed the use of the Royal Prerogative which was unconstitutional and thankfully the courts rules according to law. I was disappointed with the parliamentary debate, the spinelessness of some MP's, the juvenile behavior of some, and the lack of representation of actual constituents views.

But I have to get on with it. Not throw my toys out the pram and declare UDI.

Nobody wants UDI and I don't recall it ever being threatened - the democratic mandate itself should lead to the optimum conclusion. 

 

4 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

Read back to and just before Brexit and you can find lots of examples of Sturgeon announcing another ref is imminent for one reason or another. Just like she announced she could personally veto Brexit after her first meeting with May. 

I guess it depends upon whether you read real news or fake news.

[Grouse]

10 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Get real Grousey.

 

NI is part of the UK. Eire isn't. UK issues aren't their business. They've enough coming down the line with the EU and corporation tax to worry about.

 

Westminster don't have to try - the law is they have to approve. The UK laws aren't for the Scottish parliament to change because the SNP can't get their own way. Who is Sturgeon to dictate to the rest of the UK? Nobody in reality. Get on with her job not the one she dreams about.

 

And if Westminster, i.e. the UK government and parliament, which includes the very over representative 53 MP's representing Scotland votes against another referendum - what ya gonna do? Cry to the EU? Cry to the ECJ? Get old Nic to nip over to the UN? 

 

Time the nationalists realized, unionists and the rest of the UK aren't going to be bullied by them,

I think you should look at the history of Ireland / NI / Eire

 

If the Scots want independence, it won't matter what law Westminster pulls out! Lets be realistic

 

We already proved that 53 MPs are NOT over representative

 

The Scots will not be bullied by Westminster, that I can promise you

[Grouse]

7 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Its not a grail. But there are financial criteria that must be met as part of the conditions of progressing membership applications for the EU.

Should Scotland leave the UK before the UK leaves the EU, Scotland would cease to be a member of either.

Scotland would easily and quickly be accepted as a member.

 

Getting the numbers correct is trivial

[nontabury]

16 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

I feel a touch of deja vu coming on...

Please show evidence of 'anti-English hatred'. Anything will do, any example welcome - I have asked this question repeatedly on TV and been left wanting each and every time.

In contrast, read through the current In Your Face Scottish independence threads and try to count the Scot bashing and compare that to the English bashing on the same thread. Then come back and whine about 'anti-English hatred'.

 

You keep on saying this. Yet the last time I answered this question from you, I did in fact give an example, and to be fair,you did acknowledge, condemning such anti English sentiment from some Scotsmen.  Why have you today forgotten?

[Baerboxer]

4 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Is it your knowledge of Westminster or your arithmetic skills that are letting you down? We don't have 53 MPs in Westminster, we have 59. If all was equal, then we would have 53.5  - so the number you quote would not be over representative. 

 

As for crying, no need to do that. We would simply use the opportunity given to us - yet another democratic outrage dished out by a Westminster government that has a sole joke representative in our country. Of course, we would exploit that to the hilt 

 

Sarcasm - the refuge of many, including those arguing for their minority view.  

 

Dyslexia actually if you're that bothered. 

 

The point is 59 is an over representation and they still get to vote on English only matters whereas Scotland runs itself.

 

Sorry how can a tiny, say 3% for the sake of argument, wanting to dictate their view and impose it on the other 97% of the population be democratic?

 

Scots Nationalists have never been interested in democracy. Just their own view, and try and try again.

[Baerboxer]

11 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Nobody wants UDI and I don't recall it ever being threatened - the democratic mandate itself should lead to the optimum conclusion. 

 

I guess it depends upon whether you read real news or fake news.

 

I guess the Guardian, Scotsman, Times, Telegraph and BBC would all be fake news to you then. 

 

Denial - more than a river in Egypt.

[RuamRudy]

6 minutes ago, nontabury said:

You keep on saying this. Yet the last time I answered this question from you, I did in fact give an example, and to be fair,you did acknowledge, condemning such anti English sentiment from some Scotsmen.  Why have you today forgotten?

You gave me an anecdotal story of a single incident that seems to have involved some idiots who may or may not have been drunk. Forgive me for doubting the ability of said idiots to foment a populist political movement that galvanised almost half the country, but until you can show me evidence that the desire for Scottish independence is driven by the hatred of English people then I will repeat my oft-stated request for credible proof.

 

I mean, if you can show me that hate crimes against the English have risen by, say, 41% since the referendum, I will accept that you are correct and that bigoted racism is behind it. Otherwise, I will continue to dispute your claims.

Edited March 1, 2017 by RuamRudy

[nontabury]

3 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Your lack of understanding of the relative contributions to the UK exchequer is woeful, but I fear that you prefer ignorance over fact. If I am wrong, however, and you would like to learn how Scottish taxpayers subsidise the majority of England, please let me know - I would be more than happy to enlighten you. 

 

I recently copied this onto a similar thread. Surprisingly, or was it, you failed to respond.

 

 

By the way, the interviewer, Andrew Neil is a fellow Scot,so no accusations of ant anti-Scot bias.

Edited March 1, 2017 by nontabury

[Baerboxer]

10 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I think you should look at the history of Ireland / NI / Eire

 

If the Scots want independence, it won't matter what law Westminster pulls out! Lets be realistic

 

We already proved that 53 MPs are NOT over representative

 

The Scots will not be bullied by Westminster, that I can promise you

 

History - maybe you should read the history of the UK and UK law,

 

Gee whiz, Scotland don't rule the rest of the UK, nor do they govern it, nor will they ignore laws when it suits them.

 

Ulster wanted to be part of the UK and the issues around that are unfortunately all too familiar.

 

Try and retain some perspective. Only a minority of Scots votes yes. Reality isn't Mel Gibson's tainted version of history. 

[RuamRudy]

5 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Sarcasm - the refuge of many, including those arguing for their minority view.  

 

Dyslexia actually if you're that bothered. 

 

The point is 59 is an over representation and they still get to vote on English only matters whereas Scotland runs itself.

 

A minority view doesn't make that wrong - but I tend to be a mirror when I respond. If you are respectful, I tend to be respectful in retort, regardless of how far apart our views may be. 

 

I agree - 59 is too many, but that is not the doing of Scots. You can probably blame labour for that, historically. I would support a reduction in numbers. As has been seen time and again, Scottish MPs carry little weight in Westminster. 

 

7 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

Sorry how can a tiny, say 3% for the sake of argument, wanting to dictate their view and impose it on the other 97% of the population be democratic?

 

Exactly - it cannot. But how can that percentage (I think it is closer to 8%) ever feel part of the democratic process when their views are never reflected in Westminster policy? Easy - take Westminster out of the picture and everyone is happy. 

[RuamRudy]

6 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

I guess the Guardian, Scotsman, Times, Telegraph and BBC would all be fake news to you then. 

 

Denial - more than a river in Egypt.

 

Well you can look at the evidence - all of them fundamentally opposed to independence since 2012. 

 

Worse than denial - not even realising that you cannot be allowed to form a balanced picture because there is a dearth of credible sources of information. 

[nontabury]

2 hours ago, gamini said:

I hope Scotland becomes independent and I will get a Scottish passport and be able to remain a member of the EU. Hopefully Northern Ireland and Wales will do the same. Britain will be no longer be the United Kingdom and British passports will probably change from United Kingdom to simply English.

 Sorry! But your confusing me,as yesterday on a thread relating to the E.U you implied that you are not even British. 

[RuamRudy]

8 minutes ago, nontabury said:

 

I recently copied this onto a similar thread. Surprisingly, or was it, you failed to respond.

 

 

Well what is your point? She faced a tough interviewer, one who is known to grill his targets, and who is known to have an extreme dislike of Scottish nationalism. She gave competent answers and acknowledged that the future is not guaranteed manna from heaven. 

 

She clearly knows her data, and responded calmly and competently despite his assertions that Scotland would be a poor man's Greece, ignoring years of stability and basing his assertions on a few years of instability in the oil market.

 

So, to go back to my opening question - what exactly would you like me to discuss?

[nontabury]

2 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

I don't accept either of those statements. Firstly, nowhere, on any thread here has anyone demonstrated anything that could be said to remotely back up the claim that Scottish independence was driven by anti-English sentiment. Even the link you gave referred to nothing other than a handful of anecdotal or one-off incidents. If that is sufficient to convince you, your burden of proof is set very low.

 

I am actually laughing at your gall to suggest that my psychobabble was anti-English. Not a great effort on your part, and very wide of the mark. I think there is no doubt that there are people who believe in English exceptionalism. I simply point out that their desire to claim that Scottish independence is actually an attempt to stick two fingers up at the English is narcissistic in the extreme. Independence is about what is best for Scotland, not about how to show disdain for the English.  

 

 

 Well not all Scotsmen agree with you.